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Loresilme
Doriath
Feb 23 2008, 12:19pm
Post #1 of 6
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A LOTR Musical Mystery?
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Several months ago I posted a MISC of Thror's Map ... which was the scene where Gandalf is in Bag End looking over the things on Bilbo's desk. As he picks up the map, there is a change in the accompanying music. A very short passage is played, just a few notes, but it is a noticeably different 'melody'.
Now, here is the mystery. Several people, myself included, feel that this short passage is linked somehow, or related to elsewhere, or repeated somewhere in the films. I got started thinking this because of the way in which I noticed it. At first, as I watched the films, I never noticed this passage at all. It took me many months - you know it was at that point where you've watched them so much, you start noticing the 'little' details? - that I suddenly even 'heard' it, and then when I did, it really stuck out and I went, "What?! Wait ... oh cool, that's that slightly menacing music around Gollum and the mountains!" And I had one of those wonderful geeky thrill moments. Or so I thought....
Because supposedly .... I am told, by Doug Adams, those little notes don't really actually refer to anything else. They don't relate to another theme or place or person, they're just a hint of mystery or adventure, that sort of thing:
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"This theme does not specifically connect to anything else in Shore’s LOTR scores…
but there’s no telling if it may make a return on a future journey to Middle-earth! We shall see…"
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The *problem* is, although my left brain logically accepts the answer provided by Doug (and I do bow, honestly, no disrespect intended) ... my right brain doesn't care, it remains imperturbably unconvinced. This is because of the way I noticed it in the film. My left brain was not involved  . It was my right brain that 'recognized' something in those notes.
So....in my obsessive stubbornness, I have searched and searched, trying to find this connection, and I just cannot find it.
But my right brain still cares nothing at all about the failure of my left brain's systematic and analytical attempts to find an answer. My right brain *just feels* that it recognized this pattern ... this combination of notes ... the key or the motif or the intervals (*pulls out musical glossary*) ... something!
So here is where you TORn Movie Board LOTR experts come in   ... I throw myself on your mercy and your expertise. Nowhere else is there the wealth of knowledge and listening / watching hours and attention to detail on these films, as there is right here on this board. If, in addition to Doug, you all also feel that Loresilme is down the river without a paddle on this one, I will bow to your consensus on this matter and put it to bed, and gratefully go back to getting some sleep myself  !
Here are the zipped files of the map music, courtesy of our own LOTR music expert, Magpie (*bows & waves thank you to Magpie*). The notes (sort of an ascending, descending series...) begin around the middle of the recording ...
Map music from movie
Map music from complete recordings
So TORnSibs .... "What say you?" "What does your heart - and ear - tell you?!"
 Loresilme
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Magpie
Elvenhome
Feb 23 2008, 8:15pm
Post #2 of 6
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Rather than talk about the music, I thought I'd comment on the reply Doug gave. I know that Loresilme was pretty excited about this music and was hoping for more than 'nothing there'. (btw... the original discussion was here. Doug's comment, quoted above by Loresilme, was given to her request for more info on his blog.)
And I will reiterate that my strengths here are in a long term immersion into the subject and the community but musical knowledge isn't much of a strength for me. I'm just an advanced fan.
First: Doug says, "This theme does not specifically connect to anything else in Shore’s LOTR scores… "
Does the word 'specifically' qualify his answer? He might be saying that there is a connection but it's a tenuous one. Some of the conversation re: the music can get quite technical and maybe he felt that what connection there was would be too advanced for a casual question (and Loresilme did not have any history on the blog so he wouldn't know if she was asking from a musicologist standpoint or a fan standpoint.) On the other hand, Doug is pretty careful and precise with his words and I can imagine, even if he didn't want to delve into music theory, he could have been more forthcoming with there being some connection had he felt that was the case.
Second: Doug has been known to make mistakes. For whatever reason, the annotated score is full of them. The could be mistakes resulting from the typesetting, but if the typesetter changed 'Adunaic' (from Doug's galley) to 'Black Speech' (in the annotated score) Doug would catch that. It could be that Doug has an assistant that does some amount of writing for him (transcribe these lyrics from this resource...) and that assistant changed 'Adunaic' to 'Black Speech'. (There has not been any indication that Doug is working with an assistant but that isn't proof he's not.) Perhaps Doug (or an assistant) just has bad info. But I suspect that there's just a lot of information and, in the end, it's easy to get stuff mixed up or confused.
To answer a question like Loresilme's, Doug would have to (probably) pull up a clip and listen. Or refer to notes. Or maybe pull up some other info. I know, when people ask me questions like this, that it can take a long time to 'check' and I don't always have a long time. So I'm left deciding, do I postpone answering (sometimes for weeks) or give the best answer I can without fully checking. I do know that Doug is busy so it's possible that he didn't give the question his full attention.
Third: Maybe Doug doesn't see a connection but there's one there anyhow. Case in point. Back when there were a handful of people working on the soundtrack and we were all in the gritty process of finding the themes of the music, I declared a phrase heard only a few times 'a theme'. The phrase was really only spare notes. Right click THIS LINK, download the zip file, unzip and listen. What I originally noticed wasn't so much the melodic first 10 seconds but the up down notes (I told you I wasn't a musicologist) in the last part.
This is only heard two times in the movies (with one possibly related variant). That's not many and I tend not to focus on things heard less than 5 times. But there seemed, to me, to be a clear connection between the scenes where it was used:
FOTR: As Galadriel, in the prologue, talks about the history of the Ring.
(in the gloom of Gollum's cave...)
...it waited. (dark screen)
Darkness crept back in the forest of the world. (moon in night sky)
Rumour grew of a shadow in the East, whispers of a nameless fear. (a ripple in water)
And the Ring of Power perceived its time had now come. (red sun setting - signifying darkness descending?)
It abandoned Gollum. But something happened then, the Ring did not intend. (the Ring tumbling down a rocky incline)
FOTR The music heard as Frodo begs Gandalf to take the Ring has the same up/down motion to it but the notes are not the same and the rocking phrase goes on longer. There is a similarity to the scenes' content, however. Frodo is attempting to pass the Ring and the Ring is certainly presented as being seductive and dangerous to Gandalf.
TTT: As Galadriel, in a voice over, discusses the fate of Middle-earth and the Ring's part in it.
(In his heart, Frodo begins to understand. The quest will claim his life.)
You know this. You have foreseen it. (Elrond's face)
It is the risk we all took. (fade out on Elrond)
(Ring tumbling in the air)
In the gathering dark, the will of the Ring grows strong. (Ring tumbling in the air)
It works hard now to find its way back into the hands of men. (blindfolded Hobbits)
Men, who are so easily seduced by its power.
In both instances, the Ring is described as having it's own 'consciousness': it 'perceived' and 'the will of the Ring'. In both cases, Galadriel is talking in a voice over and we see the Ring, close up and tumbling. In both cases, the opportunity for it exchanging it's bearer is discussed. The first time 'it abandoned Gollum'. The second time 'it works hard to find its way back into the hands of men.' I named the theme 'The Will of the Ring'.
Fellow soundtrack fans seemed more focused (than I was) on verification that something *was* a theme. They wanted confirmation. One emailed Doug and asked, "Is (Magpie) right? Do these relate to each other somehow?" Doug answered, "Just connecting material. No theme."
Well, I wasn't happy with this answer. I don't mean I was dissatisfied... I was grumbly unhappy. For a few reasons. One was, everyone wanted me to drop it as a theme and give it up. I refused. I am a bit of a free thinker at times and I was unwilling to give up this idea just because someone said it was wrong. I kept it on the site as a theme and ignored the quiet, affectionate scorn of fellow soundtrack fans.
When the CR-FOTR came out, a theme - Nameless Fear - was mentioned but not discussed. A few of us had our suspicions as to what this would turn out to be and we were right when the CR-TTT came out. It was, in fact, my 'Will of the Ring'. Doug took his name for the theme from the FOTR Dialog where I took mine from the TTT dialog. I still feel that 'Will of the Ring' is a better description of the intent of those scenes than 'Nameless Fear'. But I also think that Doug remembered what he said about that music. I think he either rethought his position or got new information that made him change his mind. And I think he knew what I had written and the name I had given and came up with his own name so as not to 'plagiarize' my name. Now, keep in mind that I have high regard and high affection for Doug so none of this is said with any resentment or rancor. It is said with great pride that I stuck to my guns and didn't allow other people to tell me what to think. I thought for myself and owned my opinion even when it differed from official position.
So, to bring this long post back to topic, the music associated with the map may be connected to other music. Here's what I wrote in the previous conversation:
It reminds me a little of the Shire theme... a little of the Fellowship... a little of the Ring... maybe even a little of Gollum's Pity theme. That can't be, can it? It can't sound like all those themes? Well, it could. All of those themes are connected in subtle ways. So when Shore monkeys around with them, it becomes really hard to figure out which theme it sounds like.
If I get a chance, I may give it some more of my attention. Please... don't think 'the music expert is going to speak and she'll know more than I so I won't post'. I'm NOT a music expert. Please post what you all think. :-)
my web page on Nameless Fear
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Loresilme
Doriath
Feb 24 2008, 1:44am
Post #3 of 6
(307 views)
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Following your own internal compass!
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_______________
"It is said with great pride that I stuck to my guns and didn't allow other people to tell me what to think. I thought for myself and owned my opinion even when it differed from official position."
_______________
I love that story and how you were vindicated in following your own sense of direction! Good for you *hi five*!!
I also think your experience points up that some of this might be due to differences in terminology, between the definition of this word or that from a professional musicology standpoint vs a non-professional standpoint or vs. as you put it, the perspective of an 'advanced fan'. I like that :-).... "Yes, I have a degree in Advanced Fandom."
So we might be dealing with a similar situation here ... I feel that what my ears heard, they recognized as a pattern and the pattern had that slightly menacing Gollum-esque distinction. It might be something so slight that it's not considered a connection from a musicology standpoint, or it might just be a bunch of notes in a minor key that sound like another bunch of notes in a minor key - but somehow there's a similarity. (Now how's that for a totally non-professional summation :-)?
And I have the same regard for Doug as well, this is not an 'I'll show 'em' by any means. It is in fact wanting to honor that original geek tingle I had in watching FOTR that night and suddenly picking up on that foreshadowy feeling of "Gollum". I thought it was so cool to imagine they'd inserted a bit of foreshadowing there ... and if they did, it should be noted and celebrated in that spirit.
So I too hope we hear from some other folks on the board ... we have so many very sensitive fans here, who have such keen eyes and ears for the nuances of the images and sounds in the films. I would love to hear their thoughts as well.
Thanks Magpie .
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Feb 24 2008, 8:45am
Post #4 of 6
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I love this little hint at a theme as well, and I've always been inclined to believe that it is something quite distinct from anything else in LotR (although with a "family resemblance", as you might say). So when you asked your question, I tried to figure out what this little snatch of music seems to be saying to me, and I decided that it reminds me of Bilbo suddenly getting that scary-excited realization that he's about to have an adventure:
"Then something Tookish woke up inside him, and he wished to go and see the great mountains, and hear the pine-trees and the waterfalls, and explore the caves, and wear a sword instead of a walking-stick. He looked out of the window. The stars were out in a dark sky above the trees."
I agree that there's a hint of the creepy and frightening in the phrase that could hint at Gollum and/or the Ring, but I think there's also something quite hopeful about the "Lonely Mountain theme" - the way the notes rise in their minor-key ascent, and never resolve, seems to make the phrase seem open-ended and forward-looking somehow. So I think of this "theme" as being about "setting out on an adventure", which made me decide to compare it to the music that plays as Frodo sets out, and I think I do hear something similar about those humming notes that play as Gandalf gives Frodo his final instructions in the woods of the Shire ("the Enemy has many spies..."). But Frodo's music doesn't have the open-ended hopeful feel to it - Frodo's adventure is darker, and he knows it already.
The other place I think I maybe hear a hint of the "Lonely Mountain" chords is a tiny snatch of music in the EE when Frodo says, "To tell you the truth, Bilbo's been a a bit odd lately. He's taken to locking himself in his study. He spends hours and hours poring over old maps when he thinks I'm not looking."
That's all I can come up with for the moment, anyway! I'll be keeping my ears open in future when I watch the movies - I love a mystery, so thanks for bringing this up!
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Feb 24 2008, 8:46am)
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grammaboodawg
Elvenhome
Feb 25 2008, 5:47pm
Post #5 of 6
(330 views)
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You've got it! That's when I remember hearing the theme again... when Frodo points out how Bilbo has changed. I also agree that it's hopefully a hint of "The Lonely Mountain" Theme we may have fleshed out in The Hobbit. I can't believe Shore hadn't had something in the back of his mind that would tie any future film (which has always seemed inevitable, imho) together to form the complete saga of Middle-earth. That clip of the map scene and Frodo's concern for Bilbo would be perfect, because that picture of the Lonely Mountain and Bilbo becoming distressed/influenced by the Ring and the loss of it (as Gollum did in the mountain) would be a brilliant parallel!
That piece gives me the feeling of the wonder and quiet threat of the Lonely Mountain, Gollum (which I think Gollum/Smeagol's music is fantastic... some of my favourite), and a potential mystery to be faced.
I've been trying to remake that map for myself on homemade parchment, but it's proven to be quite daunting so far. ;)
Thanks FFH! I was wracking my brain trying to recall that connected theme! *massive hug* Now I can sleep ;)
 
Trust him... The Hobbit is coming!
"Barney Snow was here." ~Hug like a hobbit!~ "In my heaven..."
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Loresilme
Doriath
Mar 2 2008, 1:49am
Post #6 of 6
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Yes! And, after all ... if fans created Figwit
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... can we not create The Lonely Mountain Theme :-)?
I really appreciate your perspective on this FFH! I'm glad someone else heard that 'distinct' musical moment here too :-). Although there was something similar about it (to me) to the humming in the beginning of Gollum's Song, I think you are more on target with those two moments you mentioned .... they have a similar flavor to them as well ... the mention of a mystery or a mysterious adventure, and then the beginning of another adventure.
So let's call it The Lonely Mountain Theme ... and hope that we are vindicated in our belief in it by a reappearance of it in The Hobbit!
Loresilme
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