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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jun 30 2009, 5:13pm
Post #1 of 26
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The Gathering of the Clouds II - Close Encounters of the Avian Kind
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Sorry for the delay - it turns out that I am moving this week (never fails...)
The dwarves are startled by the thrush, who comes back, and seems to be trying to tell them something. They are upset, and worried, and other birds are gathering. Then the thrush returns again with an old raven. Apparently, the ravens were once friends of the dwarves, and messengers of them.
1. Dramatic irony: we know that Smaug is dead, and so do the birds, but for the moment, the dwarves and Bilbo don't. What is the literary purpose for using it here?
2. In Norse mythology, ravens are the messengers of the god Odin. Why did Tolkien choose to make this link between the Norse deities and the dwarves?
The raven is Röac, the son of Carc, and he addresses Thorin that there aren't many ravens in on the mountain anymore, but he is their cheif, and very, very, old (153 years!). There is good news and bad news, he says: (1) Smaug is dead (the thrush saw him die), and (2) armies of men and elves are converging on the mountain in hopes of acquiring some of the treasure!
3. Now that is an old bird - ravens usually live for decades in captivity, but not centuries. Was Tolkien intending for Röac to be an exceptionally old raven, old after all of his cohort are long dead, or are these special, Tolkienian ravens, and they live older than real-world ravens?
4. Ravens can learn to speak, rather like parrots. Comments?
5. Any comments on the names of Röac and Carc? Obviously, their names are similar to the sounds that ravens can make!
6. Are we surprised that others are moving to the mountain besides the birds? Do we (or the characters) take this as seriously as we should?
7. Are the elves marching to the mountain for their own reasons, or as allies of the men of Laketown?
8. Laketown was destroyed, as Röac declares, and its inhabitants want reparations. Do they really want reparations, or are they just greedy?
The paleobotanist is back!
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 30 2009, 6:36pm
Post #2 of 26
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The fate of the thrush is a loose end.
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We never learn where he was or what he was doing between Smaug's fall and his reappearance at the Lonely Mountain, we don't know what happens to him after he finds Röac, and we never learn the thrush's name -- even Röac just calls him the thrush.
1. Dramatic irony: we know that Smaug is dead, and so do the birds, but for the moment, the dwarves and Bilbo don't. What is the literary purpose for using it here?
Tolkien raises expectations that the dwarves will welcome the good news -- which they do -- but then throws Bilbo, at least, for a loop when Thorin reacts angrily to the rest of the news.
2. In Norse mythology, ravens are the messengers of the god Odin. Why did Tolkien choose to make this link between the Norse deities and the dwarves?
I'm not sure he did, or perhaps the ravens should be serving the Odin-like Gandalf. More significant, perhaps, are that ravens collect shiny objects, thus creating a link with the dwarves, and can be trained to speak like humans, thus allowing Bilbo to understand the conversation.
3. Was Tolkien intending for Röac to be an exceptionally old raven, old after all of his cohort are long dead, or are these special, Tolkienian ravens, and they live older than real-world ravens?
I get the impression that they are special ravens, since the dwarves do not seem overly surprised at Röac's age.
4. Ravens can learn to speak, rather like parrots. Comments?
Thus it is more plausible that they would speak Common, which Bilbo understands -- although the Eagles did too.
5. Any comments on the names of Röac and Carc? Obviously, their names are similar to the sounds that ravens can make!
I think you answered your own question.
6. Are we surprised that others are moving to the mountain besides the birds?
Not if we read the last chapter.
Do we (or the characters) take this as seriously as we should?
Perhaps not. Bilbo does not take it seriously. Thorin takes it too seriously.
7. Are the elves marching to the mountain for their own reasons, or as allies of the men of Laketown?
Yes.
8. Laketown was destroyed, as Röac declares, and its inhabitants want reparations. Do they really want reparations, or are they just greedy?
The Master is just greedy. The inhabitants want reparations. The Elvenking may mix a bit of both. I'm not sure Bard is as adamant about reparations as those he represents -- note that Bard quickly backs off his claim for reparations, and agrees to pay those out of his own share of the treasure.
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Jun 30 2009, 7:32pm
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As it happens, I’ve tackled this one before. But I am feeling lazy today, so I am just going to excerpt this in toto from my review of John Rateliff’s The History of The Hobbit (from Mythlore 101/102 [Spring/Summer 2008]):
Commenting on the Ravens of the Lonely Mountain, Carc and Roäc, Rateliff has relatively little to say, mainly emphasizing the sound of the names, citing Anderson’s comment that they are “marvelously onomatopoeic” (Annotated Hobbit 316). Another suggested link (622–3, note 5), the Old Norse hrafn, Old English hræfn “raven”, is an improvement, but there is still much to be said. Considering Tolkien’s choice of Norse names in the northeast Wilderland, surely Carc derives from Old Norse krákr “crow or raven” and Roäc from hrókr “rook” (a bird of the crow family). Tolkien even spells the ravens’ names Kark and Roäk at one point. Additionally, Carc find cognates among the Elven languages—probably under the direct influence of the Old Norse or the underlying Indo-European root (cf. Ancient Greek korax “raven”). Among these cognates, we have Gnomish crunc “crow” (PE11 27); Qenya karon “crow” (PE12 45); and the root KARKA “crow”, later emended to KORKA (Lost Road 362). Still later—subsequent to the publication of The Hobbit, but I provide them here for the sake of completeness—we find in the more developed Quenya quáko “crow” (Jewels 395), and of course the later Sindarin forms, craban and the plural crebain “crow, crows” (PE17 37), familiar to readers of The Lord of the Rings. All of this goes unmentioned by Rateliff. Following the text notes, in his short essay on ravens, Rateliff does mention Odin’s ravens, Hugin and Munin, as well as the traditions of the Völsunga Saga and the Fáfnismál, but he might also have mentioned the Krákumál (“The Lay of the Raven”), contained in the same codex as the Völsunga Saga. Perhaps a greater stretch, there is even the mythological Roc (from Persian rukh), immortalized in The Arabian Nights and in Marco Polo’s Travels.
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
“On Fairy-stories” discussion 2008 – “Origins” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
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sador
Gondolin
Jun 30 2009, 8:10pm
Post #4 of 26
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Is an obscure word for 'raven' in Hebrew (I guess nineteen out of twenty native Hebrew-speakers won't recognise it). It's source is Aramaic.
"We may not understand him, but that old bird understands us, I am sure." - Balin.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 30 2009, 9:17pm
Post #6 of 26
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Ravens are the most intelligent of all birds. National Geographic once quoted an ornithologist as saying that any anecdote that would be laughed off as impossible to any other bird might be seriously considered if it regarded a raven.
One way that this manifests is that not only can you teach a raven speech like a parrot--they sometimes understand what they're saying! They can, for instance, distinguish names as belonging to different people.
Interestingly, in European myths and legends, they tend to be bad guys, whereas in American Indian myths and legends, they tend to be good guys. Their bad reputation in Europe is because they (and crows) will flock to battlefields, knowing that they will soon have a chance to enjoy fresh meat. Their good reputation in America stems from their intelligence in solving problems.
This raven of Tolkien's tends to be morally ambiguous--like the dwarves themselves. He will not say whether Thorin's plan is a good one or a bad one, he will simply cooperate with whatever Thorin wants. After all, if it turns out badly, he can always fly out of danger's way! And come back for the spoils.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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GaladrielTX
Dor-Lomin
Jun 30 2009, 11:05pm
Post #8 of 26
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Who's there?
Not a raven.
1. Dramatic irony: we know that Smaug is dead, and so do the birds, but for the moment, the dwarves and Bilbo don't. What is the literary purpose for using it here?
To increase the dramatic tension and interest. However, another idea just occurred to me which I'll discuss in a moment.
2. In Norse mythology, ravens are the messengers of the god Odin. Why did Tolkien choose to make this link between the Norse deities and the dwarves?
I had never heard this before. If he chose it for that reason it had no effect on my reading.
3. Now that is an old bird - ravens usually live for decades in captivity, but not centuries. Was Tolkien intending for Röac to be an exceptionally old raven, old after all of his cohort are long dead, or are these special, Tolkienian ravens, and they live older than real-world ravens?
They are special ravens in that they actually communicate with the Dwarves so why not make them longer-lived? The wiser representatives of other races tend to be long-lived in Tolkien.
4. Ravens can learn to speak, rather like parrots. Comments?
The funny thing is I did not know this until a few years ago. I thought the raven in The Hobbit was just another example of Tolkien’s talking animals until I read Dicken’s introduction to his novel Barnaby Rudge. A raven named Grip has a fairly large part in the story. Dickens himself had a pet raven of which he was quite fond. In the introduction to the book, Dickens discusses ravens and their intelligence and ability to mock human speech.
Dicken's invented raven Grip inspired Edgar Allen Poe's raven in his poem "The Raven". In fact, the raven in the poem raps at the chamber door, just as Grip taps at the shutters in Barnaby Ridge.
I have occasionally wondered why Tolkien used both a thrush and a raven in The Hobbit when one bird might do just as well. I suddenly realized today that perhaps he wanted to avoid association with the ravens in Poe and Dickens so he avoided having a raven knock the snail against the wall in the chapter "On the Doorstep".
Because he had a thrush perform knocking duty on at the side door Tolkien then needed to have the thrush fetch the speaking raven to tell Thorin and company about Smaug's death. That results in the delay you were asking about in your first question.
Now I have to speculate why Tolkien didn't just have a talking thrush to begin with and no raven at all. Bard's ability to understand a bird that doesn't speak human speech does mark him as royalty so that's one thing. Also, having a mute thrush overhear Bilbo's observation about Smaug's weak spot and then fly off without saying anything keeps the Dwarves unsuspecting about future developments down in Lake-town. Any other ideas?
6. Are we surprised that others are moving to the mountain besides the birds?
I probably was.
Do we (or the characters) take this as seriously as we should?
Yes (and yes).
7. Are the elves marching to the mountain for their own reasons, or as allies of the men of Laketown?
Both.
8. Laketown was destroyed, as Röac declares, and its inhabitants want reparations. Do they really want reparations, or are they just greedy?
Both. They had hopes of great fortune from the quest even before the threat so there’s certainly greed involved. They never specified exactly what they expected from the Dwarves, leaving it unclear. They believe they have a blank check from the Dwarves that they should be able just to fill in. So much disaster could have been averted if they had only said when provisioning the Dwarves, “We will provide you with these things in exchange for” the treasure of Dale or whatever they felt they deserved. Instead, their elected representative just sent the Dwarves off with vague talk of getting something from them later.
~~~~~~~~
The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
(This post was edited by GaladrielTX on Jun 30 2009, 11:06pm)
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Doriath
Jul 1 2009, 6:01am
Post #9 of 26
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You'll find that Grip has some competition
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in the "Poe's inspiration" department if you come to Pennsylvania. Folks here believe the poem was written after a visit to a place called Raven Rock in Huntingdon County. He was taken there by writer/dramatist Richard Penn Smith (1799-1854)---grandson of the founder of Huntingdon (town), Rev. Dr. William Smith---after becoming friends in Philadelphia.
Both were probably inspirational.
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GaladrielTX
Dor-Lomin
Jul 1 2009, 10:11am
Post #10 of 26
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Next you'll be saying Penn is America's oldest university. ;o)
~~~~~~~~
The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 1 2009, 1:35pm
Post #11 of 26
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It's like a whole other country. 
(This post was edited by Curious on Jul 1 2009, 1:36pm)
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GaladrielTX
Dor-Lomin
Jul 1 2009, 5:23pm
Post #13 of 26
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Western Pennsylvanian. (“Alabaman.” :o) )
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How did you even KNOW that?
I must've written about it here before. I can't keep track of what I've said anymore. I probably tell stories over and over...just like my dad, come to think of it.
Speaking of which, did I ever tell the story of one of the last things my father said to me before he passed away?
He was too weak to speak in full voice, and he whispered something to my mother. She said she couldn’t understand him. So he beckoned to me.
As I put my ear close to his mouth, I heard him whisper, “She can’t understand me because she doesn’t speak Pennsylvanian.”
~~~~~~~~
The TORNsib formerly known as Galadriel.
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Eowyn of Penns Woods
Doriath
Jul 1 2009, 5:42pm
Post #14 of 26
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Yes, that's the story I remembered.
And I'm deeper into the "Alabama" territory than that. =)
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jul 2 2009, 3:18am
Post #15 of 26
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I don't think that anybody will argue that ravens are not among the most intelligent of birds, but the word "the" is a little.. strong!
The paleobotanist is back!
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Twit
Menegroth
Jul 2 2009, 9:11am
Post #16 of 26
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The Tower of London has ravens as legend states England will never be taken by a foreign invader if they ever leave. So they clip their wings so they can't fly away but are free to roam the tower - which according to wikipedia has hints of the legend of the king under the mountain.
(actually I can't help but think this is cheating a bit - maybe that's why King Arthur hasn't returned yet)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jul 2 2009, 3:37pm
Post #17 of 26
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Apparently animal behaviorists have put it to the test, and in laboratories, at least, corvids take the lead in intelligence among birds, and among the corvids, ravens take the lead.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Twit
Menegroth
Jul 3 2009, 8:35am
Post #18 of 26
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I like how the ravens set themselves apart from the (other) carrion birds following the armies. It makes sense that it is seen as at least an ambiguos creature, as they could signify intelligence and war. I vaguely remember reading some where that ancient seafarers used to take ravens and release them, if there was land it would head for it, easily spotted against the sky and they could follow it. If not it would come back.
I'm wondering if the thrush was 'sent' by a Higher Power, but what-ever higher power wanted to help, maybe they had to be seen to NOT be helping, if that makes any sort of sense. I mean it helps Bilbo, helps Bard, then helps the Dwarves by getting the Ravens, all without being introduced, it remains an it. Without it, what would have happened?
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jul 3 2009, 2:10pm
Post #19 of 26
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I hadn't thought about the thrush's anonymity like that. Good point!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Jul 4 2009, 1:59pm
Post #20 of 26
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It seems like everytime we have no time, more time is demanded ;) Hope the move has gone well!!
It always causes a jolt for me when we go back to the Company hiding in the tunnel after the dramatic death of Smaug. They don't know Smaug is gone. What? Oh yeah! Of course :D
It's amazing how quickly the word spread so the entire region knew in a very short time, but not those closest to the situation. No clue.
I think the Elves were on their way to Lake-town even before getting word from Bard. The news they'd received must have made it apparent that the town was completely devastated, so I'm thinking they were on their way not only to visit the treasure, but with the intention of becoming a rescue party for the townies.
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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sador
Gondolin
Jul 5 2009, 12:41pm
Post #21 of 26
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1. Dramatic irony: we know that Smaug is dead, and so do the birds, but for the moment, the dwarves and Bilbo don't. What is the literary purpose for using it here?
It left us hanging for 'Fire and Water'.
2. In Norse mythology, ravens are the messengers of the god Odin. Why did Tolkien choose to make this link between the Norse deities and the dwarves?
Are you sure he did? He used the ravens because they are intelligent birds.
I'm sure he knew ravens were the messengers of Odin - just like he knew that the ravens fed Elijah when he escaped King Ahab (Kings I 17:4-6). But his audience were more likely to get the second reference.
3. Now that is an old bird - ravens usually live for decades in captivity, but not centuries. Was Tolkien intending for Röac to be an exceptionally old raven, old after all of his cohort are long dead, or are these special, Tolkienian ravens, and they live older than real-world ravens?
Well, he looks very old.
But yes, he seems to have had an extraordinary long life. Not as long as the Eagles, though.
4. Ravens can learn to speak, rather like parrots. Comments?
Thanks for the information! I'll take more care next time I'm telling secrets!
5. Any comments on the names of Röac and Carc? Obviously, their names are similar to the sounds that ravens can make!
I answered that ealier this thread.
6. Are we surprised that others are moving to the mountain besides the birds?
No. Once the cat is dead, the mice move in.
Do we (or the characters) take this as seriously as we should?
I think so.
7. Are the elves marching to the mountain for their own reasons, or as allies of the men of Laketown?
At first they marched for their own reasons, but then they turned aside at the prayer of Bard, effectively renouncing their attempt to take the treasure and backing his claim instead.
Surely the wood-elves desevre the name 'good folk' Tolkien gives them in 'Flies and Spiders' - far more than anyone else in Tolkien's world!
8. Laketown was destroyed, as Röac declares, and its inhabitants want reparations. Do they really want reparations, or are they just greedy?
They want as much of the treasure they can get, and they resent the dwarves (thanks to the Master).
"We may not understand him, but that old bird understands us, I am sure." - Balin.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jul 5 2009, 3:17pm
Post #22 of 26
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I'm sure he knew ravens were the messengers of Odin - just like he knew that the ravens fed Elijah when he escaped King Ahab (Kings I 17:4-6). But his audience were more likely to get the second reference.
Unless Tolkien cared only about his fellow devout Christians - which neither The Hobbit nor LotR imply - there are a lot of people who would be more likely to know about Odin's ravens than a fairly obscure biblical reference. I imagine that most casual Christians are more likely to be aware of Norse mythology than what miracles saved Elijah...
The paleobotanist is back!
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sador
Gondolin
Jul 6 2009, 7:02am
Post #23 of 26
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I would expect people who do not immediately connect Tolkien to Norse folklore would more immediately relate to the Bible than to Norse mythology, and that two generations ago (when English society was far more Christian than today) even more so.
But that is just my feeling - other would be better qualified to say something on this subject than myself. FarFromHome, perhaps?
"We may not understand him, but that old bird understands us, I am sure." - Balin.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jul 7 2009, 1:31pm
Post #24 of 26
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but going just on my own education as an English Catholic child in the fifties, I would say that Old Testament stories such as the ravens feeding Elijah would not be references that a children's storyteller could assume would be recognized. I'm ashamed to say I wasn't familiar with this story at all until you mentioned it here. As I recall, children were rarely taught Old Testament stories beyond the obvious ones such as Moses in the bullrushes or Daniel in the lion's den. In contrast, every incident from the Gospels was made much of. (I don't know what Anglican children were taught, though, because English schools were strictly segregated.)
This doesn't mean, of course, that Tolkien himself wasn't inspired by this reference, since I have read that he was much more familiar with the Bible than most of his coreligionists probably were. And anyway, I don't suppose children would really know the Norse reference either - there's no need for the audience to consciously recognize a reference in order for them to feel its resonance, I think.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Curious
Gondolin
Jul 7 2009, 1:45pm
Post #25 of 26
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are attracted to shiny objects. That is specifically mentioned in the book, and the dwarves reward the ravens with such objects.
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