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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jul 8 2009, 4:19am
Post #1 of 27
(2119 views)
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**What will we discuss next? Vote here.**
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The clouds have gathered, the Arkenstone has left the Mountain, and The Hobbit draws inexorably toward its conclusion in early August. The time has come to vote on the subject of our next regular discussion. Recently, batik, Curious, Darkstone, Elven, GaladrielTX, Isis, One Ringer, and Tolkien Forever offered some suggestions for your consideration, including The Silmarillion, a biography of Tolkien, Tolkien’s artwork, Roverandom, and Letters from Father Christmas. You may vote for any of these or for anything else by or about Tolkien.
For reference, these were the subjects of our previous discussions:
The Lord of the Rings (2000-2001 / 70 weeks)
The Silmarillion (2001-2002 / 28 weeks)
Unfinished Tales (2002 / 26 weeks)
The Lord of the Rings (2002-2004 / 70 weeks)
The Hobbit (2004 / 20 weeks)
“Leaf by Niggle” (2004 / 1 week)
The Silmarillion (2004-2005 / 28 weeks)
----Smith of Wootton Major (2004 / 8 weeks)
----Farmer Giles of Ham (2004 / 6 weeks)
----Selections from Blackwelder conference (2004-2005 / 15 weeks)
The Lord of the Rings (2005-2006 / 70 weeks)
----The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien (2005-2006 / 39 weeks)
----Selections from J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia (2006 / 20 weeks)
Unfinished Tales (2006 / 16 weeks)
Themes in Tolkien’s Works (2006-2007 / 16 weeks)
Illustrations of Tolkien’s Works (2007 / 16 weeks)
The Children of Húrin (2007 / 18 weeks)
The Lord of the Rings (2007-2009 / 70 weeks)
----“On Fairy-stories” (2008 / 6 weeks)
The Hobbit (2009 / 20 weeks)
The offset entries were the subjects of “secondary discussions”, slower-paced series that ran concurrently to the primary discussion topics. Nominally, there is a secondary discussion running right now, a “leader’s choice” series, but only three people signed-up to lead, and two of them had to bow out to manage other commitments. And the “On Fairy-stories” discussion last fall only just came together, with a last-minute replacement to lead one of the discussions. So for now, I think we should stick to just one topic at a time (and remember, independent “unofficial” threads are always welcome). However, I welcome arguments to the contrary!
Works previously used here in secondary discussions --which usually meant two or three threads per week-- will take less time to discuss if they are our primary focus. So if a short work gets the most votes, I think we should pair it with the most popular long work: it would be nice to have at least 20 weeks of discussion planned in advance. To that end, if you're voting for a short work, feel free to also vote for a long work, or for two or more short works.
If you vote for a biography, I encourage suggestions as to which book or books you’d like us to discuss. In my opinion, there are three good book-length biographies. The standard biography since 1977 has been Humphrey Carpenter’s J.R.R. Tolkien: A Biography. This is still the only first-rate work to cover Tolkien’s entire life in narrative form. More recently it has been supplemented by John Garth’s Tolkien and the Great War (2003), but as its title indicates, the subject is restricted to Tolkien’s early years. As a reference tool, Carpenter has been superseded by Christina Scull and Wayne Hammond’s definitive and very detailed Chronology, the first half of their two-volume J.R.R. Tolkien Companion & Guide (2006). However, that work is presented not as a continuous narrative but as a series of chronological entries – discussing it would be like discussing the “Tale of Years” from LOTR for months on end. But if that’s what you want, we’ll figure out how to make it work.
So far as I know, every other full-length Tolkien biography but one derives from Carpenter's book rather than from original research. The exception is Daniel Grotta's J.R.R. Tolkien: Architect of Middle-earth, but because Grotta was stymied by the Tolkien Estate (which was working with Carpenter), his book includes a fair number of errors.
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We're discussing The Hobbit in the Reading Room, Mar. 23 - Aug. 9. Everyone is welcome!
Join us July 6-July 12 for "A Thief in the Night".
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How to find old Reading Room discussions.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 8 2009, 4:36am
Post #2 of 27
(1970 views)
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I tend to think we should do The Silmarillion, but the last time we did it I found myself dropping out of the discussion. So I think I'll pass for now and see what other people want to do.
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Jul 8 2009, 6:38am
Post #4 of 27
(1961 views)
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The Silmarillion
Hasn't been done since I've been around & certainly, I think, the most thought provoking & 'debatable' or 'discussable' (?) of Tolkien'sa works....
The Ultimate Tolkien Trivia Quiz: http://www.proprofs.com/quiz-school/story.php?title=so-you-want-to-be-tolkien-geek
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sador
Gondolin
Jul 8 2009, 7:17am
Post #5 of 27
(1959 views)
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I would also prefer the Silmarillion.
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At least, I will have the most to contribute to such a discussion. You may decide for yourself whether that's a good thing... 
"Such a fool deserves to starve." - Bard.
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Twit
Menegroth
Jul 8 2009, 9:49am
Post #6 of 27
(1951 views)
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as I have that one.
(or Lord of the Ring, Unfinished Tales ( though I find that a little annoying as they are... well... not finished.)
or HoME no.s 1,2,10 or 12.) If you get my drift.
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a.s.
Doriath
Jul 8 2009, 11:47am
Post #7 of 27
(1961 views)
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*IF* we do a bio, I'd like Garth
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I didn't discuss Hobbit (because I rarely read it, sorry if that makes me a bad-fan) but I'll probably join in if we do the Sil (another rare read, but I "need" to know stuff about it for context, boring or not! editorial comment, sorry).
But if we decide to do a bio of some kind as a secondary, I'd love to discuss the Garth book, which has a rich subtext of the war and times, etc.
So count that as a semi-vote for Garth, if bios are in the running.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 8 2009, 1:15pm
Post #9 of 27
(1953 views)
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Bad fan, bad fan! 
I like LotR the best, but I think I learn a great deal about LotR by discussing The Hobbit. I'm not just talking about Middle-earth, I'm also talking about the evolution of Tolkien's own fiction.
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Jul 8 2009, 1:47pm
Post #10 of 27
(1957 views)
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In addition to profitable discussion of the book itself (and I wasn't around for the last one), there are now Elizabeth Whittingham's and Doug Kane's books to take into account for satellite points.
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
“On Fairy-stories” discussion 2008 – “Origins” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jul 8 2009, 2:50pm
Post #11 of 27
(1939 views)
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Although there are some introductory theological problems that need discussion.
The paleobotanist is back!
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jul 8 2009, 4:23pm
Post #12 of 27
(1927 views)
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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a.s.
Doriath
Jul 8 2009, 5:44pm
Post #13 of 27
(1950 views)
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help with "what is the Hobbit Edition that I own?" question
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I responded to your post (good point, basically, but I just read what you guys discuss about Hobbit because I haven't read it enough times to comment very helpfully).
But then I said I got my edition in 1987.
Yet looking on the web, I don't think I did. That edition (which looks like mine on the outside, in a green leatherette box) was the fifitieth anniversary edition and supposedly contains a forward or intro by Christopher Tolkien. Mine doesn't.
Yet I have a library plate in there with my married name handwritten on it, so it must be something I bought or received after 1978 (although not necessarily, I might just have slapped the library plate in an already owned book after I got married, I suppose. Another memory lost in the sands of time...).
There was a "collector's edition" in 1973, with the same ISBN: 0-395-17711-1
Is that what my copy is, anyone know? It looks like this:
Except that on my copy there is no red coloring on the illustration of the mountain as seen here, just the silver and green there. My book does have the red outline around the runes, just like that picture does.
The box that contains the book looks like this:
But I understand that's actually a picture of the 50th anniversary edition from 1987.
Is my book the 1973 "collector's edtion"? I don't see any date other than the copyright 1966, JRRTolkien
The copyright page says:
H 10 9 8 7
copyright 1966 by JRR Tolkien
All rights reserved (etc)
ISBN: 0-395-17711-1
Printed in the USA
And it's marked "Houghton Mifflin Company Boston" on the title page.
The in-text illustrations by JRRT are black and green, and there are five full color plates by JRRT. It's lovely.
I still think it's boring, though.
LOL
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.
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GaladrielTX
Dor-Lomin
Jul 8 2009, 5:58pm
Post #14 of 27
(1932 views)
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Add other works before it as needed so we can end up discussing it around Christmas. I vote for Roverandum as one of these.
Thanks for your guidance and your organizational skills, NEB!
~~~~~~~~
The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
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drogo
Menegroth
Jul 8 2009, 6:42pm
Post #15 of 27
(1944 views)
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N.E.B. alerted me to your question (I still exist, but live has been too busy to visit TORN of late!).
There actually is (shocker!) a decent Wikipedia article outlining the different editions of The Hobbit:
And it lists the 1973 Houghton Mifflin edition with green leatherette boards:
[quote]HM1973 — Houghton Mifflin Company of Boston, 1973. Forest green simulated leather boards with red and gold gilt runic inscription around the periphery in front and a stylized road-going-into-forest-in-front-of-mountains illustration in gold gilt a little above center. Matching slipcase in simulated leather with the same cover illustration on a paste-down in green, black, and yellow. Printed on heavy paper. All original illustrations from HM1938 restored, including color plates. Black-and-white illustrations printed as black-and-green, maps in black and green, and each page neatline is in green. 18 x 23.5 cm, 317 numbered pages.[/quote]
Then HM released a 50th Anniversary edition in 1987 that has the same forest green cover, essentially reissuing the 1973 one:
[quote]HM1987 — Houghton Mifflin Company of Boston, 1987. 50th Anniversary Edition. Similar in design to HM1973, but covers and slipcase are in gold instead of green, and the front cover illustration is a "50" in green. All monochrome illustrations, including maps, in gold and black instead of green and black. Color plates same as HM1973. Foreword by Christopher Tolkien describes the history of the writing and publication of The Hobbit.[/quote]
You probably have a later impression of the 1973 edition (the text itself was last changed in 1966 by Tolkien, hence that is the copyright date for both those editions. It was later renewed with the Annotated Hobbit in the 1960 I believe). The number line (HM 10 9 8 7) suggests it is a 10 printing of this 1973 edition, which would fit the period suggested by your name plate!
I believe I have a similar Hobbit at home. I do like the look of it!
Hope this helps.
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a.s.
Doriath
Jul 8 2009, 6:51pm
Post #16 of 27
(1938 views)
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Nice to see you anytime, thanks for answering so quickly.
That explains it! I have the 1973 collector's edition, a later printing probably closer to the 1978 date I got those library plates.
Yes, it's a lovely book. To look at.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Pooh began to feel a little more comfortable, because when you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Jul 8 2009, 8:53pm
Post #17 of 27
(1927 views)
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You probably have a later impression of the 1973 edition (the text itself was last changed in 1966 by Tolkien, hence that is the copyright date for both those editions. It was later renewed with the Annotated Hobbit in the 1960 I believe). The number line (HM 10 9 8 7) suggests it is a 10 printing of this 1973 edition, which would fit the period suggested by your name plate!
The correct reading of that number line would be 7th printing, not 10th. A first printing numberline tends to go 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1. Then, as each new printing is done, they remove the lower numbers. A 2nd printing has the numberline 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2, and so on.
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
“On Fairy-stories” discussion 2008 – “Origins” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Jul 8 2009, 8:54pm
Post #18 of 27
(1930 views)
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... if they did one printing per year, as is often the case, your copy would be 1979.
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
“On Fairy-stories” discussion 2008 – “Origins” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
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batik
Dor-Lomin
Jul 9 2009, 1:14am
Post #19 of 27
(1914 views)
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I've read most of this only once. The idea of an in depth discussion is very appealing!
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jul 9 2009, 7:58am
Post #20 of 27
(1908 views)
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Looks like we're heading for the Sil.
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Sorry, I've missed most of The Hobbit, for reasons best summarized by a.s. Another Bad Fan!
But it's been a while since I read The Sil, and look forward to doing it with VtF's book for reference!
The Rohirrim, by Peter Xavier Price
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Saelind
Menegroth
Jul 11 2009, 3:08am
Post #21 of 27
(1893 views)
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I throw my lot in with the Sil folks. And a nice suggestion for a secondary was posted in another thread. "The Tales Before Tolkien".
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Stuffe
Lindon
Jul 15 2009, 9:33pm
Post #24 of 27
(1870 views)
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Then I can read it again and join in :)
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 15 2009, 11:04pm
Post #25 of 27
(1889 views)
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You have until August 9th, or longer, if you've already started.//
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