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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Mar 9 2009, 1:59pm
Post #1 of 14
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Appendix F — Part 1: Introduction
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This is an abstruse subject, to be sure, and one not to all readers’ taste. Likewise, as N.E. Brigand said of Appendix E, the material is difficult to summarize without simply repeating Tolkien at the same (or even greater) length. Throughout this discussion, but especially early on, please feel free to throw in any comments (or your own questions). This will help me to see who is interested in the subject, and in what particular ways.
This appendix consists of two sections, “The Languages and Peoples of the Third Age”, in which Tolkien dicusses the various languages and how they are related to one another, and to the Westron “Common Speech”; and “On Translation”, in which Tolkien expounds on the topos adopted for The Lord of the Rings of its having been a ‘found’ manuscript, painstakingly translated for the benefit of modern readers.
To set the stage, let’s begin with some general questions:
Let’s see a show of hands: who is, and who isn’t, really interested in the translation topos? Does it help or hinder The Lord of the Rings as a fantasy tale, as far as you are concerned?
Do you find it distracting or unnecessary? Or on the other hand, vital, even essential? Does it conduce to a greater understanding of Tolkien’s ambitious work?
Is Appendix F a suitable coda to The Lord of the Rings? Or does it mar the work to conclude it with such an arcane – and so obviously abbreviated – essay?
Do you actually read Appendix F? Ever? Each time you read The Lord of the Rings? Or only once in a while, as a refresher?
Is the expansion of Westron in Middle-earth analogous to the expansion of English in the real world? To what extent could the spread of Westron (as the spread of English) be attributed to colonization? Was this an intended parallel by Tolkien, or an incidental one?
Tolkien refers to the Dunlendings and Woses here, noting their diminishing numbers and territory, but also that they “clung to their own languages.” These two clans of outsiders are, respectively, hostile to and guardedly allied with our heroes. But is Tolkien making a general comment here on the way real-world languages are besieged and eventually overthrown?
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
“On Fairy-stories” discussion 2008 – “Origins” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 9 2009, 3:24pm
Post #2 of 14
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What I found most useful in appendix F is the insight given into names, because of course names influence those to whom they attach. (I'm sure that being named "Dolores" had a lot to do with my youth as a teenage drama queen, but I later worked through that by realizing that adding my surname, "Dolores Nurss", came out to mean "Sorrow-Healer", thus providing a more wholesome identity.)
From this index, for instance, I learned that Sam's father never gave him a chance. He didn't just call him "Ninnyhammer" and other cruel names out of frustration with some real flaw, revealed by experience, but named him "Halfwit" from birth!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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Curious
Gondolin
Mar 9 2009, 3:32pm
Post #3 of 14
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If you are going to ask for a show of hands,
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you can't do it with a compound question. 
Let’s see a show of hands: who is, and who isn’t, really interested in the translation topos? Does it help or hinder The Lord of the Rings as a fantasy tale, as far as you are concerned?
Not interested. Tolkien's invented languages, and particularly his fascination with proper names of people and places, adds immeasurable depth to LotR, but I rarely refer to the explanations in this appendix. It's usually enough for me to know how much care he exercised. As for the conceit that the language of the hobbits has been translated, I enjoy it as long as people don't use that conceit to support literary criticism. Tolkien isn't classist, it's those darned hobbits. Whatever. 
Do you find it distracting or unnecessary? Or on the other hand, vital, even essential? Does it conduce to a greater understanding of Tolkien’s ambitious work?
In general, I don't think Tolkien's appendices add to the literary quality of the text, and they can distract from it. It's like the author giving us a glimpse of his notes. Part of me wants the author to keep his notes to himself, or else to publish them separately, and more completely, for those who care to inquire. Then again, part of me enjoys glimpsing his notes. So I'm torn.
Is Appendix F a suitable coda to The Lord of the Rings? Or does it mar the work to conclude it with such an arcane – and so obviously abbreviated – essay?
As I said, I'm torn.
Do you actually read Appendix F? Ever? Each time you read The Lord of the Rings? Or only once in a while, as a refresher?
I have read it, but not as often as I've read LotR. And I must admit that my eyes glaze over and I skim most of it.
Is the expansion of Westron in Middle-earth analogous to the expansion of English in the real world? To what extent could the spread of Westron (as the spread of English) be attributed to colonization? Was this an intended parallel by Tolkien, or an incidental one?
Westron is a device like the babblefish in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, used to make LotR work as fiction. It is unrealistic, despite Tolkien's best efforts to rationalize it. The story-external reasons for its existence totally trump any fictional story-internal reasons.
So no, it wasn't a parallel to the spread of English in the 19th and 20th centuries, conscious or unconscious. Indeed, English spread as a language of commerce in a shrinking world, and there is very little such international commerce or travel mentioned in LotR. On the contrary, Gandalf and Aragorn are considered odd precisely because they are well-traveled. Even a sophisticate like Faramir has never left Gondor, and when Boromir left Gondor it took him forever to find his way to Rivendell.
Tolkien refers to the Dunlendings and Woses here, noting their diminishing numbers and territory, but also that they “clung to their own languages.” These two clans of outsiders are, respectively, hostile to and guardedly allied with our heroes. But is Tolkien making a general comment here on the way real-world languages are besieged and eventually overthrown?
Within LotR clinging to your own language seems to be a sign of hostility. For example, under the influence of Wormtongue Theoden required strangers to speak Rohirric, a language few strangers knew. Gandalf and Aragorn chided Theoden for doing so, and from then on it is hard to tell whether anyone speaks Rohirric. In the Primary World Tolkien probably mourned the gradual loss of obscure languages, but in his work of fiction Westron just proved too convenient.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Mar 9 2009, 4:40pm
Post #4 of 14
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I read it a couple of times years ago as a teen
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and found it interesting at the time, but not something I needed to re-read again. It was just background information I was glad to know. I do like knowing some of if, and seeing what curious calls the "author's notes" (I loved the four volumes of the rough draft of LotR, though there's a lot of other HoME stuff I haven't read). I was more interested in the part about hobbit names than some of the other stuff.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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sador
Gondolin
Mar 9 2009, 7:10pm
Post #5 of 14
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the material is difficult to summarize without simply repeating Tolkien at the same (or even greater) length True; but sometimes a simple rephrasing helps a lot.
Let’s see a show of hands: who is, and who isn’t, really interested in the translation topos? Does it help or hinder The Lord of the Rings as a fantasy tale, as far as you are concerned?
I am; but it took me quite a while to make any sense of it.
Do you find it distracting or unnecessary? Or on the other hand, vital, even essential? Does it conduce to a greater understanding of Tolkien’s ambitious work?
I think it helped me understand the book better:
Is Appendix F a suitable coda to The Lord of the Rings? Or does it mar the work to conclude it with such an arcane – and so obviously abbreviated – essay?
I do not think an appendice is any kind oif coda.
Do you actually read Appendix F? Ever? Each time you read The Lord of the Rings? Or only once in a while, as a refresher?
In my recent reads I read it as well.
Is the expansion of Westron in Middle-earth analogous to the expansion of English in the real world? To what extent could the spread of Westron (as the spread of English) be attributed to colonization? Was this an intended parallel by Tolkien, or an incidental one?
I agree with Curious. The comparison does not quite fit.
Tolkien refers to the Dunlendings and Woses here, noting their diminishing numbers and territory, but also that they “clung to their own languages.” These two clans of outsiders are, respectively, hostile to and guardedly allied with our heroes. But is Tolkien making a general comment here on the way real-world languages are besieged and eventually overthrown?
If you want to see it in this way.
"They always wished to talk to everything, the old Elves did" - Treebeard
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cloudland
Nevrast
Mar 9 2009, 8:08pm
Post #6 of 14
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the rereading of Appendix F especially The Languages and Poeple of the Third Age because of the refresher course in M-e history involved. To me the part was not so much about languages (yes they are included and important) but this information is intertwined with what I love most about Tolkien's work, his back stories to the Third Age. I do however, see this extra information to some may actually seem boring without extra reading of The Sil or Unfinished Tales. Place names of peoples including those of the Dunlandings and Rohirrim are a fascinating way to view M-e. I love maps can you tell.  I could go on but won't because I dare say I may bore you. lol
Now for On Translations; I had forgotten the 'familiar' speech was used by the hobbits and that Pippen was seen as someone of nobility to Gondorians. A little back story is nice too. I mean gosh, isn't that why we like Tolkien so much? But this aside I found this chapter less interesting to read. Perhaps because it lost those elements I like from the first part of the appedices.
I believe because Tolkien was a man of languages he felt it necessary to give as much back ground (in our common tongue so as not to bore us layman to tears) information of the many languages of M-e. It is, after all, probably his favorite topic. Langueges are an important, integrel part of civilizations. No one stays in one place and the fabric of who we are is made up of many things, including our language and the use of words.
I do not reread the appendices when enjoying LoTR. For me they are more or less reference materials. In the past they have proved invaluable. Thank you for prodding me to reread this one again. 
My goodness I hope I haven't put anyone to sleep. LOL
I would encourage anyone who hasn't read The Sil or the Unfinished Tales to give them a try. They may help to enlighten the whole 'language' thing for you.
cloudland (kloud'land'), n. 1. the sky. 2. a region of daydreams, imaginations, etc.; dreamland.
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Mar 9 2009, 8:17pm
Post #7 of 14
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Elvish, Schmelvish.
I really have absolutely no interest in any of Tolkien's languages & basically glance over them when reading....
What a chore when reading the texts outloud to my children.
Trying to learn to pronounce 'Maedhros' and 'Nirnaeth Arnoediad' before I discovered the Encyclopedia of Arda had a phoenetic pronounciation of each word was a chore indeed......
The words in Elvish themselves, eek!
Let’s see a show of hands: who is, and who isn’t, really interested in the translation topos? Does it help or hinder The Lord of the Rings as a fantasy tale, as far as you are concerned?
I guess the above answers this one.
Do you find it distracting or unnecessary? Or on the other hand, vital, even essential? Does it conduce to a greater understanding of Tolkien’s ambitious work?
Well, I guess it is what it is, and I'm OK with that, but the well documented "large catalogue of proper nouns" in multiple titles like 'Manwe Sulimo' or Melkor/Morgoth Bauglir' can easily drive a first time reader crazy.
Is Appendix F a suitable coda to The Lord of the Rings? Or does it mar the work to conclude it with such an arcane – and so obviously abbreviated – essay?
Appendix F doesn't conclude TLOR, it concludes the Appendices to TLOR. Many people don't even look at it & it certainly isn't part of the actual story, so no, it does not 'mar' the story in any way.
Do you actually read Appendix F? Ever? Each time you read The Lord of the Rings? Or only once in a while, as a refresher?
Never read it, except last time when I just finished reading the books to my son & he wanted every word from front to back (he has autism & really didn't understand the difference). The only part I found of interest was about the Olog-Hai that Sauron bred.
Generally, I only read Appendices A & B, but read them every time.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Mar 9 2009, 8:53pm
Post #8 of 14
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"The deader the language the more alive is the ghost."
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We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.
-James Davis Nicoll
Let’s see a show of hands: who is, and who isn’t, really interested in the translation topos?
(Hopping Donkey in the back): Me! Me! If Tolkien wrote it, I’m interested! Heck, I'd even read his shopping lists if they were published! (Then again wasn't that the essence of some of his letters?)
Does it help or hinder The Lord of the Rings as a fantasy tale, as far as you are concerned?
A great fantasy tale is handed down from generation to generation. A good fantasy tale should at least to pretend to have been. (“Hwaet”, “Once upon a time”, “I have heard it said”, “A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away”, etc.)
Do you find it distracting or unnecessary?
I’m reminded of the little old lady at customs who is asked: “Do you advocate the overthrow of the United States Government by violence or subversion?” After a long silence she finally says “Err….subversion.”
If I have to pick, I’ll go with unnecessary.
Or on the other hand, vital, even essential?
It’s essential to Tolkien’s intentions. Whether it is vital to the reader is another matter entirely.
Does it conduce to a greater understanding of Tolkien’s ambitious work?
I think it’s conducive to a greater understanding of Tolkien’s ambitions.
Is Appendix F a suitable coda to The Lord of the Rings?
We’re not doing the index? I’m sure NEB could do a week’s worth of topics on it, two postings a day.
(No offense meant, NEB! )
Or does it mar the work to conclude it with such an arcane – and so obviously abbreviated – essay?
More Tolkien is always good.
Do you actually read Appendix F?
As my father always said, “What the heck else am I going to do with it?”
Ever?
“Weeellllll, hardly ever!”
(Chorus: “He hardly ever reads Appendix F!”)
Each time you read The Lord of the Rings?
Sometimes I don’t even read The Lord of the Rings every time I read The Lord of the Rings.
Or only once in a while, as a refresher?
At least for Reading Room discussions.
Is the expansion of Westron in Middle-earth analogous to the expansion of English in the real world?
If you compare palantirs to Apples and think Al Gore stole his big idea from Tolkien, then yes.
To what extent could the spread of Westron (as the spread of English) be attributed to colonization?
We only have English because England was colonized by the French.
William was a Norman King.
Of him the harpers sadly sing:
The last whose realm was fair and free
Between the Channel and the sea.
Was this an intended parallel by Tolkien, or an incidental one?
Freud said there is no such thing as an accident and Einstein died while working on the proof.
“Coincidence is God’s way of remaining anonymous.”
-Albert Einstein
Same thing with authors, only they’re nowhere as successful.
Tolkien refers to the Dunlendings and Woses here, noting their diminishing numbers and territory, but also that they “clung to their own languages.”
Kinda like the Scots and the Irish. And the Welsh and the Cornish. And the Manxmen and the Bretons. And the French.
These two clans of outsiders are, respectively, hostile to and guardedly allied with our heroes.
Again, like the Gaelic and the Gallic.
But is Tolkien making a general comment here on the way real-world languages are besieged and eventually overthrown?
“Yiddish may be a dying language but it is the only language I know well. Yiddish is my mother language and a mother is never really dead.”
-Isaac Bashevis Singer.
On the other hand:
“For 2000 years Hebrew was considered a dead language. Suddenly it became strangely alive. What happened to Hebrew may also happen to Yiddish one day, (although I haven't the slightest idea how this miracle can take place.)”
-Singer
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 10 2009, 2:13am
Post #9 of 14
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You seem like an interesting person, Cloudland--welcome!
Life is beautiful and dangerous! Beware! Enjoy!
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cloudland
Nevrast
Mar 10 2009, 11:47am
Post #10 of 14
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and thank you! 
cloudland (kloud'land'), n. 1. the sky. 2. a region of daydreams, imaginations, etc.; dreamland.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Mar 10 2009, 5:00pm
Post #11 of 14
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This has to do with the only slightly off-color joke my mom ever told me, and I was rather shocked as a teen when I finally figured it out. She and my dad had been square dancing, and the caller had said "Some people are fast, and some people are half-fast."
I had just finished reading Appendix F, and the first thing that popped into my head was "Samwise" and "Hamfast", and thought maybe the joke had something to to with half wise. My mom couldn't believe I didn't get the joke as intended, and eventually had to explain it to me. (Since then, in our family, when someone is poking along, we tend to say "Some people are fast..." and leave the rest hanging.)
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Mar 10 2009, 9:34pm
Post #12 of 14
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Do you wish me a good morning, or mean that it is a good morning whether I want it or not; or that you feel good on this morning; or that it is a morning to be good on?
Good morning, and welcome! ;-)
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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cloudland
Nevrast
Mar 10 2009, 10:18pm
Post #13 of 14
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a good morning to you as it was just an ok one for me. But the afternoon was much better so I hope you have a good evening now.
cloudland (kloud'land'), n. 1. the sky. 2. a region of daydreams, imaginations, etc.; dreamland.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Mar 11 2009, 4:11pm
Post #14 of 14
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I had an icy commute yesterday morning (ugh) but the sun came out and the drive home was fine, and I went dancing in the evening, so it was great. Hope your evening was great too.
Your nickname is interesting. My sister is a dreamworker, and so is dreamdeer. I've been keeping a dream diary for forty years. Sounds like you are interested in dreams too.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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