Our Sponsor Sideshow Collectibles Send us News
Lord of the Rings Tolkien
Search Tolkien
Lord of The RingsTheOneRing.net - Forged By And For Fans Of JRR Tolkien
Lord of The Rings Serving Middle-Earth Since The First Age

Lord of the Rings Movie News - J.R.R. Tolkien
Do you enjoy the 100% volunteer, not for profit services of TheOneRing.net?
Consider a donation!

  Main Index   Search Posts   Who's Online   Log in
The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Reading Room:
Treebeard — 3. ‘My voice went up and sang in the sky’
First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All

visualweasel
Rohan


Apr 30 2008, 1:50pm

Post #1 of 35 (2204 views)
Shortcut
Treebeard — 3. ‘My voice went up and sang in the sky’ Can't Post

As I mentioned in my introduction on Monday, “Treebeard” is a chapter full of singing, and moreover, each of the verses represents a different type of song – just as we have Ents that seem to correspond to different types of trees, I might suggest. All of them, the songs and the trees, seem to be tinged with an undercurrent of the elegiac or nostalgic. Let’s take a closer look at the five verses in this chapter, shall we? While we’re answering questions, take a moment to tell us which of these poems you like, which you don’t, and which is your favorite?

1. “Learn now the lore of living creatures!”

This is a ‘lore’ poem, made to be recited as if one were at school (one pictures Sam standing with has hands behind his back). Moreover, it’s alliterative, not rhyming. Such verses find their source in medieval bestiaries, primarily Germanic ones, and as such (i.e., with an Anglo-Saxon antecedent), they might be best suited to Rohan. That being said, there are all sorts of ‘lore lists’ in other places as well (e.g., Hediod, Apollodorus, the Iliad, the Aeneid, the Eddas, the Mabinogion, just to name a few). Tolkien would have known all of these – and plenty more than I can think of!

In the case of the “old lists that [Treebeard] learned when [he] was young,” who made these lists? The Elves? The Ents? Or Men – since the poem adheres to a distinctly Rohirric form! We read that the Elves are the “eldest of all,” yet the Ents are “old as mountains.” Hm, hoom, weren’t mountains around before Elves? Is this mere hyperbole? (Mispronounce that word and you get another cheap pun – you’re welcome! ;) A bit further along, is “bear bee-hunter” a thinly veiled reference to Beowulf, perhaps? A bit further along still, does “ox in pasture” suggest animal husbandry? And if so, I must ask again, who made these lists – and when?

For those of you who might like to comment, is there any connection between this verse and Tolkien’s other ‘bestiary’ verses, the “Adventures in Unnatural History and Medieval Metres, Being the Freaks of Fisiologus”, with its constituent verses, “Fastitocalon” and “Iumbo”.

2. “In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the Spring”

This poem is essentially a soliloquy, chanted quietly, and touched with profound nostalgia. This poem doesn’t rhyme either, but its much more free-flowing than the previous verse. If feels as though it alliterates, but not in any systematic way. The lines are all of differing lengths, too. To me, the poem seems to undulate like a tree bending gracefully back and forth in the wind. It also makes its way from Spring to Summer to Autumn to Winter. What might that seasonal progress represent?

The landscape here is that of Beleriand. What effect is achieved by such geographical remove? For readers before 1977, most of these names would have been nothing more than that – mysterious names. After 1977, we can actually point to them on a map. In which direction(s) was Treebeard moving over the course of the poem? And what was Tolkien doing, placing Treebeard so far away, both in time and place? And it seems he was once quite an explorer! Had he retained this adventurous disposition, might he not have tracked down the Entwives? When and why did he settle down?

Do you make anything of Tolkien’s systematic reversal of the forms of each geographical name? Tasarinan becomes Nan-tasarion; Ossiriand become the Seven Rivers of Ossir; Neldoreth becomes Taur-na-neldor; and Dorthonion becomes Orod-na-Thôn. The second form of each is rarely – or never – used by Tolkien elsewhere. And Fangorn itself gets four other names in the short poem. Thoughts?

Finally, Treebeard says “the years lie thicker than the leaves” – a very evocative line. One imagines a carpet of ages and ages of fallen leaves. But Pippin said “most of the trees seem to be half covered with ragged dry leaves that have never fallen” (emphasis added). Was Treebeard merely being poetic? Or is Pippin a neat freak?

3. The Song of the Ent and Entwife

Here we have a dialogue, “an Elvish song [..,] never an Entish song.” Why didn’t the Ents create a song of their own? This one rhymes – it’s pretty impressive that Treebeard can translate an Elvish song into rhyming Westron verse, isn’t it? :) The poem also alliterates, often but inconsistently.

This poem, too, follows a seasonal pattern; however, it skips Autumn. What do you make of the seasonal pattern here? Does it relate to the one in the previous poem? And why is their no Fall? The winds also seem to be moving around, recalling the lament for Boromir a few chapters ago? A deliberate, archetypal echo? Or a failure of imagination on Tolkien’s part?

The more traditional gender roles (hunter versus gatherer) seem reversed here, don’t they? The Entwives are the explorers, the wanderers, the adventurers. The Ents are the stay-at-home dads, evidently. Why is this? The Entwife also refers to “harvest com[ing] to town” – what town? Where are they?

The Entwife concludes by singing that she’ll “look for thee, and wait for thee, until we meet again.” But did she? Or was this the Elves’ idea of what happened – or what should have happened? The Ents did look for the Entwives, according to Treebeard – at least, a bit. Why would the Ents and Entwives accept this estrangement? The Ent and Entwife both sing: “Together we will take the road that leads into the West, / And far away will find a land where both our hearts may rest.” Is this the Uttermost West? And are we meant to think that the Ents could go to Aman? Or is this an Elvish addition, projecting their own longing onto the Ents? Or is it just meant to convey a land in the west of Middle-earth?

Recalling my discussion yesterday, did you notice that the word garth makes an appearance in the poem? So I didn’t really steal it after all! :)

4. “O Orofarnë, Lassemista, Carnimírië!”

This poem is an elegy, sung softly by Bregalad, on the deaths of the beloved “rowan-trees that took root when [he] was an Enting.” It is a more complex verse, rhyming both internally and terminally (no pun intended).

Have any of you tried to determine the meanings of the rowans’ names in the first (and last) line? For those who have Parma Eldalamberon 17, Tolkien has done the job for you! Are they appropriate? For those who don’t know what they mean, how do you feel reading them here? To the hobbits, the song “seemed to lament in many tongues the fall of the trees” – is that how you feel? Is this “fall of the trees” the missing Fall from the Song of the Ent and Entwife? Or is that grasping at straws?

Is the image of the floral crown meant to foreshadow the statue at the Cross-roads? Do any of you think of that image here?

“For ever and a day” – too hackneyed? Tolkien’s versification is often criticized. Since we have a good sampling of it here, what do you think of it?

5. “We come, we come with roll of drum”

This is “a marching music [..] like solemn drums, [..] voices singing high and strong” – and it’s a martial march, at that. (Is “martial march” redundant? ;) It’s vigorous, powerful, has accompanying percussion (and ‘horns’), and it is sung – or bellowed – in chorus, making it quite a bit different that the preceding songs and a nice note to end on. It represents very well the sudden change that has come over the Ents, doesn’t it?

Does this kind of music, contrasting as it does with the gentler singing from before, strike a chord with Melkor’s music? Okay, I know that’s an awfully strange comparison to suggest, but Melkor’s theme:


Quote
had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice [..]



Not dissimilar descriptions! Thoughts?


Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish

The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2


Tolkien Forever
Gondor

Apr 30 2008, 7:55pm

Post #2 of 35 (741 views)
Shortcut
I'll Try [In reply to] Can't Post

Actually, I was wrong the other day when I said 'Treebeard' & linguistics were my two least favorite subjects in Middle-earth. I forgot Tolkien's poems, lol. Crazy

While we’re answering questions, take a moment to tell us which of these poems you like, which you don’t, and which is your favorite?

Well, I don't like many. the one that comes to mind that I do is 'The Tale of Tinuvial' that Aragorn sings to the hobbits on Weathertop.
A few that are very hard are 'The Bone he boned from his owner' & Earendil Was A Mariner' -it just goes on & on (try reading it aloud to your kids).

I find the poems in The Hobbit (songs really) to be much better by & large.


1. “Learn now the lore of living creatures!”


In the case of the “old lists that [Treebeard] learned when [he] was young,” who made these lists? The Elves? The Ents?

I always figured that the Ents did.

Or Men – since the poem adheres to a distinctly Rohirric form! We read that the Elves are the “eldest of all,” yet the Ents are “old as mountains.” Hm, hoom, weren’t mountains around before Elves?

Well, if Eru made the Dwarves sleep until the Elves awoke, & allowed spirits to enter the trees to balance Aules making of the Dwarves for Yavanna, doesn't it make sense that he would not let these Ents arise before the Elves too?

Is this mere hyperbole? (Mispronounce that word and you get another cheap pun – you’re welcome! ;) A bit further along, is “bear bee-hunter” a thinly veiled reference to Beowulf, perhaps? A bit further along still, does “ox in pasture” suggest animal husbandry? And if so, I must ask again, who made these lists – and when?

For those of you who might like to comment, is there any connection between this verse and Tolkien’s other ‘bestiary’ verses, the “Adventures in Unnatural History and Medieval Metres, Being the Freaks of Fisiologus”, with its constituent verses, “Fastitocalon” and “Iumbo”.

2. “In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the Spring”

This poem is essentially a soliloquy, chanted quietly, and touched with profound nostalgia. This poem doesn’t rhyme either, but its much more free-flowing than the previous verse. If feels as though it alliterates, but not in any systematic way. The lines are all of differing lengths, too. To me, the poem seems to undulate like a tree bending gracefully back and forth in the wind. It also makes its way from Spring to Summer to Autumn to Winter. What might that seasonal progress represent?

That's a bit much for me.


The landscape here is that of Beleriand. What effect is achieved by such geographical remove?

I believe it's the same thing as dropping in 'The Tale of Tinuvial' & 'The Great Enemy of whom Sauron of Mordor was merely a servant' & 'the incomprable hand of Feanor at work", etc. Tolkien is throwing in bits of the history of the First Age.


For readers before 1977, most of these names would have been nothing more than that – mysterious names. After 1977, we can actually point to them on a map. In which direction(s) was Treebeard moving over the course of the poem? And what was Tolkien doing, placing Treebeard so far away, both in time and place? And it seems he was once quite an explorer! Had he retained this adventurous disposition, might he not have tracked down the Entwives? When and why did he settle down?

No, I don't think he was searching for the Entwives. Thatt doesn't fit.
The Simarillion tells us the Shepards of the Trees came down & destroyed the the Dwarf army that had sacked Doriath & stolen the Silmaril. This would indicate that the Ents lived in Beleriand & were abused by the Dwarves......
In addition, Treebeard tells Merry & Pippin that the Entwives disappeared at the time of the Darkness (debateable if he meant the 2nd Age or earlier Darkness), but he says when he looked after the enemy was gone, indicating Sauron's takeover in the middle of the 2nd Age, the land was destroyed & had become the Brown Lands.


Do you make anything of Tolkien’s systematic reversal of the forms of each geographical name? Tasarinan becomes Nan-tasarion; Ossiriand become the Seven Rivers of Ossir; Neldoreth becomes Taur-na-neldor; and Dorthonion becomes Orod-na-Thôn. The second form of each is rarely – or never – used by Tolkien elsewhere. And Fangorn itself gets four other names in the short poem. Thoughts?

No, remember, Tolkien was still working on The Silmarillion when he died.


Finally, Treebeard says “the years lie thicker than the leaves” – a very evocative line. One imagines a carpet of ages and ages of fallen leaves. But Pippin said “most of the trees seem to be half covered with ragged dry leaves that have never fallen” (emphasis added). Was Treebeard merely being poetic? Or is Pippin a neat freak?

What else is a Treeman going to make a metaphor uo about? Firewood? Wink


3. The Song of the Ent and Entwife

Here we have a dialogue, “an Elvish song [.,] never an Entish song.” Why didn’t the Ents create a song of their own? This one rhymes – it’s pretty impressive that Treebeard can translate an Elvish song into rhyming Westron verse, isn’t it? :)

It seems to be a common gift in Middle-earth.

The poem also alliterates, often but inconsistently.

This poem, too, follows a seasonal pattern; however, it skips Autumn. What do you make of the seasonal pattern here? Does it relate to the one in the previous poem? And why is their no Fall? The winds also seem to be moving around, recalling the lament for Boromir a few chapters ago? A deliberate, archetypal echo? Or a failure of imagination on Tolkien’s part?

The more traditional gender roles (hunter versus gatherer) seem reversed here, don’t they? The Entwives are the explorers, the wanderers, the adventurers. The Ents are the stay-at-home dads, evidently. Why is this? The Entwife also refers to “harvest com[ing] to town” – what town? Where are they?

The Entwife concludes by singing that she’ll “look for thee, and wait for thee, until we meet again.” But did she? Or was this the Elves’ idea of what happened – or what should have happened? The Ents did look for the Entwives, according to Treebeard – at least, a bit. Why would the Ents and Entwives accept this estrangement? The Ent and Entwife both sing: “Together we will take the road that leads into the West, / And far away will find a land where both our hearts may rest.” Is this the Uttermost West? And are we meant to think that the Ents could go to Aman? Or is this an Elvish addition, projecting their own longing onto the Ents? Or is it just meant to convey a land in the west of Middle-earth?

Recalling my discussion yesterday, did you notice that the word garth makes an appearance in the poem? So I didn’t really steal it after all! :)

4. “O Orofarnë, Lassemista, Carnimírië!”

This poem is an elegy,

You lost me here.....

sung softly by Bregalad, on the deaths of the beloved “rowan-trees that took root when [he] was an Enting.” It is a more complex verse, rhyming both internally and terminally (no pun intended).

Have any of you tried to determine the meanings of the rowans’ names in the first (and last) line? For those who have Parma Eldalamberon 17, Tolkien has done the job for you! Are they appropriate? For those who don’t know what they mean, how do you feel reading them here? To the hobbits, the song “seemed to lament in many tongues the fall of the trees” – is that how you feel? Is this “fall of the trees” the missing Fall from the Song of the Ent and Entwife? Or is that grasping at straws?

Give me one of those straws you're grasping for - I need it for my milkshake.


Is the image of the floral crown meant to foreshadow the statue at the Cross-roads? Do any of you think of that image here?

I doubt it.
How could a first time reader foreshadow something?


“For ever and a day” – too hackneyed? Tolkien’s versification is often criticized. Since we have a good sampling of it here, what do you think of it?

5. “We come, we come with roll of drum”

This is “a marching music [.] like solemn drums, [.] voices singing high and strong” – and it’s a martial march, at that. (Is “martial march” redundant? ;) It’s vigorous, powerful, has accompanying percussion (and ‘horns’), and it is sung – or bellowed – in chorus, making it quite a bit different that the preceding songs and a nice note to end on. It represents very well the sudden change that has come over the Ents, doesn’t it?

Does this kind of music, contrasting as it does with the gentler singing from before, strike a chord with Melkor’s music? Okay, I know that’s an awfully strange comparison to suggest, but Melkor’s theme:


Quote
had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice [.]



Not dissimilar descriptions! Thoughts?


No, this seems more like the difference between - bear with me hear, but I'm going to speak in musical tones that I know......

When the Grateful Dead (or Phil Lesh & Freinds) played space, it was discordanent, striving against each other......Melkor.
So bad to some (like my son) that they cover their ears.

The Ent's music is in tune & sent in power to spur them on. Probably has a 'majesty' to it, like modern Christian worship music that catches a wave of the spirit.





Menelwyn
Rohan


May 1 2008, 12:15am

Post #3 of 35 (732 views)
Shortcut
A few answers [In reply to] Can't Post

Not that I'm going to take on all of this. But here are some of my thoughts.

2. “In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the Spring”
The geographical question is interesting. The references to places in Beleriand, which first-time readers of LOTR will not know, create that deep sense of time that Tolkien likes to develop by historical references. We get a sense of just how old Treebeard really is, if he's remembering these places from the far past that no one seems to know now.

From my map of Beleriand, Tasarinan seems to be sort of in the south-west. Ossiriand is in the east, Neldoreth more or less in the center (north-west of Ossiriand), in Doriath; and Dorthonion is due north of that, not far from Gondolin. I'm not sure I see any significant progression there, although it is interesting to note who else was living nearby. In Tasarinan, there doesn't seem to be any significant settlement from other races (although apparently the refugees from the fall of Gondolin ended up there temporarily). Green-Elves might be found in Ossiriand. Clearly there were Sindar in Neldoreth, which is right in the middle of Thingol's kingdom, and as noted, Dorthonion is close to Gondolin, home of Noldorin Elves. So that's an interesting progression, I suppose.

I figure the multiple names have something to do with that Entish penchant for wanting very precise names to things. So in "hasty" languages, including Elvish, the Ents would prefer to have multiple names, even if they more or less mean the same thing. A similar thing goes for the multiple names of Fangorn.

I don't know what to make of the contradiction you mention about the leaves, but I do note that this isn't the first time we've had a parallel of leaves and time; Galadriel used leaves as an image for the passage of time as well.

5. “We come, we come with roll of drum”
I like this one; it somehow captures what I think it would feel like if trees went to war. (The Tolkien Ensemble's recording of it is great!) As for your comparison to Melkor's music, well, I'll continue the quote you began to cite: "...but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern." Eru's music may have a martial element as well, and even Melkor's noise becomes part of the greater symphony. And if the Music represents the pattern of events, then Saruman's victories up until the arrival of the Ents may be among those "triumphant notes" of Melkor's that will get worked into a greater harmony by the war of the Ents.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


May 1 2008, 2:37am

Post #4 of 35 (743 views)
Shortcut
"And the days dwindle down, to a precious few: September... November" [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
It also makes its way from Spring to Summer to Autumn to Winter. What might that seasonal progress represent
That's a bit much for me.


Do you think Walter Huston would have done a good job performing "In the willow-meads of Tasarinan"?

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Apr. 28-May 4 for "Treebeard".


Elenedhel
Rivendell


May 1 2008, 4:46am

Post #5 of 35 (692 views)
Shortcut
ooh I loove the songs in this chapter! [In reply to] Can't Post

ok, here goes...
1. You are right! This song sounds a lot like the songs we here in Rohan! The Elves and Dwarves both have rhyming songs, so you are right that it was probably written by men, but the Ents have both rhyming and free verse songs, so maybe it could have been written by the Ents? Plus, the majority of men don't even know that the Ents exist, so that would pose some questions about the line "Ent the earth-born, old as mountains."
As for "eldest of all," it's probably one of those questions that will never be answered (kind of like "whose older? Treebeard or Tom Bombadil?"). According to The Silmarillion, Elves were the first created, Dwarves second, and Men third. But the Elves were first in Valinor, and who knows? Maybe the Ents were first in Middle-earth.

2. Maybe Treebeard enjoyed going to places in Beleriand when he was younger but as he got older, just didn't feel up to traveling very far away. Or maybe it was the only place that he really enjoyed going to outside Fangorn, and once it was destroyed, just couldn't find anywhere quite like it.
Hmmm... that "years lie thicker than the leaves" is tricky... I have a theory, but I don't know if I can really explain it. Ok let's see: Those last two lines, "And the years lie thicker than the leaves in Tauremornalome" could be read two ways: "the years lie thicker than the leaves" could be read metaphorically, in which case it could refer to the leaves in any forest, and simply the years lie thick in Fangorn. Or it could be read as a description: the years lie thick like the leaves in Fagorn. Does that make sense?Crazy

3. Well, I've never heard of Ents passing into the West, but who knows?Wink

4.This is probably my favorite song in the whole chapter. You're right, this song does remind me of the statue at the cross-roads. That image had never popped into my mind until you mentioned it, but now that you did, it also reminds me of the image in Gimli's song about Moria: "The world is grey, the mountains old, the forges fire is ashen-cold. No harp is wrung, no hammer falls, the darkness dwells in Durin's halls. The shadow lies upon his tomb, in Moria in Khazad-dum. But still the sunken stars appear in dark and windless Mirrormere. There lies his crown in water deep till Durin wakes again from sleep."

5. This is another of my favorite songs. For me it creates a thrill of excitement that the Ents are going to get Saruman every time I read it.

"O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!
We still remember, we who dwell
In this far land beneath the trees,
Thy starlight on the Western Seas."




Tolkien Forever
Gondor

May 1 2008, 6:05am

Post #6 of 35 (722 views)
Shortcut
Don't get it [In reply to] Can't Post

My point was that it was a bit much for me to understand the whole paragraphical gist of what Visualweasal was getting into - it went on for quite a bit....

And, too long a paragraph for me to want to figger out.

That's all

No big thing.


visualweasel
Rohan


May 1 2008, 1:59pm

Post #7 of 35 (661 views)
Shortcut
A-lalla-lalla-literation-rumba-rumba-rhyme? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
My point was that it was a bit much for me to understand the whole paragraphical gist of what Visualweasal was getting into - it went on for quite a bit....



I've never been known to be short-winded. Wink

Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish

The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3


Canto
Bree


May 1 2008, 2:29pm

Post #8 of 35 (671 views)
Shortcut
Some thoughts. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
1. “Learn now the lore of living creatures!”

The poem may adhere to a distinctly Rohirric form, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it was composed by Men, does it? I, for one, could compose a poem in the form of e.e. cummings even though I'm not e.e. cummings. In fact, isn't it a typical exercise in poetry classes to produce poems using previously successful styles, techniques, etc.? I tend to think that this poem was composed first by Yavanna. Treebeard does say that he learned the poem "when I was young." With his having said this, I don't know how the poem could have been composed by anyone else? The first verse resounds of "history lesson," the sort of lesson which a mother would instill into her children to help them function in the world. The author of the poem also seems to refer to all creatures in a rather detached but knowledgable third-person manner.

In Reply To
2. “In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the Spring”



The conversation preceding this song is where Treebeard informs the hobbits that Fangorn was all one wood "From here...to the Mountains of Lune." Within this context, such a song, or poem, comes across more as a lament not just for days gone by but for the limited region within which Treebeard and the Ents now have to operate. Is Treebeard lamenting de-forestation? I think so.




In Reply To
5. “We come, we come with roll of drum”


I've always liked this song. I've always imagined it being performed by an army choir with the rolling snares, chimes, and a monstrous sound. As to your question about Melkor - I've always imagined the difference in the Music being something like the difference between classically composed music where the arrangement bears where tonal, harmonic sounds are organized are ordered time, using unvarying an tempo and time signature versus composed music which is atonal, unmelodic, and using changes in intensity, register and density of scoring as the motives to propel the music forward. It is the difference then between, say, Bach and Iannis Xenakis. To that end, I don't quite see the link between the martial march of the Ents and Melkor's own avant-garde aside from the strength and intensity of the song - but doesn't this strength resound from and for a different purpose? The Ents' song is organized and seemingly bears qualities of what many would consider properly composed music, whereas Melkor's song is belligerent and noisy. To quote the great American composer Morton Feldman, "Noise...does not travel on these distant seas of experience. It bores like granite into granite." and "Noise is a word of which the aural image is all too evasive."




(This post was edited by Chryses on May 1 2008, 2:29pm)


Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea


May 1 2008, 2:51pm

Post #9 of 35 (642 views)
Shortcut
thoughts on musical thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

Chryses, you very clearly laid out the distinction between the song of the Ents marching to Isengard and the discordant theme of Melkor. "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" might be analogous to the Ents' song. I don't know that Melkor's theme was unmelodic or unorganized, though I hear what you're saying about experimental atonal music. I just don't think he'd get many followers with that kind of song. I see it more as kind of a thrash metal or even a hard-core rap piece: something with a heavy beat and a lot of screaming. Not that I'm calling those things "the devil's music", but they could be used that way.

Where's Frodo?


Dreamdeer
Valinor


May 1 2008, 3:09pm

Post #10 of 35 (636 views)
Shortcut
Brilliant! [In reply to] Can't Post

What a perfect idea--Yavanna taught him! That would explain including cattle and such--because Yavanna invented agriculture and knew what would lie ahead.

And why not include hobbits? Because I believe hobbits were a much later inspiration, bred by the powers that be as an unexpected answer to Sauron (Here deleting lengthy section from my fanfic which, in my pride, I had almost imposed upon you.)

Regarding the similarity in descriptions between Melkor's music and that of the Ents, I recall that Illuvatar took up Melkor's themes and turned them against him.

My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.


Canto
Bree


May 1 2008, 3:09pm

Post #11 of 35 (642 views)
Shortcut
Not all that clear actually! [In reply to] Can't Post

In Reply To
Chryses, you very clearly laid out the distinction between the song of the Ents marching to Isengard and the discordant theme of Melkor.

Some bad grammar (and many missing words) on my part as I was in a rush to finish my thoughts before diving into some work here at the office!!!. Allow me to revise my statement:

I've always liked this song. I've always imagined it being performed by an army choir with the rolling snares, chimes, and a monstrous sound.

As to your question about Melkor - I've always imagined the difference in the Music being something like the difference between classically composed music where the arrangement bears tonal, harmonic sounds which are organized and ordered in time, using an unvarying tempo and time signature versus composed music which is atonal, unmelodic, and using changes in intensity, register and density of scoring as the motives to propel the music forward. It is the difference then between, say, Bach and Iannis Xenakis. To that end, I don't quite see the link between the martial march of the Ents and Melkor's own avant-garde aside from the strength and intensity of the song - but doesn't this strength resound from and for a different purpose? The Ents' song is organized and seemingly bears qualities of what many would consider properly composed music, whereas Melkor's song is belligerent and noisy. To quote the great American composer Morton Feldman, "Noise...does not travel on these distant seas of experience. It bores like granite into granite." and "Noise is a word of which the aural image is all too evasive."


(This post was edited by Chryses on May 1 2008, 3:10pm)


Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


May 1 2008, 7:31pm

Post #12 of 35 (637 views)
Shortcut
Long paragraphs [In reply to] Can't Post

are pretty much the culture here in the RR.

It seems to me a little rude to come into a room where people are enjoying conversation and keep saying "You guys are so boring." I've noticed several posts from you recently along those lines.

I for one enjoy the conversations here. If you don't, the nice thing about written conversations is you can discreetly not read the entire thing. But it's pretty rude to tell people that's what you're doing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


May 1 2008, 7:34pm

Post #13 of 35 (638 views)
Shortcut
How about a link to that "lengthy section"? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Tolkien Forever
Gondor

May 1 2008, 8:32pm

Post #14 of 35 (641 views)
Shortcut
Sorry [In reply to] Can't Post

I wasn't trying to be rude, I was merely making the point that I could not carry through the entire paragraph and follow the thought out to conclusion because it went on so long - but that's just me when I'm presented with a subject that does not hold my interest - it was not intended in the least to be insulting and I am really quite sincerely sorry that you took it that way because I am sure that Visualweasal saw that I was surely joking since he himself has made several jokes about my rather likehearted attempt to respond to his line of detailed, in-depth, Tolkien-Scholarly analysis of the chapter entitled 'Treebeard', which I have clearly documented as my least favorite chapter (or should I even go as far as to say the one chapter I even dislike?), in all of the Lord of the Rings Triology if not not in all the works that John Ronald Ruell Tolkien, the great writer of the Twentieth Century, if not all centuries, created in his six and one half decades of masterful work on the subject of his wonderful place of Middle-earth, the fantasy world which has such a deep history invented by this author that it often seems quite real and indeed alive to it's most ardent readers.

Cool


Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


May 1 2008, 9:23pm

Post #15 of 35 (633 views)
Shortcut
Wow, that's the longest sentence I've seen [In reply to] Can't Post

outside Winnie-the-Pooh ;-)

All I can say about Visualweasel is that he's a gentleman and a scholar, something all of us can aspire to be, even us old ladies.

Here's the Pooh sentence:

You can imagine Piglet's joy when at last the ship came
in sight of him. In after-years he liked to think that he had
been in Very Great Danger during the Terrible Flood, but the
only danger he had really been in was the last half-hour of his
imprisonment, when Owl, who had just flown up, sat on a branch
of his tree to comfort him, and told him a very long story
about an aunt who had once laid a seagull's egg by mistake, and
the story went on and on, rather like this sentence, until
Piglet who was listening out of his window without much hope,
went to sleep quietly and naturally, slipping slowly out of the
window towards the water until he was only hanging on by his
toes, at which moment, luckily, a sudden loud squawk from Owl,
which was really part of the story, being what his aunt said,
woke the Piglet up and just gave him time to jerk himself back
into safety and say, "How interesting, and did she?" when --
well, you can imagine his joy when at last he saw the good
ship, Brain of Pooh (Captain, C. Robin; Ist Mate, P. Bear)
coming over the sea to rescue him..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



visualweasel
Rohan


May 1 2008, 9:45pm

Post #16 of 35 (617 views)
Shortcut
“... the story went on and on, rather like this sentence ...” [In reply to] Can't Post

Classic! Wink

Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish

The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4


a.s.
Valinor


May 1 2008, 11:45pm

Post #17 of 35 (608 views)
Shortcut
The psalmist Treebeard: "We wept, when we remembered Tasarinan" [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
1. “Learn now the lore of living creatures!”




ENTS made the list. It's an Ent-cultural gnomic verse, they made it for themselves and their Entings.

The Tolkien Society's "Anglo Saxon Study Pack" has an explanation of Gnomic Verses:

The Anglo-Saxon Gnomic Verses set out wise sayings or 'lore' . 'Gnomic' means wisdom and the verses reveal interesting things about the society and the world view of the people who made them. Although the verses do not rhyme, they have a distinct rhythm which makes them memorable. This was a common function of 'poetry' in ancient times: the rhythms helped people to remember important information.

The Verses include weather and animal lore as well as political and religious aphorisms. They begin Cyning sceal rice healdan [The king must rule the kingdom]. By line 5 they have taken on exactly the form and the rhythm which Tolkien uses for Treebeard's List:

Winter byð cealdost [winter is coldest]
Lenten hrimigost [spring/Lent frostiest]
Sumor sunwlitegost [summer is sunniest]
At line 16 the rhymes describe the activities appropriate to animals:
Hafuc sceal on glofe
Wilde gewunian; wulf sceal on bearowe,
Earm anhaga; eofor sceal on holte
toðmaegenes trum.
[the hawk must remain wild on the glove; the wolf must live alone, wretched in the wood, the strong-tusked boar must in the forest.]

The rhythms make these Verses easier to remember, like the Rhymes of Lore. The Verses preserve ideas that were important to Anglo-Saxon society, just as Gandalf's and Treebeard's Rhymes preserve things they need to recall. See The Two Towers, Book 3 Chapter III and Chapter XI.



Quote
2. “In the willow-meads of Tasarinan I walked in the Spring”




I don't, of course, think this poem literally resembles Psalm 137 (although there are willows in that psalm, too) but it has some of the sadness of the psalm, of being forcefully uprooted (no pun intended) from home and longing for it again. The rhythm of the verses also reminds me of psalms, at least the translation of the psalms I read in English. There isn't a "sad" word in these verses, no "oh I miss those days so much". The impression of loss and regret comes in the telling of the sad story itself, and probably tone of voice, etc.



Quote
To me, the poem seems to undulate like a tree bending gracefully back and forth in the wind. It also makes its way from Spring to Summer to Autumn to Winter. What might that seasonal progress represent?




Well, that's the normal progression of life for trees. Note in the poem there is nothing bad mentioned about winter: it's as beautiful and beloved as the other three seasons. Other animate living things, however (I mean, "other than Ents") use the metaphor of life-death-rebirth in a spiritual or religious way, and perhaps an Ent could or would be able to understand that, but in such a non-obvious way. A pine tree probably wouldn't think of winter as an allegory for death the same way a human would, I think. Perhaps it would take an Ent a while to think about seasonal changes as metaphors for life-death-afterlife.

a.s.

"an seileachan"



"It doesn't happen all at once," said the Skin Horse. "You become. It takes a long time. That's why it doesn't happen often to people who break easily, or have sharp edges, or who have to be carefully kept. Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand."

"I suppose you are real?" said the Rabbit. And then he wished he had not said it, for he thought the Skin Horse might be sensitive.

But the Skin Horse only smiled.



Tolkien Forever
Gondor

May 2 2008, 1:10am

Post #18 of 35 (617 views)
Shortcut
I try [In reply to] Can't Post

Wow, that's the longest sentence I've seen by Aunt Dora Baggins


Yeah, I was trying to be as long winded as I could be - and that's saying something.

All kidding aside, I really just am a bit of a joker (to say the least) & try not to take me to seriously - I certainly don't. Smile


Dreamdeer
Valinor


May 2 2008, 1:44am

Post #19 of 35 (604 views)
Shortcut
I'm flattered! [In reply to] Can't Post

Ask and ye shall receive! I hope the setting doesn't seem too out of context. The origin of hobbits covers two chapters (or rather, a chapter and a half) but you can get the gist of the plan in the first one, linked here: http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com/...frodogardner028.html The story-within-a-story starts about halfway down, with the paragraph beginning,

"'I told you, Fangorn, did I not, about my departure from the flesh, after the battle with the Balrog?

My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.


N.E. Brigand
Half-elven


May 2 2008, 5:40am

Post #20 of 35 (612 views)
Shortcut
Who needs "Parma Eldalamberon"? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Have any of you tried to determine the meanings of the rowans’ names in the first (and last) line? For those who have Parma Eldalamberon 17, Tolkien has done the job for you!


See also Letter #168.

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Apr. 28-May 4 for "Treebeard".


Finding Frodo
Tol Eressea


May 2 2008, 5:54am

Post #21 of 35 (566 views)
Shortcut
Could you grate some onto my pasta?// [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Where's Frodo?


sador
Half-elven

May 2 2008, 8:48am

Post #22 of 35 (621 views)
Shortcut
You don't know your Joyce, do you? [In reply to] Can't Post

But even if I could dig 'Ulysses' out, I won't copy the last chapter here...

"I'm not going to do anything with you: not if by that you mean 'do something to you' without your leave. We might do some things together" - Treebeard


weaver
Half-elven

May 2 2008, 12:59pm

Post #23 of 35 (553 views)
Shortcut
Hey don't make fun of my hometown! [In reply to] Can't Post

Which is not to say that this particular phrase does not conjure up images of an Elven Hero in white socks and a bowling shirt...

Weaver



Aunt Dora Baggins
Half-elven


May 2 2008, 7:22pm

Post #24 of 35 (587 views)
Shortcut
As the string said to the bartender in the old joke [In reply to] Can't Post

'Fraid not. ;-)

[Aren't you that string I threw out last week?
Nope. Frayed Knot.]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories

leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Dreamdeer
Valinor


May 2 2008, 8:50pm

Post #25 of 35 (574 views)
Shortcut
Single sentence chapters [In reply to] Can't Post

There's also a single-sentence chapter in Roger Zelazny's book, "Damnation Alley." It's actually one of the most poignant parts of the book.

My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.

First page Previous page 1 2 Next page Last page  View All
 
 

Search for (options) Powered by Gossamer Forum v.1.2.3

home | advertising | contact us | back to top | search news | join list | Content Rating

This site is maintained and updated by fans of The Lord of the Rings, and is in no way affiliated with Tolkien Enterprises or the Tolkien Estate. We in no way claim the artwork displayed to be our own. Copyrights and trademarks for the books, films, articles, and other promotional materials are held by their respective owners and their use is allowed under the fair use clause of the Copyright Law. Design and original photography however are copyright © 1999-2012 TheOneRing.net. Binary hosting provided by Nexcess.net

Do not follow this link, or your host will be blocked from this site. This is a spider trap.