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EXCLUSIVE: DWARVEN Rumours + Durin Actor Revealed For Amazon's #LOTRonPrime| TSAS #18

Eruonen
Valinor


Nov 22 2021, 2:15am

Post #1 of 25 (1159 views)
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EXCLUSIVE: DWARVEN Rumours + Durin Actor Revealed For Amazon's #LOTRonPrime| TSAS #18 Can't Post

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIFTK1jQiV0

Owain Arthur.....?Durin III


(This post was edited by Eruonen on Nov 22 2021, 2:19am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 22 2021, 4:29am

Post #2 of 25 (1112 views)
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Owain Arthur and Beardless Dwarf-women? [In reply to] Can't Post

Owain Arthur does seem to have the stocky build that would fit a Dwarf.


Given the late setting of the rest of the series, I'm guessing that we'll see Durin III mainly in Bayona's two-part pilot. Though that supposes that we are not going to see some major time-compression.

I don't know if I can get behind the idea of making the lady-dwarves beardless!

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 22 2021, 4:30am)


Eruonen
Valinor


Nov 22 2021, 4:33am

Post #3 of 25 (1110 views)
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I took the dwarf women with beards as a joke [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't see a reason why we would expect female dwarves to have beards - ok, some of the older ones could have some chin hairs....blue.-


squire
Half-elven


Nov 22 2021, 1:09pm

Post #4 of 25 (1062 views)
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Tolkien's word may not be of any importance here [In reply to] Can't Post

But the Prof wrote explicitly that Dwarf-women were bearded just as much as the males, such that it was very difficult for outsiders to tell the two sexes apart.

The New Line films made it into a joke, but Tolkien wasn't joking, he meant it.



squire online:
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Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
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Eruonen
Valinor


Nov 22 2021, 2:59pm

Post #5 of 25 (1051 views)
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Yep, you are correct [In reply to] Can't Post

↑ J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The War of the Jewels, "Part Two. The Later Quenta Silmarillion: Concerning the Dwarves (Chapter 13)"; a similar statement was made in The_Making_of_Appendix_A#Durin's_Folk

"Dwarves wanted their women to be protected from other races and they usually kept them concealed inside their mountain halls. They seldom traveled in the outside world, only in great need, and when they did, they were dressed as men; with similar voice and appearance as male dwarves, even when they are rarely seen they are usually mistaken for a male. All Dwarves had beards from the beginning of their lives[1]."


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 22 2021, 3:12pm

Post #6 of 25 (1045 views)
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Tolkien did not present the idea as a joke. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I took the dwarf women with beards as a joke
I don't see a reason why we would expect female dwarves to have beards - ok, some of the older ones could have some chin hairs....blue.-


Why would you make that assumption? In Appendix A of The Lord of the RIngs, Tolkien explicitly wrote:

Quote
It was said by Gimli that there are few dwarf-women, probably no more than a third of the whole people. They seldom walk abroad except at great need. They are in voice and appearance, and in garb if they must go on a journey, so like to the dwarf-men that the eyes and ears of other peoples cannot tell them apart.


Admittedly, Tolkien does muddy the issue in a letter written around 1972-3 that is reproduced in The Nature of Middle-earth. In the letter, he notes:

Quote
* When I came to think of it, in my own imagination, beards were not found among Hobbits (as stated in text); nor among the Eldar (not stated). All male Dwarves had them. The wizards had them, though Radagast (not stated) had only short, curling, light brown hair on his chin. Men normally had them when full-grown, hence Eomer, Theoden and all others named. But not Denethor, Boromir, Faramir, Aragorn, Isildur, or other N˙menˇrean chieftains.


Even that note does not state that Dwarf-women never had beards; it does at least indicate that not all of them were bearded. We might even argue that Dwarf-women could have donned false beards when traveling or appearing among outsiders.

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 22 2021, 3:16pm)


Archestratie
Lorien


Nov 22 2021, 5:06pm

Post #7 of 25 (1029 views)
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Yeah [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
But the Prof wrote explicitly that Dwarf-women were bearded just as much as the males, such that it was very difficult for outsiders to tell the two sexes apart.

The New Line films made it into a joke, but Tolkien wasn't joking, he meant it.


Yeah, if the female dwarves don't have beards, I wouldn't understand the point of trying to link the show to Peter Jackson's work the way they have. As you say, they made a joke about it, and Tolkien was explicit: dwarven women had beards. I don't think it's going to alienate people to see them portrayed in that way, especially with the costuming department they have access to.

My Low-Magic Fantasy Novel on eBook/hardback: The Huntsman and the She-Wolf

The Huntsman and the She-Wolf on audio Book.


Eruonen
Valinor


Nov 22 2021, 8:07pm

Post #8 of 25 (997 views)
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My my, make an errant opinion and expect to get roasted [In reply to] Can't Post

.....even after saying I was in error....which is why the boards turn off so many people.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 23 2021, 1:43am

Post #9 of 25 (972 views)
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My intention was certainly not to ROAST you... [In reply to] Can't Post

...especially as I had not seen your second post until after I replied. I did wonder, though, whether you were more familiar with the scene between Gimli, Eowen and Aragorn in LotR:TTT than the relevant passage in Appendix A.

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations


MerlinEngine
The Shire


Nov 23 2021, 8:49am

Post #10 of 25 (938 views)
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Can you provide a quote? [In reply to] Can't Post

Some participants in this thread say Tolkien was "explicit" about Dwarven women having beards. Can you point me to where this is written ľ explicitly? Thanks!


Chen G.
Gondor

Nov 23 2021, 11:57am

Post #11 of 25 (914 views)
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My guess [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Owain Arthur.....?Durin III


Is he's either Durin IV, son of Durin III; or Durin V, son of Durin IV...


VoronwŰ_the_Faithful
Valinor

Nov 23 2021, 2:42pm

Post #12 of 25 (887 views)
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Here you go [In reply to] Can't Post

As Eruonen said above, Tolkien very explicitly stated that female Dwarves had beards in the chapter Concerning the Dwarves in the later Quenta Silmarillion ($5) (though it wasn't used by Christopher in the published version of The Silmarillion.


Quote
Indeed this strangeness they have that no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf - unless he were shaven in mockery, and would then be more like of die of shame than of many other hurts that to us would seem more deadly. For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike; nor indeed can their womenkind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or in gait or in voice, nor in any wise save this: that they go not to war, and seldom save at direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls.


'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 23 2021, 3:14pm

Post #13 of 25 (880 views)
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Son of...? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Is he's either Durin IV, son of Durin III; or Durin V, son of Durin IV...


I don't think any of the Durins immediately followed after any of the previous ones. The whole reincarnation deal pretty much guarantees that they are all separated by several generations (two at bare minimum, but usually more). Durin would not be able to reincarnate until after the previous incarnation has died.

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations


Chen G.
Gondor

Nov 23 2021, 3:44pm

Post #14 of 25 (874 views)
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Sure, but its a good conceit for Amazon's purposes [In reply to] Can't Post

To have two Durins.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 23 2021, 8:37pm

Post #15 of 25 (844 views)
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Perhaps [In reply to] Can't Post

Considering the length of the Second Age (and later Ages), there's still no reason why successive Durin's shouldn't be spaced out. Durin II seems to have ruled circa Second Age 750. Durin III reigned at the time when the Rings of Power were forged (S.A. 16th century). Durin VI ruled in the Third Age (1731-1980), thousands of years later, when the Balrog of Moria was awakened. And Durin VII was born sometime during the Fourth Age (or later).

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 23 2021, 8:47pm)


squire
Half-elven


Nov 23 2021, 10:26pm

Post #16 of 25 (836 views)
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I wonder [In reply to] Can't Post

If there is any line regarding fidelity to Tolkien's creation that Amazon has decided it will not cross -- even if crossing it would be a good, a really good, or perhaps even an excellent conceit for their purposes?



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Archive: All the TORn Reading Room Book Discussions (including the 1st BotR Discussion!) and Footerama: "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
Dr. Squire introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


VoronwŰ_the_Faithful
Valinor

Nov 23 2021, 10:43pm

Post #17 of 25 (830 views)
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Here you go [In reply to] Can't Post

As Eruonen said above, Tolkien very explicitly stated that female Dwarves had beards in the chapter Concerning the Dwarves in the later Quenta Silmarillion ($5) (though it wasn't used by Christopher in the published version of The Silmarillion.


Quote
Indeed this strangeness they have that no Man nor Elf has ever seen a beardless Dwarf - unless he were shaven in mockery, and would then be more like of die of shame than of many other hurts that to us would seem more deadly. For the Naugrim have beards from the beginning of their lives, male and female alike; nor indeed can their womenkind be discerned by those of other race, be it in feature or in gait or in voice, nor in any wise save this: that they go not to war, and seldom save at direst need issue from their deep bowers and halls.


'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


VoronwŰ_the_Faithful
Valinor

Nov 23 2021, 10:44pm

Post #18 of 25 (826 views)
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My post was supposed to be in reply to MerlinEngine, not to you [In reply to] Can't Post

So I really posted it.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Chen G.
Gondor

Nov 27 2021, 7:01pm

Post #19 of 25 (669 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLyHd0JPWWI

We now know that Amazon has a character codenamed "Khain", who is described as "King Durin, father of Durin."

Sounds like Peter Mullan and Owain Arthur to me!


InTheChair
Rohan

Nov 28 2021, 10:18am

Post #20 of 25 (604 views)
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The description that sticks out ot me in that video [In reply to] Can't Post

Is the one of Oren

Described as
Elf, tortured, corrupted, turned into warlord

Which doesn't sound very Elvish, though there is some shades of that in the Silmarillion with the Feanorians perhaps.

Otherwise there's some strong hints of a number of invented characters, which is expected.


(This post was edited by InTheChair on Nov 28 2021, 10:18am)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 28 2021, 9:29pm

Post #21 of 25 (548 views)
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Yeah, I saw that. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLyHd0JPWWI

We now know that Amazon has a character codenamed "Khain", who is described as "King Durin, father of Durin."

Sounds like Peter Mullan and Owain Arthur to me!


That seems problematic to me (for the reasons that I've already given), but maybe I'm overthinking it.

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Nov 28 2021, 9:31pm)


Chen G.
Gondor

Nov 29 2021, 6:49pm

Post #22 of 25 (478 views)
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Oh, I think it has the potential to be incredibly hokey [In reply to] Can't Post

But I'll wait and see.

I'm honestly happy for any ploy that results in (1) us seeing Durin and (2) him being Peter Mullan. If he is indeed the older Durin, then they've nailed the casting there.


(This post was edited by Chen G. on Nov 29 2021, 6:50pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Nov 29 2021, 8:17pm

Post #23 of 25 (466 views)
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Durins [In reply to] Can't Post

Durin III was the Lord of Khazad-dűm at the time of the crafting of the Great Rings (S.A. 1500-1590).

Durn VI ruled Khazad-dum when the Balrog of Moria was awakened (T.A. 1980).

It seems that the Dwarf-lords being meant here would presumably be Durin IV and Durin V. I don't see, though, how they would be father and son while both supposedly being reincarnations of Durin the Deathless.

#FidelityToTolkien
#ChallengeExpectations


VoronwŰ_the_Faithful
Valinor

Nov 30 2021, 12:28am

Post #24 of 25 (450 views)
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Things we have no idea of [In reply to] Can't Post

1) We have no idea how closely the Amazon show-runners will really follow Tolkien's lore.

2) We have no idea how true what is being reported is.

'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'

The Hall of Fire


Chen G.
Gondor

Nov 30 2021, 7:59am

Post #25 of 25 (429 views)
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I mean, those would seem to be leaked documents from the show [In reply to] Can't Post

and they do mostly line-up with things that had been reported multiple times, so...

Remember, I was the one who originally thought this was set in the Forging era! When these documents were first brought to my attention (about a day or two after they first cropped-up on Reddit) I did look into the possibility that they are fake, but cross-referencing things, my conclusion is that they are legit.

 
 

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