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batik
Dor-Lomin
May 2 2009, 5:08am
Post #1 of 22
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Out of the Frying-Pan into the Fire: Final comments...
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Quite a paragraph…this final one in Out of the Frying-Pan into the Fire. Worth the full quote, folks.
So ended the adventure of the Misty Mountains. Soon Bilbo’s stomach was feeling full and comfortable again, and he felt he could sleep contentedly, though really he would have liked a loaf and butter better than bits of meat roasted on sticks. He slept curled up on the hard rock more soundly than ever he had done on his featherbed in his own little hole at home. But all night he dreamed of his own house and wandered in his sleep into all his different rooms looking for something that he could not find nor remember what it looked it. Within all the alliteration, assonance, imagery, and rhyme, Tolkien delivers a sense of stillness, a little humor—then, leaves us wondering…what is Bilbo looking for?
Shhhh…don’t tell but I’m gonna ask you RR regulars (and lurkers, too)—
Within this chapter—what’s filmable? what’s not? what’s necessary? what’s not? and what do you really, really, really wish (or hope) to see in the film? ***********pick three, rank them or discuss as you will******
Here are some of the events: - Bilbo’s stealthy approach
- His surprise entrance and the reaction of Gandalf and the dwarves
- The flashback(s)—Dori’s, Bilbo’s, and/or Gandalf’s
- Moving on-- then quickly going down the hillside
- Entering the glade and reckoning something’s wrong
- Scrambling up the trees
- Arrival of the wargs and subsequent flaming pinecones
- Arrival and reaction of the goblins (with or with songs?)
- Lord of the Eagle pre flight and in flight
- Rescue
- Bilbo’s flight and landing
- Gandalf’s conversation with the Lord of the Eagles
- A meal
- Bilbo’s not so peaceful sleep
Of course the *floor* is open for any elements of the chapter you would like to address.
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Curious
Gondolin
May 2 2009, 9:41am
Post #2 of 22
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Perhaps Bilbo is looking for his lost "respectability."
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This is a story of how a Baggins had an adventure, and found himself doing and saying things altogether unexpected. He may have lost the neighbours’ respect, but he gained – well, you will see whether he gained anything in the end.
Bilbo has undergone his transformation. He is now a Burglar. He has gained something, and he has lost something. He will never be the same. Perhaps, in his dream, he is looking for the old stick-in-the-mud, predictable, respectable, prosey, boring Bilbo, never to be seen again.
Interestingly, he has not lost his sense of comfort. On the contrary, he has gained the ability to sleep more comfortably on a narrow rock high in the mountains more comfortably than he ever did on his featherbed back home.
Within this chapter—what’s filmable? what’s not? what’s necessary? what’s not? and what do you really, really, really wish (or hope) to see in the film?
I doubt that they will show the flashbacks as flashbacks. But they can show those events in real time.
I think they might have trouble showing the Eagles speaking English. Gandalf can communicate with the Eagles without showing the Eagles talking in English.
They might also have trouble showing the dream. I don't think they filmed any of the dreams from LotR. But they might add different dreams or visions relating to the Ring, and the visions they showed in Jackson's films when Frodo touched or wore the Ring. Will Bilbo see the Eye?
Apparently they are going to say much more about the Necromancer in the film than Tolkien does in the book, making it clear that the Necromancer is Sauron, and showing the White Council drive him from Dol Guldur. So perhaps they will also make it clear that the ring is the Ring. Perhaps Bilbo will see the Eye.
The most filmable part of the chapter, and the most iconic sequence of events, is the last portion, including the confrontation with the wolves and goblins, complete with firey pine cones and burning trees, ending with the Eagles' rescue, and Bilbo holding on for dear life until they reach the Eyrie. I can't say they won't take liberties with it, but I'm quite sure they will include it in some fashion.
Also, although they may not film the discussion of what happened, they should film the dwarves debating whether to return to the tunnels for Bilbo, Bilbo sneaking past Balin and appearing in the midst of the party, Bilbo choosing not to say anything about the Ring, and Gandalf giving him a queer look.
The long slide down the side of the mountain is optional. It could be quite good on film, but I wouldn't miss it too much if they chose to leave it out.
(This post was edited by Curious on May 2 2009, 9:50am)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 2 2009, 3:34pm
Post #3 of 22
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I love what you say about Bilbo's dream!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Reptile
Ossiriand
May 2 2009, 5:31pm
Post #4 of 22
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The influence of the ring on Bilbo's subconscious
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I found the dream of Bilbo kind of unsettling. My first reaction was that the dream had something to do with the ring looking for its master, or the master looking for the ring.
Regarding what's filmable and what's not, I think they can put just about anything on film, but it's going to be hard to make any of the scenes involving talking animals come out right. I just think that would be really hard to do without sounding corny. Maybe if they just have them making some animal noises and then have Gandalf translate for the dwarves, or perhaps subtitles, though that might be even cornier.
The three scenes I'm most looking forward to are: the scramble down the rock slide; the scene in the glade, with the goblins and wargs taunting and Gandalf working up his fireworks (hope the singing isn't too corny); and the Eagles' rescue.
"If you listen closely, you can hear the gods laughing."
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sador
Gondolin
May 3 2009, 7:17am
Post #5 of 22
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A few answers, some to the point
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What is Bilbo looking for?
I prefer Reptile's answer to Curious' - but not in the Ring looking for it's master, but in echoing Gollum's search for the Ring.
Bilbo’s stealthy approach
Could be fun; but quite unneccsary.
His surprise entrance and the reaction of Gandalf and the dwarves
Would be nice. Especially if concentrating on Gandalf's reaction.
The flashback(s)—Dori’s
I think this is important, and could be only done by flashback.
Bilbo’s
Only if they want to go into the character arc of Bilbo beginning to lie.
Gandalf’s
Unnessary - definitely here. It could somehow be incorporated into the White Council stuff.
Moving on-- then quickly going down the hillside
Totally unnecessary, but great fun.
If PJ will be in charge, we are likely to see it - he can't resist this kind of stuff. I don't know del Toro enough to answer for him.
Entering the glade and reckoning something’s wrong
Nope. There's no Legolas to do that for them.
Scrambling up the trees
Arrival of the wargs and subsequent flaming pinecones
Arrival and reaction of the goblins (with or with songs?)
All three must be in, of course!
The songs are questionable - like with the elves in Rivendell, but here it seems more appropriate.
Lord of the Eagle pre flight and in flight
I don't think we'll see that, and won't really miss it.
Rescue
Of course!
Bilbo’s flight and landing
A bit of comic relief. The movie could do without it.
Gandalf’s conversation with the Lord of the Eagles
I don't think we will. Why complicate with the strained Eagles-Men relationship?
But the earier references to the woodmen should be made, as they will help understand Beorn.
A meal
Depends on how much they want to underscore the food theme.
Bilbo’s not so peaceful sleep
The dream can't fit in. A pity.
But Bilbo's sleeping fitfully is a recurring theme in the book - in the goblin's Front Porch, in Beorn's hall, arguably in Mirkwood (before the spiders got him).
In fact, Bombur might have realised this pattern, which was why he accepted Bilbo's claim of being unable to sleep (in 'A Thief in the Night') - but he anyway seemed to be overjoyed at the prospect of being allowed to sleep himself, he might not have noticed.
Thanks for leading this week, batik!
And also for this last thread. It's unlikely that the moviemakers will ask for my opinions on the coming project - so I'm glad someone did.
"What is all this uproar in the forest tonight?" - the Lord of the Eagles
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 4 2009, 3:03am
Post #6 of 22
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Matches for his pipe and tobacco.
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What is Bilbo looking for [in his dream]?
Bilbo is back in a "tunnel", searching for matches to light a pipeful of tobacco.
Of course, in his dream he also cannot recall his pipe and tobacco; so he only knows he needs some sort of item which had gone missing in his waking life, but not what, and not why. But he is searching for an item of comfort in his comfortable home.
It may be that this is how his unconscious is helping him process the terror he experienced in the tunnel, and the more recent fear of fire.
Let the Films begin! Quite necessary to the plot would be:
- The flashbacks, which could be shown real-time instead, cutting the camera between scenes. For example: Dori grabbed, Bilbo falling, Gandalf leading the way out, Bilbo unconscious in the dark, the Dwarves in the sunlight, Bilbo coming to in the dark.
- The trees/wargs/goblins is one continuous scene. And the songs would somehow have to be incorporated, else how could part of Gandalf's stalling in order for all the Dwarves to appear on Beorn's step, be Beorn's reaction to the "fifteen birds in five fir-trees" song?
- Eagles pre-, during, and post-flight. The Lord of the Eagles need not "speak"; eye movement and gestures are all that are needed to indicate his interest in the noise in the forest, maybe even a slight upturn at the edges of his beak as he realizes it's the wargs and goblins - and panic in his eyes as he recognizes Gandalf.
Thank you for a most interesting discussion, batik! It's made me pay more attention to Tolkien's writing style in this book!
...In honor of
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......TORN's annual
......Founder's Day Celebration
...........Established 4/26/09
...Corvar, Xoanon, Tehanu, Calisuri.....LARGER IMAGE
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batik
Dor-Lomin
May 4 2009, 4:01am
Post #7 of 22
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(hmm, replying to myself?) No... a big thanks to all of you...
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for taking part in the discussion. Once again- I am amazed by how amazed I am with Tolkien's writing. 
(This post was edited by batik on May 4 2009, 4:03am)
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sador
Gondolin
May 4 2009, 5:05am
Post #8 of 22
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And it often seems he approaches his own questions as if they were totally new.
I wish I could in my discussions!
"It was a good story, that of yours, but I like it still better now I am sure it is true." - Beorn
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 4 2009, 3:19pm
Post #9 of 22
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I wasn't sure about what a host should do regarding answering questions.
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I really, really wanted to answer my own questions when I led "The Choices of Master Samwise" but felt obliged to restrain myself. To what extent should a discussion leader participate after asking the initial questions? I feel uncertain, and as I'm taking on the same role next week, the question becomes increasingly important to me.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 4 2009, 3:20pm
Post #10 of 22
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Thank you, Batik. You did a fine job. I did not participate as much as I wanted to, on account of real life shouldering in on my computer-time, but I enjoyed your presentation.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
May 4 2009, 3:49pm
Post #11 of 22
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I figure if I let other people go first, it's okay for me to add my two cents worth. And no one has ever complained.
The other issue is whether to comment on everyone's answers. Again, I've seen some discussion leaders respond to everyone, and others stay out completely, and a range in between. I don't recall anyone complaining one way or another. So I think you should do what you want, and not worry about how it will be received.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 4 2009, 3:56pm
Post #12 of 22
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Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
May 4 2009, 8:15pm
Post #13 of 22
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I doubt that they will show the flashbacks as flashbacks. But they can show those events in real time.
Yes, I agree. The flashback style of telling a story in film went out of vogue with the film noir's of the 40's & the 50's......
Bogart has one film with a 'flashback within a flashback within a flashback'. - Audiences nowadays would never be able to keep up with that.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
May 5 2009, 2:22pm
Post #14 of 22
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"There and back again."
-Herakleitos of Ephesus, c. 500 BC
Within all the alliteration, assonance, imagery, and rhyme, Tolkien delivers a sense of stillness, a little humor—then, leaves us wondering…what is Bilbo looking for?
He’s looking for a way out of this mess.
“Sometimes the way forward is the way back.”
-Jim Henson, T.S. Eliot, and Herakleitos of Ephesus
Bilbo’s stealthy approach
Filmable, cross cut with the discussion between Gandalf and the dwarves. Though it could be left out, with us last seeing Bilbo trying to flee the goblin guards, so his sudden appearance is a surprise to the audience as well.
His surprise entrance and the reaction of Gandalf and the dwarves
This is a cinematic moment, so no way it could be cut.
Though it would be interesting if Bilbo’ s sudden appearance could be made a surprise to the audience as well.
The flashback(s)—Dori’s, Bilbo’s, and/or Gandalf’s
It’d be best crosscut in parallel as it happened, like with the Treachery of Isengard in FOTR, though some book fans objected to that approach. (Hello, NEB!)
Moving on-- then quickly going down the hillside
A nice homage to the “shortcut to mushrooms” tumble down the hillside in the FOTR film. (Though I hope this time there will be no broken bones among the stuntmen.)
Entering the glade and reckoning something’s wrong
I’m sure schlockmeister Jackson will want to play this for all it’s worth, like in FOTR with the Vertigo Zoom just before the appearance of the Black Rider, or Gandalf’s hand out the darkness in Bag End.
Scrambling up the trees
Yes. The Fangorn scene in TTT with M&P scrambling up the trees was very effective.
Arrival of the wargs and subsequent flaming pinecones
Despite any quibbles about their appearance, the arrival of the wargs in TTT was very well done.
New Line ordered Jackson to tone down M&P’s perhaps rather overdone rock throwing at Amon Hen, but since he’s been given carte blanche it may become a Shield Surfing moment. One can readily imagine one or more “Prince of Thieves” missile POV shots like with Legolas’ arrow during the Stairs of Moria sequence. Some fans love that sort of thing, while others fold their arms and frown furiously.
I do note Jackson had Bag End strewn with pinecone décor.
Arrival and reaction of the goblins (with or with songs?)
Jackson filmed this sort of thing three ways in FOTR. The arrival of the orcs at the Chamber of Mazarbul was done suspensefully. The swarming of the orcs out of the walls and ceiling and floors during the flight to the bridge of Khazadum was definitely a grand gonzo moment. And the sudden appearance of the Uruks at Amon Hen was a big shocker.
So which one will Jackson choose? Or will there be a fourth?
Lord of the Eagle pre flight and in flight
I don’t think the preflight stuff would suit the film. A big surprise swoop, like with the Eagles’ sudden appearance at The Black Gate, would be just awesome.
I’m hoping they’ll add in a heralding appearance by “The Moth Guy” as a nod to us Trilogy Fans.
Rescue
This is going to be a big crowd-pleasing frantic scene, like with the race to the Bridge of Khazadum, or the battle of Amon Hen.
Bilbo’s flight and landing
Jackson handled Frodo’s flight quite poetically. This would be lighter, of course, but still a big post-climactic moment.
Gandalf’s conversation with the Lord of the Eagles
One recalls Aragorn’s conversation on the flets with Haldir in FOTR-EE. Bilbo would mainly be concerned with catching his breath while the audience strained to hear what the conversation was about.
A meal
This might be composited with Gandalf’s conversation
Bilbo’s not so peaceful sleep
Jackson might pull a more schlockmeister “JUMP!” moment, like Bilbo finding the Goblin King in the cupboard. Or maybe some foreboding of the Evil of the Ring, like seeing a big honking flaming eyeball peeking in through the window. Or a Newhart moment, waking up safe in his bed, then turning over and finding Lobelia Sackville-Baggins next to him. Or the ultimate horror, finding there’s no food in Bag End.
One homage to the FOTR film would be a hand coming out of the darkness of Bag End behind him, and then waking up to find Gandalf shaking his shoulder.
I'm wondering of the elements from The Hobbit that Tolkien reused in LOTR will be more noticeable on the big screen?
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Curious
Gondolin
May 5 2009, 4:16pm
Post #15 of 22
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"'It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out of your door,'
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he used to say. 'You step onto the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to.'" (Frodo, talking about Bilbo in "Three Is Company," I believe.)
Roads go ever ever on,
Over rock and under tree,
By caves where never sun has shone,
By streams that never find the sea;
Over snow by winter sown,
And through the merry flowers of June,
Over grass and over stone,
And under mountains of the moon.
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star,
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.
Bilbo, from the last chapter of The Hobbit.
potamw`i gar out evstin embh`nai di tw`i autw`i. .... skivdnhsi kai pavlin sunavgei.....kai provseisi kai avpeisi
[You cannot step twice into the same river, for other waters and yet others go ever flowing on. They go forward and back again.]
Hereclitus of Ephesus.
I’m hoping they’ll add in a heralding appearance by “The Moth Guy” as a nod to us Trilogy Fans.
Now that you mention it, won't they have to show something of the kind? To portray Gandalf as helpless might be difficult after the way he was portrayed in the LotR movies. Fans of the movies would ask why he didn't just sent the Eagles a moth.
(This post was edited by Curious on May 5 2009, 4:17pm)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 5 2009, 4:22pm
Post #16 of 22
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Especially since moths are attracted to flames! Hey, Gandalf might have rescued a kamikaze moth, whispered to it, and sent it off to find the eagles, and moths would yearly pass on the story to every generation.
(Come to think of it, one could conceivably add that to the circumstantial evidence of Gandalf's fire-maia status, if one accepts movie material.  He attracts moths.)
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on May 5 2009, 4:23pm)
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
May 5 2009, 4:32pm
Post #17 of 22
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I think it is very important to remember that Tolkien had an education in the classics. And so we products of a modern education system might miss a lot of references that he would think were obvious.
And you're right about a helpless Gandalf. If, as rumors would have it, Gandalf is going to be shown as going head-to-head against the Necromancer and bringing down the stones of Dol Guldur, it's going to be tough balancing that against someone who is stymied by a pack of wolves.
That apparently irreconcilable dichotomy is exactly why I'd rather have all that non-Hobbit stuff in a separate bridge film rather than cram it all in a bloated two-part extravaganza Hobbit movie that includes the kitchen sink of The White Council.
Sure, a bridge film may be a bad idea, but I think a two part Hobbit is probably going to be far worse.
But one can hope.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
May 5 2009, 5:05pm
Post #18 of 22
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Gandalf doesn't singlehandedly tear down the necromancer--he's got Saruman, Galadriel, Elrond, and Cirdan all working with him simultaneously. Now that's a cinematic moment I'd like to see!
As for the Hobbit battle with the Wargs, I can just see him cussing himself out afterwards for not remembering this or that that could have saved his smoked ham. But then you try remembering complicated spells after days without food. I suppose in his assigned body he can feel a blood sugar crash like anybody else.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
May 5 2009, 8:36pm
Post #19 of 22
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Just imagine your back in your own bed
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with a nice soft mattress and a lovely feather pillow. Nope, didn't even last long enough to long for a feather pillow! zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
I think the time period between getting caught by the goblins and finally eating with the eagles was the hardest on Bilbo. Yeah, there were some pretty harrowing moments, but to go through ALL of the gollum, warg, flames, eagles and heights on an empty stomach... so much so that you're almost swooning... was nasty. But I still love how his thoughts keep him at home. So very hobbity.
Oh my!!! What do I want in the film!!??? *spasm* I'll put stars at the end of my hopes and wishes ;)
- Bilbo’s stealthy approach ***
- His surprise entrance and the reaction of Gandalf and the dwarves ***
- The flashback(s)—Dori’s, Bilbo’s, and/or Gandalf’s
- Moving on-- then quickly going down the hillside
- Entering the glade and reckoning something’s wrong ***
- Scrambling up the trees ***
- Arrival of the wargs and subsequent flaming pinecones ***
- Arrival and reaction of the goblins (with or with songs?) *** (sans songs, thankyou)
- Lord of the Eagle pre flight and in flight (nahhh... just swoop in and snag 'em)
- Rescue ***
- Bilbo’s flight and landing ***
- Gandalf’s conversation with the Lord of the Eagles
- A meal
- Bilbo’s not so peaceful sleep
Thanks lots, batik. Most excellent walk through the chapter!
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 5 2009, 9:11pm
Post #20 of 22
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Now we know the real reason Círdan gave him that ring: he was tired of all the bugs following him around!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Aug 10 2009, 4:39am
Post #21 of 22
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"They guard it always and no one has ever managed to block it up."
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Late questions: Who has tried to block the goblin's gate? And other than engaging a giant to drop a boulder in front of it, how would it be done?
Thanks batik!
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We're discussing The Hobbit in the Reading Room, Mar. 23 - Aug. 9. Everyone is welcome!
And sign up now for The Silmarillion!
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sador
Gondolin
Aug 10 2009, 6:49am
Post #22 of 22
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If he considered the woodsmen his people, he might have tried; but did he at this stage? Or who does the 'we' in "one day we shall come back" mean?
On the other hand, there was one Gate in the Mountains which was blocked - the Moria West-gate, by the Watcher.
Hardly a decent giant!
"You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you" - Gandalf.
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