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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Jun 12 2009, 4:50pm
Post #1 of 25
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**Hobbit Discussion – Inside Information** Part 5 – Taaa-Daaa!
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Well... we've made it. The Company is in lockdown and Smaug's gone to pay Lake-town a visit. We've discovered what the Inside Information is (on various levels) and the dwarves have gotten what they wanted. They've finally entered their long-lost mountain home; although they're too scared to enter it. And Bilbo… he's singed, used up, and just wants to go home.
I'd like to offer a breakdown of 2 elements of this chapter. The treasure and the worm. Here are descriptions of both:
Description of the treasure:
Countless piles of precious things
Gold wrought and unwrought
Gems
Jewels
Silver
Helms and axes
Swords
Rows [of] great jars and vessels filled with a wealth that could not be guessed
Spears...for the armies of the great King Bladorthin...thrice-forged head and their shafts were inlaid with cunning gold
Shields made for warriors long dead
The great golden cup of Thror, two-handed, hammered and carven with birds and flowers who eyes and petals were of jewels;
Coats of mail gilded and silvered and impenetrable
The necklace of Girion, Lord of Dale, made of five hundred emeralds green as grass
A coat of dwarf-linked rings...wrought of pure silver to the power and strength of triple steel
The great white gem...the Heart of the Mountain...the Arkenstone of Thráin
I love how the part of the treasure is made up of armament… and it would be. Four of the pieces most desired are the mithril mail/shirt, the golden cup ,the emerald necklace, and the Arkenstone. Arms, gold, jewels and geml. Each appropriately represented.
Description of Smaug: A shopping list of what makes a dragon
[Dragons] Know their treasure
Great powers of deduction
Just approaching him:
A glow... It was a red light steadily getting redder and redder.
It was now undoubtedly hot in the tunnel.
Wisps of vapour floated up and past him and he began to sweat.
When at rest:
A sound... [a] throb in his ears
A bubbling like the noise of a large pot galloping on the fire
A rumble as of a gigantic tom-cat purring.
Gurgling noise of some vast animal snoring in its sleep
Thrumming from his jaws and nostrils when sleeping
Wisps of smoke [from his jaws and nostrils]
Fires low in slumber
[He's] turned partly to one side
Long pale belly crusted with gems and fragments of gold
Physical description:
A vast red-golden dragon
Under all his limbs, his huge coiled tail
Wings folded like a bat
Claws
[Powerful] Sense of smell
[Can] Feel [your] air
Half an eye open while sleeping [if suspicious]
Hint [of a] piercing ray of red from under a droohttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v434/grammaboodawg/TolkienRUGdragons.jpgping lid [left eye]
Senses finely tuned:
[Smells a] Strange air in the cave
I know the smell (and taste) of dwarf—no one better. Don't tell me that I can eat a dwarf-ridden pony and not know it!
Hears breath
And when he's riled:
Whirring noise
Soared blazing into the air
Fire belched forth
Spout of green and scarlet flame
Horrible sounds of Smaug's anger
Roaring like thunder
Rage passes description
First off… I don't think there's any room for debate as to whether or not this creature has wings. He flies and he folds up like a bat. ;)
Do you get the impression that Tolkien had quite a vivid picture in his mind of what Smaug looks like? Can you think of any other characters he's described in such detail?
As for the treasure… how did Smaug come by all of it? I mean, it's well-stated that he looted and stole, but could it be that dragons also receive treasure from nearby residents in exchange for not being attacked or eaten? Could it be he didn't leave the lair for so long because food was brought to him as well as treasure? I've always been of the impression Smaug swooped down, destroyed everything in sight and then set up housekeeping. But could there have been bribes paid and then the victims destroyed when they dried up in their offerings? Just something I've often wondered about. You'd think there'd be tales of it IF any of them had survived.
Bilbo and Smaug's debate back and forth reminds me of the Man in Black and Vizzini debate when he thinks he's being so witty and manipulating the situation.
Smaug (Vizzini): So, it is down to you, and it is down to me ... if you wish to steal more, by all means keep moving forward.
Bilbo (Man in Black): Let me explain ...
Smaug (Vizzini): There's nothing to explain. You're trying to burgle what I have rightfully stolen.
Bilbo (Man in Black): Oh no… I've simply come to check you out!
Smaug (Vizzini): Ahhh, is that all? You're stinking up my air.
Bilbo (Man in Black): Inhale, but do not touch! So… we are at an impasse.
Smaug (Vizzini): I'm afraid so. You can't compete with me physically, and I'm no match for your brains.
Bilbo (Man in Black): You think I'm that smart?
Smaug (Vizzini): Let me put it this way: You're careful to hide by riddling who you are. Truly, you have a dizzying intellect
Bilbo (Man in Black): Wait 'til I get going!! ... Where was I?
Smaug (Vizzini): Barrels.
Bilbo (Man in Black): Yes! O Smaug the Tremendous! The Chiefest and Greatest of Calamities! The unassessibly wealthy…
Smaug (Vizzini): You're just stalling now.
[I know... I changed it around a bit ;)]
OR the exchange between Inigo Montoya and the Man in Black as they duel above the Cliffs of Insanity! How boring would the story have been if Bilbo and Smaug's exchange had been like this?
Smaug (Inigo Montoya): Who are you?
Bilbo (Man in Black): No one of consequence.
Smaug (Inigo Montoya): I must know...
Bilbo (Man in Black): Get used to disappointment.
Smaug (Inigo Montoya): 'kay.
Here the link to some pictures of The Hobbit done by various artists and films that I posted during our 10th Anniversary Party.
WANTED: Last chance for sharing of any thoughts or comments.
Thank you so much for your patronage, and cheers to lurkers and participants alike. Your considerations are much appreciated.
CHEERS!
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
(This post was edited by grammaboodawg on Jun 12 2009, 4:52pm)
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 12 2009, 9:54pm
Post #2 of 25
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Do you get the impression that Tolkien had quite a vivid picture in his mind of what Smaug looks like?
Yes. But I get that impression more from his illustrations than from the text.
Can you think of any other characters he's described in such detail?
As with many of Tolkien's descriptions, the actual physical description is a bit skimpy -- A vast red-golden dragon with limbs, a huge coiled tail, wings folded like a bat, claws, breathes fire, and can talk. We don't even know how many limbs Smaug had based on the written description, as opposed to Tolkien's illustrations. We don't know the source of the red glow. We don't know any dimensions, whether Smaug is more like a snake or a dinosaur, whether Smaug's lips moved when he talked, whether he had fangs -- we don't know anything!
Yet it feels like a more detailed description because there are so many descriptive words, even though half of it is devoted to the treasure, and the rest to Smaug's knowledge, aura, emissions, personality, senses of smell and taste, etc. It also feels like a detailed description because we also have Tolkien's illustrations. I think the physical descriptions of several characters (Bilbo, Gandalf, Thorin, Bombur, Beorn, Gollum) are at least as detailed, if not more so.
As for the treasure… how did Smaug come by all of it? I mean, it's well-stated that he looted and stole, but could it be that dragons also receive treasure from nearby residents in exchange for not being attacked or eaten? Could it be he didn't leave the lair for so long because food was brought to him as well as treasure? But could there have been bribes paid and then the victims destroyed when they dried up in their offerings?
There's no mention of any of that.
How boring would the story have been if Bilbo and Smaug's exchange had been like this?
Smaug (Inigo Montoya): Who are you?
Bilbo (Man in Black): No one of consequence.
Smaug (Inigo Montoya): I must know...
Bilbo (Man in Black): Get used to disappointment.
Smaug (Inigo Montoya): 'kay.
That's the answer given to a conquered foe.
WANTED: Last chance for sharing of any thoughts or comments.
Throughout the book there are several images of getting swallowed or buried. This chapter is the perhaps the culmination of those images, as the entire party is buried alive, with no idea whether they will ever get out again. However, they are saved by the fact that they choose to bury themselves before the dragon buries them. Perhaps the question is whether they can be reborn, or whether they will be lured by the treasures of the underworld. Smaug is, I think, a Satanic figure, with powers of seduction that remind me of the Ring or Saruman in LotR, but also powers of sheer destruction resembling a volcanic eruption.
All that being said, in this chapter Smaug is also tricked by Bilbo, and frustrated by him when he cannot find the entrance to the tunnel. Smaug doesn't come across as quite as formidable as Glaurung -- and we learn that Smaug is not only vulnerable to flattery but also has a glaring weak spot in his chest armor of which he seems unaware.
The unsung hero of the chapter is, I submit, not Bilbo -- after all, the whole book is about Bilbo -- but the thrush, who helped the party find the entrance and now has taken Bilbo's information to the one person who can make use of it. It's unusual that at the climax of this tale, two other characters, Bard and Beorn, step in to save the day. Bilbo does his best, and his information aids Bard, but it is Bard who kills the dragon and Beorn who turns the tide at the Battle of Five Armies. The thrush and Eagles also have roles to play. From this point on, Bilbo does very little -- oh, he tries to do something with the Arkenstone, but it takes an attack of the orcs to truly unite the free peoples.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 13 2009, 5:06am
Post #3 of 25
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Thanks for a most colorful and picturesque presentation! And by the way, when I suddenly saw, above and to the left of my computer, an iguana peeping at me around a shutter after entering a window that doesn't quite close, I thought of you!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jun 13 2009, 10:01am
Post #4 of 25
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The unsung hero of the chapter is, I submit, not Bilbo -- after all, the whole book is about Bilbo -- but the thrush, who helped the party find the entrance and now has taken Bilbo's information to the one person who can make use of it.
I like it. Yes, the thrush in the door-opening scene seemed to be "just a thrush", unaware of the crucial part he was playing in the foretold magical set-piece.
Now in this chapter we find that there was more to him that met the eye - and that the thrush knew what was going on all the time!
And, as you say, he's now going to play a crucial part in the defeat of the dragon. Which means we need to go back and reassess our first impressions of this "unsung hero". A very Tolkien way of telling a story.
As with many of Tolkien's descriptions, the actual physical description is a bit skimpy -- A vast red-golden dragon with limbs, a huge coiled tail, wings folded like a bat, claws, breathes fire, and can talk. We don't even know how many limbs Smaug had based on the written description...
Good point. As he so often does, Tolkien leaves a lot of the details for the individual reader to fill in. He gives us the impressions we need - the sense of wonder and danger, the strangely compelling lure of all that glittering treasure - and leaves the rest to our imaginations. And it works - we all think we know exactly what the dragon looks like, without noticing that a lot of that comes from inside our own heads.
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled, the sigh and murmur of the Sea
upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 13 2009, 5:17pm
Post #5 of 25
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to have an immortal visit the Reading Room!
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jun 13 2009, 8:39pm
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So, here's the question, why is the thrush such an unsung hero in this chapter? Why did Tolkien decide to do it this way? Was he getting caught up in his own thoughts of epic worldbuilding again?
The paleobotanist is back!
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Jun 14 2009, 2:52am
Post #7 of 25
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It is quite an honor! 
(And you're not too far away from being half there, yourself...!)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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dernwyn
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Jun 14 2009, 2:55am
Post #8 of 25
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...you live in an awesome environment! A dragon's cousin paid you a visit!
(All I get are the chipmunks the cat drags in...)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Jun 14 2009, 3:18am
Post #9 of 25
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Rateliff points out that this Thrush initially only existed to help with the Door-opening, but then Tolkien "expanded his role in two crucial respects": bringing the information about Smaug to Bard, and bringing Röac to the Dwarves.
"...he remains an extremely minor character without whom the major events of the story could not occur - a perfect example of the 'small hands turning the wheels of the world', as Tolkien put it."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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dernwyn
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Jun 14 2009, 3:32am
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I do like that pic of all of them in a tumble on Bilbo's doorstep!  Thank you for that link again, gramma!
And thank you for leading us this week! That breakdown of the descriptions shows us why it is we can "feel" the Dragon, and begin to understand the immensity of the treasure. The name "King Bladorthin" gives me another chuckle, as "Bladorthin" was the original name of the wizard known better as Gandalf.
I think much of the treasure was already within the Mountain; and the rest Smaug stole from Dale, during those days when he made forays into that town to snack on any remaining warm flesh.
Now, why do I have an urge to watch Princess Bride again?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 14 2009, 4:09am
Post #11 of 25
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I think the thrush, like the Eagles,
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is a tool of "luck" or, if you read between the lines, Fate, Destiny, Providence, or Divine Intervention.
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sador
Gondolin
Jun 14 2009, 6:27am
Post #12 of 25
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Rather than a chuckle, he is a puzzle.
Yes, I understand the joke of his being Gandalf's old name - but after all, in UT I think Christopher Tolkien mentions Dorwinion and Queen Beruthiel as two completely unexplained hints in the published books.
Dowinion we know a bit about, and there is a small story about Queen Beruthiel as Tarannon Falastur's wife (one wonders, why did Tolkien have such an aversion to cats? Or did he? As far as I remember, Darkstone didn't discuss that in his immortal analysis of the poem).
But - is there anywhere that King Bladorthin is discussed?
And what is the significance of the spears being thrice-forged?
"In that case you may, perhaps, not altogether waste your time." - Smaug
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sador
Gondolin
Jun 14 2009, 6:29am
Post #13 of 25
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Sorry for not participating more - and I hope you won't take revenge on me this coming week.
"In that case you may, perhaps, not altogether waste your time." - Smaug
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Jun 14 2009, 12:29pm
Post #15 of 25
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OH MY! It seems I've got a booboo that's taken me too long to fix. *sigh*
It was supposed to be:
http://img.photobucket.com/...olkienRUGdragons.jpg
[Powerful] Sense of smell
[Can] Feel [your] air
Half an eye open while sleeping [if suspicious]
Hint [of a] piercing ray of red from under a drooping lid [left eye]
... but the pic was used elsewhere. So there you have it! Haste makes for a sloppy job ;) Still... I really love this pic!! All's well that ends better :)
Thanks Curious! *high five*
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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sador
Gondolin
Jun 14 2009, 12:30pm
Post #16 of 25
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Very Interesting. Thank you! //
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"In that case you may, perhaps, not altogether waste your time." - Smaug
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Jun 14 2009, 12:49pm
Post #17 of 25
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That's one of the things I like
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about this story. Characters who would be considered secondary or peripheral become pivotal to Bilbo's survival... and to Gandalf's.
The Thrush. What could be considered the most insignificant changes everything. Sort of like a particular moth in a movie ;)
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Jun 14 2009, 12:53pm
Post #18 of 25
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Peep-a-who? ;) Thanks Dreamdeer //
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"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Jun 14 2009, 12:54pm
Post #19 of 25
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*signed* Eternally yours ;) Thanks for everything, Curious //
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"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Jun 14 2009, 1:03pm
Post #20 of 25
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I'm SO GLAD the Good Professor thought better of it. But I'm delighted that he's loyal to his creations and included him anyway ;)
Thanks so much, dernwyn. *bows deeply*
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Jun 14 2009, 1:15pm
Post #21 of 25
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I couldn't even participate as much as I wanted to! *shakes head* These past few months have been insane... so I'm looking forward to getting caught up with things long gone.
Cheers, and I SO look forward to your leadership!!! STEADY ON!
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Jun 14 2009, 7:22pm
Post #22 of 25
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Thank you!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Jun 15 2009, 1:07am
Post #23 of 25
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And a very plausible UUT. Thank you for finding this!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Twit
Menegroth
Jun 15 2009, 12:06pm
Post #24 of 25
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to me (now I have finished the book) seems to have been waiting for his moment of glory, in a similar way to the people who light the beacons in LotR.
Perhaps the thrush's great great (?) grandparents started the tradition of using the door as an anvil to bash the snails with, and told their fledglings to be on the look out for returning Dwarves, help them find the door and then hang around in case they needed to tell (Bard) some-one.
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*grabs first-aid kit*
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