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Lurker in the Mirk
Doriath
Jul 15 2014, 9:59am
Post #26 of 36
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Well, these strangers were in an impromptu Spider soiree
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Its more danger and less wisdom at play, I think, as you've noted with the Elves' attitude towards the Dwarves. I do feel the uncertainties of the times gave rise to their "menace first, ask questions later" policy, since barely anyone traverse the Forest by this time and there's all those rumours of dark alliances going on - no one's a friend unless already proven a friend, and given the long-standing enmity between Dwarves and Elves, they'd assume the worst, But they're not all totally unkind, as mentioned, the Elves could very well have let the Spiders have their soiree and just mop up afters. Stopping the Spiders while not harming the Company surely took some doing, even for these ninjas of the Forest.
He's outright nasty "stay here if you will, and rot"
And why did Thranduil have an army lined up around Erebor when the dragon came, anyway? Re the stay and rot, I think we'll find in the EE it was a repartee to something Thorin spat out, prolly another choice Dwarvish greeting, because it just seemed odd by itself in the TE.
The army though, it is a strange thing. I gathered it was to negotiate for the return of them white gems Thror kept away in his face. He didn't go ballistic right then, so probably went home, stewed on it for a bit and decided he wanted the gems even if it hurts. But I don't think it was a meant to be a proper military incursion since he had his crown of thorns and berries and wasn't in battle-gear at all.
PS. I always enjoy Thranduil's shocked expression, mainly because in thousands of years, probably no being has spoken to the powerful and elegant Elven King in that manner, or held up a mirror and called him to account. I don't know that it's guilt, exactly. But I think there's the anger we might feel if we made a difficult choice at some point, and yet, there was NEVER a good choice to begin with, no matter what you did. "Do not talk to me of dragon fire, I know its wrath..." And there might be shame, because even if the elves didn't want to battle Smaug, Thorin makes it clear at some point Thranduil "turned his back" on his starving people - why? So does Thorin's reminding Thranduil of that, so recently, help Thranduil in NOT turning his back, this time?   I'm wondering too. The choice as you say, is a difficult one, and Thranduil's probably justified, to his thinking, in not getting involved with Smaug's business right then and needlessly wasting his people's lives along with the Dwarves (probably as informed by his prior experience). The turning the back bit though is a bit baffling - seems like there was a subsequent aid request? Was Thorin personally involved or there in the request for help? Could the Dwarves be so desperate as to ask for help from Thranduil after effectively thumping their noses thoroughly at him with the White Gems deal? Why didn't they go to the other Dwarf nations for help instead? Or why didn't those other Dwarven nations come to Erebor's aid? Well, probably Dwarven mentality's different from human - we wouldn't go begging at the door of someone we've thoroughly humiliated and burned all bridges with unless we've hit absolute bottom and there was no other choice. Still, Thranduil's alleged betrayal(s) is all so... underdeveloped as it stands. (Yeah, I'm a Thrall of Thranduil's, doesn't mean I leave my brain at the door just cos it's him we're psychoanalysing... well, not all the time anyway)
Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
 Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
 Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
=======
 Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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Lurker in the Mirk
Doriath
Jul 15 2014, 10:03am
Post #27 of 36
(369 views)
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And there are those like me who love the jagged edges, and the shadows. After all, adding black to any color makes it richer. And I love that both Thorin and Thranduil are beautiful, and have claws. The film Aragorn drove me mad...I was so happy to see him kick that helmet in TTT. 
Re Aragorn kicking that helm-always reminded of the bit I read which said VM did injure his toe badly with the one kick and he just continued emoting until PJ yelled "cut". That's dedication worth admiring, in spite of his alleged views about TH.
Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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Lurker in the Mirk
Doriath
Jul 15 2014, 10:04am
Post #28 of 36
(362 views)
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Very interesting to know these little gems of information about the book.
Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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Lurker in the Mirk
Doriath
Jul 15 2014, 10:06am
Post #29 of 36
(366 views)
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Good one, Glassary. No one but no one disrupts the Elvenking's wine supply
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@ Avandel: *ahem* But of course! *draws attention to Thranduil's anticipation of wine shipment in the Wars*
Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
(This post was edited by Lurker in the Mirk on Jul 15 2014, 10:07am)
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Noria
Hithlum
Jul 15 2014, 3:04pm
Post #30 of 36
(366 views)
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Of course PJ is ramping up the Dwarf/Elf conflict for dramatic purposes and of course in general the Elves are good.
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But even in the book, the Mirkwood Elves don’t strike me as unrelievedly good, at least they don’t always act so.
When they catch a party of lost, unarmed and starving Dwarves stumbling around in their woods, they imprison them indefinitely for the crime of trespassing and because the king doesn't like their attitude.
Why does the book Elven King initially set out for Erebor after he hears of the death of Smaug? He remembers the treasure and off he and his army go to loot the mountain. Of course they do turn aside to help the people of Laketown, and that is good. I’m not saying Thranduil is a villain.
I remember being surprised the first time I read The Hobbit that Bilbo chose to stand with the Elven King at the BoFA. Later I came to understand how much Tolkien venerated the Elves so of course Bilbo did too.
The movie Elves capture and imprison the Dwarves just because they are Dwarves. Thranduil was willing to cut a deal with Thorin for a share of the loot but Thorin was too stupid to consider it.
I like all these characters a lot and find them very interesting, not least because they are flawed. But they are what they are and they do what they do and though it’s interesting to try to understand them, I see no reason to try to rationalize their actions or justify their behavior. I suppose I have neither a nostalgic fondness for the book characters or a visceral response to the movie hotties. Not that either of those things is bad. I just don't feel that kind of love for them.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Doriath
Jul 16 2014, 9:02pm
Post #31 of 36
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Well this is an interesting discussion. I asked a few months ago WHY Bilbo would rather stand with the Elven-King, and was reminded that many weeks passed in the book, and Bilbo noticed the Elves fed their prisoners and didn't mistreat them. In the movie it's more like a single day, so all we see is the "less wise & more dangerous" part. Then there's the way Thranduil treats Tauriel, and his "other lands are not MY concern," i.e. he's a real JERK! However, he will obviously leave the forest, my guess is in search of Legolas. It's possible, based on a pic I've seen of Bard & Legolas, that it's actually Legolas who comes to the aid of Lake-town. He may press the point to his father that Lake-town SHOULD be part of his concern. Again, Thorin promised that "all would share", so the Lake-towners are obviously expecting a pretty good cut. It would make sense, if all Thranduil wants is his diamonds, to throw in with the Lake-towners in order to get those diamonds. In the book they all went to Erebor expecting to find 13 charred corpses - probably little reason for them to think otherwise in the movie. Somebody also explained to me that, in the book the Elven-King was moved by Bilbo's "self-less act." I think it's remotely possible that this could happen in the movie, but I think more likely that IF Thranduil has a genuine change of heart it will be because of Legolas and Tauriel (cue sappy death scene).
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Kilidoescartwheels
Doriath
Jul 16 2014, 9:05pm
Post #32 of 36
(310 views)
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"Thranduil was willing to cut a deal with Thorin for a share of the loot but Thorin was too stupid to consider it."
Not stupid - arrogant and prideful, IMO. Would have been better for the Dwarves if Thorin had relented on that point, but then again the Barrel escape was too important to skip. Change and alter, sure, but don't skip it!!! That's still my fav scene in DOS!
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Avandel
Gondolin
Jul 17 2014, 3:43am
Post #33 of 36
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You have it right there! I think Thranduil and Thorin are more alike than they care to admit, which makes the Battle after-math all the more poignant, especially if they come to an understanding before the end. And that would have been a fascinating relationship, had it ever been allowed to develop. At least as depicted it's interesting too, in the EE it's pretty obvious that Thorin didn't know Thror was going to withhold the gems from Thranduil, nor did he consider the elves wholly alienated from the dwarves, since he was calling them to help.
And I wonder, would it ever cross Thranduil's mind that Thorin's behavior isn't all that different, really from Oropher's - who sounds pretty fiery in his own right (thanks to stuff I learned from the TA threads!)
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Lurker in the Mirk
Doriath
Jul 17 2014, 12:30pm
Post #34 of 36
(285 views)
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And I wonder, would it ever cross Thranduil's mind that Thorin's behavior isn't all that different, really from Oropher's - who sounds pretty fiery in his own right (thanks to stuff I learned from the TA threads! )
Fan of both books and movies; it seems I have severely misnamed myself... for the moment.
Appreciating Thranduil, thread by thread: I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII, VIII
(Tis true! More appreciation threads for Thranduil exist than ME movies)
Thrall Wars!: What business do Elves, Dwarves or Men(?) have with drooling thralls, yea, with smartphones in tow, unto the slopes of Erebor? ... oh, yes, the Hobbit's lingering in some shadows, ever ready to swoop to the hairy rescue. Take cover if you dare!
Teh partsies: Prologue (aka the 'tater-mash of whatever came before), Two, Three, Four new! posted 16 Jul
"BoFA"= The Battle || "BotFA"/"tBofTA" = The Hobbit: The Battle of the Five Armies
=======
Middle-earth dispatches out of the lurkmirk
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Noria
Hithlum
Jul 17 2014, 8:04pm
Post #35 of 36
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Arrogance, pride and stupidity
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IMO arrogance and pride that prevent a person from making good choices equals stupidity.
However it's the tragic flaws of a hero that make him tragic and Thorin needs to be what he is for the story. We all make bad choices in life because of our character flaws.
I certainly wouldn't have wanted to miss the barrel sequence either.
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Salmacis81
Dor-Lomin
Jul 17 2014, 8:32pm
Post #36 of 36
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I have a feeling Legolas is going to be the one to prod Thranduil to take action...
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When we left off, Legolas was off chasing after Bolg. I believe that Bolg is probably headed for Dol Guldur and will meet up with the Orc horde along the way, and Legolas sees it, prompting him to return to his father and tell him that there is a battle brewing. Sort of like when Aragorn fell off the cliff, came to, and caught a glimpse of Saruman's forces on the march. (We all know how much PJ likes repeating ideas from the LotR films.)
I have a hard time seeing PJ playing it like the book, because he has portrayed Tauriel as being the catalyst for Legolas to change his mind about things. So Tauriel convinces Legolas, Legolas convinces Thranduil - that's how I think it'll play out. I'd be pleasantly surprised if he did have Thranduil come to the decision on his own like in the book, but I doubt it.
(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Jul 17 2014, 8:35pm)
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