|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Arwen's daughter
Gondolin
Apr 19 2009, 7:50am
Post #1 of 14
(1287 views)
Shortcut
|
|
**Over Hill and Under Hill** - Part 7: ...and remembered nothing more.
|
Can't Post
|
|
Onward the party goes, hearing goblin noises and footfalls closer and closer behind them. Bilbo rides on Bombur’s back and again on Dori’s, being so slow that he’s holding the group back. As Bilbo once again complains about leaving his hobbit hole, Bombur complains about bringing “a wretched little hobbit on a treasure hunt.”
How far have they gone that Bilbo is being carried by different dwarves?
Is Bombur just commiserating with Bilbo or does he really mean something by this? Is it important that it’s Bombur who says this instead of Dori, Thorin, or any of the others?
Gandalf and Thorin turn to face the goblins, with an “about turn” command from Gandalf. However, upon seeing Beater and Biter, the goblins retreat in hasty confusion. But not for long. They slip on soft shoes and send their best scouts after the party. Dori, who is holding Bilbo, is knocked down, with Bilbo tumbling off into unconsciousness.
Is Gandalf playing the role of military commander?
Are goblins not so scary after all? Are they all talk
and no fight?
This is the first time we’ve had a serious cliff-hanger at the end of a chapter. Is there a reason more than just a matter of space and time?
My LiveJournal
My Costuming Site
TORn's Costume Discussions Archive
The Screencap of the Day Schedule for April
|
|
|
sador
Gondolin
Apr 19 2009, 8:30am
Post #2 of 14
(1161 views)
Shortcut
|
|
A few answers, some to the point
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Just wondering - what's the time of the day where you live just now?
How far have they gone that Bilbo is being carried by different dwarves?
Far enough. But had it been regular rotation, it would take a very long time to get back to Dori. I expect he was just asking Bombur for a little help, as they seem to have been both in the rear.
Is Bombur just commiserating with Bilbo or does he really mean something by this?
Not commiserating, no. He is a comic counterpart.
Is it important that it’s Bombur who says this instead of Dori, Thorin, or any of the others?
Dori will echo Bilbo's moan "my arms!" by groaning "my feet!" in two chapters' time. So it should be someone else. And as I've said before, Bombur is near and handy.
Is Gandalf playing the role of military commander?
Yes.
Are goblins not so scary after all?
To a hobbit, or to a child, they are. To a wizard they aren't really.
Are they all talk and no fight?
Well, they were taken by surprise! And Tolkien's description of them before implies they are really dangerous, and he says they had terrible wars with both elves and dwarves.
But the description in 'Out of the Frying-pan Into the Fire' does leave an impression of goblins as wimps - just think - with the advantage of surprise, they don't manage to even injure one of the attacked!
This is the first time we’ve had a serious cliff-hanger at the end of a chapter. Is there a reason more than just a matter of space and time?
Before, Tolkien couldn't; it was a children's story.
Three chapters later, the child has grown up. 
More seriously - now we are in the Wild. Before, adventures were just nasty things which could make you late for supper; now we are in for real adventure.
Thanks for a wonderful week! I love this chapter, and you did an excellent job with it.
"In fact I should like to know all about you. Not that it will do you much good" - the Great Goblin
(This post was edited by sador on Apr 19 2009, 8:31am)
|
|
|
Elven
Doriath
Apr 19 2009, 11:42am
Post #3 of 14
(1085 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Some thoughts ... and remembered nothing more ...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
How far have they gone that Bilbo is being carried by different dwarves?
Id say they were moving at a fair pace - far enough in front of the Goblins to pass Bilbo to another Dwarve before they 'rolled' on again.
Is Bombur just commiserating with Bilbo or does he really mean something by this? Is it important that it’s Bombur who says this instead of Dori, Thorin, or any of the others?
I thought it funny that the comment was 'Why, O why did I ever bring a wretched Hobbit on a treasure hunt' ... as if it was Bombur exclusively who had brought Mr Baggins into the Company of Dwarves and the treasure hunt.
I'm not sure it was important, but I think Bombur was described as sweating under his own heat, and at the back of the line - he was the slowest, and his comment seemed to be said more from the fact that he was already finding the going tough without having to carry Mr Baggins as well.
Gandalf and Thorin turn to face the goblins, with an “about turn” command from Gandalf. However, upon seeing Beater and Biter, the goblins retreat in hasty confusion. But not for long. They slip on soft shoes ..... and send their best scouts after the party.
I wonder if they slipped on something like these?
Dori, who is holding Bilbo, is knocked down, with Bilbo tumbling off into unconsciousness.
Is Gandalf playing the role of military commander?
I dont get commander here, but leader of the party at this point, yes.
Are goblins not so scary after all? Are they all talk and no fight?
They are very tactical, and maybe because they dont understand the magic that the party has which has killed some Goblins on two occassions now, they are going to fight in a different way.
This is the first time we’ve had a serious cliff-hanger at the end of a chapter. Is there a reason more than just a matter of space and time?
The end of this chapter is like turning out the lights for a while - a complete closure, but with questions unanswered. I can see this being very tactical as well - its a great 'pause' or like intermission, it suspends the story and allows some digestion before moving forward again once more at a more 'collected' pace. I like the way this chapter ends.
Thankyou so much Arwen's Daughter!
Cheers
Elven x
Swishtail.
Tolkien was a Capricorn!!
Russell Crowe for Beorn!!
Avatar: Liberace - The other Lord of the Rings.
Quote of The Week: The thing is I always write in the morning, and I know that if I go to the Net I won’t write ... you can start in the most scholarly website and end up at Paris Hilton dot com .. GdT
|
|
|
Curious
Gondolin
Apr 19 2009, 12:02pm
Post #4 of 14
(1190 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Thoughts. And thanks for a great week!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Great questions all week, and great titles for your posts, too.
Onward the party goes, hearing goblin noises and footfalls closer and closer behind them. Bilbo rides on Bombur’s back and again on Dori’s, being so slow that he’s holding the group back. As Bilbo once again complains about leaving his hobbit hole, Bombur complains about bringing “a wretched little hobbit on a treasure hunt.”
How far have they gone that Bilbo is being carried by different dwarves?
Before I get to your question, note that this is the second time that we get hints that Bombur is both fat and strong, like a football lineman. The first time was when he gave the trolls a tough fight.
The narrator is vague about distances, but I can tell you from carrying my daughter that it doesn't take long to get tired of doing so!
Is Bombur just commiserating with Bilbo or does he really mean something by this?
He's certainly not commiserating with Bilbo. He's complaining about him. But Bilbo starts it by complaining about being there, which is rather ungracious to the dwarf carrying him. I don't think Bombur is being malicious, he's just a bit of a whiner, as is Bilbo at this point. Bilbo, however, will change for the better in Mirkwood, while Bombur, with the help of an enchantment, may change for the worse. Note that in Mirkwood Bombur quite literally switches roles with Bilbo, as the party must carry the sleeping Bombur a significant distance, slowing the party much more than Bilbo ever has, and yet when Bombur finally wakes up all he can do is complain.
Is it important that it’s Bombur who says this instead of Dori, Thorin, or any of the others?
Perhaps, although Dori has been known to complain about missing a meal. But this may set up Bombur's personality as a whiner, and the way Bombur and Bilbo switch roles in Mirkwood. Still, I'm not sure Tolkien does enough to establish Bombur's personality at this point, and I doubt that most readers remember who carried Bilbo when they were running from the goblins.
I think it is more important that someone says it, since Bilbo has reached a low point, and is about to undergo an adventure that will change everything.
Gandalf and Thorin turn to face the goblins, with an “about turn” command from Gandalf. However, upon seeing Beater and Biter, the goblins retreat in hasty confusion. But not for long. They slip on soft shoes and send their best scouts after the party. Dori, who is holding Bilbo, is knocked down, with Bilbo tumbling off into unconsciousness.
Is Gandalf playing the role of military commander?
Yes. To Thorin's credit, he does not question Gandalf here, or argue about who should be in charge.
Are goblins not so scary after all?
Not if you have a wizard who has demonstrated his abilities and two legendary, magical, glowing, goblin-cleaving swords on your side in a narrow passageway.
Are they all talk and no fight?
No, they will fight, but they generally need overwhelming numbers to succeed. Of course, that may also be true of the dwarves, who are not Warriors or Heroes themselves. A more realistic account might end with some of the dwarves getting stabbed in the back or having their throats slit; here they escape without even a wound.
I was going to attribute the lack of realism to this being a children's tale, but LotR isn't much more realistic in this sense; few of the central heroes die, and those who do either are paying for their sins (Thorin, Boromir) or have nearly reached the end of their natural lives (Theoden). On the other hand, heroes do die in The Silmarillion. I think this has to do with the importance Tolkien places on a Happy Ending in The Hobbit and LotR, vs. The Silmarillion, which is essentially tragic. Of course, in LotR Tolkien does a brilliant job of weaving together the traditional Happy Ending with undertones of melancholy. The heroes may not die, but many of them do leave Middle-earth forever, including Frodo. In that sense The Hobbit is a more traditional fairy-story.
This is the first time we’ve had a serious cliff-hanger at the end of a chapter. Is there a reason more than just a matter of space and time?
Yes. This sets up Bilbo's adventure on his own, an important turning point in the story.
(This post was edited by Curious on Apr 19 2009, 12:11pm)
|
|
|
batik
Dor-Lomin
Apr 19 2009, 5:15pm
Post #5 of 14
(1132 views)
Shortcut
|
How far have they gone that Bilbo is being carried by different dwarves?
We'll be told soon enough: "miles and miles". I am guessing that the terrain *under hill* (ah...that name...Mr. Underhill ) is similar to the terrain *over hill*--up, down, around---resulting in covering quite a bit of ground but not advancing a whole lot from point A to point B. Reminds me of the time we took the moutain route on a trip from Maryland/W. Virginia to Florida. We were in the mountains practically from dawn to dusk then we we got back on the "flat roads" and looked at the map--we'd not put a lot of road behind us--mapwise.
Is Bombur just commiserating with Bilbo or does he really mean something by this? Is it important that it’s Bombur who says this instead of Dori, Thorin, or any of the others?
Bombur does seem to be a bit of the "odd drawf" out --possibly the least fit (next to Bilbo at this point) for the undertaking. I suppose he might be "pulling rank" on Bilbo here.
Is Gandalf playing the role of military commander?
He does use terms most could relate to miltary commands--very authoritative. But school children could also relate this to "Sit down. Take out your pencil and your writing tablet."
Are goblins not so scary after all? Are they all talk and no fight?
I think the way this is played out serves a couple of purposes. The idea the "Biter and Beater!" are legendary is reinforced here based on the reaction of the band of trolls. Also, the advantage of backing off and regrouping is demonstrated. Too, there is a brief bit of tension-building.
This is the first time we’ve had a serious cliff-hanger at the end of a chapter. Is there a reason more than just a matter of space and time?
Wow! This is so like live theater! All the actors on the stage in a chaotic scene--then down comes the curtain in the midst of the action. What will we see when the curtain is raised? Excellent.
Thanks for leading this week!
|
|
|
dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 19 2009, 6:54pm
Post #6 of 14
(1055 views)
Shortcut
|
How far have they gone that Bilbo is being carried by different dwarves?
Miles, it seems! They probably took a very quick "breather", maybe every 15 minutes, and did their Hobbit-switching then.
Is Bombur just commiserating with Bilbo or does he really mean something by this? Is it important that it’s Bombur who says this instead of Dori, Thorin, or any of the others?
Bombur grumbles in response to Bilbo's complaint. He's hot, tired, and in no mood for giving sympathy!
[The goblins] slip on soft shoes and send their best scouts after the party.
Fuzzy bunny slippers, like the ones the Balrog wears? 
Actually, this, and the glowing swords, and running Dwarves reminds me of Tolkien's poem "Goblin Feet"! They are "off down the road, where the fairy-lanterns glowed, and the pretty little flitter-mice are flying..."
This is the first time we’ve had a serious cliff-hanger at the end of a chapter. Is there a reason more than just a matter of space and time?
It's like a murder-mystery: in the midst of the hubbub, the lights suddenly go off. End of scene; when the lights go back on, we will find ourselves utterly alone in the dark with Bilbo - and seeking clues.
Thanks for leading us, Arwen's Daughter, and I'll second Curious' comment about your fun post titles!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
|
|
|
Compa_Mighty
Dor-Lomin
Apr 19 2009, 8:23pm
Post #7 of 14
(1088 views)
Shortcut
|
This is the first time we’ve had a serious cliff-hanger at the end of a chapter. Is there a reason more than just a matter of space and time?
Since Riddles in the Dark comes next, I believe it's vital to build up tension. Riddles in the Dark is arguably the single most important chapter in the whole Tolkien cannon.
The years that it remained in its original form, with Gollum giving the Ring to Bilbo, it was the turning point, that magical artifact of the hero's journey that allows him to fulfill his destiny. From Excalibur to Anakin's lightsaber for Luke Skywalker, these magical artifacts are a key point in the hero's development. And that's only while the chapter remained unchanged.
With the revision, the chapter becomes pivotal to the whole mythology. It is the beginning of the end of a struggle that has lasted 3 ages, more than six thousand years. It is part of Bilbo's journey, but it is the beginning of Frodo's own. It is the change of tide, the beginning of the consummation of The Last Alliance's ideals... Riddles in the Dark means all that and so much more.
I do believe tension build-up is in order.
Here's to Del Toro becoming the Irvin Kershner of Middle Earth!
Essay winner of the Show us your Hobbit Pride Giveway!
|
|
|
One Ringer
Dor-Lomin
Apr 19 2009, 9:36pm
Post #8 of 14
(1047 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Tolkien tends to repeat himself
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Not in a bad way either. I just notice how he cliff-hangs regularly with wording along the lines of "He knew no more." It happens at the end of the Battle of the Five Armies, as well is happens at the Ford of Bruinen in FOTR. I believe it takes place again elsewhere, but I just can't seem to place it right now. Regardless, it's always classic to hear the familiar words everytime.
What Could Have Been - an ongoing discussion of things that may or may not have been in The Lord of the Rings Trilogy.
|
|
|
dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 20 2009, 12:06am
Post #9 of 14
(1027 views)
Shortcut
|
"The Black Gate Opens", during the companion scene to Bilbo's battle knockout in The Hobbit, when Pippin hears "The Eagles are coming!" and thinks: that was Bilbo's story, not his, just before he blacks out.
And excellent bit of tying-in between the two stories!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
|
|
|
grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
May 5 2009, 5:55pm
Post #11 of 14
(1033 views)
Shortcut
|
|
According to Karen Wynn Fonstad
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
the Company had run about 26 miles through the mountain when Bilbo was lost. There was another 9 miles to the back door and their escape.
I just love how the goblin's change into soft shoes. More craftiness and technology to have multiple shoes!?
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Aug 10 2009, 4:27am
Post #12 of 14
(997 views)
Shortcut
|
Belatedly I noticed that a concern Thorin expresses in this chapter is the very one that Bilbo was chanting during his fit in Bag-End.
Thanks Arwen's daughter!
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Hobbit in the Reading Room, Mar. 23 - Aug. 9. Everyone is welcome!
And sign up now for The Silmarillion!
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.
|
|
|
sador
Gondolin
Aug 10 2009, 6:20am
Post #13 of 14
(993 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Was anything literally struck by lightning in Middle-earth?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The nearest thing I can come up with is the tree on Caradhras, when the wargs attacked the fellowship.
Ah, and you also have the Eagles of Manwe in the Akallabeth, and the Temple which Sauron saved from the lightning.
Any connection?
"You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you" - Gandalf.
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Aug 10 2009, 2:39pm
Post #14 of 14
(1048 views)
Shortcut
|
|
"their tops were gaunt and broken, as if tempest and lightning-blast had swept across them"
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The trees at the Cross-roads. And Frodo is temporarily blinded, apparently by lightning, but really by the wraith's cry (and really, really by his hubris?) when descending the Emyn Muil.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Silmarillion in the Reading Room, Aug. 9 - Mar 7. Please join the conversation!
This week: "Ainulindalë".
+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=
How to find old Reading Room discussions.
|
|
|
|
|
