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Earl
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Apr 3 2008, 11:19am
Post #1 of 14
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The Lonely Mountain theme... a flash back to speculation; and a conclusion.
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I’ll begin by saying that this post is a consequence of my general absence over the past few months from the LOTR communities, and TORN in especial. RL seems to have taken its toll on me and these months have been all good times. Things seem to be looking up now, if only a little, and I found the time to sift through the discussions here that I’ve loved but missed – ‘SCOD’, ‘Did You Ever Notice… Costumes’, ‘Movie Tech. Discussion’, and ‘MISC’ (and of course, the occasional ‘Hobbit’ speculations and whatnot).
So, to flash back, this actually started a few months ago with Loresilme’s “MISC 12/29/07: Thror's Map” post, one of my favourite “legend” scenes in the movies.
Being a movie firster, I had no idea what this was. I remember watching the movie the first time, and my friend (a book firster who introduced me to the movies) murmured that the map “belonged to dwarves”. I suddenly felt magical, remembering the tales I’d read when I was little, of dwarves mining for jewels in the night, and who vanished by day. Only travelers through the mountains would bring back tales of dwarves emerging out of secret doors in the mountain-sides, sadly chanting in strange tongues as they went along. To someone who was just being introduced to the world of Tolkien, “The Lonely Mountain” seemed like a beautifully magical place, and the image remained ingrained in my memory.
Well, then, to cut a long story sort, I became a Tolkien-PJ fan-geek and like all others of our kind, ended up watching the DVDs over and over, while memorizing and listing details (as if our lives depended on them). I’d known how PJ, Fran, Philippa and Shore worked on the movies, and then there came a time when I got the FOTR:OST; and while it introduced me to something wholly new about the movies, I knew there was more – and especially, “The Lonely Mountain theme” was not on it.
I’d known about Howard Shore’s use of motifs/themes, and I knew about the Lonely Mountain. Anyway, that was how I joined them and so called it “The Lonely Mountain theme”. I scoured the web, searching movie and soundtrack sites for more details on this bit of music that had no name, and there was nothing. It seemed as if that little “motif” either escaped people’s ears, had on relevance, or I just wasn’t searching right (I blamed it on Google, which I still think returns irrelevant information at times :D). After a long time, though I reconciled myself to the fact that this was just “filler music”, I referred to it as The Lonely Mountain theme.
I mentioned it in passing way back on the Movie Music message boards (long before Doug launched his own blog) where soundtrack fans spent geeky hours discussing LOTR’s music, and driving Doug round the bend.
So when I was writing out the stuff for The House Of Eorl, I described the scene as:
“While Bilbo scampers around the house as if in time with the Hobbit Outline Figure accompaniment, Gandalf, left alone, wanders around and comes upon Bilbo’s table by the fireside, strewn with maps and other paraphernalia. As his gaze falls upon a familiar map – The Dwarves’ Map of The Lonely Mountain, a choir hums The Lonely Mountain theme, a brief interlude brimming with mystery and legend.”
And then later, when Bilbo is about to leave Bag End, I described the scene as:
“Mysterious tones permeate the score as Bilbo reaches the end of his Birthday Speech and bids the hobbits farewell, before slipping on the Ring and vanishing from their sight. Amidst the uproar that follows, Bilbo secretly escapes to Bag End, quite pleased with himself and the success of his little joke. As he readies to depart, he finds himself confronted by a rather annoyed Gandalf. The unexpectedness of seeing the old Wizard as he prepares to set out on his new adventure reminds Bilbo of how it all began – a Quest long ago. Once again, the choir hums a variation of The Lonely Mountain theme.”
In that MISC post, Magpie entertained Loresilme’s curiosity with a chunk of relevant information (excerpted here, and can be read in its entirety using the above MISC-link):
“I'm not sure what it means. I took a look at it last night with some confidence I could work it out. I even had a reply window up ready to type. But, in the end, I had nothing to offer.
On my own, I would think that Shore is hinting at a theme (or themes?) that will develop later in LOTR. If so, what theme is he hinting at? It certainly sounds familiar which is an agonizing feeling. I never know if a naggingly familiar piece of music sounds like something in another part of the movie, or only sounds familiar because I've heard that one piece a hundred times. If he's hinting at a well known theme (and I know most of them that have been widely discussed in soundtrack circles) then I can't pinpoint which one.
It reminds me a little of the Shire theme... a little of the Fellowship... a little of the Ring... maybe even a little of Gollum's Pity theme. That can't be, can it? It can't sound like all those themes? Well, it could. All of those themes are connected in subtle ways. So when Shore monkeys around with them, it becomes really hard to figure out which theme it sounds like.
But that doesn't mean that he is hinting at all or any one of those. The simple answer on my part is, "I have no idea". The track notes for FOTR were frustratingly brief and I think Doug is planning on expanding on them in his book.
For the record, it's on the CR-ROTK, Disc 1, Track 4, Very Old Friends. Without verifying by pulling the movie up, I think the music is heard from about 1:15 - 1:30. I'll try to prepare some sound clips and make them available a little later.
I checked two resources online. One is the LOTR Score Analysis Project which didn't have any comment for this section other than the Hobbit Outline Figure (which actually doesn't play during the map moments). And I checked Earl's site, House of Eorl. He says, "As [Gandalf's] gaze falls upon a familiar map – The Dwarves’ Map of The Lonely Mountain, a choir hums The Lonely Mountain theme, a brief interlude brimming with mystery and legend." I don't think "The Lonely Mountain" theme is anything official. I've never heard of it before. Perhaps Earl has perceived it being used elsewhere. But a google site search doesn't work so I don't know if he refers to it someplace else. Perhaps a PM or email to him could get him in on this conversation.”
Being away, I had no idea this discussion was taking place, and I’m not sure if Loresilme emailed me or not (I haven’t received anything Loresilme, or I would have replied earlier, and I sincerely hope anything you sent me hasn’t already been auto-deleted from my Spam folder).
I know that Loresilme pursued this further, for looking back through Doug’s blog, I noticed that she also inquired about this theme there, and then came back to TORN with a follow-up post titled “A LOTR Musical Mystery?”. That was two months ago and I still was away, so I couldn’t be part of that discussion either.
Anyway, to get back to the present, I apologize for the inconvenience caused to anyone who might have been thrown away by the term I used on my site, without so much as a note saying its wasn’t official (Magpie said she did a search and it didn’t work, but she did spend time searching nonetheless, so apologies to you Magpie – I’m not as detail-oriented as you surely are). I always meant to put an annotation in there, but there was so much work with getting the site up and then there were other things suddenly happening in my life, that being the careless person I am, it slipped my mind. There are a couple of other “themes”, that I think are themes, ones that I noticed through multiple listenings of the Complete Recordings, but not being official, I didn’t name them on my site. This one slipped through the cracks possibly because I had the name in my head since 2002, and so I used it in without thinking twice, so to speak.
So to recapitulate, this definitely isn’t an official theme. And I can say this with 100% surety because I coined it on a whim, just to have a name for it, which is why Doug would have no idea about it, not unless he’s had the patience to read through every page of my site and stumble upon it, and he surely doesn’t have the time for that.
References:
1. These are the sound clips of the map scene that Magpie posted in reply to Loresilme’s MISC post.
Map music from movie
Map music from complete recordings
2. And here is a clip of the latter scene when Bilbo is about to leave Bag End I just uploaded.
The Lonely Mountain theme (variation)
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Magpie
Elvenhome
Apr 3 2008, 1:25pm
Post #3 of 14
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this topic is being discussed at moviemusic
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I can't say anything earthshaking has come forth so I decided not link to it from here. But since it's resurfaced here, I will.
Look for the last four posts on THIS PAGE. (please excuse the diversionary unpleasantness that precludes these posts) The conversation continues on the following page (which is page 16 of the thread).
Loresilme also posted a followup to her initial post HERE. FarFromHome had a suggestion as to some similar music. I listened last night to see if I wanted to bring that to moviemusic. I think the music between the two scenes mentioned (in that thread) are somewhat similar but not similar enough for me to note. It may have something to do with how I approach themes so I'm not saying they aren't connected... only that it's not something I'd follow up on personally.
magpie avatar gallery ~ soundtrack website
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Earl
Forum Admin
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Apr 3 2008, 2:26pm
Post #4 of 14
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I'm wondering what happened out there but I can't seem to figure it out. Oh well... 
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Earl
Forum Admin
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Apr 3 2008, 2:53pm
Post #5 of 14
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WOW... I have been away a long time
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The latest incarnation of the LOTR Package Update thread on the Movie Music boards has again crossed 15 pages. Thanks for pointing me back there, the discussion has veered into Shore's approach for the music of The Hobbit at a pretty much "right" time, seeing as the maestro has himself just confirmed he's on it, and how 
About FarFromHome's suggestions about the other hints of this bit of music, I haven't had the time to listen yet. I'm going to soon as I can but I've listened so much to the CRs that I'm pretty much certain the "theme" (as it is registered in my mind) does not play anywhre else, except in those two places. However, I read FarFromHome's post, and he seems to be much more musically knowledgeable than I am, so I can't say for certain that what my mind constitutes a theme is necessarily the same as his. For example, when he talks about "minor-key ascent", all I can think is that there's something rising in the chromatic scale that began in a minor key (and I may be wrong). I'm sure it goes deeper than that, because the only reason it make a wee bit of sense to me is that I know what bit of music he's talking about, and since I can play the piano by ear, this would be a clue to "start with a minor key and move upwards".
Anyway, I secretly wished that this theme would return in The Hobbit, developing each time the Map is the focus (first in Bag End, then in Rivendell) and finally have a glorious but ominous sounding choral statement when the raft atop which Bilbo is sitting turns a bend and the wide lands of the East open before him, and afar (and yet all too near) he looks upon the Lonely Mountain for the first time, as that fabled spur of rock as an out-thrust of the distant Mountains of the North. I think I might cry if that comes to pass 
P.S.: I did link to Loresilme's second post above, but like the link to her MISC post, this link too doesn't work. FarFromHome has posted both links too.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Apr 3 2008, 3:53pm
Post #6 of 14
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I don't know how you saved them
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but the most foolproof way of saving links is to click on the "Copy shortcut" link below your avatar. It seems that depending on what screen you're on, the address for a given post may change, and then it won't work for someone starting from another screen.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Apr 3 2008, 4:00pm
Post #7 of 14
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I'm not musically knowledgeable at all (that bit about "minor key ascent" was just off the top of my head - it sounds like a minor key to me, and the notes rise in sequence...).
And I'm not a 'he'...
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Earl
Forum Admin
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Apr 4 2008, 11:37am
Post #8 of 14
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I was typing away furiously and being a "he", I tended to use "he" (silly reason I know). Well, atleast now I'll never forget
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Earl
Forum Admin
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Apr 4 2008, 3:55pm
Post #9 of 14
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Here's what Doug said concerning this bit of music eariler today on the Movie Music message boards
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Quote Doug (you'll have to scroll all the way down):
"Hi everyone!
Just to clarify – this lovely melodic line is not a standalone theme in The Lord of the Rings simply because it never repeats in this guise. The statement under Bilbo’s map is unique. That said, its linear nature certainly relates it to the Shire theme… though it’s in minor. It also seems related to the Seduction of the Ring… though it descends more severely and ends earlier.
There’s a bass clarinet line a few scenes later that again sounds somewhat like this figure, but again it’s more showing the Shire material edging towards the Seduction material and lacks that descending fourth note of the Unnamed Figure in Question.
So it’s not a theme in The Lord of the Ring, though it certainly fits right in to the fabric... which is probably why listeners often feel the material sounds familiar.
Will it return in The Hobbit? I don’t know. The Hobbit themes do not yet exist. Howard’s in his dreaming phase right now. He is reading, imagining, populating his thoughts with Tolkien’s material. I suspect that once The Fly’s revisions are complete, he’ll begin to jot down his first ideas. Will the Unnamed Figure be part of this collection? Perhaps, perhaps not.
But I’ll say this… I wouldn’t be surprised to see it in there. After all, doesn’t a figure that falls somewhere between the Shire and the Seduction of the Ring aptly represent Bilbo’s experiences in the Misty Mountains?
That’s all I’ll say until I’ll say more.  -Doug"
Hmmm, I'm not sure what Doug refers to when he says "There’s a bass clarinet line a few scenes later that again sounds somewhat like this figure". I know I think I hear it when Bilbo is packing up and about to leave (see my first post in this thread for more details, and the soundclip), but I don't know what Doug is really referring to; I don't think I'd pursue it further with him since he's said this is all he'll say.
But at least we know this: there are only two iterations of this theme, and that the second happens after the Dwarf Map scene. That seems to narrow it down a bit 
Also, if Doug "thinks" (even if vaugely) that this theme is gonna reappear in The Hobbit, I'm pretty sure it will. I'm already getting teary eyed - this was the first thing that musically caught me long years ago when I first got introduced to LOTR and Tolkien. I knew nothing about themes then and I'm shivering now that I remember again how this theme caught me, it feels as if this was "meant to happen".
Well, here's to The Hobbit becoming a reality, and here's to having "The Lonely Mountain theme" returning *sniff*
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Apr 4 2008, 4:06pm
Post #10 of 14
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You're not the first to assume I'm a guy. I must have picked a male-sounding nick or something.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Loresilme
Doriath
Apr 4 2008, 11:42pm
Post #11 of 14
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Wow ... no wonder my ears were ringing :-)
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Goodness, take a few days away from the boards and look what you come back to!
This is an amazing thread. Earl, thank you so much.
I so much know what you mean about being a movie-firster - for instance, the first time I watched FOTR, when Gandalf is talking to Frodo in the cart and he says, "If you're referring to the incident with the dragon…" I had no idea what that entire statement referred to. Then when I read the books and understood things in the context of The Hobbit, oh what a magical feeling that was, to go back and to understand just exactly what they were talking about there!
But, but, but…. back to the subject at hand. The Lonely Mountain theme. To me, it'll never be anything else. It will now forever be that, in my mind and spirit. For a while there, I thought it was just my imagination, nothing meaningful, but thank you so much for this post and these links, because now that I see how these many other people, including yourself, all found themselves sitting bolt upright at that abrupt change in the feeling of the music at that moment, all swept up into their imaginations with it …. now I am even more convinced, that yes, this was meant to be.
I ventured this hope in my earlier post … and now I feel even more emphatic about it:
If fans created "Figwit" ... can we not create The Lonely Mountain Theme :-)?
I love how you picture it:
_________________
Anyway, I secretly wished that this theme would return in The Hobbit, developing each time the Map is the focus
(first in Bag End, then in Rivendell) and finally have a glorious but ominous sounding choral statement when
the raft atop which Bilbo is sitting turns a bend and the wide lands of the East open before him, and afar
(and yet all too near) he looks upon the Lonely Mountain for the first time, as that fabled spur of rock
as an out-thrust of the distant Mountains of the North. I think I might cry if that comes to pass
____________________
I would definitely cry too, and they would have to hold me back from shouting, "That's our theme, you know, we had a part in that!!" They might have to escort me out of the theater :-).
So yes, let us call it The Lonely Mountain Theme ... and hope that we are vindicated in our belief in it by a reappearance of it in The Hobbit. I just have that funny completely-unfounded-certainty-of-feeling .... that HS somehow knows of our devotion to the music of Middle Earth, and that if he can, he will honor it.
P.S. And I am so glad that your absence from TORn was because you were off enjoying some RL happy times. Good for you! (Where are those tap-dancing animated smilies when you need them??)
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Earl
Forum Admin
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Apr 5 2008, 6:24am
Post #12 of 14
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this is 'our theme' now, and even if howard shore didn't intend it, i sure hope he honours our devotion to the music and includes it in the score for the hobbit. of course, there's a chance it won't be called 'the lonely mountain theme', but as long as the music alludes to what we know in our hearts, i'm sure we'll all be thinking of each other, teary-eyed yet smiling, in the theatre the first time this theme pleasantly surprises us in the hobbit
i'm so glad to have shared this little moment with so many others... this feels like one of those things in lotr that just 'are', simply waiting to be acknowledged by us fans 
p.s. i just re-read the first few lines of my first post more carefully, and noticed there was a typo in there. i meant to say that the last few months have been 'anything but good times'. my mother completed her 6 chemo cycles and started radiation, of which she requires 25 sessions, and has completed 14 so far. its on the face, and she's been having problem eating and swallowing, and the skin is getting blackened like a burn scar. it's not been a very good 6 months ever since last october/novemeber but things are starting to look up... the reports are good, the radiation is only required to formally complete the treatment, and we're hoping it all ends soon and she's restored to good health quickly.
p.p.s sorry about the lack of capitals, my home keyboard needs to be replaced.
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Loresilme
Doriath
Apr 5 2008, 1:47pm
Post #13 of 14
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I'm so sorry. I knew that your mother had been ill and I hoped that it had meant there had been a turn for the better overall.
If this any help whatsoever .... Mr. Loresilme's mother developed cancer in the area of her nose and eventually had to have surgery to remove a significant portion of that area, however after having reconstructive surgery, she ultimately healed very well and there literally was no sign of it, her appearance was restored to completely what it was before. We were so awed by the skill of the doctors.
I am hoping the very best for your mom too.
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Earl
Forum Admin
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Apr 7 2008, 5:07am
Post #14 of 14
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Yes, it is comforting, and heartening, to hear stories of cancer surviours. I'm glad Mr.Loresilme's mother is doing well again.
Thanks for keeping us in your thoughts
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