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CathrineB
Nargothrond
Mar 7 2015, 9:07pm
Post #26 of 200
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(Kili just looks slightly peeved when he sees Fili's body, I thought.)
That's what gets me though. They couldn't even afford to give Kili something more?? Aidan's a brilliant actor (Being Human anyone?) so he can handle emotions freaking well. It was one of the things I looked "forward" to in this movie because wow it had to be great, right? But no. Of course not. Instead they have him go straight to fury. Which yeah that's perfect as a follow up after sorrow or horror.
What we got was what I'd expect a reaction to a friend or a Company member he maybe he isn't the closest to - NOT his own damn brother. I mean they clearly went with them being close in the precious film since they're constantly side by side, but here it's suddenly ignored.
It just disappoints me so greatly that a PJ movie would go down to this. Where a forced love story is expected to do better than that of brotherly love. Platonic love is no less strong that romance. It certianly is stronger than that they shoved down our throat there. It doesn't help that Aidan and Dean have great chemistry and they robbed us of that too..
The reason why I have such strong opinions about this is because since I first read the book I adored Fili and Kili. I just really didn't expect them to mess that up since they've usually been so good with brotherhood and friendship in the movies and they mess up this one.
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lionoferebor
Nargothrond
Mar 7 2015, 11:24pm
Post #28 of 200
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The reason why I have such strong opinions about this is because since I first read the book I adored Fili and Kili.
From a movie stand-point I absolutely adore Fili, while Kili...I'll just say I'm not too happy with the character, and leave it at that.
But from a book stand-point I absolutely love both Fili and Kili. So why is it that I love both of them from the book, but only prefer one from the films? Because in the book it was always Fili and Kili, never Fili or Kili. The two were inseparable, and not in the way of cookies and milk but more like chocolate milk. You can separate the cookies from the milk, but you can't separate the chocolate from the milk. It's veritably impossible to prefer one over the other. And up until the movies, I thought, it was impossible to separate the two. Yet PJ and co, miraculously managed to do this...and not very well (to put it nicely).
I just really didn't expect them to mess that up since they've usually been so good with brotherhood and friendship in the movies and they mess up this one.
Especially when you consider the bonds between Frodo and Sam, or Merry and Pippin, or even Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli. All of these friendship were beautifully executed on screen and audiences loved it. Which is why it irks me people would suggest that a romantic storyline is more appealing than a bond between brothers. It was appealing in LOTR, why would not have been appealing in The Hobbit?
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marary
Menegroth
Mar 7 2015, 11:58pm
Post #29 of 200
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Bros before... the other word that rhymes with bros
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There has just *got* to be a cut scene for the EE, something to let us know what's going on with Fili during Thorin's madness. Think about it: When the Lake-town party arrives in Erebor to find mad!Thorin, who is the camera glued to? Fili. Who's expression of horror are we meant to empathize with? Fili's. That scene, at least, very clearly favors Fili over Kili. Like they were setting up something more between Fili and Thorin than never followed through.
While I would have liked some more front and center "brother moments" like the first two films, there are some really wonderful background interactions. Watch Fili in the background as Kili parts with Tauriel, and as the Lake-town four walk up to Erebor. Some very telling stuff! Fili is so focused on Kili, and obviously has his opinions about Kili's actions. It's very cool to watch.
I think Kili's immediate emotional reaction to Fili's death might have been lost to editing for pacing issues and what not. But I totally buy (and adore) that he straight away charges into battle to avenge his brother. If that's not a well-played, Kili-consistent, dramatic testament to their bond as brothers, I don't know what is. And Fili's death is what spurs the Ravenhill battle to its dramatic conclusion, propelling both Kili and Thorin into battle. Thorin and Kili are both very much motivated by Fili in their final battles. While I love how Fili works as a foil for Thorin and Kili here, some more character development earlier in the film would have sold it more.
And if they can give so much screentime to Tauriel's reaction when Kili dies, they should have given as much to Kili when Fili dies. Would have packed a higher emotional punch to Fili's death.*
*Opinon: Fili's death was actually both better staged and better edited than Kili's, and actually stuck with me longer. The execution-style death of a young person whose family looks on in horror was one of the most disturbing things to happen in the film. I was genuinely shocked and horrified. Kili's death had that overwrought slo-mo editing. It made me cringe (and I actually like Kili/Tauriel!). I cared more about Fili in his moment of death than Kili in his moment of death. The power of editing is really something.
(This post was edited by marary on Mar 8 2015, 12:08am)
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CathrineB
Nargothrond
Mar 8 2015, 12:22am
Post #30 of 200
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There has just *got* to be a cut scene for the EE, something to let us know what's going on with Fili during Thorin's madness. Think about it: When the Lake-town party arrives in Erebor to find mad!Thorin, who is the camera glued to? Fili. Who's expression of horror are we meant to empathize with? Fili's. That scene, at least, very clearly favors Fili over Kili. Like they were setting up something more between Fili and Thorin than never followed through.
At this point I'm not even trying to get my hopes up for more Fili in the EE other than maybe that ram-wagon scene. I bet there wont even be any Bilbo and Fili scene that people have spoken about. I do look forward to the EE, but I'm not going to hope for anything only to be disappointed again.
*Opinon: Fili's death was actually both better staged and better edited than Kili's, and actually stuck with me longer. The execution-style death of a young person whose family looks on in horror was one of the most disturbing things to happen in the film. I was genuinely shocked and horrified. Kili's death had that overwrought slo-mo editing. It made me cringe (and I actually like Kili/Tauriel!). I cared more about Fili in his moment of death than Kili in his moment of death. The power of editing is really something.
Actually that's a very popular opinion. I too *liked* Fili's death although I wished it was given more time. Everyone sees it. Thorin and Bilbo (both main characters), Kili and Dwalin. We just get more of a reaction from Bilbo and Thorin than Kili which was rather jawdropping (and yes many say there's no reaction, but I for one enjoy the subtelty of their acting in that scene).
I think Fili's death stood out because it's a downright execution rather than a heroic death which you've seen many times in PJ's movies now. It had a very shocking effect on people.
It's Kili's death that angered me because it was straight up slow-mo cliched fanfic death. Again, did no favor for Kili's character like it was obviously intended.
I mean, have you seen the art of an alternate death for the durins? It was all on them on ice and at one point Azog was working on drowning Kili in the ice water while Fili and Thorin are still there. They seperated Kili from his damn family. That part... that and ignoring Fili in the end is what just uuugh.
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Never_Underestimate_A_Dwarf
Ossiriand
Mar 8 2015, 12:33am
Post #31 of 200
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There has just *got* to be a cut scene for the EE, something to let us know what's going on with Fili during Thorin's madness.
*Opinon: Fili's death was actually both better staged and better edited than Kili's, and actually stuck with me longer. The execution-style death of a young person whose family looks on in horror was one of the most disturbing things to happen in the film. I was genuinely shocked and horrified. Kili's death had that overwrought slo-mo editing. It made me cringe (and I actually like Kili/Tauriel!). I cared more about Fili in his moment of death than Kili in his moment of death. The power of editing is really something.
I'm crossing my fingers for a Fili/Thorin scene in the EE. There has to be something - it's such a loose end.
Kili quickly jumping in to avenge Fili is in character, like you said. But they only needed 10 seconds or so to fit in a reaction and I don't understand why it's not there. If something was cut, I really hope it's added back.
It was the most disturbing scene of the entire trilogy, IMO. I've seen the movie many times but could only stomach watching that part once. I agree that Kili's death is cringeworthy and more than a little cheesy to me. I think he deserved better than that. Fili's death would have been better if they didn't just forget about him after it happened. But it was very suspenseful and shocking, so it did its job in stirring a reaction.
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Menegroth
Mar 8 2015, 12:39am
Post #32 of 200
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I think Fili's death stood out because it's a downright execution rather than a heroic death which you've seen many times in PJ's movies now. It had a very shocking effect on people.
And still Fili is so selfless and heroic under very non-heroic circumstances, using his final words to tell the others to run. And before that he tries to get Kili out of harm's way. And defies Thorin and helps Bilbo escape Erebor. Fili is always thinking of others. I think it's very sweet that he and Kili seem to share this trait of justice and selflessness.
I do look forward to the EE, but I'm not going to hope for anything only to be disappointed again.
Probably a wise approach. I'll try it on for size!
Actually that's a very popular opinion. I too *liked* Fili's death although I wished it was given more time. Everyone sees it. Thorin and Bilbo (both main characters), Kili and Dwalin. We just get more of a reaction from Bilbo and Thorin than Kili which was rather jawdropping (and yes many say there's no reaction, but I for one enjoy the subtelty of their acting in that scene).
Dwalin, Bilbo and Thorin's reactions were amazing. They felt real. They got to me. Then Thorin runs off desperately in search of Kili, realizing his only surviving nephew is the target of Azog. That's some heavy Durin family angst right there. I love that moment. I think it works better for the characters to jump into action. I much prefer it to slo-mo cryfaces (Tauriel, I'm looking at you).
It was the most disturbing scene of the entire trilogy, IMO. I've seen the movie many times but could only stomach watching that part once. I agree that Kili's death is cringeworthy and more than a little cheesy to me. I think he deserved better than that. Fili's death would have been better if they didn't just forget about him after it happened. But it was very suspenseful and shocking, so it did its job in stirring a reaction.
Kili was such a well-developed and delightful character. He did deserve better. I actually liked his interactions with Tauriel; I adored the joyfulness and naivetee with which he pursues a romance with an elf. Because Kili being naive, pure and hopeful is a wonderful trait. That's why we love Kili! He's such a non-internally dark character, no bitterness (so unlike Thorin), and you can really see this at work with Tauriel.
Fili really needed some of the dwarves coming to collect his body and be sad that he died. That's all it would have taken.
Kili dying more connected to Thorin would have been great. Kili dying connected to Tauriel could have worked fantastically, I think... but for some reason, they felt compelled to make it corny. It didn't necessarily have to be by virtue of Tauriel being there.
(This post was edited by marary on Mar 8 2015, 12:52am)
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DisDwarfWoman
Ossiriand
Mar 8 2015, 6:28pm
Post #33 of 200
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Fili really needed some of the dwarves coming to collect his body and be sad that he died. That's all it would have taken.
Could not agree more. This is the only thing I genuinely didn't like about all three movies, just give me that and I'll be fine with whatever else happens.
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Arveldis
Ossiriand
Mar 8 2015, 7:17pm
Post #34 of 200
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He had, what, two lines in that movie?
I think Fili had more than two lines (about four, from what I can remember), but it depends on how you define "line." Most of them were short ("Go!" and "Run!"). The only other ones that I recall were "Stay here and search the lower levels" (not the exact wording) and "I'm going over the wall! Who's with me?" And that's it. Like someone else said, Fili was almost a main character in the previous movies compared to BotFA. 
I thought that too about Kili. He gets this queer expression on his face (why not a little more devastation? surprise? anger? pain? something?) that's almost comparable to Legolas' curious/confused look when Boromir dies. I thought the running off in a rage was a nice touch, and very in-character, but the first part was puzzling. I try to chock it up to the fact that Kili had a lot of emotions running through him at the time, and that it's finally hit home that big brother isn't there for him now; he's on his own for the first time in his life. And he'd just seen Fili alive, and then he's gone. For good. I also think the manner in which Fili died, especially with falling at Kili's feet, shocked him greatly. He probably was having a hard time processing it all.
I think you're absolutely right: PJ and Co. had certain things they wanted in the movie, had a time limit they wanted to keep to, and had to get rid of something. Apparently Fili was considered expendable, as were the rest of the dwarves.  Wait for the EE, I guess. It's becoming the anthem of every disgruntled fan on these boards and across the Internet.
(This post was edited by Arveldis on Mar 8 2015, 7:30pm)
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Arveldis
Ossiriand
Mar 8 2015, 8:03pm
Post #35 of 200
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I will never understand why they found it more important to focus on a scene about Alfrid's slip rather than a scene that would develop Fili's character a little more.
I think less time spent on extra characters/scenes would have helped not just Fili, but the Company as a whole. It's disheartening, to say the least, to see how much time was spent on the dwarves in the first and second movies, and then how little was spent on them in BotFA. In AUJ it seemed the entire spotlight was on this motley crew of dwarves -- the promo material, video blogs, on-screen moments, etc. -- and then they disappeared almost completely in BotFA.
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Menegroth
Mar 8 2015, 8:05pm
Post #36 of 200
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an alternate interpretation of Kili's reaction
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I thought that too about Kili. He gets this queer expression on his face (why not a little more devastation? surprise? anger? pain? something?) that's almost comparable to Legolas' curious/confused look when Boromir dies. I thought the running off in a rage was a nice touch, and very in-character, but the first part was puzzling. I try to chock it up to the fact that Kili had a lot of emotions running through him at the time, and that it's finally hit home that big brother isn't there for him now; he's on his own for the first time in his life. And he'd just seen Fili alive, and then he's gone. For good. I also think the manner in which Fili died, especially with falling at Kili's feet, shocked him greatly. He probably was having a hard time processing it all.
I chalk that up to a bit of processing as well. Has he ever seen Fili that helpless before? It would take him a few seconds for the dread of what's actually happening to fully sink in. Thorin is immediately horrified- it's a very parental reaction, which makes sense. In contrast, Kili just doesn't quite "get it" at first. I don't think Kili would entirely think of his protective older brother as capable of actually dying.
When he looks up, it's actually almost the exact same expression as when the eagles carry away unconscious Thorin and when Fili and Kili are separated on the stone giants. But watch his face when Fili falls. He actually is in utter wide-eyed horror. It's only a split second, unfortunately, but it's there. (Aiden Turner is a wonderfully expressive actor!) By the time the frame comes back to Kili, he's already going into rage/Ki-Leeroy Jenkins mode (which made sense). Everything they needed was there-- a few more split seconds of Kili pre-rage mode would have gone so far in selling the brothers' story. Again, a lot comes down to editing! The actors gave them plenty to work with.
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Avandel
Gondolin
Mar 8 2015, 8:39pm
Post #37 of 200
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PJ and Co. had certain things they wanted in the movie, had a time limit they wanted to keep to, and had to get rid of something. Apparently Fili was considered expendable, as were the rest of the dwarves. Wait for the EE, I guess. It's becoming the anthem of every disgruntled fan on these boards and across the Internet.
Oh, I think it was more than just the time limit, I think the interpretation that if you have LOTS of characters, and LOTS of events that have to be brought to climatic points, you have to "triage" the story lines and characters to some degree. That there needs to be points of primary focus for the audience to follow.
But. For one thing, as someone had posted on the board, the dwarf company - even tho they are individuals - also functions as a kind of self-contained entity - and we "know" all of them, know who usually is considered a more "primary" character, or not. So I don't think, as in AUJ and DOS, where each dwarf was focused on, or had a line, confused anyone in the audience.
And I watched the posted PJ interview with Philippa. I suppose I am being too sensitive, but it was disturbing to me, after the fact, that what PJ and Philippa talk about is Bilbo's arc, Thorin's arc (obviously) and LEGOLAS and LOTR again.
*Rant*
I just wanted to shriek at them, I really did . Because I. DON'T. GET. why, having assembled such a stunning cast, WHY, these folks having done two wonderful movies with these wonderful dwarves (and Beorn, for that matter) suddenly seem to have been fixated on the PAST.
I wanted to lose it - "who cares about LOTR? why can't you care about what's in FRONT of you - you might as well have cast the dwarves right off the street from the local food market, for all the difference it made in the end?"
"That if you had stuck to your knitting and taken care of the dwarves, in the PRESENT, and not been so concerned about the Legolas rehash and some cursory romance, you might have gotten some more little gold statues?"
*End rant* Well, that's a bit extreme, but maybe not so much. For one thing, I don't know if there's any way to quantify whether constantly banging us in the head with LOTR tie-ins, or Legolas, or this Kili/Tauriel thing was a success, or not.
But for sure, I re-watched AUJ last night. Thoroughly enjoyed it, but at the same time, watching it really brought home why I was so shell-shocked re Fili and the rest of the dwarves in BOFA. If you have seen both AUJ and BOFA within a short time frame, it really seems to accentuate how much was lost in BOFA, and it's unpleasant.
But based on that interview, and I figure if PJ had cared about Fili etc. in the first place he wouldn't have edited BOFA the way he did - I just personally don't have a lot of hope for the EE. I just feel so bad about the wonderful dwarf actors, and all the early fuss in AUJ, and all the work they did - and bad for the fans, as actors of Ken Stott's ability should NEVER have been sidelined in favor of worrying about Alfrid (with all due respect to Ryan Gage who is wonderful IMO).
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dormouse
Gondolin
Mar 8 2015, 11:14pm
Post #38 of 200
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I don't think Ken Stott was sidelined, Avandel, I really don't....
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He shone in every scene he was in and his moments are among the most memorable. Thorin apart, he's the dwarf most people name as their favourite.
It's just the final film that was cut very tightly - too tightly, I think - what happened there was pretty much what happened with Return of the King. With so many characters and so many storylines they decided to home in on Bilbo - to bring it back, in the end, to where it all began - just as Return homed in on Frodo. They bought the time to show Bilbo's journey home, his homecoming and the final moments by losing some of the other storylines.
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Menegroth
Mar 8 2015, 11:22pm
Post #39 of 200
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How many times did they play Fili-the-Walking-Arsenal as a (hilarious) gag? Where was the payoff for that?? He should have had something like eighteen daggers up his sleeve. That's enough to get away from Azog.
My ridiculous wish for EE: Lengthy shot of Fili in Erebor's arsenal acting like a kid in a candy shop.
(This post was edited by marary on Mar 8 2015, 11:27pm)
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Arveldis
Ossiriand
Mar 9 2015, 12:24am
Post #41 of 200
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trying to be nice. Er, nice-ish. 
Oh, I think it was more than just the time limit...
I agree.
So I don't think, as in AUJ and DOS, where each dwarf was focused on, or had a line, confused anyone in the audience.
No, but the fact that the dwarves vanished and reappeared with no segue probably did. They sallied out onto the battlefield; somehow survived the hordes of orcs, trolls, and every other monster imaginable; and then later made it up to Ravenhill, none of which is shown. Heck, with everything happening at Ravenhill, I almost forgot there was a battle occurring down below, and that Thorin, Fili, Kili, and Dwalin weren't the only ones fighting for their lives.
In an earlier interview with PJ (posted on TORn), it was said that PJ likes to make his battles human and not forget the impact they have on the characters, but still give the scope and vastness of the battle. But I didn't see that. I saw skirmishes here, there, and everywhere. Yes, the battlefield looked vast, and I could tell that fighting was happening nearly everywhere, but it lacked a feeling of unity and comprehensiveness. It was disjointed.
For one thing, I don't know if there's any way to quantify whether constantly banging us in the head with LOTR tie-ins, or Legolas, or this Kili/Tauriel thing was a success, or not.
Whatever other people think, I believe that's where this movie fell. They spent too much time trying to make it funny so that the audience wouldn't leave with terminal depression; too much time trying to tie everything back to LotR ("His name is Strider"); and too much time trying to appeal to the masses (i.e. love story and Alfrid). Then again, I am a purist and inclined to get squeamish/negative over changes.
Whatever the reason -- or reasons -- were for all of this, I sincerely hope that the EE gives us the movie we thought we were receiving.
(This post was edited by Arveldis on Mar 9 2015, 12:28am)
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Avandel
Gondolin
Mar 9 2015, 2:37am
Post #44 of 200
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It's just the final film that was cut very tightly - too tightly, I think - what happened there was pretty much what happened with Return of the King. With so many characters and so many storylines they decided to home in on Bilbo - to bring it back, in the end, to where it all began - just as Return homed in on Frodo.
Always wise words! I hadn't thought of it that way, as to me LOTR seems so lavish, with much time given to many story lines (and yes, I care about LOTR *grins* I still fret over some things and it has been YEARS now...)
And the video made me feel kind of bad - e.g., maybe I am fretting too much, but I didn't hear what I wanted/hoped to hear - of course, I really don't know when that was taped, and PJ and Philippa seemed weary or jet lagged, to me. Which is their business and I imagine I would be too, but.
I didn't hear a lot of raging enthusiasm, more like "we [the audience] are seeing stuff that was shot 4 years ago...e.g., for PJ & co., he sounds, mentally, like someone moving on, and as much said so re other projects. Not people that are bubbling over at once last chance (kinda) to really craft an exquisite Extended Edition.
But again, I have to mentally kick myself - but for this director, there wouldn't BE this Bilbo, this Thorin, this Balin. And no-one can say that PJ doesn't work like mad - whether I personally am happy with the end product.
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Avandel
Gondolin
Mar 9 2015, 2:55am
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Because we're fans, by default we care, and by default we PAY$$$$. Plus, IMO there was no reason on earth to doubt or question or assume from AUJ that certain stories would be told, and cared for, by PJ & co. Heck, even Orlando Bloom, to his credit, has been reserved both about coming back, and commenting about being back.
I personally get the impression by OB - to his credit - that he was willing, but has a more balanced attitude than PJ does about it!
Anyway *snort* ROFLOL :
Heck, with everything happening at Ravenhill, I almost forgot there was a battle occurring down below, and that Thorin, Fili, Kili, and Dwalin weren't the only ones fighting for their lives.
Well, yes, and I imagine Thranduil headed over to Hilda Bianca for some milk and cookies and to bemoan "how sharper than a serpent's tooth is a thankless child" e.g. to me it still seems supremely illogical that Thranduil would let his only son trot off to face an entire army and creatures like Bolg and Azog - as in, what were the Elven King and his army doing?
So, after a light snack, Lee Pace shows up to gracefully force his way through some of the er, less compelling parts of the film. (But he looks awesome!)
But I digress/OT. Totally agree with:
They spent too much time trying to make it funny so that the audience wouldn't leave with terminal depression; too much time trying to tie everything back to LotR ("His name is Strider"); and too much time trying to appeal to the masses (i.e. love story and Alfrid).
That's what I feel about "sticking to your knitting" - and less is more. Plus, trying to either be funny with this material was bad timing at the end, and it wasn't funny or even novel - it was inappropriate and jarring. Maybe that's what the fast pace was supposed to do, keep things moving so rapidly no-one has time to despair. But from the dead silence in my theaters at the audience THAT sure didn't work, if that was the case.
PS. And IMO that thing w. "Strider" wasn't horrible - but felt forced, tho. Oh, well, no-one can make me watch anything 
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lionoferebor
Nargothrond
Mar 9 2015, 4:13am
Post #46 of 200
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How many times did they play Fili-the-Walking-Arsenal as a (hilarious) gag? Where was the payoff for that?? He should have had something like eighteen daggers up his sleeve. That's enough to get away from Azog.
True it may have been enough to get away from Azog...but it wasn't just Azog. Unfortunately we never see what exactly happens in the tunnel. We know he's surrounded - on three sides - but aside from that we don't know the details behind how he was caught. I think (and this is just speculation) that he did put up a fight, but was quickly overwhelmed by Azog and his minions who stripped him of his weapons. But again we never actually see what happens and like many things with BOFA we're left baffled by this moment - or lack thereof.
My ridiculous wish for EE: Lengthy shot of Fili in Erebor's arsenal acting like a kid in a candy shop.
ROFLOL! This would be great.
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Avandel
Gondolin
Mar 9 2015, 4:59am
Post #47 of 200
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E.g., re the "weird decisions" that came through. I'm baffled by so many things; by PJ's CGI enthusiasm re the posted interview (I had just re-seen Braveheart and marveled at the number of horses and fighters). CGI has its place, but meh.
And obviously BOFA' s focus. Only thing I can think of, there's no-one on set to tell PJ and company that something is lame, e.g. tunnel vision of a kind. Or maybe they figure they will never please everyone, so they are just going to do what they want to do.
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Menegroth
Mar 9 2015, 7:17am
Post #48 of 200
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E.g., re the "weird decisions" that came through. I'm baffled by so many things; by PJ's CGI enthusiasm re the posted interview (I had just re-seen Braveheart and marveled at the number of horses and fighters). CGI has its place, but meh.
After watching BOTFA, I actually also rewatched Braveheart and was stunned by how good the battle scenes were. Very low tech and old school, and very intense. Well stage, progressed with dramatic intensity, and had an excellent balance of scope and individual character focus. It was easy to follow, and it gets you invested
The LOTR trilogy had remarkably well-crafted battles in this vein, albeit with a bit more hi-tech magic than Braveheart. But this shows you how much CGI is just icing on the cake to good structure and direction. The important elements to show scope, individuals, and make it "real" for the audience were all there in Braveheart, AND in the LOTR battles.
The the Battle of Five Armies, was, well, a mess. And I don't think it had anything to do with the positively unwieldy number of armies to choreograph. It just didn't build tension or suck you in.
It definitely did improve when they changed the focus to Ravenhill (with a few really jarring missteps. Thanks, Legolas.)
(This post was edited by marary on Mar 9 2015, 7:19am)
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Menegroth
Mar 9 2015, 7:39am
Post #49 of 200
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True it may have been enough to get away from Azog...but it wasn't just Azog. Unfortunately we never see what exactly happens in the tunnel. We know he's surrounded - on three sides - but aside from that we don't know the details behind how he was caught. I think (and this is just speculation) that he did put up a fight, but was quickly overwhelmed by Azog and his minions who stripped him of his weapons. But again we never actually see what happens and like many things with BOFA we're left baffled by this moment - or lack thereof.
As bad as I wanted Fili to not die, he was so overwhelmed and outnumbered that he really didn't stand a chance, even the the orcs didn't manage to *fully* disarm him.
I wonder if they shot that sequence of Fili fighting the orcs. The geek in me would love to see it, but the film-nerd says that it worked to leave the audience in suspense for the scary reveal when Fili is dragged out to the ledge.
On further reflection re: Kili's reaction (or lack thereof), I remember the first time I saw the movie. The shot of Kili having to *jump bacK* to avoid being crushed by his brother's unceremoniously disposed of body was, well, pretty harsh and raw and really got to me. We're used to seeing drawn-out close-ups of character's reactions, and we get a few of those when Fili dies even. But there is some genius to that brutal image of Kili having to jump back from Fili's dead body. I'm so glad they did it this way, even though I would have loved to see more of Kili's face. I'm not saying it would be impossible to have both, thought!
(This post was edited by marary on Mar 9 2015, 7:46am)
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dormouse
Gondolin
Mar 9 2015, 10:31am
Post #50 of 200
(5758 views)
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Again, I think the enthusiasm is there, despite the obvious tiredness....
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They talk - and have talked in the past - with such enthusiasm about BOTFA as the best film that they must be disappointed at the way it has been received in some quarters - though the excellent press reviews and box office will be a consolation.... I really feel for them just as people, because when you put a lot into a creative project like this you really want a good response. You want people to like what you do.
But I don't think you need worry about the EE. They are working on it - I read that John Howe went back to New Zealand a few weeks ago to do some work on it, and he won't be alone. And having come so far and given so much to Middle Earth, I'm betting that they'll care very much about this last release.
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