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MirielCelebel
Ossiriand
Sep 14 2015, 7:22pm
Post #1 of 82
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Two Towers Read Through- Chapter One
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First of all, my DEEPEST apologies for the lateness of the post. I completely forgot to post what had typed up several weeks ago! I do humbly ask your forgiveness.
Chapter One- The Departure of Boromir
“The Departure of Boromir” may be one of the most important chapters in the entire trilogy. There it is. I said it. The first discussion of The Two Towers and I’ve already made the claim that my chapter is the most important. Seriously though, this chapter has a lot of vital information in it despite it being relatively short in length. Let’s explore a few main reasons for why this segment of the narrative is so crucial.
Reason 1- A main character dies. Not only a main character but a member of the Fellowship. Tolkien tells his readers up front that Boromir parts from the Fellowship in the title of the chapter but he leaves it vague; Boromir could simply be heading to Gondor. But we veteran readers know better. Boromir departs in death and it is not just that he dies but how he dies that is most significant. He dies in defense of two helpless hobbits. But it is not just that he dies in defense of the hobbits that is important; it is that he dies in defense of Merry and Pippin after attacking Frodo for the Ring. This leads us to our next reason…
Reason 2- The redemption story. It’s true that Tolkien refused to use any modern or even spin-off of modern religious terminology in his story. Tolkien always felt that England lacked its own mythology and that what closest compared to an English mythology, the Arthurian saga, was grossly overloaded with religious messages and themes, something he did not want to repeat in his own legendarium. Therefore, the terms “redemption” and “salvation” are not used but are very much implied in The Lord of the Rings and no stronger than in the story of Boromir. Very early on in the Council of Elrond we learn that Boromir is a strong and independent leader. We also learn very on that the Ring is his weakness. But here, at the very end of his life, he comes to know his faults and believes his death is a punishment for them. His conversation with Aragorn is incredibly short, but powerful. His first words upon seeing Aragorn are in fact a confession, “I tried to take the Ring from Frodo” (p. 4- I’m using the small Ballantine mass market version, in case you’re interested). When he tells Aragorn that he failed, of course he means that he failed to protect the hobbits and technically that is true. But Aragorn’s poignant response, “You have conquered. Few have gained such a victory,” is extremely remarkable. Boromir’s physical nature failed, yes, because he perished, but his spiritual nature reigned victorious. He confessed his error, repented, and was forgiven by someone he deemed his superior and his king. We would be foolish not to see traces of Tolkien’s Catholic upbringing in this scene and to recognize that this is an important moment for both characters involved.
Reason 3- Placement. It is peculiar to me that Tolkien chose to place this scene at the beginning of his second book and make it his opening sequence, whereas Peter Jackson chose to place it at the end of his first movie. I think it says a lot that Tolkien chose to open his second book with this scene because it sets the stage for the rest of the story. This is the Breaking of the Fellowship, the turning point for Aragorn (to be discussed in Reason 4), and the character of Boromir is fresh in the readers minds for when they are introduced to Faramir at the beginning of the second half of the book.
Reason 4- Aragorn’s humanity. Many writers have discussed the importance of Aragorn and the choices he makes throughout the story. One particular author, Matthew Dickerson, in his book A Hobbit Journey, talks about the Doom of Choice and that is a very accurate description. Aragorn is a representative of free will and the liberty of freedom; but of course all freedom comes at a price. There is a paragraph where he speaks to himself and we can almost hear the pain in his voice as he weeps for Boromir and the burden he carries of not letting the Quest fail. This is the state in which Legolas and Gimli find him. In her essay “Frodo and Aragorn: The Concept of the Hero”, Verlyn Flieger paints the picture of Aragorn as the almost god-like hero and Frodo the more relatable every day hero and her assessment is not wrong. Tolkien certainly made a point to separate the two.
Q&A
There are a few main questions that I would ask in order to get the discussions flowing. This does not mean that you cannot discuss about what I’ve already stated. Everything above is my own person opinion and may not reflect your own. Just in case you agree with everything I’ve said and would like to talk about something else, let’s go with these inquiries: -
How did this chapter affect you reading it the first time? Does it affect you differently when you reread it? -
How significant a role does Aragorn play in this scene and what do you think it does for his character? -
What specifically does Tolkien accomplish by splitting up the Fellowship in this way? Yes Frodo and Sam have already departed and Merry and Pippin have been captured, but what affect does Boromir’s death have on Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli as a group? -
Could Boromir have lived? Yes, the dreaded “what if” question. If Boromir had not died, how could the story have differed? -
What is your opinion on the placement of this scene in relation to the rest of the story?
Any and all other comments, questions, and criticisms may be presented as well. Enjoy the discussion!
"The Road goes ever on..."
Writing Bliss
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Sep 14 2015, 7:49pm
Post #2 of 82
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Thanks for starting us off - some answers!
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Many thanks for starting us "speeding up the hill".
I think there's so much going on in this chapter that it is easy not to stop & think about Boromir. I think you're right to ask us to do so. It's a bittersweet ending (if that's the right word?) quite different to the entirely bitter one his father will come to. And is he a half-way house between Isildur and Aragorn in terms of Ring temptation? Hmm - lots to discuss....
I think we see Aragorn (our protagonist chracter in this, the first hobbit-free chapter of LOTR) at his lowest here - ever after, he has a plan. Right now, he's struggling to work out what to do. In my re-reading, I noticed how he interacts with Legolas and Gimli. Gimli seems to be the voice of practicality; Legolas the voice of compassion. Nobody recriminates, despite it all having gone (seemingly) horribly wrong.
And yet, the rest of the plot is set up here - despite it all seeming a mess, everyone ends up going in what turns out to be the right direction to play a part in the War of the Ring. So I completely agree - the chapter is a massively important piece of set-up (something that didn't dawn on me for a few readings).
~~~~~~
Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Sep 14 2015, 7:54pm
Post #3 of 82
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Aragorn on Amon Hen - does the magic not work for him, or does he see a vision?
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What did Aragorn see when he “sped on up the hill” to Amon Hen? Poor Aragorn, deeply conflicted as it all goes wrong around him, could dearly use some information
Frodo on Amon Hen (in the last chapter of FOTR) saw a complex vision of many things far off, as if he had a sort of magical telescope. I’ve often felt surprised that Aragorn does not appear to have a vision: it seems to me that if the Hill ought to ‘work’ for anyone, it ought to work for Aragorn. In an earlier discussion (http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=775035#775035 some of us discussed why Amon Hen might be ‘faulty’ when Aragorn uses it.
But re-reading this time, I realised that you can read Aragorn as having had a vision, if you read carefully. The relevant text says:
Then sitting in the high seat he looked out. But the sun seemed darkened, and the world dim and remote. He turned from the North back again to North, and saw nothing save the distant hills, unless it were that far away he could see again a great bird like an eagle high in the air, descending slowly in wide circles down towards the earth.
Even as he gazed his quick ears caught sounds in the woodlands below, on the west side of the River. He stiffened. ...
[my italics]
Why “seemed” (why not just “the sun was darkened, and the world dim and remote”)? “Seemed” suggests some uncertainty on Aragorn’s part. I think it can be read as there being something magical or supernatural about what Aragorn sees (though obviously that is not the only possible interpretation). It could be yet another example of Tolkien using the device of “fantastic hesitation” (See BlackFox’s excellent post on what Fantastic Hestiation is http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=833138#833138 : I have been paying attention to words like “seemed” ever since!)
If it is a brief vision that Aragorn has on Amon Hen, I would interpret it as meaning that things are difficult (darkened, dim, remote) but that unexpected help is on its way (the eagle circling down). Gandalf would be the most obvious “unexpected help” to show, though Eagles are anyway a recurring way of visualizing divine help in Middle-earth. I think Aragorn can’t literally have seen an eagle collecting or taking Gandalf somewhere: for example Gandalf’s eagle-bourne journey from Celedbil to Lorien happened days earlier. But of course, that’s not an objection if Aragorn is seeing a magical vision - a vision need not only show him current events.
I’m not claiming this is the One Reading To Rule Them All - so seldom is there, or should there be, One Reading. But I currently like this reading, in which Aragorn does receive a vision, just one of a different kind to the useful military intelligence views Frodo saw. I think that might link nicely with ideas we were discussing in the FOTR read-through about how magical visions seem to work in Middle-earth. (But I think this post is already long enough, so I’ll post again on this, if people want to read that speculation).
~~~~~~
Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
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MirielCelebel
Ossiriand
Sep 14 2015, 8:12pm
Post #4 of 82
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Thanks for the post noWizardme. I love that you pointed out that this is the first hobbit-free chapter. I had not thought of that. Tolkien is obviously shifting focus to more characters who are of equal importance with Frodo and his crew. I really like how you pointed out the possibility of Aragorn's vision. I also had not seen that before and it is very interesting and plausible.
"The Road goes ever on..."
Writing Bliss
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enanito
Nargothrond
Sep 14 2015, 8:16pm
Post #5 of 82
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Reflections on my first reading of TTT Book 1
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I'll leave the in-depth analysis and enlightening to others, I am always amazed at the breadth-and-depth of what I learn during these read-throughs. But I can confidently state what I felt during my own first time through this chapter :)
"The Departure of Boromir" successfully caused this at-the-time 12 year old to completely forget about Frodo and Sam (yes, looking back I can't believe it happened - but happen it did!) Each chapter of Book 1 led me to devour the next chapter, and when I reached Book 2, I seriously was taken aback when the story shifted back to Frodo's journey. Much of "The Taming of Sméagol" was spent by me in a funk thinking that I wanted to go back to the other story line. Of course by the end of Book 2 Chapter 1 I was quite happy sticking it out with Frodo...
As for what happened in this chapter, I must confess that it wasn't until the LOTR movies that I actually thought much of Boromir - in my readings I had never connected with him. But afterwards I paid more attention, and also in the Reading Room have found a lot of details I missed that make him much-more-appreciated to me. During my first readings, his passing was not as impactful as was the loss of the Ring to the Fellowship, and the plight of Merry and Pippen.
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Mikah
Menegroth
Sep 14 2015, 11:04pm
Post #6 of 82
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Hello reading room peeps, would like to comment here!
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"I think we see Aragorn (our protagonist chracter in this, the first hobbit-free chapter of LOTR) at his lowest here - ever after, he has a plan. Right now, he's struggling to work out what to do. In my re-reading, I noticed how he interacts with Legolas and Gimli. Gimli seems to be the voice of practicality; Legolas the voice of compassion. Nobody recriminates, despite it all having gone (seemingly) horribly wrong."
NoWizard, I think this is a very profound statement. People will probably fuss at me for saying this, but this chapter always resonated with me because it was the first chapter that I really, ummm liked Aragorn. He really was at his lowest and for me that gave his character so much depth. Our hero was not perfect. There is something so human about him in this chapter, I really feel like I related with him. His compassion here was rather moving as well. It is so easy to consider another's faults. He did not do that with Boromir. He chose to focus on the valor, strength, and courage. I admire that in him.
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Mikah
Menegroth
Sep 14 2015, 11:27pm
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This is an important chapter. For all of the reasons you mention and more. I mentioned to NoWizard that this was the first chapter I really liked Aragorn. I thought this chapter brought much depth to the character. In Fellowship I have always kind of had the impression of him as being a bit of a know-it-all...I hate to use the word pretentious, but it almost fits my initial perception of him. This chapter made him human to me and it was the first chapter I really respected and related to him.
Here I would like to address the very interesting question you ask. Could Boromir have lived? This is what I love about these read-throughs. I have never thought about it before and I spent sometime thinking about it. My answer here would be no. For the same reasons that Ned Stark could not have lived in Game of Thrones(I guess I think of Thrones here because of Sean Bean). Had Boromir lived, we would have a completely different story. I am not saying it would be a better or worse story, but it would not have been the same. Had Boromir lived, I believe a major part of the plot would have been devoted to keeping the blasted ring away from Boromir. I mean, he is already very effected by the ring, in another day, week, or month? Yikes! Who knows, at the end of the day Aragorn may have had to rid them of Boromir. It is hard to say. But I do know, it would not have been good. The situation ended the only way it could.
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Mikah
Menegroth
Sep 14 2015, 11:35pm
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I felt the same way. This chapter completely sucked me in! I was very irritated when the story shifted to Frodo and Sam as well! lol. Ah geez, it does not anymore, maybe it is because I know that it is going to happen. Shhh...I will tell you a secret here too. I was far more worried about the plight of Merry and Pippin than I was over Frodo...I always liked them better...don't tell anyone!
Ya know, I always liked Boromir. I have that streak in me that always likes the rebel...you know the person who doesn't go along to get along. I was sad to see him go in this. Okay, I will stop for now, I am on four hours of sleep and I am rambling!
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Arannir
Doriath
Sep 15 2015, 11:41am
Post #9 of 82
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Completely agree about Aragorn.
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Aragorn always seemed rather distant and almost unrelatable in the book... Too flawless. But this scene gives him much more emotion and, indeed, depth.
When I reread FotR for the first time many years ago I was able to look at him through more good willing eyes (and later I did understand why the filmmakers wanted to have more of that Aragorn in their adaption).
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Sep 15 2015, 11:43am
Post #10 of 82
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Life, death and redemption themes
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I agree with Micah - if Boromir remains alive, there would be some damage to the existing plot (e.g. it's grief at Boromir's death that drives a lot of Denethor's behaviour).
I also wonder whether the “redemption” theme that MirielCelebel picks up in our starter post pushes Boromir towards life or death here. In the moral code of the old sagas, has Boromir now behaved so badly that only a glorious death can redeem his honour? (I expect someone can comment knowledgeably on this!) I think redemption is a recurring Tolkien theme, but I find it easier to think of characters who are redeemed and then die (or "as they die") than those that are redeemed and go on to live and do heroic things. For my "redeemed & die" examples, I can think of Gollum, Isildur (the Unfinished Tales version of him), Thorin, and possibly Theoden (Theoden is a bit contentious perhaps - he's been lured into inactivity rather than into actively doing bad things). By contrast I can’t think of a single "redeemed-and-live" character. Can anyone else think of characters who turn back from having done evil and aren’t quickly removed from the story?
Maybe having Boromir recover from his Ring-lust and then go on be a help in the War of the Ring would not be a very Tolkien thing? What do you think?
~~~~~~
Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
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MirielCelebel
Ossiriand
Sep 15 2015, 5:44pm
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as a redeemed character who lives? He struggles with the Ring just as Gollum had when in possession of it. He suffers under the weight of it and his personality certainly changes. Perhaps his final action of destroying the Ring is redemption not only for him but all of humanity. And he lives to tell the tale.
"The Road goes ever on..."
Writing Bliss
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Sep 15 2015, 5:45pm
Post #13 of 82
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SPOCK: Quite simply, Captain. I examined the problem from all angles, and it was plainly hopeless. Logic informed me that under the circumstances, the only possible action would have to be one of desperation. Logical decision, logically arrived at.
KIRK: I see. You mean you reasoned that it was time for an emotional outburst.
SPOCK: Well, I wouldn't put it in exactly those terms, Captain, but those are essentially the facts.
-The Galileo Seven
First of all, my DEEPEST apologies for the lateness of the post. I completely forgot to post what had typed up several weeks ago! I do humbly ask your forgiveness.
Absolutely no need. Anybody willing to take on the extremely tough job of discussion leader in The Reading Room deserves a boatload of tolerance, latitude, and, foremost, courtesy. (Except for Darkstone. That bozo deserves to be ragged unmercifully.)
How did this chapter affect you reading it the first time?
“I wonder how Tolkien will bring Boromir back?”
Does it affect you differently when you reread it?
“Why is Boromir the only member of the Fellowship Tolkien kills off?”
How significant a role does Aragorn play in this scene and what do you think it does for his character?
My heart speaks clearly at last…
Later:
"And yet even I, Dwarf of many journeys, and not the least hardy of my folk, cannot run all the way to Isengard without any pause ' said Gimli. "My heart burns me too, and I would have started sooner but now I must rest a little to run the better. And if we rest, then the blind night is the time to do so."
"I said that it was a hard choice," said Aragorn. "How shall we end this debate?"
"You are our guide," said Gimli,"and you are skilled in the chase. You shall choose."
"My heart bids me go on," said Legolas.
-The Riders of Rohan
For the wisdom of the flesh is death; but the wisdom of the spirit is life and peace.
-Romans 8:6
By abandoning his earthly ambitions of kingship, he finds true wisdom in his heart, and so is able to inspire the hearts of Gimli and Legolas, and later the hearts of Eomer, Theoden, Eowyn, and the rest of the Rohirrim. (I leave those latter “heart” quotes for the reader.)
What specifically does Tolkien accomplish by splitting up the Fellowship in this way?
He’s able to further expand the scope, themes, and nature of his epic. Merry and Pippin can go on an innocent “hobbit walking-party” reminiscent of The Hobbit, Aragorn can go his “Boys' Own adventure” with Legolas, Gimili, and later Gandalf (What young boy wouldn't like go on a quest with an Elf, a Dwarf, and a Wizard as his loyal friends in order to win the hand of a beautiful Princess?), and Frodo and Sam descend into the moral and spiritual darkness of Sauron’s Inferno with Gollum as their Virgilian guide.
This is good stuff!
Frodo and Sam have already departed and Merry and Pippin have been captured, but what affect does Boromir’s death have on Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli as a group?
Fellowship member #7: the guy in the Fellowship who dies to prove how serious the situation is.
Could Boromir have lived?
Sure. I fully expected him to swim ashore at the beaches of Dol Amroth with a starfish stuck to his backside.
Yes, the dreaded “what if” question.
Frankly, in my own musings I've always tended to contemplate the "what if" questions involving Shieldmaiden shower habits.
If Boromir had not died, how could the story have differed?
Boromir and Aragorn (who notes a change in Boromir – who is keen to break off the chase and go home) reach Minas Tirith, which is besieged by Sauron except at back. ? Siege is briefly told from point of view of watchers on battlements. Evil has now hold of Boromir who is jealous of Aragorn. The Lord of Minas Tirith is slain and they choose Aragorn. Boromir deserts and sneaks off to Saruman, to get his help in becoming Lord of Minas Tirith.
-HoME VII, The Treason of Isengard
There seems no hope. Evil has now got complete hold of Boromir. The Lord of Minas Tirith is slain. They choose Aragorn as chief. Boromir is jealous and enraged - he deserts and sneaks off to Saruman, seeking his aid in getting lordship.
-ibid
What about Boromir? Does he repent? [Written later in margin: No - slain by Aragorn.]
-ibid
What is your opinion on the placement of this scene in relation to the rest of the story?
Like gold-shirt Lieutenants Gaetano and Latimer, and of course the ever-dying Crewman #6, Boromir’s death is the dyscatastrophe that is absolutely necessary in order for the subsequent eucatastrophes in the story to work:
The consolation of fairy-stories, the joy of the happy ending: or more correctly of the good catastrophe, the sudden joyous “turn” (for there is no true end to any fairy-tale): this joy, which is one of the things which fairy-stories can produce supremely well, is not essentially 'escapist', nor 'fugitive'. In its fairy-tale—or otherworld—setting, it is a sudden and miraculous grace: never to be counted on to recur. It does not deny the existence of dyscatastrophe, of sorrow and failure: the possibility of these is necessary to the joy of deliverance; it denies (in the face of much evidence, if you will) universal final defeat and in so far is evangelium, giving a fleeting glimpse of Joy, Joy beyond the walls of the world, poignant as grief.
-On Fairy-Stories
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Brother will fight brother and both be his slayer,
brother and sister will violate all bonds of kinship;
hard it will be in the world, there will be much failure of honor,
an age of axes, an age of swords, where shields are shattered,
an age of winds, an age of wolves, where the world comes crashing down;
no man will spare another.
-From the Völuspá, 13th century
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shadowdog
Nargothrond
Sep 15 2015, 5:58pm
Post #14 of 82
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Well it has been many years since I first read TT
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So, this rereading is done through the eyes of the movie. This chapter is skimpy on what exactly happened in the battle that took place. It has little description of those who attacked and were fought and killed by Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli and the details of the fight by Boromir. They are more focused on the funeral service for Boromir. I don't think much difference would have happened overall if Boromir would have lived. He would have obeyed his father and gone to his death trying to retake Osgiliath. I think Aragorn assumed his leadership role as "king" more firmly starting here if I may use this term. Before this, he let the river take him along not sure where they were going or how they would get there.
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Sep 15 2015, 6:06pm
Post #15 of 82
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We certainly should consider Frodo!
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He goes so far to claim the Ring, of course, but then comes back from it. A major exception, therefore!
Is it the exception that proves the rule? Ursula Le Guin has argued that Gollum is Frodo's shadow self in many ways. So does Gollum's death count for them both? Or is Frodo excused because the temptation he's under is impossible to resist?
What interesting things are coming up this week!
~~~~~~
Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
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shadowdog
Nargothrond
Sep 15 2015, 6:14pm
Post #16 of 82
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Faramir and also Eowyn. They in essence were redeemed and lived.
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Sep 15 2015, 8:33pm
Post #18 of 82
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Could you explain that further?
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It's possible that I'm thinking of "redeemed" in too narrow a sense. I was thinking of characters who do one or more things that are presented to us as very wrong morally (trying to take the Ring; refusing to share Smaugs loot fairly, committing multiple murders, starting with your best friend) Eowyn and Faramir don't seem to fit that pattern to me. The worst that Eowyn does is to dessert her post.and go off to fight as a private soldier, expecting & probably welcoming death. But other characters don't seem to regard this as all that bad (no move to court-Marshall her, for example). I'm not sure what Faramir does badly wrong, either. To be sure they each have a really bad time, each suffering some serious relationship problems and mortal wounds. And things look to be taking a happier turn once they find each other. But I wouldn't have though of this as redemption. That may be because I started thinking about this in a particular context & have got stuck there, of course...
So I'd like to hear more about what you're thinking here. Are we thinking of "redemption" in different ways? Or is your analysis different? Either is very likely to be interesting!
~~~~~~
Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Sep 15 2015, 8:59pm
Post #19 of 82
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The orc Attack - book vs movie
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I think that's a good point , shadowdog: PJ makes the most of the fight scenes as the or s attack. Re-reading the end of Breakingof the Fellowship just now I read that Frodo and then Sam hear "cries in the woods" but it's not clear to the reader what these are (they could perfectly well be read as Frodo's companions calling for him). Whether Frodo and Sam realise from the cries that the Fellowship is being attacked is not clear.
Then, in our current chapter we follow Aragorn, who doesn't get involved in the fighting (he misses it, perhaps in part because of his decision to go to AmonHen to seek a vision).
I think that gives things a different spin. In the movie, first Aragorn and the. Merry & Pippin see Frodo fleeing, understand why, see the orcs coming, and deliberately act to fight or distract the orcs. So the Breaking of the Fellowship becomes partly something the Fellowship do deliberately and heroically to allow Frodo to escape. The book situation is much more confused: nobody knows everything that's going on.
I think this might have something to do with Tolkiens decision to put Boromir's death in Chapter 1 of TT, instead of at the end of FOTR, as the movie does. Maybe that adds to Aragorn seeming confused rather than heroic just now. But I've not worked that out yet ...
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Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
(This post was edited by noWizardme on Sep 15 2015, 9:00pm)
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shadowdog
Nargothrond
Sep 15 2015, 9:13pm
Post #20 of 82
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Well I didn't use that narrow a definition
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I see redemption as a turn around in actions or character that was once heading in the wrong direction. The movie Faramir was going to ruin the goal of taking the ring to Mordor to destroy it by forcing Frodo and the ring to Gondor. He later "redeemed" himself by changing and releasing Frodo, Sam, and Gollum to continue their quest. In the book, he redeemed himself in his father's eyes by going back out to war and later redeemed himself by becoming a fair and just ruler in his own right. Eowyn I saw at the beginning of the tale as a self-centered, immature individual more focused on herself and her wants and needs than on what was best for all of Rohan. She was in a sense demanding that Aragorn follow her desires. When she sneaks off to war and takes Pippin with her, she begins to see outside of herself to the larger world and in the end kills the evil threat and finds happiness with Faramir when the coldness around her heart melted. Very romantic on my part, I know; but that is the way I saw her arc throughout the trilogy.
(This post was edited by shadowdog on Sep 15 2015, 9:20pm)
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shadowdog
Nargothrond
Sep 15 2015, 9:32pm
Post #22 of 82
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Was that actually done by Tolkien?
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He created a massive 1 volume tale from what I understand. Wasn't it the editor who split it into 3 volumes with 2 books in each volume?
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Sep 15 2015, 9:34pm
Post #23 of 82
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Maybe we should think of Book 3 as "Aragorn's Book?"
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All but 2 of the Book 3 chapters follow the events in which Aragorn is involved (with the storming of Isengard being told to him by M &P, rather than shown to us as seen by the hobbits). Aragorn goes from the confusion of the current chapter to receiving the Palantir. His use of that to challenge Sauron - successfully- doesn't quite fall into Two Towers (probably because it sets off the scramble to ridge Minas Tirith, so belongs with that). But still...
~~~~~~
Join us for a read-through of The Two Towers (Book III of Lord of the Rings) in the Reading-Room - 13 September- 29 November 2015.
Schedule etc: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=864064#864064
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MirielCelebel
Ossiriand
Sep 15 2015, 9:44pm
Post #24 of 82
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So happy someone else brought up the film/book difference
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I mentioned it briefly in my analysis of the chapter but I think it is important. Shadowdog had a good point that the battle scene is much more elaborated in the film and that is probably, simply put, because PJ loves action sequences, and in his original trilogy succeeded in doing very epic and believable battles. I agree, noWizard, that the Fellowship deliberately allows Frodo to escape in the film and I think it showed the camaraderie of the group as a whole. Each film, as with each book, needed a story arc (an introduction/recap, a body, and a conclusion). We meet the Fellowship, individually and watch their relationship with one another grow through trials, and the culmination of that relationship is found in the final events of the first film when they bond together to let Frodo escape, Boromir dies saving Merry and Pippin, and Aragorn forges his friendship with Legolas and Gimli even further in their pursuit of the orcs. PJ thus sets up the next movie quite nicely. I think by Tolkien opening in the middle of this sequence he is sending just as powerful a message. The next book opens amid chaos and confusion. No one really knows what's happening, Frodo has left, Boromir dies, and Aragorn is forced to make a drastic decision. The readers are immediately drawn into this scenario and wish to see it through to the end. That is my personal opinion of why and how the book/film was organized.
"The Road goes ever on..."
Writing Bliss
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MirielCelebel
Ossiriand
Sep 15 2015, 9:47pm
Post #25 of 82
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the books are more accurately a novel split into three parts as opposed to a trilogy but even Tolkien could not have hoped to get it published as one volume. It's simply too large. But you are correct that the book was not intended to be split as it were.
"The Road goes ever on..."
Writing Bliss
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