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Menelwyn
Nargothrond
Apr 10 2009, 8:55pm
Post #1 of 19
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**A Short Rest**--Part 6, Moon-letters
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Finally, let’s look at the one major plot point of the chapter: the discovery and interpretation of the moon-letters on Thorin’s map. Elrond takes the map and looks at it for a long time, then holds it up where the moon is shining and finds additional writing on it. These moon-letters “can only be seen when the moon shines behind them, and what is more, with the more cunning sort it must be a moon of the same shape and season as the day when they were written. The dwarves invented them and wrote them with silver pens….” These give instructions on how to find the key-hole to the door in the Lonely Mountain, by using a thrush’s knocking as a signal, and looking at the time of the last light of Durin’s Day. This is, of course, how Bilbo will ultimately help them find the key-hole.
Elrond asks what Durin’s Day is, and Thorin gives this reply: “The first day of the dwarves’ New Year…is as all should know the first day of the last moon of Autumn on the threshold of Winter. We still call it Durin’s Day when the last moon of Autumn and the sun are in the sky together.”
Why would someone use a type of secret writing that no one knows is there and can only be seen on rare occasions, even by the people who need to see it? A crescent moon occurring on Midsummer’s Eve is not all that frequent an occurrence, as Elrond points out.
Is it destiny or coincidence that Elrond should look at the map on this particular day?
How does Elrond know about moon-letters? Dwarves invented them, but do elves ever use them?
Why are Tolkien’s dwarves so obsessed with secrecy anyway (secret doors, secret writing, doors that only are visible at particular times…)?
Considering the message in these particular letters, how can the Dwarves at all believe that they might open the door at any time except Durin’s Day?
What do you think of this definition of Durin’s Day? Do dwarves operate on a lunar year cycle, unlike the solar calendar of the other Middle-earth races that we see in the LOTR Appendices?
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Apr 10 2009, 9:16pm
Post #2 of 19
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Perhaps dwarves have their own form of foresight, whether by arts or intuition. Plainly they have some grasp of magic, at least. Somebody somewhere determined that the people who need the secret most will happen to look at the map on such and such a day, and so that's what they set the secret writing for.
As for why the dwarves are so secretive? I don't know. It's a secret.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Apr 10 2009, 9:16pm)
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Curious
Gondolin
Apr 10 2009, 9:18pm
Post #3 of 19
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Why would someone use a type of secret writing that no one knows is there and can only be seen on rare occasions, even by the people who need to see it? A crescent moon occurring on Midsummer’s Eve is not all that frequent an occurrence, as Elrond points out.
The same reason they would construct a secret door that would only open from the outside on a rare occasion: because they have some foresight about when the map and door will be needed, or perhaps trust that Luck or Providence or Higher Powers will ensure that if the map and door are needed, events will work out so that the secret writing can be read and the secret door can be opened.
Is it destiny or coincidence that Elrond should look at the map on this particular day?
Yes. That is, Tolkien leaves it ambiguous. But there are, I judge, too many coincidences in The Hobbit, and also Gandalf does indicate at the end of the tale that it was more than "mere luck" that made the prophecies come true.
How does Elrond know about moon-letters? Dwarves invented them, but do elves ever use them?
I would think that elves would have used them sometime in the past few thousand years. In LotR, Tolkien put moon letters of a different sort on the doors to Moria, an elf/dwarf collaboration.
Why are Tolkien’s dwarves so obsessed with secrecy anyway (secret doors, secret writing, doors that only are visible at particular times…)?
They aren't the only ones. Rivendell isn't exactly out in the open, and neither is the Elfking's home in Mirkwood. It's a defense measure, and also a way to secure privacy. But in this case I think it also indicates tremendous trust in Providence to make things right, bringing the secret writing and secret door to light at just the right time.
Considering the message in these particular letters, how can the Dwarves at all believe that they might open the door at any time except Durin’s Day?
The dwarves are inclined to believe that it will be Durin's Day when they get there, even though they have no idea when the next Durin's Day will arrive. They are quite the optimists, perhaps because Gandalf and Elrond have encouraged them. And it is that kind of tale.
What do you think of this definition of Durin’s Day?
It's highly restrictive.
Do dwarves operate on a lunar year cycle, unlike the solar calendar of the other Middle-earth races that we see in the LOTR Appendices?
Apparently so, at least in The Hobbit.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Apr 10 2009, 9:26pm
Post #4 of 19
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Gentile: "When is Chanukkah this year?"
Rabbi: "Same as always: the 25th of Kislev."
-Old Jewish joke
Why would someone use a type of secret writing that no one knows is there and can only be seen on rare occasions, even by the people who need to see it? A crescent moon occurring on Midsummer’s Eve is not all that frequent an occurrence, as Elrond points out.
Yes, but he says “it must be a moon of the same shape and season as the day when they were written” which I take to allow a little bit of wiggle room.
Is it destiny or coincidence that Elrond should look at the map on this particular day?
“I love it when a plan comes together.”
-Gandalf
How does Elrond know about moon-letters?
From stealing secret Dwarven plans during the Dark Days.
Dwarves invented them, but do elves ever use them?
Elves can only mock, they cannot make real moon-letters of their own.
Why are Tolkien’s dwarves so obsessed with secrecy anyway (secret doors, secret writing, doors that only are visible at particular times…)?
You’ll find out in Chapter 15 when all the vultures start showing up trying to steal the rightful property of the Dwarves!
Considering the message in these particular letters, how can the Dwarves at all believe that they might open the door at any time except Durin’s Day?
‘There never was much hope,' he answered. 'Just a fool's hope…’
What do you think of this definition of Durin’s Day?
Sounds good.
Do dwarves operate on a lunar year cycle, unlike the solar calendar of the other Middle-earth races that we see in the LOTR Appendices?
“We still call it Durin’s Day when the last moon of Autumn and the sun are in the sky together.” So it would seem that the Dwarvish calendar operates on both the lunar and the solar calendar. Like the Jewish calendar, which coordinates the 29½-day lunar cycle into months of either 29 or 30 days, and the 12.4 month solar cycle into years of either 12 or 13 months.
(BTW, a "shanah me'uberet", or "pregnant year", is a Jewish year with 13 months.)
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Apr 11 2009, 2:45am
Post #6 of 19
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Why would someone use a type of secret writing that no one knows is there and can only be seen on rare occasions, even by the people who need to see it?
Because they can. The Dwarves invented this technology and they wanted to use it.
Where's Frodo?
(This post was edited by Finding Frodo on Apr 11 2009, 2:46am)
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Apr 11 2009, 12:39pm
Post #8 of 19
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At least the word 'pen' is old. Originally the word (Latin: penna) meant 'feather'. So it's not the word that's modern, just the image it conjures up for us. (Same in French, except the word 'plume' still means both 'feather' and 'pen'.) The Dwarves must have used quill-pens, but that's not mentioned because all pens were quill-pens back then!
As for the pens being silver rather than gold, that's an interesting question. Maybe because they were writing moon-letters, and the moon is silver? Or perhaps because gold is too bright for such secret work?
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship’s beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
beyond the sunset leads my way.
Bilbo's Last Song
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Apr 11 2009, 1:18pm
Post #9 of 19
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You two have made me wonder: what if "silver pens" meant "pens made to write with silver ink", or to tie this into LotR, pens which are designed to use ithildin, made from mithril ("true-silver"), so that the letters "reflect" only certain types of moonlight.
Like writing with highly specialized lemon juice!
I wonder what else could have been written on that map? Elrond did say that there were no more letters to be seen "by this moon". Now, why didn't the Dwarves pull the map out each clear night, and hold it up against the sky, to see if anything more would be revealed...
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Elven
Doriath
Apr 11 2009, 3:05pm
Post #10 of 19
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Two responses - one post :) ....
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The Dwarves must have used quill-pens, but that's not mentioned because all pens were quill-pens back then!
There may have been other types of writing materials - maybe Tom and Goldberry wrote with a reed, or something like that (my romantic notion) ... I think we assume that it was all quill and ink writing on paper, but both Elves and Dwarves 'carved' - (I wonder if they embossed as well  ) Elronds library and Gondors archival material must have been all hand scripted, but I wonder if the same methods were used.
You two have made me wonder: what if "silver pens" meant "pens made to write with silver ink", or to tie this into LotR, pens which are designed to use ithildin, made from mithril ("true-silver"), so that the letters "reflect" only certain types of moonlight.
Like writing with highly specialized lemon juice!
... or maybe silver pens with silver ink? (gel pens huh? ) an ithildin mix would have been my choice of ink for the job - (and how beautiful the runes would have looked!) and it wouldn't fade nor run if the map got wet - which has to be taken into consideration seeing that they did end up in the drink later on - its a wonder the map lasted at all.
Then again - specialized lemon juice gets my vote.
Cheers
Elven x
Swishtail.
Tolkien was a Capricorn!!
Russell Crowe for Beorn!!
Avatar: Liberace - The other Lord of the Rings.
Quote of The Week: The thing is I always write in the morning, and I know that if I go to the Net I won’t write ... you can start in the most scholarly website and end up at Paris Hilton dot com .. GdT
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Apr 12 2009, 10:40pm
Post #11 of 19
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Silver is associated with the moon, and moonlight. Gold is associated with the sun, and sunlight. Copper is associated with firelight. They probably had different pens for different kind of light-magic. Say, for instance, the light of the sun on the day that it sets directly behind the Lonely Mountain as viewed from a certain point in the Iron Hills.
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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cloudland
Nevrast
Apr 12 2009, 11:24pm
Post #12 of 19
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According to the Appedix D of LoTR the Dwarves indeed used a lunar calendar while all other beings used solar. There are advantages and disavantages to this way recording time. One disadvantage is while you judge the time passing on a four week month you actually loose days from each year. I read somewhere if you use a lunar calendar you only have 354 (11 days shorter) days in a year.
"We call it Durin's Day when the last moon of Autumn and the moon and sun are in the sky together". As you can see the Dwarves new year was reset each year on a different calendar day. Only a Dwarvish new year where this occurs is technically Durin's Day.
I hope this helps.
cloudland (kloud'land'), n. 1. the sky. 2. a region of daydreams, imaginations, etc.; dreamland.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Apr 13 2009, 5:07pm
Post #13 of 19
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is why I was able to reuse my HIldebrandt calendars a few years ago. But I wasn't aware of the thing about the solar calendar coinciding with the Hebrew months. Interesting!
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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weaver
Gondolin
Apr 14 2009, 3:07am
Post #14 of 19
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My favorite part about all of this is that both Thorin and Gandalf are miffed that Elrond knew something they did not; yep, that fits the egos involved perfectly. I once worked with a group of CEOs on a project and they acted just like this!
I was way too busy to participate, but did enjoy lurking through your week. Thanks for a good read!
Weaver
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Earl
Forum Admin
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Apr 14 2009, 8:18am
Post #15 of 19
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... it's almost as if Gandalf and Thorin might've said "How the heck did I not see that?" Elrond must've been privately elated at his discovery 
Crows and Gibbets! What is the House of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek and their brats roll around on the floor with the dogs? You are but a lesser son of greater sires!
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Earl
Forum Admin
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Apr 14 2009, 8:45am
Post #16 of 19
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Why would someone use a type of secret writing that no one knows is there and can only be seen on rare occasions, even by the people who need to see it?
I don't think it was supposed to be a secret from "everyone". The map seems like a kind of heirloom fit to be passed from father to son, and with it would go the secrets it contained. However, the circumstances under which the map came to Thorin were unfortunate. It was Thrain who in an almost witless state handed it over to Gandalf along with the key and said "For my son". Thrain was the last of the "royal dwarves" to have held the secret that went with the map, and it passed with him, for such is the way of all secrets.
Is it destiny or coincidence that Elrond should look at the map on this particular day?
"Luck" or "chance" runs through the veins of these tales. A lot. But we're also made aware, very subtly, that what we would call luck and chance are the powers of the world working passively to bring about the unfolding of the "music" to fulfilment in what little way they can. Gandalf meeting with Thorin was a "chance meeting". Gandalf remembering the map and they key in Bag End was a "stroke of good luck".
That Elrond saw it might've been coincidence. But if it wasn't him, someone would have seen it anyway. Having him see it was a way of making their journey to Rivendell seem like it was worth it. Also, did Elrond really have to ask Thorin "What's Durins Day?" It's not like he didn't know it
How does Elrond know about moon-letters? Dwarves invented them, but do elves ever use them?
I think the writing on the doors of Moria are also "moon-letters", though of a slightly different kind. So it's reasonable to assume that Dwarves, having invented the art, shared the knowledge with Elves whom they were indeed friendly with at some point in time. Maybe elves never used them because they had different kinds of powers, natural powers perhaps which other races didn't possess (like the fences of Lorien, the waters of the Bruinen) to protect their domains, unlike dwarves who had to resort to more "physical" methods.
Why are Tolkien’s dwarves so obsessed with secrecy anyway (secret doors, secret writing, doors that only are visible at particular times…)?
I'm not sure. But they're also secretive about their language (which they taught to none) and their real names (which they told to none). Maybe it had to do with the fact that they were hunted by Morgoth's servants and had to resort to such measures, just being generally distrustful of everyone else.
Considering the message in these particular letters, how can the Dwarves at all believe that they might open the door at any time except Durin’s Day?
On the whole, the Dwarves seemed like they never took responsibility for anything that happened during their journey - they always found someone to blame their plight on and were forever grumbling. But then we must also remember that this is Bilbo's version of the story. Perhaps that was all he noticed, or chose to notice. But maybe the Dwarves were up to more than that. Otherwise, what woould explain them all sitting dejected while the sun and the moon were in the sky and only Bilbo being alert? Maybe they knew all along, they were testing Bilbo, they left from Lake Town at the precise time to reach the Lonely Mountain by Durin's Day, and they knew the hour when the door would be revealed. Poor Bilbo thought he was all important and had everything to do with all of that  Smaug did put doubts in his mind about the dwarves and their motives about the treasure at any rate...
What do you think of this definition of Durin’s Day? Do dwarves operate on a lunar year cycle, unlike the solar calendar of the other Middle-earth races that we see in the LOTR Appendices?
I'm not sure. Maybe the dwarves based a lot of their stuff on the moon because it was night and they liked darkness and secrecy.
Crows and Gibbets! What is the House of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek and their brats roll around on the floor with the dogs? You are but a lesser son of greater sires!
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
May 5 2009, 6:02pm
Post #17 of 19
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Dwarves were always so secretive.
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Hidden doors (Moria/Erebor) and invisible ink notwithstanding ;)
Just look at the measures and counter-measures to protect this hidden door! Ravens, moon-letters, silver invisible ink, hidden keyholes, secret doors to secret passages only accessed on a very special day IF it isn't cloudy out! Mercy!
It's interesting that Thorin and Gandalf at the same time said:
"What do they say?" asked Gandalf and Thorin together, a bit vexed perhaps that even Elrond should have found this out first, though really there had not been a chance before, and there would not have been another until goodness knows when.
It's hard to tell if Gandalf was irked, or Thorin, or both equally at Elrond's discovery. ;) My money's on Thorin since Gandalf seemed to know Elrond would be able to help them with the runes. When they found Orcrist and Glamdring, he noted that when they knew what the runes said, they'd know more... and they were, afterall, on their way to Rivendell.
Thanks lots, Menelwyn :D
"There is more in you of good than you know, child of the kindly West."
~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
I really need these new films to take me back to, and not re-introduce me to, that magical world.
TORn's Observations Lists
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Aug 10 2009, 4:23am
Post #18 of 19
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Still wondering about the "unexpected valleys".
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How does the party get around ravines they can "neither jump over or climb into"? Presumably they can only turn aside. At the least, it seems unlikely that the geography of LOTR appllies: I doubt the stream they ford in the morning is the same one they find in Rivendell in the evening.
Thanks Menelwyn!
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sador
Gondolin
Aug 10 2009, 6:00am
Post #19 of 19
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"Those as can't fly can jump!"
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Oh, for a Gollum...
"You are a very fine person, Mr. Baggins, and I am very fond of you" - Gandalf.
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LOL... love that part too...
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