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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Apr 13 2013, 5:34pm
Post #26 of 64
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I am saying it would certainly be possible. That is what Saruman's orcs were in the books.
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an unhappy woman? so your saying Bolg is half orc half human?
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Apr 13 2013, 5:39pm
Post #27 of 64
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I think he would desire revenge. Not out of love for his father, but out of outrage that anyone
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(other than himself) would dare to raise a hand against HIS father. It is the possession that matters, the affront to him that is done by harming something to which he has claim of kinship. Just as Smaug couldn't have given a whiff about the chalice Bilbo stole, save that it was HIS chalice, and how dare anyone lay hands upn it. I think Bolg will have geniuine rage and a desire to have vengance, but the way a possesive person would want revenge for someone vandalizing their home, not the type the normal person would desire for injury to a relative. Azog is a dominant orc, the leader of the Gundabad orcs. So Bolg is probably heir to that power. I don't think, when Azog dies, Bolg has much emotional interest in getting revenge. I think he's more interested in asserting his new-acquired power as the leader.  Of course, the best way to demonstrate his power is by taking revenge, so that's what he does.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Fredeghar Wayfarer
Menegroth
Apr 13 2013, 5:48pm
Post #28 of 64
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"Mate" seems more accurate than "wife"
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Orcs are a violent, bestial species. I don't really see them having marriages or families. Horrific as it might be to imagine, female orcs are likely just used as breeding stock to populate the Dark Lord's armies. That could be why we never see them in the books or films. Their role in orc society is to simply multiply like rabbits.
If there's any relationship between Azog and Bolg in the movies, it will probably be one of vying for power or dominance. I could see Bolg wanting revenge on the Dwarves for Azog's (eventual) death. But only to punish the "filthy dwarf-scum" for their insult, not because there's much love between orc fathers and sons.
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Apr 13 2013, 5:49pm
Post #29 of 64
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Yet glimpses were given into their corrupt "humanity" as it were.
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Shagrat's commentary among other things. They were corrupt, beyond the ability of men or Elves to reform. . . but not utterly evil in the way of Melkor and the Balrogs. They had been filled with fear of The Elves, through the lies of Melkor and of Sauron. . . they were wretched, hating themselves for what they were, hating the Powers who had made them thus.. . . the Elves were to treat them with pity, as Gandalf said he pitied "even Sauron's slaves," but these high ideals were often forgotten in the dreadful wars.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Captain Salt
Dor-Lomin
Apr 13 2013, 6:09pm
Post #30 of 64
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She certainly seems hostile toward the Orc in the Dos preview...perhaps some lingering hostility toward her jilted lover? Though Bolg doesn't really look like E.Lilly...I wonder if she's adopted?
My Top 5 Wish List for "The Hobbit"
5. Legolas will surf down Smaug's neck
4. Bilbo will be revealed to a Robot
3. Naked PJ cameo as Ghan-Buri-Ghan
2. Use of not only 3D, but smell-o-vision, plus the inclusion of axes coming out of the seats and poking the audience when appropriate
1. Not only keep the claim that Thorin & Co. ran amok in Mirkwood "molesting people", but depict said incident in vivid detail!!!!!
(This post was edited by Captain Salt on Apr 13 2013, 6:09pm)
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MouthofSauron
Dor-Lomin
Apr 13 2013, 6:19pm
Post #31 of 64
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interesting because in the film FOTR
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it shows them pulling the uruks out of the mud.
take me down to the woodland realm where the trees are green and the elf women are pretty....Oh will you please take me home!!
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Apr 13 2013, 6:39pm
Post #32 of 64
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Because Peter likes making crap up and altering the story at times. And, of course,
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because stupid, backwards prude morality runs things in many lands, and it is somehow more acceptable to show the severing of limbs than to acknowledge, without any graphic representation, that yeah, mammals have babies. -_-  
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
(This post was edited by AinurOlorin on Apr 13 2013, 6:39pm)
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QuackingTroll
Doriath
Apr 13 2013, 6:55pm
Post #33 of 64
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That's interesting... I remember when reading The Hobbit
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Tolkien says that the only creatures the elves of Mirkwood did not have mercy on were the spiders. This made me think of how they treat orcs, and according to your quote they did indeed pity the orcs. I wonder if this will be shown with Tauriel's orc-prisoner?
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QuackingTroll
Doriath
Apr 13 2013, 7:16pm
Post #34 of 64
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Notice that the Uruk Hai are born as adults?
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I don't think Saruman created "new life" here. I think that he got orcs, he buried them with magic and then dug them up as Uruk Hai.
Even if it is "new life", they're very different from Orcs. Uruk Hai were made by a Maiar, Orcs by an Ainur. So maybe Maiar creations are unable to reproduce? There are a million possibilities, really. Orc origins come up so often on these boards, but no-one can really give a right or wrong answer, because Tolkien didn't give us enough information.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Apr 13 2013, 8:04pm
Post #35 of 64
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I agree. I see Orcs as mating, not marrying. They might possibly mate for life, but I would think that divorces would be 'messy'. Male Orcs might even take more than one mate at a time.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Apr 13 2013, 8:10pm
Post #36 of 64
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In the films, my impression is that Saruman needed to build his army much more quickly; Tolkien allowed him several decades to develop his plans, while Jackson took away about fifteen of those years. Therefore, rather than slowly build his forces from recruited Men and Mordor Orcs while breeding his own Half-orcs, Saruman was forced to develop an alchemical technique to breed his own Uruk-hai (with the Half-orcs from the book becoming wholly ignored).
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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Lio
Menegroth
Apr 13 2013, 11:52pm
Post #37 of 64
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Not Azog, but it does bring what Tauriel really thinks of Orcs into question!
Still, funny how both Tauriel and Azog are hated by certain segments of the fandom. I have a feeling that some fans would like nothing more than for them to run off together and rid the movies of their non-canon-ness.  (Cue Azog and Tauriel riding off into the sunset on Daisy the Warg as sappy music plays...)
Orcs are mammals!
Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!
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Lio
Menegroth
Apr 14 2013, 12:27am
Post #38 of 64
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I think it's more due to lazy storytelling
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Or, to take a kinder view, the need to show a compressed version of events due to the changes in the timeline. They had to explain how Saruman was able to raise an army from scratch in, what, a few months? And the "mud pit" scenario was the easy way out, and more economical than showing Saruman recruiting Orcs into his service, creating his Uruk-hai over several decades, training and setting up an army, etc. (Come to think of it, was it ever explained in the books where Saruman's Orcs came from? Mordor or the Misty Mountains? I don't recall reading about it.)
Anyway, I don't see what "prude morality" has to do with it (and last I checked morality was a good thing  ) or what severed limbs have on birthin' babies. It's not like we'd have to see Mr and Mrs Uruk actually making those babies even if they did acknowledge it. Although I'm sure said babies would be adorable. Aww!  (Sorry. Some of the posts in this thread have me so weirded out that I must resort to weirdness of my own to displace them.  )
Orcs are mammals!
Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Apr 14 2013, 3:06pm
Post #40 of 64
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Or, to take a kinder view, the need to show a compressed version of events due to the changes in the timeline. They had to explain how Saruman was able to raise an army from scratch in, what, a few months? And the "mud pit" scenario was the easy way out, and more economical than showing Saruman recruiting Orcs into his service, creating his Uruk-hai over several decades, training and setting up an army, etc. (Come to think of it, was it ever explained in the books where Saruman's Orcs came from? Mordor or the Misty Mountains? I don't recall reading about it.)
The literary Uruk-hai seem to have been originally bred by Sauron. Saruman must have recruited his first Uruk-hai, but breeding may have also increased their numbers. In the books, he is better known for developing his own Half-orcs, who are more Man-like than the Uruk-hai or Goblins, and could pass for humans (Easterlings or Haradrim). Saruman used them as spies and thugs.
'There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.' - Gandalf the Grey, The Fellowship of the Ring
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axecrazy
Ossiriand
Apr 14 2013, 5:05pm
Post #41 of 64
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and scary. I don't want to think about Azog's family life. I mean look at his equivalent of a pet dog. No, not going there. And I'm sure PJ won't either. How Azog has a son is irrelevant. We may get a passing mention of mommy dearest, but that's all. Great posts as always, Lio.
Azog: Defiling since 2790
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Salmacis81
Dor-Lomin
Apr 14 2013, 6:55pm
Post #42 of 64
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Both the Valar and Maiar are Ainur...
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and even still, none of them have the power to create true life from scratch. The Valar Aule created the dwarves, but it was Illuvatar who actually gave them life.
As for the Uruk-hai being dug out of the mud, this was totally a PJ-ism - since the timeline was all messed up, it was meant to show that Saruman bred an army in a short time, which was not the case in the books. In the books, the Isengard Uruk-hai were a result of Saruman cross-breeding orcs and men of Dunland (the "wild men" that were burning villages in Rohan). So yeah, there was some man-on-orc action going on behind the scenes in Isengard, and probably for quite a while too.
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Smeagol Bagginsess
Ossiriand
Apr 14 2013, 7:12pm
Post #43 of 64
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Orcs have no families. Orcs need no families.
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Orcs, according to JRRT, represented extreme evil. So they do not have love for any thing. I repeat: ANYTHING. Families, of course are built up on love and relationships. What makes you think Orcs would "love" anyone, even from their own race. I think it'd be appropriate if there wasn't any affection at all between Azog and Bolg.
Also, who says that if you have a son, you gotta get a wife??? Take bacteria as an example. 
The Road goes Ever on and on.
Down from the door where it began.
How far ahead the Road has gone.
And I must follow if I can ...
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Salmacis81
Dor-Lomin
Apr 14 2013, 7:34pm
Post #44 of 64
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I doubt there is a such thing as a "nuclear family" structure in orc society. Orc fathers are most likely absentee dads. I can't see orc moms having much of a motherly instinct, but they would have to have at least somewhat of a motherly instinct for any of the young to survive into adulthood. There's not much in real-life to compare it to, because there aren't any genetically "evil" life-forms LOL.
However, I'm thinking that orc-chieftains such as Azog and the Great Goblin probably have harems of sorts, and get what they want, when they want.
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Apr 14 2013, 7:35pm
Post #45 of 64
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*Human* familes are built on love and relationships
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Who says that Orcs don't have the same biochemical reaction, hormones and higher reasoning as a human family?
Was the mutilation of Elves just physical, or was it also chemical, biochemical and psychological?
And even if they do not have the same reasoning, maybe they still have the same family structure, minus the "love". The animal world is full of different family structures, with varying degrees of structure and love. Penguins may mate for life, and put all their energy into raising a single hatchling. Are they aware they are in love? Their is little evidence that an animal with conciously decide to fall in love or to not be in love. A pride of lions consists of related females and offspring and a small number of adult males. A lion pride is structured just like a human family, but does the dominant male "love".
Who decides whether an animal, or Orc, can or does love? If you consider love to be the combination of chemicals causing jealousy, attachment, familiarity, protective behavior, desire to mate, comfort with another, etc. then chances are that animals (at least mammals, and therefore Orcs) do fall in love since they have the same chemicals flowing through their brain as we do.
For the record, I don't necessarily disagree (or agree) with your comment. I'm just putting it out there - maybe Orcs can love. Shagrat and Gorbag considered abandoning Sauron. Is that evidence of a friendship and relationship (I don't mean romantic)?
(This post was edited by DanielLB on Apr 14 2013, 7:43pm)
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Salmacis81
Dor-Lomin
Apr 14 2013, 7:47pm
Post #46 of 64
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Maybe there are actual monogamous orc relationships....
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But it's very hard to picture. If anything, I think it would be more like a pride of lions, in that the dominant male has his harem of females, and the whelps have to prove themselves before they get any tail.
I'm thinking that the mutilation of the elves, or whatever it was that truly made the orcs what they were, probably took a very long time to happen. Seeing as how Melkor was supposed to have been more powerful than anything we know of in real-life, who knows in what ways he was able to twist the biology of the elves, or men, that he made into orcs. If Isildur was able to curse the men of Dunharrow the way he did, imagine what Melkor would have been able to do, especially in those early days before he had spread his innate power too thin.
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Smeagol Bagginsess
Ossiriand
Apr 14 2013, 7:59pm
Post #47 of 64
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Tolkien has been stated many times about Orcs and their hatred for EVERYTHING.
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For the record, I don't necessarily disagree (or agree) with your comment. I'm just putting it out there - maybe Orcs can love. Shagrat and Gorbag considered abandoning Sauron. Is that evidence of a friendship and relationship (I don't mean romantic)?
Give me one instance where an orc shows love (any kind).
No. Orcs were created by Morgoth in mockery of the Elves and men. They were opposite in everyway possible to them. That is while the Elves love all things, orcs hate all things (even themselves).
As for the Shagrat-Gorbag instance you mentioned, how can be that an evidence of friendship? Just because they have a common motive doesn't mean they have bonds of friendship (or even compassion for that matter). If two criminals attempt a jail-break, does that mean they are friends?
Anyway, JRRT has explicitly stated about Orcs and how they don't love anyone or anything on ME in his letters. You should check'em out.
The Road goes Ever on and on.
Down from the door where it began.
How far ahead the Road has gone.
And I must follow if I can ...
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DanielLB
Elvenhome
Apr 14 2013, 8:28pm
Post #48 of 64
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But there are also different levels of friendship
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Gorbag and Shagrat didn't need to be best buddies to abandon Sauron. But there has to be some level of trust between the two - hence they had the whispered conversation away from the other group of Orcs. Two criminals might not be best friends, but they need to trust each other. That is evidence of a relationship in my eyes.
I have checked out Tolkien's letters before, more than once (not that it has anything to do with this). I haven't given my opinion on whether I agree or disagree with you yet. I was putting it out there that it *might* be possible, given what we know about families and love between other animals in the mammal kingdom.
Is there more to Middle-earth than what is written on the pages? The wonderful thing about Tolkien is that his books allow us to keep being able to dream and envisage his world in our own heads. Though it enters the realm of speculation, who's to say that some Orcs, in some corner of Middle-earth, during some Age, did love one another?
In every race of Middle-earth, there is always one that bucks the trend (Feanor, Melkor, Mim, among many others). I'm sure there is one Orc who also breaks the trend once in a while.
But that is, of course, all speculation. That's the other wonderful thing about Tolkien. He doesn't hand it to us all on a plate. We can speculate on what might be beyond the black and white of the pages.
(This post was edited by DanielLB on Apr 14 2013, 8:30pm)
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QuackingTroll
Doriath
Apr 14 2013, 8:32pm
Post #49 of 64
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Funny, I'm watching the Shawshank Redemption right now. Why can't criminals be friends? //
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(This post was edited by QuackingTroll on Apr 14 2013, 8:33pm)
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Lio
Menegroth
Apr 15 2013, 12:23am
Post #50 of 64
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Maybe the Orcs' corruption makes it difficult (if not impossible) for them to love anything in the true sense of the word, but we know they can at least like things. (Things like, um, torturing people! And uh, singing about torturing people! But anyway. ) Maybe the same can apply to their relationships (friendship, marriage, whatever). I mean, it seems like quite a few people here are objecting to the idea of Orcs having friends or families and I don't quite understand why. Even evil people have a sense of kinship, so why not Orcs?
I also honestly don't think they're pure evil like a lot of people seem to make them out to be. Pure evil is nothing and if they were really so I don't believe they would survive for a single generation, much less be able to trouble Middle-earth for so many ages as they have. Surely they can't be worse than Morgoth himself?
Orcs are mammals!
Want to chat? AIM me at Yami Liokaiser!
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