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Loneanimator
Lindon
Oct 30 2008, 6:30am
Post #1 of 16
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Thoughts about Tolkien fan films
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There are obviously a lot of parodies made and being made about the Lord of the Rings, and they are quite obvious stuff. But there are also a fair amount of pure fan films being created; Projects that, although almost always directly inspired by the films, adapt something from Tolkien’s other texts (The Silmarillion, appendices, et al) and that try very hard to do the source material justice. They never succeed, of course, since all these projects are often no-budget-at-all projects. But the noble intention is certainly there. I think it’s also an obvious opportunity to step into Tolkien’s world and live in Middle-earth for the time it takes to make the film. Look at some of these fan films being “marketed” on various web pages –they never seem to get finished. Maybe the filmmakers are enjoying themselves too much?
Now, the object of all this love and sincerity from the fans is copyrighted, and the rights concerning Tolkien’s works seem to be strictly guarded and monitored. It would be very interesting to find out what the Tolkien estate thinks about all the serious fan films being made. I actually wrote to them a while back asking that very question, but I never got a reply. As far as I know, at least one ambitious fan project was halted after the makers were contacted by the Tolkien estate. Basically, this means that the fan film projects that could really do Tolkien justice are stopped, while (technically) lesser films slip through. This could mean that people not aware of this fact will judge ALL Tolken fan films as quite inferior to, for instance, the many slick Star Wars fan films.
I am a Tolken fan film maker myself –that’s why I’m ranting away here. Right now I’m finishing an animated adaptation of the poem ”The Mewlips”, with music by Englishman Colin Rudd. When that is done I’ll go on to some other poems, but I’d certainly like to do my own live-action versions (mixed with animation) of parts from the stories. And there seems to be a big interest among the people I usually work with when making films. Some of them are LARPers, and besides having lots of cool clothes and equipment, they have actually read the books and love them. Actually, it is the quality of these people that urge me to use them for such projects. I have a dancer friend who would make an excellent Luthien, I know people that would be perfect as elves, rangers, dwarves –I even have a pal who looks just like Tom Bombadil, for crying out loud!
And the same truth goes for me as for the rest of the fans; I enjoy spending time in Middle-earth. I like doing the research, creating the props, seeing my friends turn into characters from the tales. Would Tolkien have approved of the fan films? I’m sure he would’ve enjoyed at least some of them, and they are –most importantly- being done in the spirit of his ambitions, that his tales would be augmented by “…other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama.”
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
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Oct 30 2008, 11:12pm
Post #2 of 16
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Now, the object of all this love and sincerity from the fans is copyrighted, and the rights concerning Tolkien’s works seem to be strictly guarded and monitored. It would be very interesting to find out what the Tolkien estate thinks about all the serious fan films being made.
I completely understand the estate's protectiveness of the material, so I do wonder what they think of the fan-works that are created in any medium - but I suppose in particular the films that are being made as they are particularly high-profile.
One question: What are LARPers?
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Beorneo7
Lindon
Oct 31 2008, 2:45am
Post #3 of 16
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LARP means Live Action Roleplay
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I can't help but think that the Tolkien Estate is still scarred by the infamous Zaentz / Bakshi outting. Maybe they are just feel they are the safeguard of the integrity of the work all artists have to suffer for the faults and the flubs of the few. When dealing with copyright material I have to believe that a strong line is the only kind of line to hold on this matter.
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Ataahua
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Oct 31 2008, 6:23am
Post #4 of 16
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Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Loneanimator
Lindon
Oct 31 2008, 6:39am
Post #5 of 16
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I'm no role-player myself, but I've so much in contact with them that I've become infected by their nerd vocabulary!
By the way -Your avatar illustration. Isn't it time to put in king Guillermo next to king PJ?
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Loneanimator
Lindon
Oct 31 2008, 6:51am
Post #6 of 16
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There will always be fan interpretations
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There's nothing the Tolkien estate, George Lucas, the Star Trek franchise or any other copyright holder can do about it. There will be music, art and films based on people's favorite stories. There's a Swedish underground rock band called "Han Solo". Would Lucas disapprove or would he laugh it off?
The "fair use" doctrine in the US Copyright law is often applied, but of course only concern works created in the US. But the part about "the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work" is, I think, something that can be taken into consideration universally. Will me making a short film about hobbits and posting it on YouTube diminish the value of Tolkien's work? Is there a difference between the people doing it for love and the people doing it for love and money? I certainly think so.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
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Oct 31 2008, 8:23am
Post #7 of 16
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she's already drawn the full Argonath with Guillermo alongside PJ. :)
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Loneanimator
Lindon
Oct 31 2008, 8:48am
Post #8 of 16
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See if I can tell them apart. I guess Guillermo combs his hair :)
"I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave amny only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cucles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama."
J. R: R: Tolkien
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Nov 10 2008, 11:33pm
Post #9 of 16
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I’m sure he would’ve enjoyed at least some of them, and they are –most importantly- being done in the spirit of his ambitions, that his tales would be augmented by “…other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama.”
Don’t forget the Ace debacle, though, where Tolkien gave as clear an opinion as you’re going to find as to his thoughts about copyright. He called their exploitation of the loophole in U.S. copyright law “piracy” and added a note to the authorized Ballantine edition: “Those who approve of courtesy (at least) to living authors will purchase it, and no other.” Of course, Ace was simply reproducing his own work, wholesale, for their own profit, not offering something new as you are. Still, I daresay you would have found Tolkien more protective of his own work and less accepting of your expansions on it than you might like. Even if done in the right spirit. Best to just respect copyright until the works go into the public domain — if you can wait that long.
He is on record as absolutely detesting at least one film treatment written up during his lifetime. 
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
“On Fairy-stories” discussion 2008 – “Origins” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
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Loneanimator
Lindon
Nov 11 2008, 6:04am
Post #10 of 16
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And at the same time he expressed a wish that his Arda tales would be regarded as any mythology, inspiring people to interpret it in other media. The Ace books were meant to cash in on the growing popularity of the LOTR. No wonder Tolkien was upset. And from what I've heard the film manuscripts that were sent to him were truly horrible. The people involved in those projects obviously didn't grasp any of Tolkien's intentions.
Tolkien's books will never be released into public domain as long as I live. A Tolkien fan film may not be of any interest to a Tolkien purist, but I do hope it will be understood that it is as much a serious expression of love as any other form of recital.
"I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama."
J. R: R: Tolkien
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Nov 11 2008, 3:31pm
Post #11 of 16
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I sympathize, but you have to be careful
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Let me start by saying I hope this will not come across too contentiously. I respect and share your enthusiasm for Tolkien, absolutely. That being said, let me offer some feedback which I hope may be helpful, even if disapppointing.
The Ace books were meant to cash in on the growing popularity of the LOTR. No wonder Tolkien was upset. And from what I've heard the film manuscripts that were sent to him were truly horrible. The people involved in those projects obviously didn't grasp any of Tolkien's intentions.
That's certainly true on both counts. But ...
Tolkien's books will never be released into public domain as long as I live. A Tolkien fan film may not be of any interest to a Tolkien purist, but I do hope it will be understood that it is as much a serious expression of love as any other form of recital.
From the perspective of Tolkien's publishers, literary executors, heirs, and other parties retaining rights (e.g., Tolkien Enterprises, a.k.a. Saul Zaentz), your own effort could likewise be viewed as "meant to cash in on the growing popularity of the LOTR". You might feel very differently, of course, and I am inclined to sympathize with you, but those holding the rights will surely see it their way. You may also say that your project will make no money (because certainly, if it did, you'd have a major legal issue with these folks), but even if it makes no money, they still have every right to prevent you from doing it. They might argue that you are diluting their brand, that you are costing them money they might make through some other, related project of their own — or they may give no reason at all. And as the rights-holders, they don't have to. I do sympathize, and I applaud your desire to contribute to Tolkien's mythology, but you can't arrogate that right just because you have a passion for the material. You can argue all you want — but you don't want to argue with their lawyers, trust me.
And at the same time he expressed a wish that his Arda tales would be regarded as any mythology, inspiring people to interpret it in other media.
Well, he did and he didn't. You have to be very careful drawing conclusions from letters addressed to particular parties (not to you), and not intended by Tolkien to be seen by the public. These views are not necessarily his final word on the matter. The quotation you use as your primary justification is this:
I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama.
This is from a letter Tolkien wrote to Milton Waldman in (probably) 1951. I have seen others use it as well, for various purposes, usually all very well-intentioned, but the letter had a very specific mission: to try to convince Waldman to publish The Silmarillion with The Lord of the Rings. As such, you must bear in mind that Tolkien had a specific ulterior motive behind what he was writing. More to the point, even, you've excised your quotation from a larger paragraph which, in some ways, undermines the use to which you would put that quotation. Tolkien makes it clear he has all but abandoned this early idea for a larger, shared mythology. He starts off, "Do not laugh! But once upon a time (my crest has long since fallen)" — clearly, he has realized this isn't going to happpen. He continues with conditional phrases everywhere, "I could", "it should", "I would" — again, betokening a mission he has abandoned. And look at the very next word that follows your quotation: "Absurd." Imagine how differently your footer would read if you included that! This shows the danger in cutting a quotation out of its context.
I do not think you can take Tolkien's letter to Waldman as implying his permission to you and others to make fan-films (however good they might be). And even assuming for the sake of argument that Tolkien did intend to allow it, that still doesn't set aside the rights of his publishers, executors, and heirs to prevent it, whatever Tolkien's wishes might have been.
I know how disappointing that must be to artists like yourself. And of course, you (and others) are free to disregard this and proceed with your various fan efforts, and if you're lucky, the Tolkien Estate, Harper Collins, Saul Zaentz, et al., will let you be. But I wouldn't take the risk myself.
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
“On Fairy-stories” discussion 2008 – “Origins” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
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Loneanimator
Lindon
Nov 11 2008, 6:45pm
Post #12 of 16
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I know that any attempt at doing what I have suggested here is illegal. So is probably the many bands performing songs with motifs lifted straight from LOTR and the Silmarillion, all the people creating pottery, drawings and other art on the subject. And probably people doing fanzines as well. It's a personal choice. The fact is -and this is of course completely irrelevant in any legal situation- that some fan efforts help make up the perception of LOTR et al, for some of us. The fan efforts help make this a phenomenon. And this claim is in no way intended to dilute the sincerity and passion of the copyright holders for that very same material.
"I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama."
J. R: R: Tolkien
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Nov 11 2008, 6:55pm
Post #13 of 16
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Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
“On Fairy-stories” discussion 2008 – “Origins” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
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drspin98
Lindon
Nov 23 2008, 4:11pm
Post #14 of 16
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There are a lot of reasons people make fanfilms. I believe one of them is just a desire to be involved with anything LOTR. Like you said, you have people spending tons of time and money making costumes and the like and when do you get to show them off? I would be hard pressed to believe most people think they can "improve" on JRR or the Jackson films. We just love the stuff so much we want to be a bit more than a passive viewer.
BTW- L.A. where can I see your work (LOTR)? SUPER impressive stuff on your website!!
"Why should we believe darkness will not yield to light wielding this thing?"- The Lord of the Rings- The Age of Men
(This post was edited by drspin98 on Nov 23 2008, 4:13pm)
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mwirkk
Nargothrond
Nov 23 2008, 10:00pm
Post #15 of 16
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...if projects like Born of Hope and The Hunt for Gollum have gotten a special exemption of some kind?
I expected them to be shut down a long time ago. They've been so well publicized, I can't imagine the legals have somehow missed them. From looking at their web-sites they appear to be on track.
This is something I've been both curious about and puzzled by for awhile now.
Thx! Kiitos! Cheers!!
The Black Knight Always Triumphs!!
-mwirkk :)
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Nov 23 2008, 11:06pm
Post #16 of 16
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No exemptions. Not that I'm aware. //
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Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
The Lord of the Rings discussion 2007-2008 – The Two Towers – III.4 “Treebeard” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
“On Fairy-stories” discussion 2008 – “Origins” – Part 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
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