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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 27 2008, 2:14pm
Post #1 of 17
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The Great River – Legolas, Boromir and a Faux Pas
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Here is the third of Entwife Wandlimb's posts away from home. She returns tomorrow.
They make it to the western shore without further injury.
Legolas laid down his paddle and took up the bow that he had brought from Lórien. Then he sprang ashore and climbed a few paces up the bank. Stringing the bow and fitting an arrow he turned, peering back over the River into the darkness. Across the water there were shrill cries, but nothing could be seen.
Frodo looked up at the Elf standing tall above him, as he gazed into the night, seeking a mark to shoot at. His head was dark, crowned with sharp white stars that glittered in the black pools of the sky behind. But now rising and sailing up from the South the great clouds advanced, sending out dark outriders into the starry fields. A sudden dread fell on the Company.
`Elbereth Gilthoniel!' sighed Legolas as he looked up. Even as he did so, a dark shape, like a cloud and yet not a cloud, for it moved far more swiftly, came out of the blackness in the South, and sped towards the Company, blotting out all light as it approached. Soon it appeared as a great winged creature, blacker than the pits in the night. Fierce voices rose up to greet it from across the water. Frodo felt a sudden chill running through him and clutching at his heart; there was a deadly cold, like the memory of an old wound, in his shoulder. He crouched down, as if to hide.
Suddenly the great bow of Lórien sang. Shrill went the arrow from the elven-string. Frodo looked up. Almost above him the winged shape swerved. There was a harsh croaking scream, as it fell out of the air, vanishing down into the gloom of the eastern shore. The sky was clean again. There was a tumult of many voices far away, cursing and wailing in the darkness, and then silence. Neither shaft nor cry came again from the east that night.
1. When Legolas sighes “Elbereth Gilthoniel! [O Elbereth Starkindler],”is he praising Varda at the sight of the stars or appealing to her in prayer?
2. When Frodo sees Legolas crowned with stars, is he seeing with his eyes or with his “spiritual” eyes?
3. If Legolas can take out the fell beast so easily here, why can’t he do so later in Gondor? Why does Tolkien give Legolas these extraordinary kills at this point?
They make camp.
'Praised be the bow of Galadriel, and the hand and eye of Legolas! ' said Gimli, as he munched a wafer of lembas. 'That was a mighty shot in the dark, my friend!'
'But who can say what it hit?' said Legolas.
'I cannot,' said Gimli. `But I am glad that the shadow came no nearer. I liked it not at all. Too much it reminded me of the shadow in Moria - the shadow of the Balrog,' he ended in a whisper.
'It was not a Balrog,' said Frodo, still shivering with the chill that had come upon him. 'It was something colder. I think it was -' Then he paused and fell silent.
'What do you think? ' asked Boromir eagerly, leaning from his boat, as if he was trying to catch a glimpse of Frodo's face.
4. Is Boromir’s eagerness inappropriate here? It strikes me so, but I don’t know why. Why is he eager?
Sam tries to figure out why he lost track of time in Lórien.
Legolas stirred in his boat. `Nay, time does not tarry ever,' he said; `but change and growth is not in all things and places alike. For the Elves the world moves, and it moves both very swift and very slow. Swift, because they themselves change little, and all else fleets by: it is a grief to them. Slow, because they do not count the running years, not for themselves. The passing seasons are but ripples ever repeated in the long long stream. Yet beneath the Sun all things must wear to an end at last.'
`But the wearing is slow in Lórien,' said Frodo. `The power of the Lady is on it. Rich are the hours, though short they seem, in Caras Galadhon, where Galadriel wields the Elven-ring.'
'That should not have been said outside Lórien, not even to me,' said Aragorn. `Speak no more of it! But so it is, Sam: in that land you lost your count. There time flowed swiftly by us, as for the Elves. The old moon passed, and a new moon waxed and waned in the world outside, while we tarried there. And yestereve a new moon came again. Winter is nearly gone. Time flows on to a spring of little hope.'
5. I know Menelwyn explored the Elven concept of time last week but why don’t the elves “count the running years”?
6. I get the impression that only Legolas, Sam, Frodo and Aragorn hear this remark about Galadriel’s ring. What happened to Gimli and Boromir, who were involved in the beginning of the conversation? What is the danger of speaking of it openly, even to Aragorn?
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Mar 27 2008, 3:12pm
Post #2 of 17
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1. When Legolas sighes “Elbereth Gilthoniel! [O Elbereth Starkindler],”is he praising Varda at the sight of the stars or appealing to her in prayer?
Yes.
2. When Frodo sees Legolas crowned with stars, is he seeing with his eyes or with his “spiritual” eyes?
Yes.
3. If Legolas can take out the fell beast so easily here, why can’t he do so later in Gondor?
Flying at night in the middle of nowhere, who’d think you’d need to fly an evasion pattern? Straight line flying is what you’re going to do. However, in broad daylight in the middle of a big battle you’re going to be making a lot of quick and frequent change of direction maneuvers to carry out your various missions. No fault of Legolas here.
Why does Tolkien give Legolas these extraordinary kills at this point?
Same reason as Peter Jackson: To appeal to the Elf Fanciers in his audience.
4. Is Boromir’s eagerness inappropriate here?
It’s creepy.
It strikes me so, but I don’t know why. Why is he eager?
He’s been thinking about the ring. He’s wondering about the powers of the ring. Maybe Frodo was using the ring to see in the dark, to sense what was up there. Boromir is very interested in the ring and any of its powers.
5. I know Menelwyn explored the Elven concept of time last week but why don’t the elves “count the running years”?
Why don’t we count the running seconds? When you get older with a lot of time under your belt you often lose count. Like just yesterday I started to write “March 26, 19…” at the head of a letter before I did the face slap. And I still wonder where 2007 went. That’s the reason most of the Elves finally decided to leave after the War of the Ring. They kept forgetting whether it was the 3rd age or the 4th Age.
6. I get the impression that only Legolas, Sam, Frodo and Aragorn hear this remark about Galadriel’s ring. What happened to Gimli and Boromir, who were involved in the beginning of the conversation?
Gimli’s listening breathless hanging on every word about his lady Galadriel. Boromir is listening breathless hanging on every word about a ring of power.
What is the danger of speaking of it openly, even to Aragorn?
The Enemy might overhear and realize one of the Elven Rings is in Lothlorien. (Like modern crooks might realize there’s a lot of bars of gold in Fort Knox. Big secret.) Aragorn might be over-reacting. One wonders if King Elessar will have a security fetish to rival Dick Chaney’s and stamp even the toilet paper “Top Secret”. Then again, in Middle-earth words are power. Mentioning something may indeed invoke a small blip of power on the Enemy’s radar, and so lead the bad guys right to where the loose lips are blabbing. Straight to Frodo. Best to be safe. (Still, I hope King Elessar doesn't try to claim that the Office of Steward isn't part of the Executive branch.)
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 27 2008, 4:43pm
Post #3 of 17
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1. When Legolas sighes “Elbereth Gilthoniel! [O Elbereth Starkindler],”is he praising Varda at the sight of the stars or appealing to her in prayer?
Since the clouds rapidly hide the stars, and since he doubtless feels the Black Breath, same as the others do, I'd wager the latter. Basically, in a distinctly more elegant elvish way, he is sighing, "Oh my God!" 2. When Frodo sees Legolas crowned with stars, is he seeing with his eyes or with his “spiritual” eyes?
Both. With spiritual sight one can perceive ordinary things through the ordinary senses in a heightened fashion with symbol-rich significance.
3. If Legolas can take out the fell beast so easily here, why can’t he do so later in Gondor? Why does Tolkien give Legolas these extraordinary kills at this point?
The fell beast's rider does not expect attack. As Darkstone says, he's not using evasive maneuvers. He does not know of arrows that can reach so far. Later he knows.
'What do you think? ' asked Boromir eagerly, leaning from his boat, as if he was trying to catch a glimpse of Frodo's face. 4. Is Boromir’s eagerness inappropriate here? It strikes me so, but I don’t know why. Why is he eager?
The way he leans out from his boat trying to study Frodo's face gives me a creepy feeling that he's much more interested in Frodo and in what his opinions might say about him than in the actual content of those opinions for their own sake. That would certainly make me nervous, if I were Frodo.
5. I know Menelwyn explored the Elven concept of time last week but why don’t the elves “count the running years”?
They run by too fast to consider.
6. I get the impression that only Legolas, Sam, Frodo and Aragorn hear this remark about Galadriel’s ring. What happened to Gimli and Boromir, who were involved in the beginning of the conversation? What is the danger of speaking of it openly, even to Aragorn?
I figure they all hear the same thing.
Since Aragorn says it shouldn't be said even to him outside Lorien the danger is not that he himself should learn of it, but that spies and eavesdroppers should hear. Sauron may well guess, but he does not know for sure that Galadriel has it. Celeborn might be wielding it, for all he knows, or Cirdan. He needs certainty in order to act. Since Galadriel took it off at the first probing of his mind, and probably did not resume it until Isildur cut the One Ring from his finger, Sauron might not have perceived that Galadriel had the ring at all. After all, his rhyme says, "Three rings for the Elven Kings," which indicates that he might not know that at this point no elven kings at all control the rings--rather, a loremaster, a queen, and a wizard who isn't even an elf himself.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Mar 27 2008, 4:47pm)
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 27 2008, 9:40pm
Post #4 of 17
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...Sauron might not have perceived that Galadriel had the ring at all. After all, his rhyme says, "Three rings for the Elven Kings,"... Actually, it seems that Sauron only wrote (and intoned) the lines "One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them, one ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them", while the rest of the poem, framing that rhyme, is a later addition by someone else. It could be Elvish disinformation.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Mar 28 2008, 5:33am
Post #5 of 17
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1. When Legolas sighes “Elbereth Gilthoniel! [O Elbereth Starkindler],”is he praising Varda at the sight of the stars or appealing to her in prayer?
Both, I think - why can it not be both?
2. When Frodo sees Legolas crowned with stars, is he seeing with his eyes or with his “spiritual” eyes?
It is with his eyes, but at the same time Varda may be answering her hero's call. Varda is the Lady of the Stars, after all.
3. If Legolas can take out the fell beast so easily here, why can’t he do so later in Gondor? Why does Tolkien give Legolas these extraordinary kills at this point?
He's not there to do so. In Gondor, the better part of the heroic killing is already done by the time Legolas is on the scene.
4. Is Boromir’s eagerness inappropriate here? It strikes me so, but I don’t know why. Why is he eager?
This chapter is trying to reveal, half-subtly, that Boromir has decided that the Ring needs to go to Minas Tirith to be used as a weapon against the enemy. And yes, we all forsee it.
5. I know Menelwyn explored the Elven concept of time last week but why don’t the elves “count the running years”?
I think the phrase is for themselves. Legolas may not know his own age, but certainly the Elves keep annals.
6. I get the impression that only Legolas, Sam, Frodo and Aragorn hear this remark about Galadriel’s ring. What happened to Gimli and Boromir, who were involved in the beginning of the conversation? What is the danger of speaking of it openly, even to Aragorn?
How about "I'm on a need to know basis, and I don't need to know"? Honestly, I don't think there is any danger of this information in the hands of anybody in the Fellowship, except maybe Boromir. Gollum might have overheard it, and that could be disasterous, though, if Gollum were a servant of the Enemy, which they suspect him to be (although he is not, as we find out in the first chapter of Book IV). Boromir is dangerous, if anything he learned got out. However, Boromir is eliminated before he has a chance to do that!
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Isis
Nevrast
Mar 29 2008, 10:29am
Post #6 of 17
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`But the wearing is slow in Lorien,' said Frodo. `The power of the Lady is on it. Rich are the hours, though short they seem, in Caras Galadhon, where Galadriel wields the Elven-ring.' ' That should not have been said outside Lorien, not even to me,' said Aragorn. `Speak no more of it!
It seems to me that Frodo is thinking back to Lorien in a dreamy kind of way, as if he's still under Galadriel's 'spell'*. He seems almost to be thinking aloud here. That would help explain (to me) why he blurts this out. He's wise enough to know better! This information is not intended to be common knowledge, aside from the obvious danger of a servant of the Enemy finding out. It was only revealed to Frodo because he's also a Ring-bearer. Do we know if Aragorn knew Galadriel possessed this Ring already, whether officially or whether he worked it out for himself? I presume he knew. Aragorn seems to be saying that it is not a matter for discussion even between two people who have that knowledge. When he says not even to me, does he mean that it is never safe to assume nobody is listening, or that they are not permitted to discuss Elvish secrets even though they are both trustworthy Elf Friends.
*Or is he under the power of the One Ring when he lets this information slip?
'Take now this Ring,' he said; 'for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill.'
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Mar 31 2008, 12:47am
Post #7 of 17
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Of course he's still under her spell!
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Aragorn and Boromir talk before going into Lórien about whether or not a person can enter and leave unscathed. The answer is that nobody can enter and leave unchanged. If you see the kind of beauty that exists there, you will never forget it, and it will color you for the rest of your life.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 31 2008, 2:52am
Post #8 of 17
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Okay, obviously Boromir changed, giving in to his temptations. Frodo changed by becoming sure of his course and insistant upon the road to Mordor no matter what anyone else says. Sam changes into someone who can put the mission ahead of all other considerations. Legolas and Gimli change by setting aside their prejudices and becoming friends. Aragorn changes by becoming officially engaged by elf standards as opposed to wishing to become engaged--which implies an engagement also with kingship.
How do Merry and Pippin change? True, they eventually become much more influential people, but what did Lorien have to do with that? The experience of being captured by orcs, it seems to me, had a lot more to do with developing their nascent heroism than visiting the Golden Wood. Any ideas out there?
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Mar 31 2008, 5:30am
Post #9 of 17
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characterizes Merry and Pippin from here on, I think - although they may have gotten that in Rivendell (where there is Elven beauty also, of course). But Pippin tearing off a brooch, and then thinking that there it will lie unto the end of the world. Their nascent heroism, though, starts out with Boromir, I think, if memory serves me (perhaps I am thinking of I believe Nasmith's painting).
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Entwife Wandlimb
Menegroth
Mar 31 2008, 6:09am
Post #10 of 17
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Tolkien brushes over them for a bit
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They don't say a word in this chapter, just observe Boromir. They don't speak until Frodo goes off for some thinking time in the next chapter. It's hard to tell how they've changed between Lothlorien and the time of their capture. Looking over what happened there, perhaps it was just a subtle change:
All of them, it seemed, had fared alike: each had felt that he was offered a choice between a shadow full of fear that lay ahead, and something that he greatly desired: clear before his mind it lay, and to get it he had only to turn aside from the road and leave the Quest and the war against Sauron to others.
In the next chapter, Merry and Pippin talk about how they are determined to go on. Maybe they just needed to be convinced of their own faithfulness, now that they have a better idea of what they are getting into.
I liked your thoughts on the others. Thanks!
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sador
Gondolin
Mar 31 2008, 8:54pm
Post #11 of 17
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2. When Frodo sees Legolas crowned with stars, is he seeing with his eyes or with his “spiritual” eyes?
He is remembering Gimli's song:
He stooped and looked in Mirrormere,
And saw a crown of stars appear,
As gems upon a silver thread,
Above the shadow of his head.
The parallel seems clear (notice 'the black pools of the sky'), but I'm not sure what it means. Any ideas?
3. If Legolas can take out the fell beast so easily here, why can’t he do so later in Gondor?
As Beren IV pointed out, he's not there at the time of the siege. Later, before the attack on the black Gate, the Nazgul appear and fly "high and out of sight of all save Legolas", i.e. out of bowshot. They have learned the lesson.
Why does Tolkien give Legolas these extraordinary kills at this point?
Gandalf had fallen. Aragorn is going through an eclipse. Boromir is muttering to himself, and at the very least is by now enstranged from the rest of the fellowship. Frodo is 'screwing himself up' to a desparate move. Somebody has to raise our spirits!
4. Is Boromir’s eagerness inappropriate here? It strikes me so, but I don’t know why. Why is he eager?
Well, he guesses the identity of the Winged Messenger correctly. He is remembering his own words at the Council of Elrond:
"Wherever he came... fear fell on our boldest, so that horse and man gave way and fled"
Three thoughts about this: - Boromir and Frodo think of the Witch-king (or the Nazgul in general); Gimli of the Balrog. Everyone connects to his own deepest fears (does Merry think of the Barrow-wight?)
- Boromir realises he has a moment of understanding with Frodo, better than the rest of the fellowship. He senses his doubt and fear, and need for relief from his burden (which was why he offered the Ring two chapters ago, to the only other of 'the good guys' who confessed to desiring it) - and some hope that he might be trusted more by the Ringbearer enters his heart. I think the lonely journey down the River (feeling rejected by his companions), Frodo's taking Gandalf's words on trust and refusing to consider other options than walking blindly into Mordor, and the growing despair and fear for his beloved father and city - all these combined to driving him over the edge next chapter.
- He also realises the Nazgul can be taken. A glimmer of hope for the coming War.
6. I get the impression that only Legolas, Sam, Frodo and Aragorn hear this remark about Galadriel’s ring. What happened to Gimli and Boromir, who were involved in the beginning of the conversation?
Well, they sit in different boats, and haven't got Elvish ears.
What is the danger of speaking of it openly, even to Aragorn?
Darkstone mentioned Sauron must have known Galadriel keeps a Ring. But Galadriel herself said: "He suspects, but he does not know - not yet". According to the UT, Celebrimbor and Celeborn were hardly on good terms (and Sauron himself did his best to foment their mutual hard feelings), so perhaps he wasn't so sure.
In the Council of Elrond, Galdor said: "What power still remains lies with us, here in Imladris, or with Cirdan at the Havens, or in Lorien". I'm pretty sure at this stage on my first reading (after Nenya was revealed), I felt I knew where the Three were hidden - and was right only in two out of three. So Sauron could have had his doubts; perhaps the Three were sent overseas?
And he had them even after having Galadriel for a neighbour, for a thousand years.
Anyway, Galadriel herself said: "it is not permitted to speak of it, and Elrond could not do so".
"For many long years I have pondered" - Galadriel
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Mar 31 2008, 9:06pm
Post #12 of 17
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2. When Frodo sees Legolas crowned with stars, is he seeing with his eyes or with his “spiritual” eyes?
He is remembering Gimli's song:
He stooped and looked in Mirrormere,
And saw a crown of stars appear,
As gems upon a silver thread,
Above the shadow of his head.
The parallel seems clear (notice 'the black pools of the sky'), but I'm not sure what it means. Any ideas?
Great catch!
The crown of stars is a sign to Durin that he is destined to build a colony in nearby Khazad-dum.
Legolas is destined to build an Elf-colony in nearby Ithilien.
Just... wow!
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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sador
Gondolin
Mar 31 2008, 9:13pm
Post #13 of 17
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"For many long years I have pondered" - Galadriel
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 22 2009, 8:38am
Post #14 of 17
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Legolas puts the Nazgûl on notice.
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If Legolas can take out the fell beast so easily here, why can’t he do so later in Gondor? Why does Tolkien give Legolas these extraordinary kills at this point?
Usually they fly “almost within bowshot” but no closer; the exceptions are when they attack mounted figures whose horses are even more easily terrified than their riders.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 22 2009, 8:40am
Post #16 of 17
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I never noticed that they don’t speak!
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Good catch. It’s like Sam in the first half of “The Old Forest”.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 22 2009, 8:40am
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And possibly Aragorn “crowned” by Weathertop?
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That’s a fine post, sador. Nice work with Boromir’s thoughts!
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