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marary
Menegroth
Mar 10 2015, 4:21pm
Post #76 of 200
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Thorin abandons Kili in Lake-town on the basis that Kili's in too bad a state to continue on the quest... and he doesn't even order anyone to stay behind with him? What did he expect Kili, who can barely stay on his feet at this point, to do on his own in a strange place? Um, great guardianship, Thorin.
Good thing Oin felt his duty as the company's medic, Fili as his brother, and that Bofur slept in. Otherwise, Kili would be totally abandoned! Fili's initial resentment was over denying Kili the ability to complete the quest, and then that Thorin expects him to leave a sick Kili behind to fend for himself... I can see it turning to a bit of outrage that Thorin would seemingly care so little about Kili's well-being. I mean, wow. Thorin, really!
The next time Fili sees Thorin after Kili's illness and Smaug's rampage, there's not so much as a "Yay! Glad to see my beloved nephews are alive!". Thorin is more obsessed with the treasure; he *should* be running to greet them and be relieved that they survived Smaug! And apologizing like crazy.
So yes. Actually quite a bit that wasn't resolved between the two! Quite tragic, really.
ETA: The Lake-town four arriving in Erebor to find Thorin scene *really* echoes the scene from AUJ where Thror goes gold-crazy, and young-Thorin looks on from above, troubled. Fili is standing in young-Thorin's place, with a similar expression, with old-Thorin standing in Thror's. I'm betting that staging and character parallel was intentional. :) And I'm very glad Fili got the focus there. It speaks volumes to Fili's relationship with Thorin, really, if you put parallel it with the Thorin-Thror scene, which must have been intended.
(This post was edited by marary on Mar 10 2015, 4:35pm)
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Elanor of Rohan
Menegroth
Mar 10 2015, 6:41pm
Post #77 of 200
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First of all, I have noticed that every two or three weeks threads about Fili (and his lack of screen time or his being overlooked or sidelined) pop up. He really, even if slowly, has become a firm favourite among fans.
Fili welcomes Thorin's coming back to his senses with the dignity and pride of a Crown Prince. He has no need to pledge his loyalty to Thorin because he is on the same level as him: he is Royalty. And he had probably started questioning his uncle's decisions way back in Laketown. Pity they did not show Fili's personal journey.
As far as the EE is concerned unfortunately I have stopped thinking about scenes that could fix Fili's storyline. Pj (and probably WB as well) did not invest much in him for varioous reasons, and it will probably stays the same in the EE.
I'm sure a funeral scene will be included, but nothing more.
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Avandel
Gondolin
Mar 10 2015, 8:10pm
Post #78 of 200
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I'd go farther than that re Fili and the dwarves
[In reply to]
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He really, even if slowly, has become a firm favourite among fans.
I think the appealing Fili - and as a spokesperson the appealing Dean O'Gorman - was a noticeable fan favorite, and considered a "primary" dwarf in the group, from the beginning .
Even the promo materials, the brothers, often together....
I agree with your post - alas, while I dreaded BOFA in its way, I remember looking back, especially after the trailer "everything I did, I did for them..." which between Fili in DOS, and I think not unrealistic expectations , there'd be some interaction with Thorin and Fili. Thorin mentions "Bard the dragonslayer"...we will probably never see it, but IMO it would have been Fili, most logically, that told Thorin everything that happened at Laketown.
Which would have been a nice character moment for both, IMO, Thorin flicking back and forth between sane/not-sane; Fili reeling from dealing with a "homecoming" of a kind he never expected, a nice chance to see Fili feeling supportive of Thorin but troubled. But nooooooooooooooooo.
Yep, from the PR, it's kind of logical to think Fili would have had more "lavish" treatment in BOFA....
MO, tho it does feel to me that it didn't start out that way re scenes that were evidently filmed; but at some point, decisions were made that would shift the focus from the dwarves (except Thorin and Kili) and to other stuff that more than likely I will be skipping fairly often , instead of re-watching the imagined scenes I had of the Durins interacting.
And I'm just gonna say it, that will include the time lost to chatting about Legolas' mother, among other things.
Who I suspect is alive and well , and simply "saw her chance and took it" because
it was boring in Mirkwood, and it's more fun being a shieldmaiden. 
As far as the EE is concerned unfortunately I have stopped thinking about scenes that could fix Fili's storyline. Pj (and probably WB as well) did not invest much in him for varioous reasons, and it will probably stays the same in the EE.
I'm sure a funeral scene will be included, but nothing more.
*Sigh* - Agree. Because I don't think PJ, although he has talked about characters and so on, is necessarily as interested in characters as he is "about pushing a story forward." Of course, folks don't want a film or book bogged down e.g. Robert Jordan.
But there's something to be said, about providing enough color so you believe in something, and feel it. Bilbo describes Thorin as his friend, but IMO it's only to the great skill of the actors that we feel that, because we never get a scene with them just being friends - I think the DOS EE interaction on the slopes with Thorin telling Bilbo that "they are making good time" is the closest I've seen to something like that. And the BOFA acorn scene of course.
And then there was PJ deciding not completing the Thranduil/dwarf scene in DOS e.g. "you just want to get them in the cells". PJ seemed to be oblivious (even tho he said it was great stuff) to the delight fans would have over that character interaction.
The color and detail of that.
So if PJ had, IMO, thought providing more details and lines, and so forth, in the end, was important re BOFA, I think we would have known that with the TE. Heck, I think just derailing one of the significant tragedies re canon speaks volumes. It's almost as tho he figured, OK, everyone knows Fili and Kili are close by now, so I'm not gonna bother with that any more - e.g., Fili.
Aside from the funeral, and supposedly more Beorn, *shrug*. *Heavy sigh* I will miss the excitement I felt over the release of the DOS EE - but ah, well, guess I have the WETA books to look forward to (don't have the most recent one, and I hoping another lavish book is released so I can get a BOFA pair).
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Avandel
Gondolin
Mar 10 2015, 8:48pm
Post #79 of 200
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There's been posts on Thorin/Kili before...
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but, beg to differ...
Thorin abandons Kili in Lake-town on the basis that Kili's in too bad a state to continue on the quest... and he doesn't even order anyone to stay behind with him? What did he expect Kili, who can barely stay on his feet at this point, to do on his own in a strange place? Um, great guardianship, Thorin.
Good thing Oin felt his duty as the company's medic, Fili as his brother, and that Bofur slept in. Otherwise, Kili would be totally abandoned! Fili's initial resentment was over denying Kili the ability to complete the quest, and then that Thorin expects him to leave a sick Kili behind to fend for himself... I can see it turning to a bit of outrage that Thorin would seemingly care so little about Kili's well-being. I mean, wow. Thorin, really!
Just sayin', as godlike as Thorin is, I don't think he's like "Alien's" or Star Wars' robot X-ray scanners; e.g., it's not that ANYONE thinks Kili can't continue, at the dock - it's that Kili would slow them down. Again, these are tough little dwarves, and Kili has 1) been up on his feet; 2) evidently partied all night with everyone else; 3) probably Thorin, Dwalin, and a few others have been arrow-shot before, and to some degree with dwarves that kind of injury is probably something you just "man up" over;
and 4) since Thorin had Kili helping rob the armory and Kili has been covering up his injury (even when Thorin asks if Kili is all right) - until Kili falls and gets everyone arrested that Thorin knows that Kili has been hiding that he's in some pain. Also 5) I imagine the experience war-veteran Dwalin would have said "Hey, Thorin, that wound looks kind of bad, do you really think we should leave him....and so on.
Er, as far as "Kili being totally abandoned" - um - there's nothing that I can see in the films that indicates that Thorin doesn't view these nephews as adults - they are his best scouts and fighters. Not to mention Kili is arguing with Thorin when Thorin leaves - so one could assume this adult could kick back in a town for a few days while his leg healed up. If Kili had collapsed with Thorin present, it would have been illogical for Thorin not to order someone to stay with Kili - as we see re Bombur in Mirkwood, where Bobmbur is carried - no one gets just "left" by Thorin.
The next time Fili sees Thorin after Kili's illness and Smaug's rampage, there's not so much as a "Yay! Glad to see my beloved nephews are alive!". Thorin is more obsessed with the treasure; he *should* be running to greet them and be relieved that they survived Smaug!
Well, er, yes. That's the creeping horror of Thorin's dragon-sickness, which I think we see in the expressions of the dwarves, staring down, watching Thorin. Thorin's behavior is inherently WRONG. It interests me that Bilbo tries to stop Fili and there's this look on Bilbo's face, watching with them, that Bilbo really didn't want these guys to see Thorin like this, and Bilbo is really troubled.
But. "Everything I did, I did for them" and as BOFA opens, Thorin is staring and staring - I think Thorin had been crying, and that scene was cut, and so the TE version of the BOFA we get a Thorin who only has the "seduction" of gold left, at that point *sob* and by the time Fili and Kili arrive, it's too late. In any case, tho nothing was planned, Thorin saved Kili by having him stay behind, because Kili might have died in Laketown, but for sure he would have died on the slopes of Erebor, trying to hike in.
Unless Gandalf made an appearance. Anyway, being dwarves, I haven't seen anything re Kili's injuries and Fili's feelings about Thorin carrying on that would cause Fili to have an issue. If anything, when the party arrive at Erebor it seems to me they are afraid that none of Thorin and co. are alive. I WOULD see Fili being troubled tho, about Thorin being so hostile to Bard and elves in general, after Kili is taken in and saved.
Except a conversation like that between Thorin and Fili doesn't happen, and all we get is Kili *sigh* going on about the people of Laketown losing everything, which in hindsight to me probably wasn't the best move, considering what has happened to Thorin's people - who also lost everything. Whoops.
ETA: The Lake-town four arriving in Erebor to find Thorin scene *really* echoes the scene from AUJ where Thror goes gold-crazy, and young-Thorin looks on from above, troubled. Fili is standing in young-Thorin's place, with a similar expression, with old-Thorin standing in Thror's. I'm betting that staging and character parallel was intentional. :) And I'm very glad Fili got the focus there. It speaks volumes to Fili's relationship with Thorin, really, if you put parallel it with the Thorin-Thror scene, which must have been intended. Yes, I think so. Tho it's nice the AUJ scene wasn't just duplicated for effect.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Doriath
Mar 10 2015, 9:04pm
Post #80 of 200
(5182 views)
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----------quote----------
And I'm just gonna say it, that will include the time lost to chatting about Legolas' mother, among other things.
Who I suspect is alive and well, and simply "saw her chance and took it" because
it was boring in Mirkwood, and it's more fun being a shieldmaiden.
------end quote-----
LOL - an Heirs of Durin shieldmaiden at that, sign ME up!!!
Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!
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Never_Underestimate_A_Dwarf
Ossiriand
Mar 10 2015, 9:28pm
Post #81 of 200
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First of all, I have noticed that every two or three weeks threads about Fili (and his lack of screen time or his being overlooked or sidelined) pop up. He really, even if slowly, has become a firm favourite among fans.
Fili was always my favorite and I'm glad others are noticing how awesome the character is (or could have been...we seem to be good at filling in the blanks and coming up with our desired outcomes).
Like everyone else, I'm not really hopeful about the EE but even one extra minute of Fili would be very welcome. It's not going to fix everything, but it will be nice to see, especially for us long suffering fans.
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CathrineB
Nargothrond
Mar 10 2015, 10:04pm
Post #83 of 200
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I mean going by the promos alone there's no wonder why many went to the movie expecting Fili to have a reasonable amount of screentime. I mean come on he's on multiple promos with Thorin and Kili still afterall. Which is why I don't think he's quite "just another one of the background dwarves". It's just that... he's given more attention in the damn promo posters than of actual clips 
You know what I would have loved? And heck, expected? You had Richard talk about Fili and Kili in AUJ extras where he says something along the lines of him being thougher on Fili since he's the heir and is being groomed to become King one day. Yeah...? Well? How about showing us this? One scene of Thorin mentioning one day he'll be King is supposed to be enough?? There's a damn storyline right there!
Also can I have a moment to just gush over Fili's costume in BotfA? I mean the main one, the one he wears the most (and dies in). And the one people compare to Boromir's lol. It's so gorgeous! I mean wow. He looked truly like a crown prince in that one. I love te costume work there. Next to Thorin he's easily the best dressed isn't it? Hench his status. I love that.
Look at the purdy XD
It's a good look.
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marary
Menegroth
Mar 10 2015, 10:39pm
Post #84 of 200
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You know what I would have loved? And heck, expected? You had Richard talk about Fili and Kili in AUJ extras where he says something along the lines of him being thougher on Fili since he's the heir and is being groomed to become King one day. Yeah...? Well? How about showing us this? One scene of Thorin mentioning one day he'll be King is supposed to be enough?? There's a damn storyline right there!
It *is* shown, though. Everything about Fili's more reserved behavior to his jumping into leadership mode a few times (Kili never does this) speaks to this. I quite like the subtlety. I didn't come into BOFA as a Hobbit film geek. I had only seen AUJ and DOS once, a year apart, so I didn't spend a lot of time chilling with these characters in fandom and rewatches to build up expectations (dangerous things, they are). But in my "casual viewer" experience of BOFA, those bonds, statuses and relationships actually did come through to remarkable affect. My point is: the actors' understanding of the backstory/relationships does have a tremendous effect, without needing to be explicit to transmit that understanding to the audience.
So when Fili dies, I wasn't like "oh, that random dwarf #2 got stabbed, that's kinda sad". It actually really was a "whoa" moment. Even though you don't get much solo-Fili in BOFA, you have a strong sense of who he is as an heir and older brother (even when not remembering much of AUJ and DOS!). Even as a casual viewer, I left the theater feeling most affected by the death of brave Fili who sent his brother to safety, got caught and died horribly. Only from *there* I went onto being upset that no one mourned over him! But there was quite a lot of charisma going on there to get me invested in him during the final film.
That's some film magic. I'm actually coming to appreciate (dare I say it) how subtle some of Fili's story/character is expressed.
(It's probably because of his mustache.)
Never stop posting pretty pictures of Durins. They bring me such joy. :)
(This post was edited by marary on Mar 10 2015, 10:45pm)
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Never_Underestimate_A_Dwarf
Ossiriand
Mar 10 2015, 11:02pm
Post #85 of 200
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Also can I have a moment to just gush over Fili's costume in BotfA? I mean the main one, the one he wears the most (and dies in). And the one people compare to Boromir's lol. It's so gorgeous! I mean wow. He looked truly like a crown prince in that one. I love te costume work there. Next to Thorin he's easily the best dressed isn't it? Hench his status. I love that. It is very gorgeous indeed. On top of everything else, he's stylish as well (I thought he had the best clothes - the colors always suited him). He even pulled off the burlap sack look from Laketown/beginning of BotFA 
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Never_Underestimate_A_Dwarf
Ossiriand
Mar 10 2015, 11:20pm
Post #86 of 200
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I didn't come into BOFA as a Hobbit film geek. I had only seen AUJ and DOS once, a year apart, so I didn't spend a lot of time chilling with these characters in fandom and rewatches to build up expectations (dangerous things, they are). But in my "casual viewer" experience of BOFA, those bonds, statuses and relationships actually did come through to remarkable affect. My point is: the actors' understanding of the backstory/relationships does have a tremendous effect, without needing to be explicit to transmit that understanding to the audience.
I knew I was only setting myself up for a letdown, but being so invested in these movies and the character really gave me a biased view. So this is in interesting perspective, as I hadn't really thought of what a more casual viewer would think of these scenes.
I also sought out spoilers about Fili's demise immediately and did not allow myself to be surprised and let things play out. I knew what would happen and I was angry about it without seeing it first. Did that ruin the experience for me? Probably, yeah. I think I would have enjoyed the movie much better as a casual fan who didn't constantly question "why isn't this scene included?" But that's what happens when you get sucked in for two years - you'll never be truly satisfied with the final product. I like how you picked up on the subtleties without having watched each movie 50 times
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CathrineB
Nargothrond
Mar 10 2015, 11:28pm
Post #87 of 200
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I also sought out spoilers about Fili's demise immediately and did not allow myself to be surprised and let things play out. I knew what would happen and I was angry about it without seeing it first.
I did that too. Not just with Fili, but Kili too. I mean, I read the book yeeeears ago so I already knew it would happen, but I reached a point where I was like "No. I need to know so I can prepare myself" because seriously, when you've waited 12 years for that one line-moment to come alive on the big screen let's just say it had put my nerves on the most tense. I mean the first time I watched the movie I reacted unlike any other way I have ever to a movie. It's just fiction afterall, but wow. I actually twisted in my seat so nervous was I. It was Fili's death that left a mark because by the time Kili died I was SO unimpressed and disappointed with how they did it. Not what I had *hoped* for at all.
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Ilmatar
Nargothrond
Mar 10 2015, 11:56pm
Post #89 of 200
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The more Fili has grown on me, the sadder and more irritated I have become regarding his active screen time in these films (i.e. lack of).
Thorin abandons Kili in Lake-town on the basis that Kili's in too bad a state to continue on the quest... and he doesn't even order anyone to stay behind with him? What did he expect Kili, who can barely stay on his feet at this point, to do on his own in a strange place? Um, great guardianship, Thorin.
At this point Thorin had no reason to suspect that the people of Lake-town would not take care of Kili. The dwarves had been welcomed, seemingly with open arms, by the Master the previous day and had attended a banquet in his hall (where Bofur wakes up too late, with evidence of their dinner with wine still lying around). They were given pompous garments, helmets etc. and sent on their way with fanfare playing. It was only after their departure that the Master showed his true nature and refused offering any further help, which clearly took the Lake-town four by surprise. Thorin had no way to see that beforehand - he must thought that Kili would be offered a bed, food and medical care. (Also, at that time no one was aware that Kili's injury was not just some ordinary arrow wound.)
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Brethil
Gondolin
Mar 11 2015, 12:00am
Post #90 of 200
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I like Eowyn of Penn's Woods' "Oakenshielas". Clever. //
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(This post was edited by Brethil on Mar 11 2015, 12:00am)
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lionoferebor
Nargothrond
Mar 11 2015, 12:16am
Post #91 of 200
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4) since Thorin had Kili helping rob the armory and Kili has been covering up his injury (even when Thorin asks if Kili is all right) - until Kili falls and gets everyone arrested that Thorin knows that Kili has been hiding that he's in some pain.
In the directors commentary of DOS EE Philippa Boyens says this is the moment Thorin decides Kili will not be permitted to continue on the quest.
...and all we get is Kili *sigh* going on about the people of Laketown losing everything, which in hindsight to me probably wasn't the best move, considering what has happened to Thorin's people - who also lost everything. Whoops.
I agree, it wasn't the best move. The other thing I don't get is why is Kili so adamant about helping the men of Lake-town? It's been said on other threads because the men of Lake-town helped Kili in his time of need but according to Bofur everyone except for Bard turned them away. I'm not saying the men of Lake-town should not have received aid/compensation for their losses but considering how they treated Kili, why would he of all people speak for them? To be honest there are quite a few things Kili does that I do not understand.
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lionoferebor
Nargothrond
Mar 11 2015, 12:31am
Post #92 of 200
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I mean going by the promos alone there's no wonder why many went to the movie expecting Fili to have a reasonable amount of screentime. I mean come on he's on multiple promos with Thorin and Kili still afterall. Which is why I don't think he's quite "just another one of the background dwarves". It's just that... he's given more attention in the damn promo posters than of actual clips You know what I would have loved? And heck, expected? You had Richard talk about Fili and Kili in AUJ extras where he says something along the lines of him being thougher on Fili since he's the heir and is being groomed to become King one day. Yeah...? Well? How about showing us this? One scene of Thorin mentioning one day he'll be King is supposed to be enough?? There's a damn storyline right there!
I have to agree the promo material was rather deceiving. And out of the entire trilogy the third movie - IMO - seemed to be the film with the greatest potential for Fili to shine.
Also can I have a moment to just gush over Fili's costume in BotfA? It's so gorgeous! I mean wow. He looked truly like a crown prince in that one. Next to Thorin he's easily the best dressed isn't it? Hench his status. I love that.
I love Fili's costume in BOTFA. The colors are so rich and beautiful. Really he looks great in whatever he's wearing and his hair is always perfectly in place.
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lionoferebor
Nargothrond
Mar 11 2015, 12:47am
Post #93 of 200
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It *is* shown, though. Everything about Fili's more reserved behavior to his jumping into leadership mode a few times (Kili never does this) speaks to this. I quite like the subtlety. I didn't come into BOFA as a Hobbit film geek. I had only seen AUJ and DOS once, a year apart, so I didn't spend a lot of time chilling with these characters in fandom and rewatches to build up expectations (dangerous things, they are). But in my "casual viewer" experience of BOFA, those bonds, statuses and relationships actually did come through to remarkable affect. My point is: the actors' understanding of the backstory/relationships does have a tremendous effect, without needing to be explicit to transmit that understanding to the audience.
That's some film magic. I'm actually coming to appreciate (dare I say it) how subtle some of Fili's story/character is expressed.
This is true and Fili's subtle nature is one of the reasons I'm drawn to him. But what troubles me is these subtle moments are never expanded on (i.e. his concern for Thorin) and that if your not paying attention to what's going on in the background you may miss them. And unfortunately, I would guess most casual viewers are not watching the action in the background. Though, I'm glad that you as a casual viewer have taken note of these moments...but I don't believe that is the standard.
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CathrineB
Nargothrond
Mar 11 2015, 1:09am
Post #94 of 200
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It *is* shown, though. Everything about Fili's more reserved behavior to his jumping into leadership mode a few times (Kili never does this) speaks to this. I quite like the subtlety. I didn't come into BOFA as a Hobbit film geek. I had only seen AUJ and DOS once, a year apart, so I didn't spend a lot of time chilling with these characters in fandom and rewatches to build up expectations (dangerous things, they are). But in my "casual viewer" experience of BOFA, those bonds, statuses and relationships actually did come through to remarkable affect. My point is: the actors' understanding of the backstory/relationships does have a tremendous effect, without needing to be explicit to transmit that understanding to the audience. That's some film magic. I'm actually coming to appreciate (dare I say it) how subtle some of Fili's story/character is expressed.
This is true and Fili's subtle nature is one of the reasons I'm drawn to him. But what troubles me is these subtle moments are never expanded on (i.e. his concern for Thorin) and that if your not paying attention to what's going on in the background you may miss them. And unfortunately, I would guess most casual viewers are not watching the action in the background. Though, I'm glad that you as a casual viewer have taken note of these moments...but I don't believe that is the standard.
I understand what you mean because yeah I've put on my Fili goggles plenty of times myself and enjoy these moments, but my point is that those are often moments not given much attention. They're in the background or short moments. Not an actual scene which is such a huge pity.
Fili overall is pretty ignored. I mean does he even have a scene alone at all until he's captured alone at Ravenhill??
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lionoferebor
Nargothrond
Mar 11 2015, 1:18am
Post #95 of 200
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I understand what you mean because yeah I've put on my Fili goggles plenty of times myself and enjoy these moments, but my point is that those are often moments not given much attention. They're in the background or short moments. Not an actual scene which is such a huge pity.
Fili overall is pretty ignored. I mean does he even have a scene alone at all until he's captured alone at Ravenhill??
You're right. And it's a huge pity we even have to have "Fili Goggles" to capture those moments. Fili could've had at least one or two moments in he limelight and still had remained a subtle and noble character.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Doriath
Mar 11 2015, 1:36am
Post #96 of 200
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"The other thing I don't get is why is Kili so adamant about helping the men of Lake-town? It's been said on other threads because the men of Lake-town helped Kili in his time of need but according to Bofur everyone except for Bard turned them away. I'm not saying the men of Lake-town should not have received aid/compensation for their losses but considering how they treated Kili, why would he of all people speak for them? To be honest there are quite a few things Kili does that I do not understand."
I think he's just a really compassionate guy - plus in the book Fili & Kili argued with Thorin to share the gold with the Laketowners. In the movie they saw first hand the destruction and destitution of the survivors, plus Thorin DID promise that "all would share in the gold." I think all the dwarves were having doubts, but Kili was the only one willing to say anything - maybe because he's the young, impetuous one.
Why yes, I DO look like Anna Friel!
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lionoferebor
Nargothrond
Mar 11 2015, 2:05am
Post #98 of 200
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I think he's just a really compassionate guy - plus in the book Fili & Kili argued with Thorin to share the gold with the Laketowners. In the movie they saw first hand the destruction and destitution of the survivors, plus Thorin DID promise that "all would share in the gold." I think all the dwarves were having doubts, but Kili was the only one willing to say anything - maybe because he's the young, impetuous one.
Actually Bilbo confronts Thorin as well. He says to him, "Thorin you made a promise and I vouched you." Though I can't recall if this was before or after Kili's confrontation. Also when Bilbo vouches for Thorin, it's surprising to me no one else in the Company seconds him. I understand in terms of character-relationship development why Bilbo vouches for him, but you would think at least Fili, Kili, Balin, and/or Dwalin who are suppose to be closest to him would've vouched for him as well.
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marillaraina
Nargothrond
Mar 11 2015, 2:26am
Post #99 of 200
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4) since Thorin had Kili helping rob the armory and Kili has been covering up his injury (even when Thorin asks if Kili is all right) - until Kili falls and gets everyone arrested that Thorin knows that Kili has been hiding that he's in some pain. In the directors commentary of DOS EE Philippa Boyens says this is the moment Thorin decides Kili will not be permitted to continue on the quest. ...and all we get is Kili *sigh* going on about the people of Laketown losing everything, which in hindsight to me probably wasn't the best move, considering what has happened to Thorin's people - who also lost everything. Whoops. I agree, it wasn't the best move. The other thing I don't get is why is Kili so adamant about helping the men of Lake-town? It's been said on other threads because the men of Lake-town helped Kili in his time of need but according to Bofur everyone except for Bard turned them away. I'm not saying the men of Lake-town should not have received aid/compensation for their losses but considering how they treated Kili, why would he of all people speak for them? To be honest there are quite a few things Kili does that I do not understand.
So you think Kili should be petty and treat the men of Laketown like they treated him? Seriously? It's quite easy to understand what is going on - Kili is a genuinely good person who tries to do what is right and just. See that's when I can't take some of this stuff seriously - there is nothing "strange" about this. That's what heroes do - people treat them like dirt? Do they do the same thing? No, they try to do the right thing regardless(maybe they don't always succeed but they at least give it a go). I know it kills some of you to admit Kili is an heroic character but there you go, he is and this is one the ways in which he is.
Everyone's lost things(ok at that point the elves haven't really lost anything), it's never wrong to stand up for helping people who are in need, even if they aren't all the best people. And as Thorin had showed them upon their arrival, they had oodles of gold and gems, they could give a literal ton of it to the people of Laketown, which likely would have supported them through the winter, and it wouldn't have made a dent in that massive mound. The dwarves at this point were NOT in need, they were holing themselves up with a mountain of gold and jewels that could probably buy half of Middle Earth. And Thorin had made a promise and he was breaking it, which is not honorable.
Seriously if it was Fili standing up for the people of Laketown you'd all be going on about how noble and good he was and he has no more reason to do so than Kili. Well Kili is noble and good and kind hearted - it's consistent with the characterization for him that develops throughout the films. It's not at all out of character or strange that he would do so.
Kili has turned grey by the point they are on the docks(earlier than this actually), he looks like death warmed over, pretty much literally. Even without knowing the arrow was poisoned it was damn obvious there was some serious infection setting in by this time. Especially to someone like Thorin who, unlike Kili himself, has experience. But Thorin think's it's AOK to just leave him there on his own and rely on the kindness of total strangers? He doesn't ask if anyone in the Company would be willing to remain behind?
Make all the excuses, but that is not how a levelheaded, responsible leader treats those in their company--even the military has field medics to make sure injuries are taken care of. (and it's not like everyone was needed to go to the mountain frankly all they really needed was Thorin and Bilbo, the guy with the key and the burglar-they weren't planning on fighting Smaug with 14 people, just stealing the Arkenstone)
It's just lucky Oin is mature and clear seeing(if not clear hearing:)) enough to realize someone needs to stay(they don't know what kind of doctors are in that town). It has nothing to do with age, it would be wrong if he'd left Dwalin behind alone too, if Dwalin looked as ashen and feverish as Kili did. I don't blame Thorin for having Kili stay behind, how he did it was showed a lack of genuine concern though, to the point of willful blindness. Like he was going through the motions.
It's fair enough to think Kili, who had likely never been injured in any kind of significant way before, would be likely to try and brush off the pain not wanting to make a bigger deal out of it than it was, thinking he's a dwarf, he can tough it out. What I don't get is you have all these older wiser more experienced heads around, not just more senior members of the company but his family for god's sake, who never say "Let's have a look at that leg"? I'd say Fili is in the same boat, he's also relatively inexperienced in such matters most likely and would be thinking, well so long as he can stand on it and it's wrapped he'll be OK but that's not an excuse for most of the others.
Thorin, Dwalin, Balin, probably Gloin and Oin - these people have fought orcs, many were involved in a freakin huge traumatic battle with them where I'm sure many nasty wounds and infections were to be found - yet none of them are like "Kili don't look too good, maybe we need to see about that wound?" He has a leg wound, he was in a likely polluted lake to come up through the toilet and was covered in fish hiding in a barrel and no one thinks anything of it? The medical knowledge of Middle Earth does seem more advanced than "whatever, dirt has nothing to do with infection".
I really think that's part of the reason the scene where Bilbo mentions Kili's wound on the boat was cut out, because they realized it was sort of weird that afterwards literally no one else seemed the slightest bit concerned. It would attract attention to something that was actually a plot hole. But Kili LOOKED ill. He looked unwell as early as the discussion in Bard's house of what they should do next. I even noticed it before the film and before knowing he was injured because I remember looking at an early still of the scene in front of the Master's house and being like "Kili looks gray, he looks like a ghost, what's that about?" At that point I thought maybe it was just a weird light shadow, but afterwards realized it was the sick makeup.
And frankly if the armory is really where Thorin decided he'd stay behind then he should have told Kili way before it was time to get on the boat. No excuses about how Kili wouldn't have listened. Kili ALWAYS listens to Thorin, he doesn't willfully disobey Thorin at all prior to this so there is zero reason to believe that Kili did not deserve to be told he'd be left behind hours earlier. Even when he disagrees on the dock, he's not hysterical or anything, he states his case calmly if emotionally and then he does what Thorin says. No matter how 'busy" he was, he wasn't so busy he couldn't take a few minutes to pull Kili aside and tell him.
As well apparently, if as some people say, Thorin sees him as "an adult and can certainly take care of himself" on his own in a strange city looking like death warmed over, if that's the case and that's how Thorin is thinking then Kili's also "an adult" enough to be told ahead of time that he's going to be left behind and why. So you know he can go about making those plans, of somewhere to stay and finding a doctor, getting supplies, etc. You'd think Thorin would want to know he was set up before they left just to put his own mind at ease about it.
(This post was edited by marillaraina on Mar 11 2015, 2:28am)
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lionoferebor
Nargothrond
Mar 11 2015, 2:31am
Post #100 of 200
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It wasn't the heroic battlefield death Fili's death was very unique in regards to both trilogies. He didn't get the choral music and the slo-mo and others crying over him. Memorable and different but completely brutal.
No it wasn't the heroic battlefield death most of us had expected, but it was still heroic. Think about it: Fili is unarmed, he knows he's going to die, and still he tells Thorin and the other to "Go!" "Run!" Even as he's about to die he's still trying to protect those he loves. Whether fiction or the real world that takes A LOT of courage.
You're right, Fili's death is unlike any other death in terms of both trilogies. It's the only time we see an actual execution. Then his body is unceremoniously dropped. My gosh, if the stab to his back didn't kill him the fall more than like would have. It's as if he was killed twice.
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