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Legalize_Athelas
Lorien
Jun 15 2010, 5:54pm
Post #26 of 64
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I've always wanted to high-five a chinchilla. //
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Got Necroquestions? I'll give you Necromanswers.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 15 2010, 5:59pm
Post #27 of 64
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"Sticklers of the world unite!"
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"You have nothing to lose but your sense of proportion--and arguably you didn't have much of that to begin with."
--From Eats, Shoots and Leaves by Lynne Truss
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 15 2010, 6:15pm
Post #28 of 64
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the first time you read LotR? Or has it only become jarring in later readings?
I judge that "Lor' bless you" fits into the language of the Shire, and deliberately maintains ambiguity about the identity of the "Lor'". It's similar to Sam's love for "taters."
And it's similar to language used throughout The Hobbit -- I'm sure I didn't find it jarring the first time I read LotR as a sequel to The Hobbit. I found the archaic style of speaking in Rohan and Gondor more jarring, even if I understand why the style changes.
Tolkien does disguises the Christian reference, and makes it ambiguous. We don't know who the "Lor'" might be, and remember that in the 1950s and 60s readers knew nothing about Manwe or Illuvatar, and many still don't.
To cite another example, when Denethor tries to burn himself and his son, Gandalf accusing him of acting like "heathen" lords. That also borders on a Christian reference. But I didn't notice it until NZ Strider pointed it out to us.
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 15 2010, 6:22pm
Post #29 of 64
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Or sarcastic? Or just smart?
Jet Ski or JetSki is the brand name. Jetski, jet-ski, or jet ski is the generic, unbranded name for the device. An alternative brand is WaveRunner; an alternative generic, unbranded name is waverunner.
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Morthoron
Grey Havens
Jun 15 2010, 6:29pm
Post #30 of 64
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To cite another example, when Denethor tries to burn himself and his son, Gandalf accusing him of acting like "heathen" lords. That also borders on a Christian reference. But I didn't notice it until NZ Strider pointed it out to us.
'Heathen' is a perfectly fine word in that case, and from the Old English (hæðen). Aside from its strictly religious sense (pagan, gentile), it has the secondary connotation 'strange and uncivilized'. It is certainly better from Tolkien's standpoint than using 'barbarian' which is of direct Greek derivation (although heathen may also eventually be tracked to Greek, but first through Gothic and Old Norse).
In addition, Denethor, being of Numenorean caste, would rightly consider the lords of old he referred to as 'pagan' worshippers of Morgoth or Sauron perhaps. Denethors use of the word certainly conjures the appropriate visual of ancient lords who did not meet his level of urbanity.
"I was crazy back when being crazy really meant something. Nowadays everybody's crazy." -- Charles Manson
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 15 2010, 6:53pm
Post #31 of 64
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But it jarred me the first time I read it, thinking that I was somehow in England and not in Middle-Earth.
I got over it on later readings.
But sorry, I don't see any ambiguity about it. It's a specific religious reference in any English I know of, even if the "d" is dropped.
I don't see anything ambiguous about "taters" either. What else is the likely meaning besides "potatoes"?
"Heathens" also seemed like a Christian reference to me on first read. After reading about Numenor, etc, it seemed to refer to less-advanced, non-Dunedain people.
And I was joking about jet-skis. Hence the "<humor>." Sorry if it wasn't funny.
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visualweasel
Rohan
Jun 15 2010, 7:04pm
Post #32 of 64
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A few points to throw into the discussion.
First, notice that Tolkien puts incorrect in quotation marks in his comments. If this plural form were truly and unequivocally incorrect, why those quotation marks, eh? More to the point, dwarves (so spelled) occurs many times in print before Tolkien used it. It was particularly common in translations of the Eddas published in the 19th century. Google Books (not exhaustive, but merely representative) has more than 1,500 hits on dwarves through 1930. It's true this is grossly dwarfed by the number of hits on dwarfs, but because of these uses, I don't think we can say dwarves is incorrect, merely uncommon.
Why would Tolkien use it? A number of reasons come to mind. I'll give you a couple of the most likely, as I see it: (1) because he wanted to emphasize the less common form, because he enjoyed throwing light into such linguistic nooks and crannies; (2) because it made sense to him, on the same model of plural forms like hooves, turves, and of course elves — all of which Tolkien used.
What about dwarrows? This is a form the word could have taken in Modern English (following the same model as arrow and barrow), but did not. It's not "correct" in any real sense. Tolkien may say he should have used it, but if he had, he'd have been the first in modern English literature. Tolkien calls dwarrows the "real 'historical' plural", but if this is more than his own scholarly assertion, then I am not aware of his source. There were a number of spellings of the word in Middle English (including dwerowe and dwarrow), and the real sticking point is in the final gutteral consonant. This was a hard /g/ in Old English, but became a back spirant /3/ in Middle English. Later, /f/ was substituted, on the same model as rough and enough, but Tolkien is certainly correct that the back spirant could have become /o(w)/ instead, on the model of dough or burrough. But in fact, this didn't happen. It could have become dwarrow, but in fact became dwarf.
For more on how this word and others with the terminal back spirant developed, see E. Koeppel's essay, "Zur Englischen Wortbildungslehre", in Archiv für das Studium der Neueren Sprachen und Literaturen, Volume 104 (1900), pp. 32–4 (§3), esp. p. 34.
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
“On Fairy-stories” discussion 2008 – “Origins” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 15 2010, 7:10pm
Post #33 of 64
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is more ambiguous than "Christ," or even "God," I judge. "Taters" is more ambiguous than "potatoes," I judge, just as "pipeweed" is more ambiguous than "tobacco."
But your mileage may vary.
Yes, I was aware that you were joking about jet-ski. And I thought it was funny. But I was being silly by answering. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 15 2010, 7:16pm
Post #34 of 64
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for "correct" English can be vague, as Tolkien was well aware, and that may be why he put "incorrect" in quotes. But it may be that he didn't realize, or had forgotten, how uncommon "dwarves" was until he read the reviews and realized they all used "dwarfs."
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Oiotári
Tol Eressea
Jun 15 2010, 7:41pm
Post #35 of 64
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I like the pie chart about uses of irony
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reminds me of celebrating a holiday (I think it was Christmas) at my aunts
a bunch of us were standing / sitting around the kitchen island, and some of them were arguing about what is irony and what is coincidence
I went home that night and dreamt about us eating still around the island, eating pork matzah ball soup 
You can only come to the morning through the shadows
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 15 2010, 9:06pm
Post #37 of 64
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Tolkien seems to have gotten in the last word on that usage by calling Moria "Dwarrowdelf."
What we haven't talked about so far is that he liked to invent his own languages for personal pleasure and for his own universe, including new languages based on existing ones like Welsh and Finnish. He probably couldn't resist inventing words in English too.
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 15 2010, 9:11pm
Post #38 of 64
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Which is important, because less explicit means, to me at least, less jarring. I think it was important to Tolkien, too. LotR has many "less explicit" versions of the language used in The Hobbit.
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Pryderi
Rivendell
Jun 16 2010, 1:07am
Post #40 of 64
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Bestrode? We be best ridden o' that Oi thinks.//
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PhantomS
Rohan
Jun 16 2010, 7:30am
Post #41 of 64
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Holding an academic chair means that you are the chief expert on the subject on which you are chair of. It's a custom adopted from the Al-Azhar University in Egypt, whose title 'Shiekh' equates to this kind of 'Professor'. Similarly to be a professor one has to be a research fellow and simultaneously teach for a number of years. I'm not sure if Tolkien actually did a doctorate in literature, but a PhD is not a prerequisite- all you have to be is a well-respected reader and researcher on the subject and vetted by fellow experts.
The idea that university lecturers are called Professors is something more North American , and is ,as has been stated in this thread, a job description and/or rank within the university. (In Italy and Spain however 'il professore' is used even for grade school teachers). To be a Professor in the UK one is expected to write lots of papers on their field, be supported by the university in question and be in a senior position as well. One who is not employed by a university is usually not a Professor and will be referred to as Mr. Mrs .Ms or in this age of TV and Internet, by their full name.
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 16 2010, 2:09pm
Post #42 of 64
(564 views)
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I finally understand the original question, as well as the answer.
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visualweasel
Rohan
Jun 16 2010, 2:11pm
Post #43 of 64
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Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
“On Fairy-stories” discussion 2008 – “Origins” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
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One Ringer
Tol Eressea
Jun 16 2010, 9:31pm
Post #44 of 64
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The only way to be a great writer
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is to break the rules here and there. Granted, it's best to refrain from making spelling errors, but in the end, if a writer makes something their own, and people respond to it well, then there's nothing to really complain about.
"Welcome. Wilkommen to Kino Das Bang Bang Boom Boom 1970 Gjong Hai Ich Habe Diese Nacht Wilkommen, 2004."
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Jun 16 2010, 11:37pm
Post #45 of 64
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There is actually a subtle difference between Dwarves and Dwarfs that Tolkien explained in one of the Appendixes in Lotr. Or maybe he was just covering his backside! But Tolkien said that the usage of Dwarves was an attempt by him to slightly distinguish his Dwarves from the fairy-tale Dwarfs of say, Snow White and the seven Dwarfs. Tolkien said that his Dwarves had a definite culture, society, were master craftsmen (craftsdwaves?) oh, and weren't too bad fighters as well. Perhaps he was putting his own personal stamp on the Dwarven species!
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 17 2010, 11:41am
Post #46 of 64
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That wouldn't explain The Hobbit.
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I'm not sure what you are referencing in the LotR appendices, but Tolkien was using "dwarves" long before Disney's film.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 17 2010, 12:24pm
Post #47 of 64
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Creativity and innovation mean breaking conventional rules. Hemingway was called a bad author at first for departing from the prevailing stilted language at the time and sounding more natural. Though he personally drives me crazy, ee cummings' refusal to capitalize when he should have was also considered a legitimate creative act, or poetic license, or whatever.
Sloppy grammar and spelling, as you say, are another issue. If it's sometimes Frodo or Frohdoe, or elves, elfs, elvs, or "Frodo weren't a lot happy the having Ring his on finger," those would be other issues.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jun 17 2010, 1:12pm
Post #48 of 64
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In Appendix F, Part II (Translation), Tolkien says that he uses the form dwarves to show that in his stories "something of their old character and power is still glimplesed, if already a little dimmed" and to "remove them a little, perhaps, from the siller tales of these latter days." He also notes that this is despite the fact that "the dictionaries tell us that the plural of dwarf is dwarfs." You can, of course, maintain that this is just Tolkien justifying his earlier "error" almost twenty years after the fact, but I continue to maintain that any assertion that Tolkien was at all unaware that "the dictionaries tell us that the plural of dwarf is dwarfs" at the time that he wrote The Hobbit is beyond the pale of belief. At least of my belief.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
www.arda-reconstructed.com
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Curious
Half-elven
Jun 17 2010, 3:32pm
Post #49 of 64
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that we still haven't accounted for his comment that he didn't notice it until reading the reviews for The Hobbit.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
Jun 17 2010, 4:25pm
Post #50 of 64
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Let's take another look at the statement:
No reviewer (that I have seen), although all have carefully used the correct dwarfs themselves, has commented on the fact (which I only became conscious of through reviews) that I use throughout the 'incorrect' plural dwarves. I am afraid it is just a piece of private bad grammar, rather shocking in a philologist; but I shall have to go on with it.
Looking at that statement as a whole, I think that the most reasonable interpretation of the words "which I only became conscious of through reviews" is that when he was writing the work (which of course at the time he was not even thinking of publishing) he automatically used his "private bad grammar" without even thinking of it, and only became conscious of the fact after seeing the reviews after the book was published. I really don't think that it would be reasonable to interpret those words as meaning he didn't know that the plural dwarves was "incorrect" until he saw the reviews, when the full statement is taken into account (and even less so when what we know about Tolkien and his obsession with language is taken into account).
Isn't it fun to have two lawyers present? 
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
www.arda-reconstructed.com
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