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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 22 2021, 4:29am
Post #2 of 25
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Owain Arthur and Beardless Dwarf-women?
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Owain Arthur does seem to have the stocky build that would fit a Dwarf.
Given the late setting of the rest of the series, I'm guessing that we'll see Durin III mainly in Bayona's two-part pilot. Though that supposes that we are not going to see some major time-compression.
I don't know if I can get behind the idea of making the lady-dwarves beardless!
#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 22 2021, 4:30am)
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Nov 22 2021, 4:33am
Post #3 of 25
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I took the dwarf women with beards as a joke
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I don't see a reason why we would expect female dwarves to have beards - ok, some of the older ones could have some chin hairs....blue.-
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Nov 22 2021, 2:59pm
Post #5 of 25
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↑ J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The War of the Jewels, "Part Two. The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Concerning the Dwarves (Chapter 13)"; a similar statement was made in The_Making_of_Appendix_A#Durin's_Folk
"Dwarves wanted their women to be protected from other races and they usually kept them concealed inside their mountain halls. They seldom traveled in the outside world, only in great need, and when they did, they were dressed as men; with similar voice and appearance as male dwarves, even when they are rarely seen they are usually mistaken for a male. All Dwarves had beards from the beginning of their lives[1]."
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 22 2021, 3:12pm
Post #6 of 25
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Tolkien did not present the idea as a joke.
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I took the dwarf women with beards as a joke
I don't see a reason why we would expect female dwarves to have beards - ok, some of the older ones could have some chin hairs....blue.-
Why would you make that assumption? In Appendix A of The Lord of the RIngs, Tolkien explicitly wrote:
It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need. They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart.
Admittedly, Tolkien does muddy the issue in a letter written around 1972-3 that is reproduced in The Nature of Middle-earth. In the letter, he notes:
* When I came to think of it, in my own imagination, beards were not found among Hobbits (as stated in text); nor among the Eldar (not stated). All male Dwarves had them. The wizards had them, though Radagast (not stated) had only short, curling, light brown hair on his chin. Men normally had them when full-grown, hence Eomer, Theoden and all others named. But not Denethor, Boromir, Faramir, Aragorn, Isildur, or other Númenórean chieftains.
Even that note does not state that Dwarf-women never had beards; it does at least indicate that not all of them were bearded. We might even argue that Dwarf-women could have donned false beards when traveling or appearing among outsiders.
#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 22 2021, 3:16pm)
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Archestratie
Nargothrond
Nov 22 2021, 5:06pm
Post #7 of 25
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But the Prof wrote explicitly that Dwarf-women were bearded just as much as the males, such that it was very difficult for outsiders to tell the two sexes apart.
The New Line films made it into a joke, but Tolkien wasn't joking, he meant it.
Yeah, if the female dwarves don't have beards, I wouldn't understand the point of trying to link the show to Peter Jackson's work the way they have. As you say, they made a joke about it, and Tolkien was explicit: dwarven women had beards. I don't think it's going to alienate people to see them portrayed in that way, especially with the costuming department they have access to.
My Low-Magic Fantasy Novel on eBook/hardback: The Huntsman and the She-Wolf
The Huntsman and the She-Wolf on audio Book.
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Eruonen
Gondolin
Nov 22 2021, 8:07pm
Post #8 of 25
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My my, make an errant opinion and expect to get roasted
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.....even after saying I was in error....which is why the boards turn off so many people.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 23 2021, 1:43am
Post #9 of 25
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My intention was certainly not to ROAST you...
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...especially as I had not seen your second post until after I replied. I did wonder, though, whether you were more familiar with the scene between Gimli, Eowen and Aragorn in LotR:TTT than the relevant passage in Appendix A.
#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations
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MerlinEngine
Nevrast
Nov 23 2021, 8:49am
Post #10 of 25
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Some participants in this thread say Tolkien was "explicit" about Dwarven women having beards. Can you point me to where this is written – explicitly? Thanks!
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Chen G.
Mithlond
Nov 23 2021, 11:57am
Post #11 of 25
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Owain Arthur.....?Durin III
Is he's either Durin IV, son of Durin III; or Durin V, son of Durin IV...
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Nov 23 2021, 2:42pm
Post #12 of 25
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As Eruonen said above, Tolkien very explicitly stated that female Dwarves had beards in the chapter Concerning the Dwarves in the later Quenta Silmarillion ($5) (though it wasn't used by Christopher in the published version of The Silmarillion.
Indeed this strangeness they have that no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf - unless he were shaven in mockery, and would then be more like of die of shame than of many other hurts that to us would seem more deadly. For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike; nor indeed can their womenkind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or in gait or in voice, nor in any wise save this: that they go not to war, and seldom save at direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 23 2021, 3:14pm
Post #13 of 25
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Is he's either Durin IV, son of Durin III; or Durin V, son of Durin IV...
I don't think any of the Durins immediately followed after any of the previous ones. The whole reincarnation deal pretty much guarantees that they are all separated by several generations (two at bare minimum, but usually more). Durin would not be able to reincarnate until after the previous incarnation has died.
#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations
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Chen G.
Mithlond
Nov 23 2021, 3:44pm
Post #14 of 25
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Sure, but its a good conceit for Amazon's purposes
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To have two Durins.
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 23 2021, 8:37pm
Post #15 of 25
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Considering the length of the Second Age (and later Ages), there's still no reason why successive Durin's shouldn't be spaced out. Durin II seems to have ruled circa Second Age 750. Durin III reigned at the time when the Rings of Power were forged (S.A. 16th century). Durin VI ruled in the Third Age (1731-1980), thousands of years later, when the Balrog of Moria was awakened. And Durin VII was born sometime during the Fourth Age (or later).
#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 23 2021, 8:47pm)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Nov 23 2021, 10:43pm
Post #17 of 25
(1678 views)
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As Eruonen said above, Tolkien very explicitly stated that female Dwarves had beards in the chapter Concerning the Dwarves in the later Quenta Silmarillion ($5) (though it wasn't used by Christopher in the published version of The Silmarillion.
Indeed this strangeness they have that no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf - unless he were shaven in mockery, and would then be more like of die of shame than of many other hurts that to us would seem more deadly. For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike; nor indeed can their womenkind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or in gait or in voice, nor in any wise save this: that they go not to war, and seldom save at direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Nov 23 2021, 10:44pm
Post #18 of 25
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My post was supposed to be in reply to MerlinEngine, not to you
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So I really posted it.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Chen G.
Mithlond
Nov 27 2021, 7:01pm
Post #19 of 25
(1517 views)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLyHd0JPWWI
We now know that Amazon has a character codenamed "Khain", who is described as "King Durin, father of Durin."
Sounds like Peter Mullan and Owain Arthur to me!
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InTheChair
Nargothrond
Nov 28 2021, 10:18am
Post #20 of 25
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The description that sticks out ot me in that video
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Is the one of Oren
Described as
Elf, tortured, corrupted, turned into warlord
Which doesn't sound very Elvish, though there is some shades of that in the Silmarillion with the Feanorians perhaps.
Otherwise there's some strong hints of a number of invented characters, which is expected.
(This post was edited by InTheChair on Nov 28 2021, 10:18am)
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 28 2021, 9:29pm
Post #21 of 25
(1396 views)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLyHd0JPWWI
We now know that Amazon has a character codenamed "Khain", who is described as "King Durin, father of Durin."
Sounds like Peter Mullan and Owain Arthur to me!
That seems problematic to me (for the reasons that I've already given), but maybe I'm overthinking it.
#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 28 2021, 9:31pm)
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Chen G.
Mithlond
Nov 29 2021, 6:49pm
Post #22 of 25
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Oh, I think it has the potential to be incredibly hokey
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But I'll wait and see.
I'm honestly happy for any ploy that results in (1) us seeing Durin and (2) him being Peter Mullan. If he is indeed the older Durin, then they've nailed the casting there.
(This post was edited by Chen G. on Nov 29 2021, 6:50pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Elvenhome
Nov 29 2021, 8:17pm
Post #23 of 25
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Durin III was the Lord of Khazad-dûm at the time of the crafting of the Great Rings (S.A. 1500-1590).
Durn VI ruled Khazad-dum when the Balrog of Moria was awakened (T.A. 1980).
It seems that the Dwarf-lords being meant here would presumably be Durin IV and Durin V. I don't see, though, how they would be father and son while both supposedly being reincarnations of Durin the Deathless.
#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Nov 30 2021, 12:28am
Post #24 of 25
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1) We have no idea how closely the Amazon show-runners will really follow Tolkien's lore.
2) We have no idea how true what is being reported is.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
The Hall of Fire
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Chen G.
Mithlond
Nov 30 2021, 7:59am
Post #25 of 25
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I mean, those would seem to be leaked documents from the show
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and they do mostly line-up with things that had been reported multiple times, so...
Remember, I was the one who originally thought this was set in the Forging era! When these documents were first brought to my attention (about a day or two after they first cropped-up on Reddit) I did look into the possibility that they are fake, but cross-referencing things, my conclusion is that they are legit.
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= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
