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Maciliel
Doriath
Apr 15 2013, 12:57am
Post #51 of 64
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i don't know about all of that.
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i don't know about all of that... but i sure am starting to get the feeling that orcs are mammals.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Apr 15 2013, 9:07am
Post #52 of 64
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This is what I was trying to get at...
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But you said it far better than me. 
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boldog
Nargothrond
Apr 15 2013, 9:39am
Post #53 of 64
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actually if i can recall, i remember in the silmarillion that ungoliant was made from darkness, and she was in fact the purest of evils, thus the spiders of her brood are too. in many ways (as i imagined it) she seemed to be more evil than melkor himself!
orcs are made from elves and so should really have some traits still in them. its kind of like an evolutionary path. the orcs are an offshoot of elves. (lol biology) and as someone mentioned earlier, there are always exceptions to races of beings in middle earth. perhaps azog can be that exception, and be of non generic orc personality, in order to have a son..
"fingolfin looked up in grief to see what evil morgoth had done to maedhros"
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Lio
Menegroth
Apr 15 2013, 10:47pm
Post #54 of 64
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I don't know if it's the hot pink letters, the oversized text, or the well placed exclamation mark, but truly, my argument is beyond question and my logic flawless!
Orcs are mammals!
Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!
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Lio
Menegroth
Apr 15 2013, 10:52pm
Post #55 of 64
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Usually I'm not at all good at explaining things...
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So I'm quite glad to hear this. 
Orcs are mammals!
Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!
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Lio
Menegroth
Apr 15 2013, 10:59pm
Post #56 of 64
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That's an interesting point you bring up. And didn't Ungoliant eventually devour herself at last? A fitting end for a pure evil creature! 
Thanks for this thread by the way, I always welcome an opportunity to reiterate that Orcs are mammals. 
Orcs are mammals!
Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Apr 16 2013, 12:08am
Post #57 of 64
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The most accurate hypothesis based on careful and extensive lore, with only a touch of speculation for small gaps would be this, I believe. . .
1) earliest orc-like creatures, not really of Arda, but Maiar Demons, more fell and powerful than all other later orc types, and far fewer in number, a being far less mighty than a Balrog but also far mightier than any true orc. Boldog was likely one.
2) Elves captured early in The First Age and tormented and warped by Melkor, forced to breed with the demonic strain of orcs and perhaps with other fell things, leading to the first strain of true orcs.
3) The offspring of breeding amongst the first Elf derived true orc strain, both amongst themselves and other captured Elves.
4) Results of Men bred with the older Elf strain originated orcs and even still, none of them have the power to create true life from scratch. The Valar Aule created the dwarves, but it was Illuvatar who actually gave them life.
As for the Uruk-hai being dug out of the mud, this was totally a PJ-ism - since the timeline was all messed up, it was meant to show that Saruman bred an army in a short time, which was not the case in the books. In the books, the Isengard Uruk-hai were a result of Saruman cross-breeding orcs and men of Dunland (the "wild men" that were burning villages in Rohan). So yeah, there was some man-on-orc action going on behind the scenes in Isengard, and probably for quite a while too.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Salmacis81
Dor-Lomin
Apr 16 2013, 3:59pm
Post #58 of 64
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I recall reading about these creaures before, but were they ever really established as canon, or were they more of an early draft/Lost Tales type of thing?
It would make some sense with regard to corrupted elves/men producing orc offspring.
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Apr 16 2013, 8:24pm
Post #59 of 64
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They were the opposite of the early, unrevised, rough material. They were his later musings and notions,
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seen largely in Morgoth's Ring. That the very earliest orcs would not have truly been the orcs of later times at all, but the least of the demons of Melkor who haunted the woods in the early days of the awakening of the Elves: less powerful than other demonic servants, and certainly less potent than The Valaraukar, The Balrogs, Demons of Might, but still far more powerful, dangerous and fell than all other orc types that came after, though he speculated that their power was diminished somewhat as they became ever more trapped in the flesh they had assumed by long dwelling in it and mating amongst the Elves etc. I recall reading about these creaures before, but were they ever really established as canon, or were they more of an early draft/Lost Tales type of thing?
It would make some sense with regard to corrupted elves/men producing orc offspring.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Smeagol Bagginsess
Ossiriand
Apr 16 2013, 8:37pm
Post #60 of 64
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ORcs are irredeemably evil and hence have no emotions other than hatred for others.
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According to tolkiengateway:
"Orcs however, are not men. Unlike the wicked men who serve the Enemy, who might have been enslaved or beguiled, orcs are portrayed as irredeemably evil, or at least having a redemption outside the scope of the narrative. The origin of orcs is not clear, but they may be products of Morgoth's sorcery, or the descendants of tortured and ruined elves. Regardless of their origins they are not presented as a natural race, indeed there is no mention of orc women, children, villages, or culture."
Clearly stating, Orcs were irredeemably evil. There has been a lot of controversy regarding the irredeemability of the orcs, as being racist. But the fact persists, orcs have no emotions other than hatred. No compassion. No love. They are more like robots driven on by the hatred of Melkor and later Sauron.
And given to your comment about exceptions among Middle-earth races. Well, orcs are NOT a race. They are just mutilated forms or in Tolkien's words "mockeries" of the other races especially Elves. They were not created. A few of the different race was turned into them.
Imo, Orcs reproduced asexually but possessed the capacity to undergo sexual reproduction (given they were later crossed with men by Saruman.)
PS: Not picking up a fight with you. Just trying to give good arguments. Sorry, if I appeared too aggressive.
The Road goes Ever on and on.
Down from the door where it began.
How far ahead the Road has gone.
And I must follow if I can ...
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Salmacis81
Dor-Lomin
Apr 16 2013, 11:10pm
Post #61 of 64
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Now I remember that being from Morgoth's Ring...
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Apr 18 2013, 4:47am
Post #62 of 64
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Tolkiengateway and other websites like it don't always have the facts straight. . .at all.
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If Tolkien did not say exactly that (and he didn't. . . there is an entire running commentary on it in Morgoth's Ring) then it isn't beyond question. They were never Sauron's robots, for Sauron was not the original source of evil, Melkor was. Though certainly the bonds they laid were deep. Children are mentioned in so much as Bolg is Azog's child, and Tolkien specifically states that Orcs reproduced in the manner of Elves and Men. Melkor, who could not create life, could only have managed this by corrupting other forms of life. They are a race. A mutilated race that starts reproducing others more akin to itself than to the original species it branched off from is a legitimate sub-species.
Again, Tolkien SPECIFICALLY states that they reproduced after the manner of Elves and men. They did NOT reproduce asexually. According to tolkiengateway: "Orcs however, are not men. Unlike the wicked men who serve the Enemy, who might have been enslaved or beguiled, orcs are portrayed as irredeemably evil, or at least having a redemption outside the scope of the narrative. The origin of orcs is not clear, but they may be products of Morgoth's sorcery, or the descendants of tortured and ruined elves. Regardless of their origins they are not presented as a natural race, indeed there is no mention of orc women, children, villages, or culture." Clearly stating, Orcs were irredeemably evil. There has been a lot of controversy regarding the irredeemability of the orcs, as being racist. But the fact persists, orcs have no emotions other than hatred. No compassion. No love. They are more like robots driven on by the hatred of Melkor and later Sauron. And given to your comment about exceptions among Middle-earth races. Well, orcs are NOT a race. They are just mutilated forms or in Tolkien's words "mockeries" of the other races especially Elves. They were not created. A few of the different race was turned into them. Imo, Orcs reproduced asexually but possessed the capacity to undergo sexual reproduction (given they were later crossed with men by Saruman.) PS: Not picking up a fight with you. Just trying to give good arguments. Sorry, if I appeared too aggressive.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Smeagol Bagginsess
Ossiriand
Apr 18 2013, 10:17am
Post #63 of 64
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"Tolkiengateway and other websites like it don't always have the facts straight. . .at all."
everyone has their own opinions of course. I quoted from Tolkiengateway because I did not had the books at hand.
And I think it's quite surprising to brush the hardwork of these sites as something "imagined" or not derived from Tolkien's works.(not to mention that most of the data stored are correct). Anyway, it's up to you. I find gateway and encyclopedia of Arda excellent sites for quick reference as they are.
"there is an entire running commentary on it in Morgoth's Ring"
Sure. But Tolkien had originally written orcs as they are seen (purely evil) in LOTR. Only after a long time he observed the flawed morality of his world much and made the corrections.
One has to keep in mind that LOTR and Sil are meant to be written from the point of view of the free-people. So it's not that of a surprise that orcs are mentioned as irredeemable. And these arguments too, I suppose, are on that context?
"They were never Sauron's robots, for Sauron was not the original source of evil, Melkor was."
When did I said they were Saron's robos? I already stated that the orcs were driven by the hatred of Melkor. And when he fell, his hatred survived in Sauron. Sauron's thoughts drove the orcs in many ways (you'll actually get many occurrences of this in LOTR iteslf). In short, Melkor's hate, through Sauron, controlled the orcs.
"Tolkien specifically states that Orcs reproduced in the manner of Elves and Men."
I was speculating actually about them reproducing asexually. I knew I may be wrong.
"They are a race. A mutilated race that starts reproducing others more akin to itself than to the original species it branched off from is a legitimate sub-species. "
A race in Arda means genetically as well as culturally different.
Orcs can be said to be genetically related to Elves. They were not created. they were derived. Just to make it easy to understand, if some terrorist group starts picking up normal innocent people and brainwash them to do evil things, would you call them an alien race?
Anyway, I believe Azog had no wife. Perhaps a spouse (as someone mentioned earlier). The orcs cannot be imagined to be loved or attracted, imo. Much like the honeybee colonies, perhaps there are queen orcs hidden who mates with all male orcs?
As there are no mention of female orcs, we have to believe that there are none (which I believe) or there are very few of them.
The Road goes Ever on and on.
Down from the door where it began.
How far ahead the Road has gone.
And I must follow if I can ...
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Apr 18 2013, 2:47pm
Post #64 of 64
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Please, forgive me if I skip down to your final comments:
Anyway, I believe Azog had no wife. Perhaps a spouse (as someone mentioned earlier). The orcs cannot be imagined to be loved or attracted, imo. Much like the honeybee colonies, perhaps there are queen orcs hidden who mates with all male orcs? As there are no mention of female orcs, we have to believe that there are none (which I believe) or there are very few of them.
I think that the term 'mate' might be the most appropriate for describing the relationship between a male and female Orc. I would not be surprised if male Orcs of greater stature within a colony kept a harem of several mates, although that is not necessarily the case.
Tolkien's statement about Orcs mating in the manner of Elves and Men directly contradicts your claim that he never mentions femal Orcs. None are named as individuals, but Tolkien at least confirmed that they exist. Because female Orcs seem to have no place in Orkish warfare, we cannot know if they are few or numerous. It seems that they are seldom (if ever) seen outside of Orc-lairs. They are no doubt responsible for raising their young and for maintaining their den if their mates do not possess any slaves (Snaga or Mannish).
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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