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duats
Hithlum
Oct 5 2011, 9:26pm
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Couple of pronunciation questions
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There are a few characters whose names I'm having a difficult time pronouncing. I read through Tolkien's Appendices dedicated to pronunciations, but I ended up just getting a massive headache. Some of his explanations just fly right past my head.
So, could you give me the "dummy" tutorial on the correct way to pronounce these names?
1) Beorn. I don't know if the "eo" should be pronounced as one syllable ("Byorn") or as two separate ones ("Bey-orn"). As far as I know, "eo" is non-diphthongal, and is meant to be dissyllabic. However, there is no accent above the "e," so I'm not sure if this rule applies or not.
2) Caradhras. I know that "dh" is pronounced like the "th" in "there," resulting in a pronunciation of "Carathras." My question for this one is where to place the stress. This is something I continue to struggle with. I never know where to place the stress in words with over two syllables.
3) Balrog. I'm sure people will be surprised to see this on here. I know that the "a" is long (like in "father"). My question is, shouldn't the "o" sound like the "o" in "toe" - since it, too, is long? The only reason I bring this up is because, in the movie, the "o" is pronounced like the "o" in "fog." This same question can be applied to Gothmog.
4) Theoden, Eomer, Eowyn. According to the Encyclopedia of Arda, the "eo" in these names should be pronounced like "ear" - and therefore one syllable. By that logic, the correct pronunciations of these names are Thearden, Earmer, and Earwyn. But in the movies, "eo" is pronounced as two syllables (I believe because of the acute accent over the "e"), and the "e" sounds like a long "a." They (soft "th") -oden, Ey-omer, Ey-owyn. Which is correct?
5) Smeagol. Again, the Encyclopedia of Arda has just made me more confused. I assumed the pronunciation was correct in the films ("Smeegol"). But according to the Encyclopedia, the "ea" should be pronounced like "air." Thus the correct way to say it is "Smairgol." I know that Christopher Lee, in the film commentaries, pronounces it like that more-or-less.
(This post was edited by duats on Oct 5 2011, 9:28pm)
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Ardamírë
Doriath
Oct 5 2011, 10:26pm
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Can I add Maeglin to this list please?//
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duats
Hithlum
Oct 5 2011, 11:19pm
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Am I mistaken, or is the vowel "I" always pronounced as "ee?"
So we'd have:
Dwaleen
Baleen
Keelee
Feelee
Doree
Noree
Oree
Oh-een (pronounced as one syllable)
Gloh-een (pronounced as one syllable)
Beefur
Thoreen
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Oct 6 2011, 2:48pm
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First, congratulations on wanting to pronounce these names correctly! One does not have to do this to enjoy Tolkien's works, and indeed, Tolkien himself admitted that not everybody cares to take the trouble. Nor should they be compelled or shamed into doing it. But he put a great deal of thought and effort into his languages, so I'm sure he would appreciate your efforts. As do I. As will be very obvious soon enough (!), this is one of my pet topics!
Second, here is an important caveat: the bulk of the simplified guide to pronunciation given in Appendix E of The Lord of the Rings is meant for the pronunciation of the Elvish languages only — with a few additional notes on Dwarvish, etc. Those names that are based on Old English and Old Norse have a different set of rules (that is, the rules of pronunciation of Old English and Old Norse, respectively). For example, remember the minor character in Rohan named Ceorl? According to the Elvish rules in Appendix E, the initial consonant would be pronounced like a k, but that's actually incorrect. It should be pronounced like the ch in church. Another example: if we applied these rules to Hobbit names, then Bolger would be pronounced with the g in get, not the g in bulge, as Tolkien clearly intended. To pronounce all the names correctly, one really needs to know their origins. Yes, each and every one. No small task!
For the names you asked about, here's the clearest set of explanations I can give without actually recording my pronunciations. Please let me know if this is helpful.
Beorn. Yes, it's one syllable; it is a diphthong. The e is somewhere between the short e of get and the a in hat, the o sounds like the regular English vowel in or but the r is rolled; the b and n are pronounced as in English. The pronunciation of this name is pretty darn close to that of the Scottish word bairn.
Caradhras. The stress is on the middle syllable, so caRADHras. In Appendix E, Tolkien writes that "in longer words [the stress] falls on the last syllable but one, where that contains a long vowel, a diphthong, or a vowel followed by two (or more) consonants". In Caradhras, it's the two or more consonants part of the rule that applies. Note that dh counts a single consonant, but the r makes two.
Balrog. No, the o isn't long; it's short (as is the a). To be long in this word, it would have to be explicitly marked.
Théoden, Éomer, Éowyn. The Encyclopedia of Arda isn't quite right here. It is one syllable, but I don't see where they get ear. In Old English the diphthong éo is pronounced long æ + o, that is basically a glide between the long a in jazz and the short o in hot. The Encyclopedia of Arda might have meant the r in the same way the British often use it to indicate the character of a vowel (i.e., the r itself being unpronounced). Are its makers British? If you have trouble with this diphthong, you aren't going too far wrong to pronounce the vowels separately as in the movies; just try not to be too obvious about it! Note that to be perfectly correct, you also want to roll the r in Éomer, and pronounce the y in Éowyn as the u in the French word lune. Very few people take the trouble to do this! :)
Sméagol. This is an interesting case. Everything but the diphthong is straightforward (stress on the first syllable, by the way). In Old English éa is pronounced long æ + a, so, basically like the vowels in jazz + father. But Tolkien himself mispronounces the name in the audio recordings he made from The Lord of the Rings. He pronounces is like "Smee - gol", making the vowel in the first syllable a monophthong, like the i in machine. This is definitely wrong — yes, I do dare say so! :) — based on everything else he wrote and recorded elsewhere. But in this case, I would say you have a choice: pronounce it correctly as in Old English (as Christopher Lee does), or pronounce it the way Tolkien himself did.
Turning to your follow-up on the Dwarvish names, no, it's not correct to say that i is alsways ee. Long i is pronounced that way, but short i is pronounced as in English pin. So, yes, the first vowel in Fíli and Kíli is pronounced ee (because it is marked long), but no, the final vowel in Balin, Dwalin, and Thorin is not. I wouldn't worry too much about these, though, because Tolkien himself was a little inconsistent with marking the vowels. None are marked in The Hobbit (fair enough; it was a children's book), but the vowels as marked in The Lord of the Rings do not always match their sources in the Old Norse literature. Tolkien gives Thorin, Dwalin, Durin, Thráin, Fíli, and Kíli (among others), which do match their sources in the Völuspá precisely; however, he gives Nori, Bifur, Bofur, and Bombur, where the Old Norse names are Nóri, Bívör, Bávör, and Bömbur. The vowels in these names ought to have been long if Tolkien were adapting them as carefully and systematically as was his usual wont. But for these names, I choose to pronounce them as Tolkien wrote them (with short vowels).
Even the great man himself was capable of a slip here and there. Though we might not call it a slip, but rather the author's prerogative. 
Jason Fisher
Author/editor of Tolkien and the Study of His Sources: Critical Essays (McFarland, 2011)
Blog: Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
“On Fairy-stories” discussion 2008 – “Origins” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Oct 6 2011, 2:51pm
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Tolkien tells us that ae isn't quite like anything naturally occurring in English (it should be a diphthong of a + e), but that for convenience we can pronounce it the same way we do the diphthong ai (a + i). Therefore, the first syllable of Maeglin can be pronounced like the normal English word my. The second syllable is straightforward, with all the letters prononced as they are in English. The stress is on the first syllable.
Jason Fisher
Author/editor of Tolkien and the Study of His Sources: Critical Essays (McFarland, 2011)
Blog: Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
“On Fairy-stories” discussion 2008 – “Origins” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Oct 9 2011, 7:57pm
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I might be wrong, but doesn't Tolkien say somewhere dh should be prounced as th? This is the case in Anglo-Saxon anyway I believe. So this would be true for names like Maeodhras as well. It's easier to pronounce that way, to be honest!
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Ardamírë
Doriath
Oct 10 2011, 9:29pm
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I've actually tried it this way before, but i find it to be rather unsatisfactory. That's why i asked; i was hoping for a different, but simple, way to pronounce it.
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duats
Hithlum
Oct 11 2011, 12:49am
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So I've been pronouncing Beorn wrong on this time (Byorn). Whoops.
I've been trying and trying, but for the life of me I cannot pronounce Théoden, Éomer, and Éowyn the way you've written it out. Especially Eowyn. I listened to an audio sample of the French word "lune" to have a frame of reference, but I'm having a hard time saying it coming off of the "w." I don't suppose there's a recording of these names anywhere that I could listen to. I always appreciate audio reference.
In regards to Sméagol, Christopher Lee's pronounces "éa" like the "ey" in "they," but ends it with the "a" sound in "father." So it ultimately sounds like Smeyagol (with the "y" being silent, of course). That doesn't sound like what you're talking about. So perhaps Sir Christopher didn't get it right after all.
(This post was edited by duats on Oct 11 2011, 12:53am)
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duats
Hithlum
Oct 11 2011, 2:06am
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Found this website with some audio samples of Old English words
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http://people.umass.edu/...k/Pronunciation.html
Am I correct in assuming that the "e" in Theoden, Eomer, and Eowyn is long, due to the acute mark? Therefore, it should be pronounced like the "-ay" in "way?"
And since the "o" isn't marked, should that be pronounced as a short "o" (rhymes with the "o" in Modern English "pond")?
And since the "y" isn't mark, is it also a short vowel? Which means it should sounds like the "i" sound in "will."
So I'm settling on something like:
Ay-ah-wuin.
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duats
Hithlum
Oct 11 2011, 4:42am
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http://www.ucalgary.ca/...ronunc2.htm#dipthong
This one was helpful, but I noticed a discrepancy.
In the sound sample of "éo," they pronounce it as "ey-oh" (with emphasis on the first sound). However, isn't the "o" supposed to be short? In which case, it should be pronounced "ey-ah."
My head hurts  .
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Oct 11 2011, 3:02pm
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They aren't the easiest sounds for speakers of Modern English to make. From what you say, Christopher Lee's Sméagol is close, but not quite in the bull as I had thought. Pronouncing éa as if it were é + a is close enough to satisfy me, though as I said, to the best of our ability to reconstruct Old English phonology with any real certainty, it ought to be a long æ + a. In either case, try to make sure it's a single syllable. Likewise, for Théoden, etc., you could do worse than to pronounce é + o distinctly, but again, try to make it a single syllable, and then you've got it. The short y was not pronounced like the i in will in Old English. It came to be pronounced that way in the Middle English period, but in proper Old English, it was a fronted-u, pronounced like the first vowel in the German word mütter. It's a sound that does not exist in Modern English. But again, you could do worse than pronounce it like the i in will. Also, with the diphthongs, the long mark applies to the whole diphthong. Hence, éo is not long-e + short-o; rather, it's long-eo.
Confusing, I know. 
Jason Fisher
Author/editor of Tolkien and the Study of His Sources: Critical Essays (McFarland, 2011)
Blog: Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
“On Fairy-stories” discussion 2008 – “Origins” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
(This post was edited by visualweasel on Oct 11 2011, 3:05pm)
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Oct 11 2011, 3:38pm
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thanks for the explanations, still have some questions
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This is very interesting, but I still have some trouble understanding how Théoden and Éomer and Éowyn ought to be pronounced (and my own language is full of diphtongs) Could you provide a phonetic transcription of these names?
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Oct 11 2011, 3:56pm
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Shouldn't "balrog" rhyme with a southern-accented "I'll vogue"?
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duats:
Balrog. I'm sure people will be surprised to see this on here. I know that the "a" is long (like in "father"). My question is, shouldn't the "o" sound like the "o" in "toe" - since it, too, is long? The only reason I bring this up is because, in the movie, the "o" is pronounced like the "o" in "fog." This same question can be applied to Gothmog.
visualweasel:
Balrog. No, the o isn't long; it's short (as is the a). To be long in this word, it would have to be explicitly marked.
I believe you two are using the words "long" and "short" differently here. It seems duats is not referring to genuine length, which most modern English speakers don't even notice (I never did until someone pointed out that the a [actually æ] sound in bad is longer than that in bat), but to the definition of vowel "length" taught in primary schools, by which convention the a in hat is "short" but the a in hate is "long". As visualweasel would observe, this is not a difference in length at all.
So returning to "balrog": Tolkien says in LOTR Appendix E that the vowel sounds are those in "father" and "for". I can't think of an English word where the former is followed by an L, as in Tolkien's bal- but some Americans dialects would pronounce "I'll" nearly that way. As for the latter, I find it very frustrating that Tolkien's sample o is colored by the following r, which makes it difficult for me to isolate the vowel, but Tolkien's -rog would rhyme more with "rogue" than with "hog", wouldn't it? (Sorry BotR!)
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Oct 11 2011, 5:35pm
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For Théoden, Éomer, and Éowyn, the consonants are all the same as in Modern English, with two clarifications: (1) the th is soft, as in thin, and (2) the r should be rolled, trilled, or tapped. For the vowels, éo is pronounced as a single-syllable glide between the a in bagel and the o in hot. The e in the second syllable of the first two names is pronounced as in get; the y in Éowyn as in German mütter. For English-speakers, try making the sound of i in machine, but with your lips rounded into the same shap you would use to pronounce the u in rude. This is why it's sometimes called a fronted-u, by the way, and why it's written as a u (with or without umlaut) in some languages. The stress in all three names is on the first syllable. All three names, furthermore, are only two syllables each, not three. If you have access to Tolkien's recordings, listen to how he pronounces them.
Does that help at all?
Jason Fisher
Author/editor of Tolkien and the Study of His Sources: Critical Essays (McFarland, 2011)
Blog: Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
“On Fairy-stories” discussion 2008 – “Origins” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Oct 11 2011, 6:03pm
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Interesting example, giving the Southern American English monophthongization of I'll. That sounds about right, though many readers here may not know how that sounds. Your example also reminded me of Southern while, especially in while ago, pronounced something like wahllago. You hear this a lot where I live.
But I would say the second syllable is indeed closer to hog than to rogue, I think. You're right that it's very problematic that the example Tolkien gives is for. The pronunciation of that word depends so much on the dialect and accent — American English, British Received Pronunciation, West Midlands, etc. In the case of Tolkien's own pronunciation, the r is sounded (i.e., rhotic) — as opposed to Christopher Tolkien's RP in which it isn't (i.e., non-rhotic). The o is pronounced as the British pronounce hot, probably not quite as loose as the American pronunciation of the same word. Tolkien's o should be a bit more close and rounded, almost like the o in Italian. Listen to Tolkien's recordings and attend to how we pronounces words like for and Boromir.
Jason Fisher
Author/editor of Tolkien and the Study of His Sources: Critical Essays (McFarland, 2011)
Blog: Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
“On Fairy-stories” discussion 2008 – “Origins” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Oct 11 2011, 6:30pm
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My French teacher in Virginia taught us to pronounce the French 'a' in Madame by saying, "my dime". It's perfect!
Sign up now for discussions of the LotR Appendices, beginning Oct. 17!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Oct 11 2011, 6:56pm
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Jason Fisher
Author/editor of Tolkien and the Study of His Sources: Critical Essays (McFarland, 2011)
Blog: Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
“On Fairy-stories” discussion 2008 – “Origins” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
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duats
Hithlum
Oct 11 2011, 7:08pm
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If the entire diphthong "eo" is long, wouldn't the "o" sound more like the "o" in "boat?"
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Oct 11 2011, 7:29pm
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You're still thinking of the vowels individually. The long diphthong éo is pronounced as it were a smooth glide between two sounds: é (long) and o (short). That's not quite the same thing as pronouncing é, then o, though as I said before, it's probably close enough if you're having trouble with the diphthong. That would certainly be much better than some pronunciations I've heard (e.g., thee-OH-den). We call this diphthong long to differentiate it from the corresponding short diphthong, eo, which is a glide between e (short) and o (short), but again, this is just one syllable, not two.
Also, for what it's worth, our ideas about correct pronunciation of Old English are really just educated reconstruction. These reconstructed rules are based on sound* extrapolation from comparative Indo-European philology, but it's always possible we've gotten it wrong somewhere. There was also surely a lot of regional variation, and likely more than there is in English today. I haven't even mentioned the dialects of Old English in any of this! Point is, there's a fair bit of leeway here in any case.
* No pun intended. 
Jason Fisher
Author/editor of Tolkien and the Study of His Sources: Critical Essays (McFarland, 2011)
Blog: Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
“On Fairy-stories” discussion 2008 – “Origins” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
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duats
Hithlum
Oct 11 2011, 7:37pm
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In the website I posted above, they pronounced "éo" as "ey-oh." I guess they are mistaken.
I'll just keep practicing until it starts coming more natural to me. I can make the "y" sound, but it's difficult saying it in context.
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Oct 11 2011, 7:57pm
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and thank you for taking the time to explain this. I confess that I´m very confused by the concept of e and o in a diphtong; they seem too far removed from each other in the mouth to make the glide work. My inclination would be to pronounce it like the a in bagel and then just drop the o-part altogether. Which of Tolkien´s recordings should I listen to?
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geordie
Dor-Lomin
Oct 11 2011, 8:41pm
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I have here a copy of a set of type-written sheets titled 'Pronounciation Guide for The Lord of the Rings'. It was produced by the BBC in 1981, for the use of the cast in the Radio 4, from a tape prepared by Christopher Tolkien. It's quite interesting; for example for Eomer it gives 'ay-omair' ('ay' as in 'day').
Eothain is 'ay-othin' (th as in 'thin', 'i' as in 'high')
Eowyn is 'ay-o-win' ('o' as in 'no')
Theoden is 'thay-oden'.
The most interesting one for me, though, is Thengel, pronounced by Christopher as 'then-jell'. Though later, Christopher said that though this was correct if the name were A-S, his father pronounced it 'then-gel' for 'The Lord of the Rings'.
As for which tapes of Tolkien to listen to - there is only the one, boxed set of cds of JRR reading from TH and LotR. I think it also has his recordings from The Adventures of Tom Bombadil too; and Christopher reading from Silm.
The one I like best is a special one-off, given to delegates at the centenary conference held at Keble college, Oxford, in 1992. This is Tolkien's recording of his own 'The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm's Son', which he made at home in Sandfield Road, in the 1950s, on his own tape-recorder. (note - he wasn't completely anti-technology)  Christopher read out his father's Introduction to the piece, and then 'Ofermod'.
Tolkien recorded it all in one go, (as far as I can tell). Carpenter tells us that Tolkien provided his own sound effects; moving a piece of furniture to represent the creaking of a cart. It's one of my favourite pieces; when I listen to it on headphones, I can hear the clock ticking in Tolkien's room, and the sound of a car going by.
Wonderful!
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Oct 12 2011, 5:51am
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Christopher Tolkien's "Guide" to pronounciation also came up in a 2006 discussion of the pronunciation of "Thráin", where with the assistance of Douglas Anderson and Arden Smith, we found that name could be said either as a diphthong or disyllabically, depending, more or less, on how fast one was speaking. It would seem the same point applies to J.R.R. Tolkien's pronounciation of some of these Old English names. For instance, I've just listened again to some of his readings on The J.R.R. Audio Collection CD that you reference, and just in the opening minute of track 13 on disk 2, he pronounces "Éomer" two ways: at 0:03 the name has three syllables, as many modern English speakers are wont to say it, but at 0:28 it has only two, as visualweasel is advising us. (Elsewhere I notice that Tolkien pronounces the first a in "Aragorn" as I always used to do but contrary to the information in Appendix E, with a sound closer to the a in "cat" than that in "father".)
The one I like best is a special one-off, given to delegates at the centenary conference held at Keble college, Oxford, in 1992. This is Tolkien's recording of his own 'The Homecoming of Beorhtnoth Beorhthelm's Son', which he made at home in Sandfield Road, in the 1950s, on his own tape-recorder.
One 1992 attendee managed to get two copies of this cassette, and I purchased his spare on e-bay a few years ago. As you say, it's a delightful recording, fascinating also for its many small differences from the published text (I made a transcription of the recording for further review, but have never got 'round to doing anything with it.)
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geordie
Dor-Lomin
Oct 12 2011, 7:15am
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- I hadn't noticed any differences. Now I'll have to sit down with the book and the tape and a pen and paper.
Just one thing, though - when you say the published text, do you mean the one in _The Monsters and the Critics and Other Essays_? I have several editions, including at least one paperback; and also the original as published in _Essays and Studies 1953_
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geordie
Dor-Lomin
Oct 12 2011, 7:48am
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I've looked at that discussion you linked to
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- very interesting, but way above my head I'm afraid. I rely on my audio tapes for my knowledge of how to pronounce words found in Tolkien's writings. For instance, I wouldn't have a clue how to pronounce 'Hige sceal the heardra' (sp?) if it were not for hearing Christopher speaking it.
All this (excellent) high - level discussion on words and sounds has raised an irreverent thought in my mind - I'm put in mind of Goscinny and Uderzo's 'Asterix the Legionary' in which our heroes Asterix and Obelix join the Roman army in order to get back a young Gaul who'd been press-ganged. His name is Tragicomix - the clerks who talk to Asterix say,
'Is that tragicomix with a t, as in Timeo Danaos et dona ferentes?' 
I love Asterix books...
(This post was edited by geordie on Oct 12 2011, 7:50am)
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