It definitely did improve when they changed the focus to Ravenhill (with a few really jarring missteps. Thanks, Legolas.)

I wonder if they shot that sequence of Fili fighting the orcs. The geek in me would love to see it, but the film-nerd says that it worked to leave the audience in suspense for the scary reveal when Fili is dragged out to the ledge.

On further reflection re: Kili's reaction (or lack thereof), I remember the first time I saw the movie. The shot of Kili having to *jump bacK* to avoid being crushed by his brother's unceremoniously disposed of body was, well, pretty harsh and raw and really got to me. We're used to seeing drawn-out close-ups of character's reactions, and we get a few of those when Fili dies even. But there is some genius to that brutal image of Kili having to jump back from Fili's dead body. I'm so glad they did it this way, even though I would have loved to see more of Kili's face. I'm not saying it would be impossible to have both, thought!

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As bad as I wanted Fili to not die, he was so overwhelmed and outnumbered that he really didn't stand a chance, even the the orcs didn't manage to *fully* disarm him.

I wonder if they shot that sequence of Fili fighting the orcs. The geek in me would love to see it, but the film-nerd says that it worked to leave the audience in suspense for the scary reveal when Fili is dragged out to the ledge.

On further reflection re: Kili's reaction (or lack thereof), I remember the first time I saw the movie. The shot of Kili having to *jump bacK* to avoid being crushed by his brother's unceremoniously disposed of body was, well, pretty harsh and raw and really got to me. We're used to seeing drawn-out close-ups of character's reactions, and we get a few of those when Fili dies even. But there is some genius to that brutal image of Kili having to jump back from Fili's dead body. I'm so glad they did it this way, even though I would have loved to see more of Kili's face. I'm not saying it would be impossible to have both, thought!

I would also have liked it better if I'd seen Fili put up a fight of some kind, I realize those were some pretty tight spaces so probably not much he could do, but taking out one or two Orcs before being overwhelmed would have been nice. I don't know if anything like that was even filmed, but I have a dredful fear that in the EE Fili may be decapitated. I've read that was the original plan, and I saw an interview with Peter where he explained that they had to hold back on the violence to keep the PG13 rating, but they could show more in the EE. I have to say right now that I would NOT want to see that, his death is fine the way it is (as far as that sort of thing goes).

I really really really really dislike people shouting "NOOO!" when someone dies in a film. It would have ruined Fili's death for me if Thorin had pulled another "NOOO!" (as when Thror is beheaded).

I really really really really dislike people shouting "NOOO!" when someone dies in a film. It would have ruined Fili's death for me if Thorin had pulled another "NOOO!" (as when Thror is beheaded).

Here's what might have worked for Kili: Remember in Boromir's last stand, it sort of goes into slow motion and Boromir realizes the hopelessness of his situation. That was excellent use of slow motion. It doesn't mess with the timing of the currently occurring battle, but it gives us a tragic moment to be with Boromir as he goes out in a most noble fashion. Or when Haldir is killed in Helms Deep and looks at the dead elves before he, too, dies. Some strategic slow motion for Kili's stunned reaction and better-timed progression into his subsequent rage would have been fabulous*. And we *know* they can edit slo-mo reactions well. It's a shame it wasn't used here.

*Now that I think about it, this is exactly what Tauriel got for Kili. They lingered a bit too long on her tortured reaction, IMHO, but the slo-mo progression into rage-face and throwing Bolg of the ledge actually looked great (editing/pacing/acting wise).

...that at least no one said the words "nervous system" in these films. There is that. We must be grateful.

That said, Legolas's antics turn from jarring to absolutely hysterical if you turn down the volume and watch to either the Chariots of Fire theme or the original Batman theme (when he commandeers a war bat).

It would take two things, really, to vastly fill out Fili's narrative to a point where I'd be satisfied:
-At least one line in Erebor that shows us how Fili is dealing with his uncle's madness and/or responsibility as the next-in-line
-Somebody actually grieving over Fili! (If not on Ravenhill, a funeral scene including Fili has been confirmed)

That's it! Two small things. Maybe it's not so crazy to hope for that in the EE, after all!

Considering this I have to wonder if removing the slo-mo would have really improved Kili's death scene.

Either do it right or don't do it at all.

One does not simply shut up about Fili

(seriously, quite telling that I'm still stuck on that [Fili's] death)

It would take two things, really, to vastly fill out Fili's narrative to a point where I'd be satisfied:
-At least one line in Erebor that shows us how Fili is dealing with his uncle's madness and/or responsibility as the next-in-line
-Somebody actually grieving over Fili! (If not on Ravenhill, a funeral scene including Fili has been confirmed)

...to me it still seems supremely illogical that Thranduil would let his only son trot off to face an entire army and creatures like Bolg and Azog - as in, what were the Elven King and his army doing?

IMO that thing w. "Strider" wasn't horrible - but felt forced, tho. Oh, well, no-one can make me watch anything

I'm desperately wishing that some sort of scene, whether it's Fili talking to Thorin (redundant after the Kili and Dwalin scenes, though) or Fili confiding in someone else (maybe that's the cut scene he had with Bilbo), is shown of Fili expressing concern over Thorin's madness. I can't believe that PJ and Co. expect us to believe that Fili would stand off to the side and do nothing as his uncle spirals downwards in madness.

Someone did propose the idea that the reason Dwalin was so glaringly absent from the rest of the fighting at Ravenhill was because he was busy guarding Fili's body. I like to think that that's what happened, but I do wish that someone had been shown exhibiting a little bit of grief over Fili's body after his death. EE, I'm counting on you.

The trilogy had a romantic subplot in Aragorn/Arwen/Eowyn.
Part of the film business is marketing, and a good portion of people aren't Tolkien purists and like a romantic subplot.
Did I hate it? No. Regardless of the circumstances, the opportunity to experience JRR Tolkien's Middle-Earth is great all by itself.
Was it executed poorly? Yeah, in my opinion. The Tauriel/Kili thing was rather odd, but it got people talking.

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I love Aragorn and Arwen, as a matter of fact they are my one-true-pairing. But the difference between the Aragorn/Arwen subplot and the Kili/Tauriel subplot is the former was more of a side-story where the latter was actually intertwined into the main story. The A/A subplot can easily be removed from the film and not have a major effective on the structure of the story. Whereas removing the K/T story would require some revision.

More than this the A/A relationship did not damper Aragorn's and Arwen's relationship with other characters in the film. Nor did it result in other characters being sidelined like we saw in The Hobbit, especially BOTFA. (Yes I know Arwen replaced Glorfindel, but unfortunately he was never in the films to start with so he was never really sidelined).

On the other hand the K/T relationship practically diminished Fili/Kili relationship, as well as Fili's relationship to Thorin, and was one of several factors that resulted in characters (other than Fili) being sidelined. For myself, this is my biggest gripe about the K/T subplot. Had it been executed like the A/A subplot - not overshadowing other relationships and sidelining characters - I would probably be on board with it.

Here's another reading of what's going on with Fili: Kili is the youngest. He doesn't have the burden of potential leadership. He can more easily and openly defy Thorin, and does. Fili's role as the oldest and first-in-line means that while he doesn't like what's going on, he can't be as bombastic about his opinion. This plays wonderfully when he resists Thorin. He doesn't strike Thorin or shout at him... he just pulls away and steps back. And *very* subtly pushes Bilbo away from Thorin before retaking his place at Thorin's side.

One weird thing I noticed while watching with my Fili-goggles on: In the scene where Kili yells at Thorin, take a look at Fili. First, he stands up right after Kili and looks on as Kili shouts. When Thorin says "will you follow me one last time?" the other dwarves stand up slowly or lift their weapons, Fili is already standing, but he's a bit... impassive. No reaction like the others. Actually, he looks kind of angry! Wonder what was going on there...

Someone did propose the idea that the reason Dwalin was so glaringly absent from the rest of the fighting at Ravenhill was because he was busy guarding Fili's body. I like to think that that's what happened, but I do wish that someone had been shown exhibiting a little bit of grief over Fili's body after his death. EE, I'm counting on you.

I would love to see Dwalin find Fili's body during the aftermath. But guarding his body while Thorin and Kili are in danger? I'd hope not! Thorin and Kili are in danger- why would he guard someone already dead? You see him run after Thorin after all... more plausible that he's waylaid by orcs after this, we just don't see his combat bits.

Possibly he's the dwarf that told Tauriel that they would need to bury him.

I've never noticed, I'll have to watch for this. Though it may be Fili's still not happy with his uncle for trying to throw Bilbo over the wall.