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RandomSilvanElf
Lindon
May 15 2014, 7:22am
Post #101 of 219
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I had the same in my mind. I also don't think that Thranduil needs anyone's help to make the right choices. But I wonder what his motivation will be in the movies - a word of approaching army? Plead from Laketown? In the book, there was that lovely development of events: that he went to grab unattended treasure, but seeing the tragedy of Lake People, he gives away from his own wealth and supplies to help them, which shows his philanthropic side and that although he doesn't like to risk his minions lives for anyone, he is not indifferent to suffering in other lands (in the end he doesn't even get that much treasure from the whole business LOL). I badly need a scene between Bard and Elvenking, While watching DOS again I developed a great admiration for descendant of Girion and want to see their cooperation. They will make an interesting team.
"At this time therefore the Sindar were well-armed, and they drove off an creatures of evil, and had peace again; but Thingol's armouries were stored with axes and with spears and swords, and tall helms, and long coats of bright mail (...) And that proved well for Thingol in the time that was to come…"
More of my opinionated scribbles
http://betweenfictionandreality.wordpress.com
https://twitter.com/Elisabetta8i8
Follow me as I re-read my way through Silmarillion, Unfinished tales, Hobbit, Lord of the Rings and everything else I can get my hands on.
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Nerven
Ossiriand
May 15 2014, 10:07am
Post #102 of 219
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Totally agreed. I need to reread UT to refresh my memory about Galadriel, but yes, she is a stateswomen in Elvendom. And I can't see her as being totally GOOD, if you know what I mean. I wonder too if Celebrian's marriage might not have an element of political capital in it.
I donīt share this view on Galadriel. I agree she is a stateswomen and political arranged but at the same time she can be totally good, one might disagree because of her exile, but I donīt know how her wish to leave Aman and to rule makes her a stained person (she never hurted anyone and never did use force), her only crime so to speak would be defying the Valar in going to ME, but that is another story, the problems of the Valar with independent elves, I really love the Valar but IMHO sometimes they just overact, all the ban thing and the exile.
Regading Galadriel arranging her daughters marriage, Elves only marry because of love there are no convenience marriages, so there is no way she urged her own daughter in a marriage if she wasnīt sure Elrond is the right person for her.
(This post was edited by Nerven on May 15 2014, 10:08am)
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Kerewyn
Nargothrond
May 15 2014, 11:28am
Post #103 of 219
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So many posts since I last checked in three hours ago :) I've just come home to 'The Fall' waiting for me in the post, courtesy of Quickflix (Australia's Netflix) So so eager to watch but my next free time is ... drat...Monday evening, due to being out of town this weekend.
Anyway, now to reading back.
Just been watching the latest Game of Thrones episode. Anyone else admiring young King Toman's thorny crown?
'People don't know where I begin and latex ends, which has always been an ambition for me.' (Martin Freeman)
(This post was edited by Kerewyn on May 15 2014, 11:30am)
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Kerewyn
Nargothrond
May 15 2014, 1:10pm
Post #104 of 219
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But this forest belongs to no-one. So similarly, (or maybe originally) Greenwood/Mirkwood is old, old - Thranduil doesn't control it, but lives in kind of a symbiotic relationship with it. So many things would pass through the forest - and I don't think it's ever spelled out, exactly what powers Thranduil has - can he communicate with creatures like Radagast? Does Thranduil "feel" the very land and trees themselves? Thranduil can evidently send a kind of spirit of himself out, to watch.
It's nicely coincidental that the forest should come under discussion today. This morning over breakfast I was poring over the DoS Art & Design Chronicles, in particular Weta designer Gus Hunter's concept paintings for Mirkwood.
There are eleven pages worth of them and they are so eerie, so spooky, so ...'mirksome'. It's a while since I saw DoS and I don't own it yet, so can't pause and compare the intensity of the concept against the intensity of the final set. But let's just say that I became deeply moved by the rot and decay and twisting fungal-infested mirkyness. How would it be, to be an elf spending years, centuries, in a homeland that has gone from lush greeness to what it is now? Wouldn't it just break your heart? My heart breaks to consider it.
And it puts a spin on that notion of Thranduil's symbiotic relationship with the forest. We've spoken of the corruption of the forest possibly becoming a corruption of Thanduil himself - a sort of soul pollution. But I instead imagine a great sadness coming from this change, and from this, a bitterness developing, in spite of any struggle to the contrary. It is like two great beings sliding into a sort of depression together. So if, as you say, Thranduil can feel the land and trees, he must be feeling terrible a lot of the time, and you can't blame him for being grumpy. Powerful - yet helpless to bring the green back to the forest, because ultimately he can't control it. Does this mean it controls him instead? And their home must have been so deeply rooted there (pun intended) to not want to up and leave for healthier grounds. I wonder if Thranduil had tried anything at all, any elf magic, any spiritual projection of sorts, to try to heal the place, much as Radagast tries to heal the animals that fall sick. Maybe he was relying on a faith that things could turn, the world would come right, the canopy would not be the only place where leaves are seen.
I looked at the pictures again and thought 'how could he keep his people in such a place?' But it must be loved, or was once loved so deeply they could not turn their back on it.. this great organism that has let hem settle and given them shelter. Then I remembered a train trip back in 1997, travelling through a very polluted area in Eastern Europe - the grey landscape had been devastated, nothing was growing, I think there'd been some fallout from Chenobyl. There were ugly dark little townships trying to eke out a living on the edge of a massive mine that threatened to swallow them whole. I said to my Czech friend who was with me "Why don't these people move away? Why do they continue to live here?" His reply was "because they've always lived here, for many many generations. No matter what it looks like, it is their home."
An observation: in our world, decay often merely means 'aging', and something of ancientness can easily be accepted as withered and dry.
In ME, elves of great age retain their immaculate beauty. Wisdom is then reflected as outer beauty....(wizards aside) while something twisted, warped and ugly represents corruption - not only Mirkwood, but Theoden while under the influence, and the entire races of orcs and goblins.
I suppose it's an easy and often-used symbolism (one that Oscar Wilde turned on its head with Dorian Grey)
'People don't know where I begin and latex ends, which has always been an ambition for me.' (Martin Freeman)
(This post was edited by Kerewyn on May 15 2014, 1:14pm)
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Kerewyn
Nargothrond
May 15 2014, 2:02pm
Post #105 of 219
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Fanfic nerves (sidestepping into my own little tale)
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Wow. Thank you for sharing all that! I felt compelled to reply, for I know completely what it feels like to have LOTR suddenly and wildly rock your world. To think this great work had been around all my life, and I was introduced to it through the medium of film! (And being a NZer living abroad, it made me very homesick for the place. LOTR was indirectly responsible for me striving to visit my family more ofen, bringing us closer.)
Actually, Dad tried to read The Hobbit to us as kids, but aged 10, my head was too full of Enid Blyton's Faraway Tree characters and I did not like dwarves, so poor Bilbo barely got out the door before Dad perceived us falling asleep on him. He switched to Watership Down and Wind in the Willows, both which had more success. We must have preferred animal adventures.
When I discovered the depth of Tolkien's world, there was so so much, almost too much - I had just started studying part time while working full time (AND moving house) and there was regretfully so little spare time. I joined TORn and learnt much here - putting any spare energy into participating in the weekly scene discussions etc. And I discovered fanfic and read a fair bit, and wanted to write my own but had so little time to do my own research. And without the research, I didn't feel I had the confidence. Even today, I am often distracted, my job makes me multi-task so much at such speed that I think I've lost the ability to sit and reflect deeply, and write from a long train of thought. This is a great pity for the writer in me, and I'm trying to address it (eg taking part in Nanowrimo)
So I am quite full of admiration for what you seem to have achieved. I mean, you felt it and you did it! even if you have not for a while. In fact, I did write two shortish pieces (as in, not chaptered). Both are quite simple in writing style, and both are Pippin-centric. There was a load of hobbity fanfic that I used to love, was almost obsessed with, and there was a certain style which I found myself emulating. I put one on fanfiction.net, the other one (probably the slightly better one) has never made it outside of my hard drive. I couldn't think of a good title for it - but that's just an excuse. I need to get over this fear of sharing. There are plenty of badly written stories out there, and mine would probably be enjoyed by a tiny handful of readers. I must be nervous about getting feedback - or NO feedback.
Anyway, am quite intrigued by your Hunt for Gollum theme. And you also mention the Grima perspective on him and Eowyn - I am so not judging you there because I have written on the same, though mine was merely a drabble.
Can't wait to see your art! I am feeling a growing itch to do something too. But my past history of doodling in circles tells me I need some education if I want to "grow" in this area. So I am looking for lessons that I can take. I just don't fancy having to sit at tiny tables and chairs along with toddlers... even worse for this thrall's ego to witness them create effortlessly. It's definitely a minefield to be negotiated with care. And yes, find the time. 
I went to art school once, centuries ago. I mention that reluctantly, in relation to having a go at fan art, because it implies that I have some sort of drawing talent. Having focused on photography and rather abstract print-making, not really. I have such deep envy of illustrators - that's the kind of artistry I WISH I had. I can generally copy stuff - such as my icon, a drink coaster I painted. (actually, I traced it ) But I'd get more satisfaction out of being original.
Now, 'nuff about me - back to our regular Thanduil programming...
'People don't know where I begin and latex ends, which has always been an ambition for me.' (Martin Freeman)
(This post was edited by Kerewyn on May 15 2014, 2:15pm)
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Eruvandi
Dor-Lomin
May 15 2014, 9:52pm
Post #106 of 219
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Just going by how Galadriel seemed to be able to mindspeak with Elrond and Gandalf, I'll take a leap and say Thranduil and Radagast might have some similar arrangements, if they were acquainted. But Radagast didn't seem to be bother much about the higher races of Eru's children, and Thranduil didn't seem to mind being in isolation. Though it does bother me that with both of them essentially sharing the same neighbourhood if they really had nothing to do with each other. Especially if Thranduil does his projection thing... encounters on the third plane?  Given how they live so close together, it does seem odd that Thranduil and Radagast don't seem to interact at all. Of course, their so different, with Thranduil being so fabulous and Radagast being so...so...eccentric?...I can't help but imagine any interactions between the two being highly awkward. Kind of like this. 
As for word getting out. The most obvious would be to the South. But aside from the spiders getting a line into the Halls (and I wouldn't trust their ability to convey a clear message of the quality Dol Guldur is looking for), prolly the likelier source of info would be some poor Mirkwood sod whose soul has been sold. I think that any word that gets to Rivendell would be leaked by the Necromancer. Unless Elrond has a proxy in place as well. Or maybe his info conduit flows via Lothlorien. When I read The Hobbit, I got the impression that nobody was going into Mirkwood with it being as corrupted and dangerous as it was at that point. IIRC, even Gandalf hadn't been in there recently enough to know that the road he told the dwarves to follow wasn't being used anymore. So, I think that Thranduil probably was pretty confident in his isolation and wasn't worried about word getting out.
@Avandel Re: What the Necromancer thinks of the Elven King...I would say that the Necromancer thinks of Thranduil as a *potential* enemy since he's so indifferent about events outside of his own realm, but still has the potential to be aroused into taking action against the darkness. IMO, that may actually be the reason why Mirkwood was being corrupted so slowly, instead of an outright attack on Thranduil's realm. The Necromancer may have been hoping that Thranduil would stay in denial long enough to be completely surrounded by darkness. Then, by the time he realized what was really happening and that ignoring the problem had only allowed it to get worse, it would be too late.
Actually, the question for me re Thorin's abrasive audience with Thranduil is, did he dialed it up because he felt he could and he did not need a deal (I'd think he understood the importance of keeping that date with the door)? Was he betting on Bilbo anyway? The one member of the company he seemed to be wavering on all through the journey until his ass got saved by him. I don't think Thorin was betting on Bilbo at all. I think Thorin's abrasive audience with Thranduil had much more to do with Thorin's anger and pride than anything else. He didn't want no stinkin' deal with Thranduil and he didn't need no stinkin' deal with Thranduil! Pride caused Thorin's date with the door (why am I suddenly picturing Thorin eating a romantic, candlelight dinner with a big wooden door sitting across the table from him?) to become secondary to his need to rip into Thranduil for the way he had turned his back on the dwarves.
"When life won't play along
And right keeps going wrong
And I can't seem to find my way
I know where I am found
So I won't let it drag me down
Oh, I'll keep dancing anyway"
~Move by MercyMe
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Eruvandi
Dor-Lomin
May 15 2014, 11:22pm
Post #107 of 219
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Wow, your really digging deep here, Kerewyn! I like it!
There are eleven pages worth of them and they are so eerie, so spooky, so ...'mirksome'. It's a while since I saw DoS and I don't own it yet, so can't pause and compare the intensity of the concept against the intensity of the final set. But let's just say that I became deeply moved by the rot and decay and twisting fungal-infested mirkyness. How would it be, to be an elf spending years, centuries, in a homeland that has gone from lush greeness to what it is now? Wouldn't it just break your heart? My heart breaks to consider it. I agree entirely that the thought of watching helplessly while your homeland transforms from a place of beauty and light to a place of decay and darkness is truly heartbreaking.
And it puts a spin on that notion of Thranduil's symbiotic relationship with the forest. We've spoken of the corruption of the forest possibly becoming a corruption of Thanduil himself - a sort of soul pollution. But I instead imagine a great sadness coming from this change, and from this, a bitterness developing, in spite of any struggle to the contrary. It is like two great beings sliding into a sort of depression together. So if, as you say, Thranduil can feel the land and trees, he must be feeling terrible a lot of the time, and you can't blame him for being grumpy. Powerful - yet helpless to bring the green back to the forest, because ultimately he can't control it. Does this mean it controls him instead? And their home must have been so deeply rooted there (pun intended) to not want to up and leave for healthier grounds. I wonder if Thranduil had tried anything at all, any elf magic, any spiritual projection of sorts, to try to heal the place, much as Radagast tries to heal the animals that fall sick. Maybe he was relying on a faith that things could turn, the world would come right, the canopy would not be the only place where leaves are seen. This is an interesting thought. It does indeed seem that both Thranduil and the forest are bitter and sad because of the changes that are occurring. I think there is also an element of fear, especially in Thranduil that is coming from his fear of the darkness of Mordor returning, with best example being the orc interrogation scene where, the second the orc says "My master serve The One" and that look of outright fear comes across Thranduil's face just before he beheads the orc. I think he also had fear in his voice when he tells Legolas that flames of war, "means that they intend to unleash a weapon so great it will destroy all before it."
To a certain extent, I can't say I blame him for that fear since it was at least partly at fault for the death of his father and two thirds of his fighting force, however, I think he is letting his fear, more than the forest itself, control him and paralyze him into inaction.
As for Thranduil trying to use magic to heal the place, I noticed in the movie that although the majority of Mirkwood was corrupted, the area around and inside of Thranduil's kingdom was still clean, healthy and bright. I credit this to the magic of the elves that live there.
I looked at the pictures again and thought 'how could he keep his people in such a place?' But it must be loved, or was once loved so deeply they could not turn their back on it.. this great organism that has let hem settle and given them shelter. Then I remembered a train trip back in 1997, travelling through a very polluted area in Eastern Europe - the grey landscape had been devastated, nothing was growing, I think there'd been some fallout from Chenobyl. There were ugly dark little townships trying to eke out a living on the edge of a massive mine that threatened to swallow them whole. I said to my Czech friend who was with me "Why don't these people move away? Why do they continue to live here?" His reply was "because they've always lived here, for many many generations. No matter what it looks like, it is their home." Exactly.
"When life won't play along
And right keeps going wrong
And I can't seem to find my way
I know where I am found
So I won't let it drag me down
Oh, I'll keep dancing anyway"
~Move by MercyMe
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Avandel
Gondolin
May 15 2014, 11:34pm
Post #108 of 219
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"Re: Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn trilogy. I got to get my hands on that! (OT: did you read Tailchaser's Song by Williams? IMO, it's got to be on every kitty minion's must-read booklist. )"
I haven't read Tailchaser's Song so I will put that on my list, now that it has a recommendation . For all it's heavy Tolkien borrowing, the MST does have some original ideas, sympathetic characters, good writing, and and epic, multi-thread story. I quite like some of things that Williams did - for instance at one point a gateway to an elven stronghold is a kind of song, yet the characters are walking. Also, deliciously, at one point he brings an image of the Wild Hunt into it - well anyway, no spoilers, but I think pretty enjoyable and nice and beefy. And it's fun ticking off "I know where the author got that idea from...."
"Though it does bother me that with both of them essentially sharing the same neighbourhood if they really had nothing to do with each other."
Agreed. That would be.....odd. Tho, the WETA books make a point - and I think a good one re the characterization of Radagast - that you would know instantly that this character, fluffy and silly as he seems to be - above all, HAS NO AGENDA. Think we do see a little of that in the faces of the dwarves when Radagast finds Gandlalf. So I should imagine that certainly Thranduil is very aware of Radagast, but is quite content this lover of the woods and creatures to be healing, collecting his mushrooms, being a forest spirit-shaman of sorts in the woods.
"Actually, the question for me re Thorin's abrasive audience with Thranduil is, did he dialed it up because he felt he could and he did not need a deal (I'd think he understood the importance of keeping that date with the door)? Was he betting on Bilbo anyway? The one member of the company he seemed to be wavering on all through the journey until his ass got saved by him."
My own strong feeling - and I've argued with other posters re Thorin/Bilbo at the end of AUJ who think Thorin hugging Bilbo was out of character - is based on a combination of interviews, imagining the movie Thorin character as real (e.g. in surviving Smaug, battles, and leading a people to rebuild), and the WETA Nordic/Scandinavian concept of the dwarves. So Thorin is a dwarf, with all the clannishness that dwarves feel about other races to begin with. Add to that the heavy emotional scars Thorin carries (as depicted in the movie, one reviewer describing him as "tortured" - interestingly to me is RA saying that "Thorin hasn't slept easily" and in AUJ we see him in the cave with Orcrist grasped to him - and he's awake and listening.
I'm condensing a lot of this (because I could write volumes about Thorin's characterization in the films) but in any case, to my mind, Thorin never stops bleeding, over his family, and his people. So outwardly he can be pretty harsh, (as people are who carry a lot of emotional weight, often). The point here being that Bilbo, I think in two selfless acts (the first being "I will help you take it back if I can", the second "nearly getting himself killed") was able to bridge an enormous - dare I say interracial - divide with Thorin. It was a huge mental chasm for the proud, embittered king to cross (recalling that as far as I can tell, no-one ever helped the exiled dwarves really, tho that isn't covered as they settle in the Blue Mountains). Not only does Bilbo "get into Thorin's heart", if you will (noting that as described dwarves are fiercely loyal) - but, tho it seems just part of the narrative, I think DOS depicts a significant change in how the company views Bilbo, right from the start of the movie. Also Thorin would know that Bilbo had to have cut them down, had survived the goblin tunnels, and most of all, where is Bilbo when they are captured? Maybe he's dead. But Bilbo seems to be full of surprises, e.g. "not our only hope".
But re Thranduil, to me that's the other side of the coin, in that if one thing that moves Thorin re Bilbo is Bilbo's self-sacrifice - what of Thorin's attitude toward someone he evidently considered an ally of sorts who "turned his back?" And evidently dwarves are proud, it would have been humiliating to ask for help to begin with. And Thorin watched his people suffer (who knows what in theory would have happened as the result of Thranduil "turning his back", how many would have gone hungry etc.).
So at that moment, basically, I don't think Thorin IS thinking of Bilbo at all. I think Thorin's mind might have been working as he was marched into the elven fortress, but at that moment (and I think the film depicts this beautifully) all Thorin is seeing, and thinking of, was the days, weeks, months, of suffering dwarves that he had lead from Erebor. I don't think Thorin is thinking anything, but the fury of it all. And it's obvious the thought of any deal is revolting to him, re Thranduil.
But I think Thorin knew, in the back of his mind, maybe, just maybe, Bilbo might be able to do something, if he lived. If only to somehow reach Gandalf, even. And then we see Thorin telling the dwarves to "do as Bilbo says" e.g. think the movie is showing just what a huge shift in the relationship there is. (Sadly I think this very love/respect will segue into what RA describes as a maddened Thorin becoming "fixated"? on Bilbo, because if you view a person as competent, that is also a person who can do you harm.)
Sorry if that got a little long-winded, just I see so many details that went to fleshing out the characterizations, and they can seem innocuous, but IMO they are not when you think about them.
"It's a game of brinksmanship and he's betting that they need to continue more than he needs them in his dungeons."
This, I think is excellent. And, the "patient Thranduil" will get what he wants - those white gems. Interestingly too, I wonder - if Thorin HAD gone for it, I'd have to assume Thranduil would have forced the dwarves to take some elves along, to make sure if those gems. Fun to speculate - assuming Gandalf never showed - would the elves have raised their chances of dealing with Smaug? Tho I also believe the dwarves would have tried to ditch any elves at the first opportunity, probably not successfully.
"BTW, did you see the LOL gif I posted?"
- Which one? Aggh - too many threads, but wanna make sure I caught it!
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Eruvandi
Dor-Lomin
May 15 2014, 11:41pm
Post #109 of 219
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Thanks for asking.
This first week of my math course has been about concepts with which I am already somewhat familiar, so it's been nice to be sort of eased into things like that. So far I've learned about Greatest Common Factors, Lowest Common Multiple, adding subtracting multiplying and dividing fractions, and "Order of Operations".
The style of teaching is working really well for me too. (keeping in mind this class is entirely done online) There are 8-11 minute videos about each individual concept where this guy explains things really clearly, step-by-step and gives lots of examples. Then I have online exercises where I type the answers into a box and if I get it right, it congratulates me, and if I get it wrong, it re-explains the concept and give me another try. If I'm really having trouble with something, there are lots of options where I can have it show me how to do the problem, get tutoring, or contact the professor directly. After I finish all the exercises, I take the quiz for the week and I'm done.
I actually finished all the work for this week to day and I'm going to use the rest of the week to get ahead on next week's work. That way, if I do hit a rough patch along the way, I'll be ahead enough that I'll have a little more time to work it out or get help.
I'm still a little nervous about when I'll finally start having to learn about algebra though. Hopefully, I won't end up in tears over anything!
"When life won't play along
And right keeps going wrong
And I can't seem to find my way
I know where I am found
So I won't let it drag me down
Oh, I'll keep dancing anyway"
~Move by MercyMe
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RandomSilvanElf
Lindon
May 16 2014, 10:22am
Post #110 of 219
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Your post lured me deep into the pond of pondering....
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When I read your post at first I wanted to disagree, but now I wonder....
When only reading The Hobbit it never occurred to me to see Elvenking as sad or depressed. Ambiguous definitely, cunning and prideful with no doubt, but depressed? Never. Disappearing, dreamy feasts and his crown of berries always gave me a little of mischievous Oberon vibe.
From the book itself the Silvan Elves appear to be happy and sassy beings, considering all the magical feasts and singing and stealing their king's wine. It does say that the forest became clearer when they reached Woodland Realm and as Eruvandi said I believe it was the magic of elves at work. And we have to recognize that Thranduil lands didn't include all of Mirkwood, and he cared about his realm only. But also we get to know that he was concerned by the spiders and loathed them, and that his Halls were built as a stronghold for his people in case of danger.
Then, when we get to know his background, that was, for all we can assume, developed by Tolkien after The Hobbit, things get much more complicated. We get to know that those elves started moving away from central area of Greenwood to escape the influence of Moria and Lothlorien- or something like that (someone who knows better. please correct me if needed). So we can assume that they didn't care what later happened with those lands. On the other hand Dol Guldur used to be home of Oropher and Thranduil must have lived there too. Wouldn't it concern him that something evil is dwelling there? Especially considering the angst he has in his heart. Or was it enough for him to isolate himself and his realm in a little corner and live happily there? Considering the experience he has in war and that enemy, he is too wise to ignore such a thing. However, when we think of his loses in the Last Alliance, he still may think that best and safest for his people is to hide and be like ghosts in the forest.
Another thing worthy to be observed, elves feel nature a bit different that a human or a dwarf. In the Fangorn scenes in LOTR- Gimli was scared, Aragorn was wary but Legolas was somewhat crazy happy, even if the trees were angry. So although the mirk in Mirkwood is something abnormal, the elves would still love the trees and the forest might not be as dangerous for them as for a normal traveler. Considering they go hunting all the time and have feasts, the animals, at least in Woodland Realm must still be normal enough. Also the time they lived in that forest was very long, and the mirk crept slowly so they might have grown so accustomed to it, that their see it as something normal? As for Thranduil, who depending on how old he is, probably experienced much more tragic events, might be that even wars,that reshaped the continents, Mirkwood growing dark is not such a big tragedy.
Then we have the movies and that take on the character, where it's suggested that corruption of the forest is corrupting the Elvenking. But I guess its' not possible for it to completely overrule his character, it might make the elves less trusting and more dangerous to be around, but it was clearly stated that they are good creatures. Similar to Galadriel, who is tempted by the power of the ring, but is too good to use it. It's not that there wasn't ever Elves that were cruel and acting truly terrible. But those who came out alive after bloody First Age and Sauron's meddling in Second seemed to grow much wiser.
So now after voicing my thoughts, I feel totally confused on the matter. He doesn't seem to be sad, but he has reasons to be sad. I don't want him to be sad? It makes me sad...
Oh Thranduil, such a wondrous, multi- layered character, wouldn't you just like to stalk him and listen to every word he says to discover at least a bit of what is in his mind and hearth? He's too much to handle. OK, I'm fan-girling now..
"At this time therefore the Sindar were well-armed, and they drove off an creatures of evil, and had peace again; but Thingol's armouries were stored with axes and with spears and swords, and tall helms, and long coats of bright mail (...) And that proved well for Thingol in the time that was to come…"
More of my opinionated scribbles
http://betweenfictionandreality.wordpress.com
https://twitter.com/Elisabetta8i8
Follow me as I re-read my way through Silmarillion, Unfinished tales, Hobbit, Lord of the Rings and everything else I can get my hands on.
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Lurker in the Mirk
Doriath
May 16 2014, 12:52pm
Post #111 of 219
(35747 views)
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So wish we could get a vlog now
I can see Thranduil deciding to hunt some orc because how can he live down the orc incursion and the Elf deaths caused without some punitive measures against the offenders, besides taking out Narzug? (OT I think that his promise to set Narzug free was really just to track him back to the orc camp and clean up. Prolly why Legolas was upset - there goes Operation Reprisal)
That Thranduil has been presented to be a cold, calculating mercurial uncaring isolationist with a serious case of gem-crazy who don't keep promises in DOS, and then to have him go to Bard and Laketown's aid, and then enter Battle and strut his gamechanging warrior cool on BotFA, and then step aside and defer to Bard's claim on the treasure will be an interesting transition. I blame PJ for not setting up Thranduil's backstory better, but it will definitely be interesting to see how this character arc develop... I just hope PJ doesn't throw in anything weird that makes me go 
Honestly, Luke Evans' Bard doesn't do it for me, but I really like book Bard, what little there was. So on that principle, count me in on the Thranduil and Bard anticipation wagon. Though that phot of Legolas and Bard's got me worried Legolas will be given things to do that should be on Thranduil's story arc.
I guess we can only hope and wait for December.
But I wonder what his motivation will be in the movies - a word of approaching army? Plead from Laketown? In the book, there was that lovely development of events: that he went to grab unattended treasure, but seeing the tragedy of Lake People, he gives away from his own wealth and supplies to help them, which shows his philanthropic side and that although he doesn't like to risk his minions lives for anyone, he is not indifferent to suffering in other lands (in the end he doesn't even get that much treasure from the whole business LOL). I badly need a scene between Bard and Elvenking, While watching DOS again I developed a great admiration for descendant of Girion and want to see their cooperation. They will make an interesting team.
Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III, IV
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
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Lurker in the Mirk
Doriath
May 16 2014, 12:53pm
Post #112 of 219
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Enjoy your weekend out, and tell us how you like The Fall
Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III, IV
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
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Kim
Doriath
May 16 2014, 9:32pm
Post #114 of 219
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Finally an official confirmation on the scar. I was wondering if we were ever going to get that. Seems to confirm what a lot people were guessing. And the comment about Legolas' mom - even more interesting.
"Jagatud rõõm on topelt rõõm - a shared joy is a double joy". ~Estonian saying
As such, you will address His Majesty as His Majesty, the Lord of Silver Fountains, the King of Carven Stone, the King Beneath the Mountain, the Lion of Erebor, the High King of the Dwarves, the True Treasure of Erebor, the Face that Launched 10,000 Sighs, or Thorin the Majestic..."
http://newboards.theonering.net/...forum_view_collapsed
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Avandel
Gondolin
May 17 2014, 12:17am
Post #115 of 219
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Very cool and not far off from what I thought
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That the injury was real - I just didn't know if it was a memory of an injury that was healed, or the scars/blind eye were still there but concealed.
I think the scene was effective enough, but how I mourn that it wasn't a bit longer. I'm not one to have to have EVERYTHING spelled out, but I could have seen an additional line of script being added in, something where Thranduil keeps his scarred face close to Thorin and says something to the effect of his own losses. Too trite?
And having Thorin vent some more would have been something to cherish.
But thank you for posting that!
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vanima ephel
Ossiriand
May 17 2014, 12:21am
Post #116 of 219
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It's just not what I want to believe about him. But it does seem a very good reason to claim his condition/state-of-mind is negative enough and strong enough to physically manifest throughout his kingdom - especially if it requires a constant flow of magic.
(I've been telling myself he was using Elven minstrel magic to "create a show" of his psychological scars for Thorin, and unless they offer proof positive that it's actually physical in tBotFA, I just might cling to that.)
"I dissent, even at the risk of being held incorrect or not sober."
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Lurker in the Mirk
Doriath
May 17 2014, 3:38am
Post #117 of 219
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Forests of ME and Mirkwood through the ages and those who lived there
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Wow, Kerewyn. That was a beautiful post! I'm late to the party as your post triggered some what-ifs and I-thought-I-read-about-that which compelled the OCD reader in me to go scouring online and in the dusty memvault for ME greenery references.
There are eleven pages worth of them and they are so eerie, so spooky, so ...'mirksome'. It's a while since I saw DoS and I don't own it yet, so can't pause and compare the intensity of the concept against the intensity of the final set. But let's just say that I became deeply moved by the rot and decay and twisting fungal-infested mirkyness. How would it be, to be an elf spending years, centuries, in a homeland that has gone from lush greeness to what it is now? Wouldn't it just break your heart? My heart breaks to consider it.
And it puts a spin on that notion of Thranduil's symbiotic relationship with the forest. We've spoken of the corruption of the forest possibly becoming a corruption of Thanduil himself - a sort of soul pollution. But I instead imagine a great sadness coming from this change, and from this, a bitterness developing, in spite of any struggle to the contrary. It is like two great beings sliding into a sort of depression together. So if, as you say, Thranduil can feel the land and trees, he must be feeling terrible a lot of the time, and you can't blame him for being grumpy. Powerful - yet helpless to bring the green back to the forest, because ultimately he can't control it. Does this mean it controls him instead? And their home must have been so deeply rooted there (pun intended) to not want to up and leave for healthier grounds. I wonder if Thranduil had tried anything at all, any elf magic, any spiritual projection of sorts, to try to heal the place, much as Radagast tries to heal the animals that fall sick. Maybe he was relying on a faith that things could turn, the world would come right, the canopy would not be the only place where leaves are seen.
I looked at the pictures again and thought 'how could he keep his people in such a place?' But it must be loved, or was once loved so deeply they could not turn their back on it.. this great organism that has let hem settle and given them shelter. Then I remembered a train trip back in 1997, travelling through a very polluted area in Eastern Europe - the grey landscape had been devastated, nothing was growing, I think there'd been some fallout from Chenobyl. There were ugly dark little townships trying to eke out a living on the edge of a massive mine that threatened to swallow them whole. I said to my Czech friend who was with me "Why don't these people move away? Why do they continue to live here?" His reply was "because they've always lived here, for many many generations. No matter what it looks like, it is their home." First, about the movie Mirkwood. You said it! 11 pages of mirksomeness - Oh for the book to be in my grabby hands right now!
Erm... if you remember from my fangirl-to-OCD-research-ficcer account, my *cough*magnusopus*cough* involved Mirkwood a great deal. So I had preconceived notions of the mirkyness that is the Forest (even them spiders) and Thranduil's Halls were like. I've to say it was a SQUEE! fest for me, movie Mirkwood, right from the arches of the gate, except for the too-bright-psychedelia while the company was losing its way, and the almost-normal lighting during the 3-sided melee of the company, spiders and Elves. But it was great otherwise, even the spiders. It was sinister, creepy and just aptly unruly gloom, just as the images I have in my mind. But Thranduil's Halls: those exceeded my modest imagination of how the cavernous pad looked. I  that cave!
I think there are hints of tribute to the awesomeness of the pre-mirk Forest carved into the architecture (those tall straight beams carved like tree trunks with root systems for their bases), even though conceptually Thranduil based the theme and design on Menegroth, capital/fortress of Thingol, presumbably Thranduil's home until Oropher upped and towed him and a few Sindars and went east.
To appreciate how depressing things have become, I think it is helpful to think about forests in ME, not just Mirkwood. True, compared to the magnificence of the pre-Mirk Greenwood, what the forest was at the time of TH must depress not only Thranduil and the Elves, but the other good folk who (still) lived there. But it must be extra-depressing for the Elves who would be aware of the history of forests in ME (and probably some who remember living in those bloom times) and the subsequent, on-going diminishment, Greenwood included.
We're told that a great primeval forest once covered practically all the lands of ME, all the way back to the First Age. But it was wittled down and broken up by Men and Sauron, in the name of progress and war probably. By the Third Age, there were only a few fragments left. Great in their right, but pale ghosts of the FOREST. One of these patches was Fangorn Forest - with trees that seemed alive and Ents still shuffled about. Old Man Willow in the Old Forest outside Buckland in the Shire was just a tiny isolated island that once was connected to Fangorn itself.
It's not explicitly stated, but Greenwood must be linked with Fangorn back in the day too.
(Click on the thumbnail to open the original map)
Imagine the wonder of talking trees and Ents commuting all the way around between these 2 great forests (though without Ents in the vicinity it's not a good idea to try chatting those trees up). Greenwood itself seemed to take shape at around the time Oropher settled there and made Amon Lanc (later to become Dol Guldur) his capital, and it it seemed like the Ents had already retreated to Fangorn. While some of the wilder trees, the mobile Huorns, may have followed the Ents (though more likely herded by them), I'd think that some of them may still be rooted in Greenwood. Legolas certainly seemed to feel a connection in Fangorn, and I'd like to think it's based on what he heard (or experienced depending on how old one thinks he is), enough of one that I think support this thought. It was probably a wondrous time to be a treehugger - great forests that tingle with LIFE, and how. But I profess to liking very much the thought that the Forest was alive. And that it probably have some resonance with the Elves, especially the two Kings, and the resulting grump of Thranduil we see.
I can't remember if there's any mention of Oropher's halls being wholly above-ground. It would be interesting to think about the Elves felling trees for building materials, given Legolas' empathy with the Fangorn trees. And did that cause the Elves problems with vengeful trees? I'd like to think that like Thranduil after him, he built at least part of his citadel underground. It would be more strategic as well. The only problem is, the ruins of Dol Guldur did not seemed to be subterranean at all,. So it seemed Oropher built a brick and mortar fortress that got squatted on by the Necromancer. I bet Oropher must rue that outcome regardless.
Oropher chose to abandon Amon Lanc apparently to put some distance between his people and Lothlorien and minimise contact with Dwarves, for historical reasons. But could he also have made the move due to the looming Shadow? Yet he didn't go far, or out of Mirkwood, just north. Similarly, we know Thranduil just kept moving his people northwards when the threat of Shadow grew more oppressive. Both seemed content, and in character, to mind their own business, and use whatever magic and ability the Elves have to keep their patch of the Forest fit for themselves. I think this ability has to do with why the Elves continued to stay where they are. But it must weigh heavy on them to see the reality beyond the line they've drawn. And in particular, Thranduil's temperament can't have benefitted from it.
The thing is, how much further north could Thranduil move. He would have to run of Wood at some point. What would it take to galvanise him into countering the Shadow? And I wonder if some of his subjects might choose to migrate elsewhere, either out of frustration at the passiveness of just moving or depression at the advancing shadow. Or would they follow the Elvenking to the end? It must say something about his force of personality and charisma, in addition to his leadership ability, for Oropher to simply go among them with a handful of fellow Sindars, and found a kingdom among the Silvan. And then for Thranduil to survive the War, bring back a triumphant but diminished force, and then assume rule despite the massive loss of Elves and the long time away surely points to their faith in him and his statesmanship, though granted the Silvan are supposed to be simpler and rustic since the court must be made of at least some Sindar, especially a caretaker who might have gotten used to running things.
Eruvandi mentioned in her response about both Thranduil and the forest being bitter and sad because of the changes in the Forest and the element of fear, especially in Thranduil. I believe it is not Sauron or his powers that Thranduil fear, but rather what would happen if ME fell to darkness. After all, he was living on its doorstep, right after participating in the War that incapacitated Sauron for a good while. He must feel the threat and what could become reality. So it is curious that he would rather simply further away from Dol Guldur than take action like collaborate with Lothlorien to contend with the Darkness, since Lothlorien is said to radiate a golden mist that countered the evil emanating from Mirkwood south. The only thing to be said about his apparent preference for inaction to a solution is probably his pathos against anything Noldorin is strong. (slightly off-topic: that countering by Lothlorien surely points to some power or aid they had that enabled them to do so because I can't believe that Lothlorien Elves by themselves could muster enough Elven glamour to do something like that-much like expecting hamsters on wheels to generate electricity, so if Thranduil has an inkling of that, it seemed even more pronounced his pathos to not try for something with Lothlorien.) I also think that Thranduil probably just refused to vacate Mirkwood, but did not see how he could counter the darkness. Or perhaps he has lived long enough, or had some insight, that indicated to him at some point, resolution would come, so it's better to not strike first until then.
So what about the Men who lived in Mirkwood? Unlike the Elves, they would probably need wood for a multitude of uses: building, fires and weapons. They seemed to be allowed to do what they needed to set up shop, and wear down the forest as they go as well. But I've rambled long enough. On homes, and attachment to the idea of homes, even when reality is no longer that case, I leave you with this narrative piece, "Horror In the Woods How Men Live in Mirkwood", by tolkien scholar Michael Martinez, as food for thought.
Nice reference to Dorian Grey! Tolkien does go for obvious black and white when it comes to characteristics, visuals. And yet he weaved such delicious grey areas in the stories he developed. Like the inevitable fading of the Elves, despite their physical perfection and immortality. Always a catch somewhere
An observation: in our world, decay often merely means 'aging', and something of ancientness can easily be accepted as withered and dry.
In ME, elves of great age retain their immaculate beauty. Wisdom is then reflected as outer beauty....(wizards aside) while something twisted, warped and ugly represents corruption - not only Mirkwood, but Theoden while under the influence, and the entire races of orcs and goblins.
I suppose it's an easy and often-used symbolism (one that Oscar Wilde turned on its head with Dorian Grey)
Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III, IV
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
(This post was edited by Lurker in the Mirk on May 17 2014, 3:41am)
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Lurker in the Mirk
Doriath
May 17 2014, 4:57am
Post #118 of 219
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Way before the movies, my aunt took a NZ holiday and since then it has been on my to-do list - I will get there someday. *sigh* I have a list that's too long to even embarrass me now, LotR being one on my reading list. So glad the movies gave it a super bump tho
To think this great work had been around all my life, and I was introduced to it through the medium of film! (And being a NZer living abroad, it made me very homesick for the place. LOTR was indirectly responsible for me striving to visit my family more ofen, bringing us closer.)
Somehow this gives me comfort
Anyway, am quite intrigued by your Hunt for Gollum theme. And you also mention the Grima perspective on him and Eowyn - I am so not judging you there because I have written on the same, though mine was merely a drabble.
Very true. I'm got enough self-awareness to know that I'm not the greatest writer ever, but I do know my ficcing have a margin on bad-writing. By virtue of that, in the online world, they're destined to be low on readership, especially if you put it up in ffnet (erm full disclosure: that's where I started too) ... unless you're a known ficcer who has a dedicated following. So given the general demographics and climate of fanficcing, no feedback doesn't mean bad writing - at least that's how I comfort myself.
I don't know about now, but I think this still holds true. Still, back in the LotR era (sounds like it was so long ago, but it does feel so), there were places where good fics can be found. Tend to have a snobbish streak running through them, who can blame them though, but I was disappointed in the developing self-important in-culture where only the elite/famous ficcers seemed to flourish. Anyway, I tried a few of these "quality" fic sites- I'll look them if you need a list. Let me know.
I need to get over this fear of sharing. There are plenty of badly written stories out there, and mine would probably be enjoyed by a tiny handful of readers. I must be nervous about getting feedback - or NO feedback.
Right... back to regular Thranduil programming:
Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III, IV
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
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Lurker in the Mirk
Doriath
May 17 2014, 5:28am
Post #119 of 219
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Well, about Thorin's hissy-fit and betting on Bilbo
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I don't think Thorin was betting on Bilbo at all. I think Thorin's abrasive audience with Thranduil had much more to do with Thorin's anger and pride than anything else. He didn't want no stinkin' deal with Thranduil and he didn't need no stinkin' deal with Thranduil! Pride caused Thorin's date with the door (why am I suddenly picturing Thorin eating a romantic, candlelight dinner with a big wooden door sitting across the table from him? ) to become secondary to his need to rip into Thranduil for the way he had turned his back on the dwarves.
Given how they live so close together, it does seem odd that Thranduil and Radagast don't seem to interact at all. Of course, their so different, with Thranduil being so fabulous and Radagast being so...so...eccentric?...I can't help but imagine any interactions between the two being highly awkward. Kind of like this. Where did you find that gem!!! It is PRECIOUS! I sniggered and snorted
I do imagine that Gandalf may need to play intermediary if these 2 need to have any real convo at all.
When I read The Hobbit, I got the impression that nobody was going into Mirkwood with it being as corrupted and dangerous as it was at that point. IIRC, even Gandalf hadn't been in there recently enough to know that the road he told the dwarves to follow wasn't being used anymore. So, I think that Thranduil probably was pretty confident in his isolation and wasn't worried about word getting out. There was still minimal road activity and some trade, if not with traders traversing the forest to get from east to west or vice versa. The Silvan of Mirkwood themselves did not seem to have much tradeskills or crafts to their name, and yet they did trade - buying wine and supplies from Laketown for example. Which begs the interesting question: How did they get the things they need to use? Road tolls seemed to be the answer. It's mentioned, either in TH or LotR-prolly TH, that the Elvenking exacts high tolls. Still, while tolls may generate some income, trade would decline because of the general doldrums and economic malaise. But trade there was. So there would be travellers in the woods. At least on the Forest Road.
(Though the interesting question, and OT, is when things got really bad, the scarcity of trade won't be enough to sustain the realm's needs, even if the tolls are hiked up to the skies. I mentioned in a previous discussion with vanima about Thranduil's gem-envy that I felt that since Oropher ruled for a fair bit before Thranduil took over, even if Oropher's administration had no treasury problems to begin, by the time of the Last Alliance, I'd think inflation and scarcity of goods and resources would have had impact on the prices of goods, especially luxury goods like Dorwinion wine, and the poverty line might have reared its ugly head? (Which might account for the lack of adequate protection for the troops that went to war, apart from hubris or bravado? I don't think Oropher would be that inexperienced with conflict to think light armour was enough in itself for battle in such a large scale theatre). I would think Thranduil was a studious king-in-waiting, and it helped he had the smarts to pick up the pieces during and after the war, and literally make things work. The ages changed, but there's still mouths to feed and a kingdom to run. So I do feel that economics play into Thranduil's gem-hoarding compulsion even if he didn't pick up the gem-envy from Dad. )
Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III, IV
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
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Lurker in the Mirk
Doriath
May 17 2014, 5:52am
Post #120 of 219
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I haven't read Tailchaser's Song so I will put that on my list, now that it has a recommendation . For all it's heavy Tolkien borrowing, the MST does have some original ideas, sympathetic characters, good writing, and and epic, multi-thread story. I quite like some of things that Williams did - for instance at one point a gateway to an elven stronghold is a kind of song, yet the characters are walking. Also, deliciously, at one point he brings an image of the Wild Hunt into it - well anyway, no spoilers, but I think pretty enjoyable and nice and beefy. And it's fun ticking off "I know where the author got that idea from...."
Sorry if that got a little long-winded, just I see so many details that went to fleshing out the characterizations, and they can seem innocuous, but IMO they are not when you think about them. oh no, this is great. Thorin does have a lot of emotional baggage and the weight of the world on his shoulders. Tho conversely, I see a similar situation for Thranduil re his long life and experiences. I do think there's a resonance in their respective histories. In a different time, they may even have achieved great understanding with each other. But within this sphere of existence, Thranduil is probably feeling rather blase and unsympathetic to Thorin's woes because he has face the same in some way too, and he's had much longer to live with them. Whether he's squared them is another matter.
But still, given his mercurial temperament when they confront each other, it's no wonder he is condescending and amused by Thorin's quest.
This, I think is excellent. And, the "patient Thranduil" will get what he wants - those white gems. Interestingly too, I wonder - if Thorin HAD gone for it, I'd have to assume Thranduil would have forced the dwarves to take some elves along, to make sure if those gems. Fun to speculate - assuming Gandalf never showed - would the elves have raised their chances of dealing with Smaug? Tho I also believe the dwarves would have tried to ditch any elves at the first opportunity, probably not successfully. Brilliant! Of course Thranduil wouldn't stoop to grunt work, even for the Gems, so he would probably send a few trusted elites from his personal guard or the Mirkwood SEAL team. Legolas, if he is certified/inducted into the How-To-Slay-A-Dragon-And-Survive prep course by his Daddy, might be tasked to run Operation White Gems, and deflect the Dwarves' counter-intelligence manoeuvres he would anticipate to happen along the way. Delcious Cloak and Dagger, ME style. But I wager the Dwarves might abandon any attempt at subterfuge pretty quick! In any case, Thranduil would be preparing his treasure vault for the White Gems, the appointed Elven operations leader would be stressing out over the successful conclusion of the operation, the Dwarves would be trying to morse-code each other and having a beard-pulling time trying to keep Bilbo up-to-speed, and Thorin would be extra-difficult to live with while the Elves are with them.
"BTW, did you see the LOL gif I posted?"
- Which one? Aggh - too many threads, but wanna make sure I caught it!
This one, in my reply to this post of yours.
Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III, IV
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
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Lurker in the Mirk
Doriath
May 17 2014, 6:03am
Post #122 of 219
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Oh Thranduil, such a wondrous, multi- layered character, wouldn't you just like to stalk him and listen to every word he says to discover at least a bit of what is in his mind and hearth? He's too much to handle. OK, I'm fan-girling now..
Fan of both books and movies. Oh, and it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Thranduil Appreciation: I, II, III, IV
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
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Eruvandi
Dor-Lomin
May 17 2014, 5:35pm
Post #123 of 219
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Erm... mind if I ask why do you need to go delving into math in particular for your studies (IIRC nursing wasn't it)? Actually it's Religion, Business Marketing and Teaching. That's Ok though. I have trouble keeping track of it all too.
Honestly, I don't know why I have to go delving into math in particular. If I understand correctly, you have to take a certain number of math courses no matter what your degree is (lots of colleges are doing that these days, not just mine). It's required if you want to graduate. I think the reason I have to take this course in particular is because I have to take a statistics course later and Math 100 was a prerequisite for that.
Math rant beginning: If you ask me, it's all ridiculous. I understand basic math and I have no intention of getting a math-intensive career after graduation. I won't even need this level of Math for teaching because I only want to teach pre-school or elementary school. What I already know should be more than enough, but nooooooo. When I asked my dad recently to remind me again why they require these math courses, he said it's basically because no one who isn't working in a math intensive field would take the upper level math courses if they weren't required and the math professors feel the need to justify their careers. Therefore, they require math courses. *sigh*
"When life won't play along
And right keeps going wrong
And I can't seem to find my way
I know where I am found
So I won't let it drag me down
Oh, I'll keep dancing anyway"
~Move by MercyMe
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Rembrethil
Dor-Lomin
May 18 2014, 12:00am
Post #124 of 219
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It looks like a good issue!! I wonder now.....
What happens when he sleeps, or if he is unconscious?
How does it tie into the story of his mother?
So many questions, but it is nice to know they looked into such a small detail.
Call me Rem, and remember, not all who ramble are lost...Uh...where was I?
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[Spoiler-ish] Thranduil's facemelt according to P.Boyens in May'14 Empire edition
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