|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
cats16
Gondolin
Sep 27 2015, 11:14pm
Post #1 of 79
(7325 views)
Shortcut
|
|
*LotR Discussion: 'The Two Towers'- Ch. III, Book III: "The Uruk-hai"
|
Can't Post
|
|
Greetings, dear Fellowship of the Room!
All are welcome to jump right into this discussion of Chapter Three (“The Uruk-hai”), Book III of The Lord of the Rings.
I deeply regret not being around to actively participate in our first two weeks of discussion. Redemption (yes, I saw that discussion re: Boromir) is at hand!
Please note that I have made separate posts to kick off this discussion, with certain talking points/themes listed in each post title.
Here are my post titles, in listed order:
1. Narrative Voice and Plot
2. Pippin the Hero
3. Orcses and Whiteskins
(As you’ll notice, each successive post contains fewer summaries of plot events—I’m busy reading roughly 7 other books for school at the moment, and sadly don’t have the time to introduce each and every moment of the story.)
Of course, please feel free to bend all conversations as you wish and introduce any aspects of the text I neglect to mention (countless, I’m sure!).
I look forward to all ensuing discussion!
*Additional note: In case you were not aware, our dearest TORnsib Brethil is coping with an immensely sad loss in her private life (see here). Please keep her in your thoughts. As always, you are very welcome to use this space to work through any grief you may be struggling with in RL.* 
Cats
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
|
|
|
cats16
Gondolin
Sep 27 2015, 11:15pm
Post #2 of 79
(7172 views)
Shortcut
|
Schematically, Tolkien constructs this chapter primarily around Pippin, his Orc captors, and the elusive yet pursuant Riders of Rohan.
Any thoughts on Pippin as the “protagonist” of this chapter? Why not Merry, instead? How does Tolkien’s writing style adapt to reflect Pippin’s experience?
Despite the chapter’s title, the action begins within Pippin’s mind in the form of a dream:
“Pippin lay in a dark and troubled dream: it seemed that he could hear his own small voice echoing in black tunnels, calling Frodo, Frodo! But instead of Frodo hundreds of hideous orc-faces grinned at him out of the shadows, hundreds of hideous arms grasped at him from every side. Where was Merry?” (TTT: Houghton Mifflin 2nd ed. pg. 435)
What do you make of Tolkien’s choice to begin this chapter with a dream? What function(s) might it serve in relation to the previous chapter?
Tolkien places Pippin’s (and eventually Merry’s, as well) perception of his captivity as the focal point of this chapter. Following his dream, Pippin overhears Orcs speaking the Common Tongue and pieces together several important facts regarding his situation:
- The Uruk-hai—Uglúk in charge—are under strict orders to keep them alive, relatively unharmed, and cannot search them.
- Northern/Mordor Orcs disagree with this policy and are at odds with the Uruks, tensions rising moment-to-moment.
- The Nazgul do not currently pose a threat to them: they remain forbidden to cross the Anduin.
What conclusions can be drawn from this information? Are there other nuggets of truth to be gleaned from the Orcs’ conversations?
What do you make of Pippin’s method of interacting with his captors during their journey?
After much toil along the road, the Riders close in on the remaining Orcs. As their captors become distracted in battle, Merry and Pippin sneakily tease Grishnákh into thinking they possess the Ring.
What do you make of this scene—what implications does it have, either for the characters or the overall plot?
The chapter slowly removes itself from Pippin’s point of view, and concludes with a more omniscient perspective on their movements and the ensuing battle between the Riders and Orcs.
For example, Tolkien pulls back (think of a wide establishing shot in film), with a quote I find very unique, and more akin in style to that of The Silmarillion:
“Out of the shadows the hobbits peeped, gazing back down the slope: little furtive figures that in the dim light looked like elf-children in the deeps of time peering out of the Wild Wood in wonder at their first Dawn.” (TTT: Houghton Mifflin 2nd ed. pg. 449)
Tolkien ends the chapter by telling the reader what Merry and Pippin were unable to witness after they entered Fangorn Forest: Eómer defeated Uglúk in combat, remaining Orcs were slaughtered and the Riders piled their bodies and burned them in celebration of their victory.
Any thoughts on this final shift in narrative voice? How does the chapter as a whole stand when considering Tolkien’s framing of it (beginning with Pippin’s dream, ending outside of Pippin’s consciousness)?
Anything more to be said of plot events that occur in this chapter?
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
|
|
|
cats16
Gondolin
Sep 27 2015, 11:16pm
Post #3 of 79
(7169 views)
Shortcut
|
As I hadn’t picked up the books in several months, I found Pippin’s sudden heroism and leadership a welcoming presence.
How do you see Pippin’s character arc growing, either in his development solely within this chapter, or from page 1 until now?
For our HoME readers: what insights do JRRT/CT provide that might enlighten us in regards to this chapter’s centering around the hobbits (Pippin in particular)?
Conversely, how would the chapter differ if Merry had been the protagonist? Any thoughts on his role as Tolkien wrote it?
Any other lingering Pippin-related thoughts?
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
|
|
|
cats16
Gondolin
Sep 27 2015, 11:17pm
Post #4 of 79
(7176 views)
Shortcut
|
With Pippin’s perspective as our optic lens, we receive our first real insight into Orcish behavior and interpersonal relationships, as well as their varied perceptions of the greater geopolitical situation in Middle-earth.
What are your thoughts on the Orcs (culturally, interpersonally, etc.) as presented here? On the Uruks? The Northerners? The Mordor Orcs? What can be said of their different perspectives on their mission and of their supreme commanders (Saruman and Sauron, respectively)?
At times, the dynamic between the Orcs and Men feels reminiscent to that of stories written about Native Americans and white settlers in the American frontier.
What other literary/historical comparisons might be drawn between these dynamics and their portrayals in this chapter? What material might have directly influenced Tolkien to construct this scenario of hunter-hunted in such a manner?
While we are never given the perspective of the Riders, their intent remains quite clear and unmistakable.
For our military nuts: what stands out to you in regards to the Rohirrim’s tactics in this chapter? Why do the Uruks act the way they do—i.e. not enter the forest? Anything more to be said here?
---------
Okay, that's all from me! Happy discussing, and I'll check in when I can to respond the myriad of fantastic replies to come! 
Cats
Join us every weekend in the Hobbit movie forum for this week's CHOW (Chapter of the Week) discussion!
|
|
|
noWizardme
Gondolin
Sep 28 2015, 9:02am
Post #5 of 79
(7122 views)
Shortcut
|
Pippin is a strange mixture of competent and silly. He was helpful navigating the hobbits across the Shire, but while Frodo is debating how to escape the mysterious Riders, Pippin can run around singing on the grass and propose a long stop in an Inn. He's been the Character Most Likely To Annoy Gandalf a few times, with his tactless questions outside the Doors of Moria and then his compulsion to drop that stone. Since then he seems to have been content to tag along quietly with the others. I don't recall the book having taken his point of view, or him doing much of note since Moria.
But now, at long last, cut off from the others and with Merry injured, he shows his quality: This Took Forever!
(image caption: woven labels saying "This Took Forever" - I think they're intended to be sewn into craft projects really, but they do seem appropriate for this post http://boingboing.net/...is-took-forever.html )
Something I only just realised about Pippin which I think helps explain his character: he's the Hobbit equivalent of a teenager (from his comments to Bergil in Minas Tirith). Some teenagers do show unpredictable surges and plunges in common sense and capability (I still remember that in myself, with an occasional wince). I read Pippin as being like that ("re-roll for Wisdom and Initiative and foresight on each turn"). And of course, there's the challenge all the hobbits have of adapting to a much harsher world than their broadly safe and comfortable Shire.
So the lad's doing well!
~~~~~~
Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
|
|
|
noWizardme
Gondolin
Sep 28 2015, 9:32am
Post #6 of 79
(7114 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Do the orcs remind anyone else of pirates?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
This is, I think the first time we really see orcs novellized in a mature way: Tolkien had already written Thorin's attempt at negotiating with the Goblin King in The Hobbit, but there the goblins are still fairly like those of George MacDonald (The Princess and the Goblin). And Tolkien had already written Silmarillon material, in which (I think) the orcs are really undifferentiated evil goons, like Imperial Stormtroopers or other fantasy franchise fodder for the heroes' swords. This is different. Here we see them as kinda human.
They remind me of pirates: I'm thinking of pirates as fictionalized, for example in Treasure Island: crude, violent, feckless people and most of them none too intelligent. But the fecklessness can be overcome if a strong leader (Long John Silver or Ugluk) can provide some...well..feck (if that is a word implied by 'feckless' ). But orc or pirate leadership will have to involve a fair amount of "rum and the lash" - leaders don't often try to appeal to abstract or distant goals.
As in Treasure Island, moral ambiguity begins to get in: we can't see orcs as mindless killing machines after this. Or I can't - I conceive a sneaking admiration for Ugluk, evil though he is, as he tries to hold together an uneasy alliance of 3 factions, while loyally delivering his captives to Saruman as ordered..
If the orcs have some roots in pirates, maybe (as you suggest) the Rohirrim have some roots in what Tolkien's time would have called "Cowboys and Indians"? The point at which Eomer and his warband gallop up and encircle Aragorn et al last chapter could have come straight out of a 'Western' I think.
~~~~~~
Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
|
|
|
dormouse
Gondolin
Sep 28 2015, 1:03pm
Post #7 of 79
(7108 views)
Shortcut
|
.. takes us out of time, I think. We need to go back in time to find out what happened; this is the first of two steps back - a quick flash of the experience of being an orc prisoner through Pippin's eyes. Then the second step back is Pippin waking up and remembering back to the first moment of capture. Disorientating and then reorientating, if that makes sense..
And I think it's Pippin and not Merry because Merry is the more capable of the two. With Merry out of action Pippin has to start taking the initiative for himself.
And that sentence, 'Out of the shadows the hobbits peeped.....' takes me back across forty+ years to when I first read this and there was no Silmarillion, just these wonderful, tantalising images of a mysterious history stretching back across a vast, misty distance. It jumped off the page for me then and it still does.
|
|
|
dormouse
Gondolin
Sep 28 2015, 1:11pm
Post #8 of 79
(7108 views)
Shortcut
|
|
One thought about the orcs....
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The pursuit is catching up, the orcs start arguing and Ugluk tells the Northerners to run for the Forest - 'Let the fighting Uruk-hai do the work, as usual. . .' and so on. Is it just me, or is this a curious inverted image of Aragorn giving men leave to go on the march to he Morannon? With Aragorn it's compassion - he can see that some can't cope with the fear and offers them a role they can handle - with Ugluk it's contempt - but the action is quite similar.
|
|
|
enanito
Nargothrond
Sep 28 2015, 3:56pm
Post #9 of 79
(7087 views)
Shortcut
|
Strategic reason for Nazgul to not cross Anduin? Or any reason?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The Nazgul do not currently pose a threat to them: they remain forbidden to cross the Anduin. I've often wondered about the reasoning behind Sauron's keeping the Nazgul on the east of the Great River for so long. Granted it has a nice dramatic effect on the narrative as well as simplifying the plotlines, but strategically it just seems like I'd want to unleash the hounds to do as much destruction as possible, as early and often as possible (especially since no man could kill the Witch King...)
So in this chapter we're told a Nazgul awaits on the east side of the River, however he is forbidden to cross as of yet. If he's just waiting around, why not send him across and have him sweep the land as well? I don't know of any "wards" or other effects that would trigger undesirable outcomes (from Sauron's pov) if they crossed the River. Sauron does have other cannon fodder he can expend without directly involving "the apples of his eyes", but again, why not also use them now? Is the fear of them greater than the actual effect using them would have?
it may just be authorial discretion, but I've learned with Tolkien that sometimes what I might think is "fridge logic" actually has really cool explanations underpinning what I assumed was just a story hole.
|
|
|
noWizardme
Gondolin
Sep 28 2015, 4:05pm
Post #10 of 79
(7077 views)
Shortcut
|
|
....was little worse than the waking.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I think the dream, and Pippin coming to, work really well as a flashback. And this dream differs from Frodo's in FOTR. There, some event (Merry banging on the door, Strider opening the shutters) brings Frodo back to a reasonably normal reality: but here "the dream was little worse than the waking".
~~~~~~
Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
|
|
|
noWizardme
Gondolin
Sep 28 2015, 5:36pm
Post #12 of 79
(7070 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Now I'm looking at my fridge and wondering about that too...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Why not allow the Nazgul West of the river yet? My best guess is that Sauron knows that sending the Nazgul into territory Saruman regards as his would cause a rupture between them: one that isn't convenient for Sauron quite yet.
That's completely made up on my part, by the way, as an inference from my reading of the story: it's not backed up by any Tolkien Studies material that I know of.
It's not completely satisfactory though, because you start to wonder where Sauron thinks the Ring is and how much of a priority it still is for him to get it quickly. If Sauron thinks the Ring is still heading South with halflings, and still wants to get it, why doesn't he apply the same logic that he did in FOTR: only the Nazgul can be trusted to find the Ring and bring it back to him? That in turn makes me wonder what Sauron proposes to do if Saruman should get the Ring - would that be a real crisis, or does Sauron reckon there'd be time to defeat Saruman before he learned how to use the Ring's power fully?
Oh- a further thought if I still have time within the "edit window": I think the Nazgul are the slaves of whoever has mastered the Ring. So if Saruman did get it, they might quickly go over to him. Are they being deployed with caution for that reason, perhaps?
~~~~~~
Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Sep 28 2015, 5:50pm)
|
|
|
dormouse
Gondolin
Sep 28 2015, 6:04pm
Post #13 of 79
(7058 views)
Shortcut
|
Seriously, there would probably be a simple fastening of some kind - like a cord tie - as well. A cloak that relied on a fastening that could eaily be mislaid would be a bit useless.
I know the leaves of Lorien don't fall idly but I doubt they're proof against the wearer laying one aside when he takes it off or using the pin to prick a hole in something and then forgetting.....
(This post was edited by dormouse on Sep 28 2015, 6:04pm)
|
|
|
noWizardme
Gondolin
Sep 28 2015, 6:17pm
Post #14 of 79
(7053 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I expect so- some additional fastening
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Let's hope that the clothes of Lorien aren't like the ropes of Lorien (come off when someone says "Galadriel"). I can imagine that causing problems
Celeborn's favourite prank, though....
~~~~~~
Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
|
|
|
Meneldor
Doriath
Sep 28 2015, 7:29pm
Post #15 of 79
(7039 views)
Shortcut
|
Thanks, NoWiMe, now I have a new favorite word. 
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
|
|
|
enanito
Nargothrond
Sep 28 2015, 7:34pm
Post #17 of 79
(7043 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Context for Boromir's horn-blowing
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Anything more to be said of plot events that occur in this chapter? Pre-movies, I never really remarked on the background given here for Boromir's horn-blowing. Then FOTR came along and I remember thinking each time I watched it: "Way to go Boromir, blow your horn so even more orcs know where to find you!".
But reading TTT afterwards, Boromir's actions make a lot of (heroic) sense. He blasts into action to rescue Pippen and Merry, attacking the group of orcs and dozens of goblins, slaying many. It's only after the 100+ orcs return and he is pressed back into action, that he resorts to the horn -- which actually does have an impressive (albeit temporary) effect at keeping the orcs at bay.
I imagine this passage stuck out to many when they first read this chapter, unlike me to whom it only gained significance much later on.
|
|
|
Mikah
Menegroth
Sep 28 2015, 11:39pm
Post #18 of 79
(7012 views)
Shortcut
|
I gotta tell you though, Ugluk reminds me of a Marine Infantry Sgt. I believe the Marine Infantry call themselves grunts. They take pride in doing the dirty work of the Armed Forces. All of Ugluk's talk of doing the dirty work completely reminds me of that! He comments "in the meantime the Uruk-hai of Isengard can do the dirty work, as usual." He reminds me of a grumpy grunt Sgt! I have to tell you though, I am rather embarrassed to say, this is probably the completely wrong forum for it, but I rather like Ugluk and I find him to be one of the most colorful characters. There! I said it, I liked Ugluk and was sad to see him go. I have a grudging respect for those foul beasts the Uruk-Hai.
|
|
|
oliphaunt
Menegroth
Sep 28 2015, 11:40pm
Post #19 of 79
(7013 views)
Shortcut
|
Any thoughts on Pippin as the “protagonist” of this chapter? Why not Merry, instead? How does Tolkien’s writing style adapt to reflect Pippin’s experience?
So far Pippin has been comical, but eventually he needs to turn into a resourceful hero. This is where we begin to see his potential. Merry is already credible, he doesn't need the development.
What do you make of Tolkien’s choice to begin this chapter with a dream? What function(s) might it serve in relation to the previous chapter?
Well since I always wake up from bad dreams with relief, I shudder to think how it would be to go from bad dream to terrifying reality. I'm amazed at Pippins composure in this dreadful situation. Hobbits!
What conclusions can be drawn from this information? Are there other nuggets of truth to be gleaned from the Orcs’ conversations?
We find out that Saruman is playing a dangerous game with Sauron.
What do you make of this scene—what implications does it have, either for the characters or the overall plot?
I think that M&P are "meant" to escape and that's why their crazy gamble paid off .
“Out of the shadows the hobbits peeped...
This is very different from most LOTR narrative. It's where the veil to the ancient Middle Earth is thin. It makes me very curious about the elves, but sort of conflates them with Hobbits.
|
|
|
Mikah
Menegroth
Sep 29 2015, 12:12am
Post #20 of 79
(7011 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I seriously love this chapter and you did a great job Cats.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
My thoughts on the Orcses and Uruk-Hai. The first thing that really strikes me about them, is that their Captain is intent upon carrying out the orders commanded. I initially thought this would be from fear; fear of their masters. But then came across this sentence "Then you'll fly off with our prisoners , and get all of the pay and praise in Lugburz." I did a bit of a double take here. What kind of pay I wonder?? Even more shocking for me, is that Orcs or Uruk-Hai are at all interested in praise. I don't know why this surprised me so much, but it really did. I can not help but wonder if there is an ounce of humanity left in them. Are they so far corrupted that there could never be any redemption...for any of them? Probably. But this spark of dignity in them, this value of praise, or wanting to please, is rather astonishing to me. Ugluk also seems to take a bit of pride in serving Saruman. I wonder why this is. Ugluk does mention Saruman giving them man flesh, but wouldn't Sauron do the same?
The analytical thinking skills of the Orcs and Uruk-Hai leaves me a bit taken aback as well. My initial thoughts of them are of strength and brute. I guess I tend to forget from whence they came. I picture them in my mind as mindlessly doing as they are told, as a thrall would. To think of Grishnakh desiring the ring for himself was also a bit astonishing. I wonder if either Saruman or Sauron are concerned of this?
Anyhoo, these are my initial pondering and ramblings of the Orcs and the Uruk-Hai. I suppose I tend to feel more sympathy toward them than most.
|
|
|
Mikah
Menegroth
Sep 29 2015, 12:17am
Post #22 of 79
(6999 views)
Shortcut
|
Do you remember at the very beginning of the chapter Pippin had been thinking? His thoughts revolved around feeling like a nuisance and a piece of luggage. Kind of being in the way. I believe that it is probably these initial thoughts which turn Pippin's attitude. In a way, I believe that he is trying to make up for some of the fuss he caused. Whether or not he is doing in consciously I do not know. But I believe that in those few sentences lies Pippin's motivation.
|
|
|
Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Sep 29 2015, 12:22am
Post #23 of 79
(6998 views)
Shortcut
|
|
It might have been more personnal than stragetic
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
As the Nazgul had just suffered a rather painful defeat at Rivendell, they might have been a bit cautious about crossing into enemy territory. Possibly the last thing Sauron needs at this point is the Nazgul been slain again. So going into Rohan might be done with a bit of caution. Especially as some can launch arrows that can slay their steads! Also, it is quite a big thing for them to cross the Anduin. Especially for a single one. Maybe he was feeling particularly nervous. As much as undead Nazgul's have feelings of course!
|
|
|
Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Sep 29 2015, 12:27am
Post #24 of 79
(7000 views)
Shortcut
|
It was him that cut free his ropes so that he and Merry could both get away. Which was to be needed in the later story. As Merry said, he had to brush up his toes to catch up with his cousin. I suppose another thing is that those that had read the Hobbit might have a connection with Tooks, so maybe it is only natural that it is the Took whose viewpoint we read, even a rather wimpy one.
|
|
|
|
|
Fecking pirates!
[
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
1
