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Menelwyn
Nargothrond
Mar 20 2008, 10:21pm
Post #1 of 24
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Farewell to Lorien 7: The Danger of Light and Joy
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We’ve touched a bit on Gimli and his reaction to Galadriel already, but it is raised again as the Fellowship goes away from Lorien. Gimli speaks:
“Truly Elrond spoke, saying the we could not foresee what we might meet upon our road. Torment in the dark was the danger that I feared, and it did not hold me back. But I would not have come, had I known the danger of light and joy. Now I have taken my worst wound in this parting….”
“Nay!” said Legolas. “Alas for us all….For such is the way of it: to find and lose, as it seems to those whose boat is on the running stream. But I count you blessed, Gimli son of Gloin, for your loss you suffer of your own free will…and the least reward that you shall have is that the memory of Lothlorien shall remain ever clear and unstained in your heart, and shall neither fade nor grow stale.”
“Maybe,” said Gimli; “…yet all such comfort is cold. Memory is not what the heart desires. That is only a mirror, be it clear as Kheled-zaram….Elves may see things otherwise.”
1. What is it in this brief stay in Lothlorien that made Gimli react so strongly to Galadriel? Exactly how would you characterize the love he feels for her?
2. What is the danger of light and joy? Why is it so dangerous, more dangerous than that of torment in the dark? Is anyone else in the Fellowship experiencing this?
3. When Legolas speaks of Gimli’s memory of Lothlorien, is he right? Is Gimli right that Legolas as an Elf can’t understand how memory works for non-Elves?
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Mar 21 2008, 12:01am
Post #2 of 24
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1. What is it in this brief stay in Lothlorien that made Gimli react so strongly to Galadriel? Exactly how would you characterize the love he feels for her?
As a dwarf, Gimli undeniably is of a different species than Galadriel, so I would assume that his admiration for her is not borne of sexual desire. However, Galadriel is evidently beautiful in more ways than that (although presumably she is attractive to her own kind also): she carries a radiance, grace, degree of physical perfection as a living creature, and otherwise angelic physical form that she strikes those that look on her with awe, an arguably magical awe. Galadriel represents what Gimli believes in, for Gimli's own song in Moria indicates very clearly that Dwarves also value nature and natural beauty. I would assume therefore that Gimli's feelings for Galadriel include a desire to either serve her or to ally with her and stand by her. Of course, he cannot: he has to keep on the quest.
2. What is the danger of light and joy? Why is it so dangerous, more dangerous than that of torment in the dark? Is anyone else in the Fellowship experiencing this?
Temptation - light and joy are pleasurable, and if Gimli were to remain in Lórien to enjoy them, evil would be victorious in the lands outside. It is therefore dangerous not directly to Gimli, but to others who depend upon him, whose lives he values, and to whom he has pledged his aid.
3. When Legolas speaks of Gimli’s memory of Lothlorien, is he right? Is Gimli right that Legolas as an Elf can’t understand how memory works for non-Elves?
Elves do have clearer memories than even Dwarves (which isn't easy), but I think Legolas understands it well enough. Certainly Galadriel herself does: she remembers the peace of Arda when she dwelt in Valinor under Laurien and Silpion. She wishes she could be back there, even now that the Trees are dead, because even so Aman is a more wonderful place than even her mimicry of it in Middle Earth. Long has she fought against the evil that corrupts her world, destroying Middle Earth's beauty. Now much of it exist only in her memory. That's not as good as really existing. So I think Legolas is trying to steel himself against the pervasive feeling of loss that permeates Tolkien's fiction.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Mar 22 2008, 3:40pm
Post #3 of 24
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Parting is such sweet sorrow...
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Poor old Gimli. He could have dealt with physical pain or ordinary fear - he's a Dwarf, after all. He's tough and brave. But when it comes to love, no-one falls so hard, or so painfully, as the macho guy who's into fighting and endurance, but has never paid much attention to women before! Here he is, like the lover in Shakespeare's verse,
Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
Made to his mistress' eyebrow.
It's on the edge of comedy, this mismatch between the Elf-Queen and the Dwarf, but Gimli's pain is so heart-felt, you can't help but sympathise with the poor guy! (And it also makes us aware of just how powerful Galadriel's influence is, that she can win over the Dwarf in this way. None of the others are affected like this, but I don't think any of them are ever quite the same again - except Aragorn maybe, but that's because he's been through this before!)
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 24 2008, 4:24pm
Post #4 of 24
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Poor Gimli! Behind their tough exteriors, the melancholic strain of unrequited and unrequitable love runs deep throughout dwarvish culture. It must, when only one in three is born female, and even among the females some never marry, pining for someone that they cannot have. There is nothing at all unusual about a dwarf falling for the wife of another; rather than seek to express such a passion adulterously, Gimli immediately slips right into the conventions of Courtly Love at its highest, platonic level, as though his society had long since established parameters for allowing and yet controlling this kind of passion, as it would have to do to survive. Indeed, this chaste romance most likely gave him some measure of consolation to the probability of never finding a wife--he has his love of the spirit. His heart was more vulnerable than any other in the community.
To make Galadriel even more enticing to a dwarf, she is as tall as the males of her species, and has as deep a voice, and has enough masculine traits to have been called "man-maiden" in her youth before she got old enough to change her name. Dwarves are monomorphic--that is, their males and females closely resemble each other. To a member of a monomorphic species, bimorphism would seem strange and disgusting. Cross-species attractions would not happen often--but if they did, they would zero in on the most androgynous person available.
Interestingly, right after refusing the ring, Galadriel does get a small taste of her wish--someone loves her in despair. Yet it is not a complete despair, but rather the comfortable, poetic despair of a species accustomed to that sort of thing, probably featuring it in a central motif of story, art, and song. Thus she received what she wanted in the most harmless way possible--indeed, where it would actually do some good.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Mar 24 2008, 11:37pm
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Wow, what a great, insightful post!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 25 2008, 12:32am
Post #6 of 24
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That's some great insight into Gimli's nature there, DD. Thanks for posting it!
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Kimi
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 25 2008, 1:02am
Post #7 of 24
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That really adds depth to Gimli's portrait. Thank you so much.
My writing (including The Passing of Mistress Rose)
Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?
- A Room With a View
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 25 2008, 4:19pm
Post #8 of 24
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Thanks, guys! And here I felt ashamed because I was too tired to answer all the questions!
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 25 2008, 4:38pm
Post #9 of 24
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So why does Boromir dislike her? //
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 25 2008, 5:00pm
Post #10 of 24
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People always dislike those who might see too deeply into what they hide even from themselves. And if this dislike matches well with a pre-existing prejudice, then all the better. People talk about wanting to be understood, but all too often they really don't want that--they prefer to have their masks believed.
All the rest of the Fellowship, nevertheless, were capable of honesty about their temptations, even if it mortified them. Yet Boromir remained too proud to admit to his own, until he could find some way to rationalize it as good sense rather than temptation--at which point the temptation became an evil choice.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Curious
Gondolin
Mar 25 2008, 6:49pm
Post #11 of 24
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Tolkien was no fan of Courtly Love.
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"This tale does not deal with a period of 'Courtly Love' and its pretences; but with a culture more primitive (sc. less corrupt) and nobler." Letter # 244.
That being said, I'm not ready to discard your description of Gimli's behavior as similar to "the conventions of Courtly Love at its highest, platonic level." On the other hand, even the most platonic courtly love seemed to have a frustrated physical element to it, while many of the less-platonic poems in that tradition were quite bawdy. I don't think Tolkien intended Gimli's love to have any physical element to it at all, any more than he intended Gollum or Sam's love of Frodo to have a physical element to it. Gimli's love was gentlemanly and pure, but Tolkien may have based it more on the respect shown for Queen Wealhþeow or Queen Hygd in Beowulf than on The Book of the Courtier.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Mar 25 2008, 9:07pm
Post #12 of 24
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1. What is it in this brief stay in Lothlorien that made Gimli react so strongly to Galadriel?
A Beatific Vision:
"He who has been instructed thus far in the things of love, and who has learned to see the beautiful in due order and succession, when he comes toward the end will suddenly perceive a nature of wondrous beauty (and this, Socrates, is the final cause of all our former toils) -- a nature which in the first place is everlasting, not growing and decaying, or waxing and waning; secondly, not fair in one point of view and foul in another, or at one time or in one relation or at one place fair, at another time or in another relation or at another place foul, as if fair to some and foul to others, or in the likeness of a face or hands or any other part of the bodily frame, or in any form of speech or knowledge, or existing in any other being, as for example, in an animal, or in heaven or in earth, or in any other place; but beauty absolute, separate, simple, and everlasting, which without diminution and without increase, or any change, is imparted to the ever-growing and perishing beauties of all other things. He who from these ascending under the influence of true love, begins to perceive that beauty, is not far from the end. And the true order of going, or being led by another, to the things of love, is to begin from the beauties of earth and mount upwards for the sake of that other beauty, using these as steps only, and from one going on to two, and from two to all fair forms, and from fair forms to fair practices, and from fair practices to fair notions, until from fair notions he arrives at the notion of absolute beauty, and at last knows what the essence of beauty is. This, my dear Socrates," said the stranger of Mantineia, "is that life above all others which man should live, in the contemplation of beauty absolute; a beauty which if you once beheld, you would see not to be after the measure of gold, and garments, and fair boys and youths, whose presence now entrances you; and you and many a one would be content to live seeing them only and conversing with them without meat or drink, if that were possible -- you only want to look at them and to be with them. But what if man had eyes to see the true beauty -- the divine beauty, I mean, pure and dear and unalloyed, not clogged with the pollutions of mortality and all the colours and vanities of human life -- thither looking, and holding converse with the true beauty simple and divine? Remember how in that communion only, beholding beauty with the eye of the mind, he will be enabled to bring forth, not images of beauty, but realities (for he has hold not of an image but of a reality), and bringing forth and nourishing true virtue to become the friend of the Divine and be immortal, if mortal man may. Would that be an ignoble life?"
-Plato, The Symposium
(BTW, I love the extensive "fair" versus "foul" byplay in the full text.)
Exactly how would you characterize the love he feels for her?
Frauendienst, the recognition that the Divine can be perceived only with the assistance of the feminine. Galadriel of Lothlorien for Gimil, Diotima of Mantineia for Plato.
(BTW, "Diotima" means "Honored by the Divine". Definitely a "Lady of Light.")
2. What is the danger of light and joy?
“Neither do the ignorant seek after Wisdom. For herein is the evil of ignorance, that he who is neither good nor wise is nevertheless satisfied with himself: he has no desire for that of which he feels no want."
-Plato, The Symposium
Why is it so dangerous, more dangerous than that of torment in the dark?
“Any one who has common sense will remember that the bewilderments of the eyes are of two kinds, and arise from two causes, either from coming out of the light or from going into the light, which is true of the mind's eye, quite as much as of the bodily eye; and he who remembers this when he sees any one whose vision is perplexed and weak, will not be too ready to laugh; he will first ask whether that soul of man has come out of the brighter light, and is unable to see because unaccustomed to the dark, or having turned from darkness to the day is dazzled by excess of light. And he will count the one happy in his condition and state of being, and he will pity the other; or, if he have a mind to laugh at the soul which comes from below into the light, there will be more reason in this than in the laugh which greets him who returns from above out of the light into the cave.”
-Plato, The Allegory of the Cave, The Republic
Is anyone else in the Fellowship experiencing this?
“But, whether true or false, my opinion is that in the world of knowledge the idea of good appears last of all, and is seen only with an effort; and, when seen, is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right, parent of light and of the lord of light in this visible world, and the immediate source of reason and truth in the intellectual; and that this is the power upon which he who would act rationally, either in public or private life must have his eye fixed.”
-Plato, The Allegory of the Cave, The Republic
Frodo has his eye fixed on the Shire. Sam, Merry and Pippin have their eyes fixed on friendship, Aragorn has his eyes fixed on kingship. Boromir has his eyes fixed on saving Gondor.
3. When Legolas speaks of Gimli’s memory of Lothlorien, is he right?
For Elves. For the immortal.
“The truth of the matter is this: No god is a philosopher. or seeker after wisdom, for he is wise already; nor does any man who is wise seek after wisdom.”
-Plato, The Symposium
Is Gimli right that Legolas as an Elf can’t understand how memory works for non-Elves?
“For there is nothing which men love but the good. Is there anything?" "Certainly, I should say, that there is nothing." "Then," she said, "the simple truth is, that men love the good." "Yes," I said. "To which must be added that they love the possession of the good? "Yes, that must be added." "And not only the possession, but the everlasting possession of the good?" "That must be added too." "Then love," she said, "may be described generally as the love of the everlasting possession of the good?" "That is most true."
-Plato, The Symposium
The immortal Elves can possess the good everlastingly. The mortal Dwarves cannot.
Once an Elf realizes the nature of mortality, they hear the gulls, and long for the immortal world of Valinor. For Legolas this is still to come.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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sador
Gondolin
Mar 25 2008, 9:23pm
Post #13 of 24
(1999 views)
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Galadriel is the one person who confesses to wanting the Ring, and for good purposes. And she makes this confession only after being offered it freely, which he never was. Who knows what pushed him over the edge? Could it be the rejection, the realisation that Frodo would offer her the Ring before letting him see it? Frustration that Aragorn would follow instead of lead him?
The way the Lady spoke in his mind, probably made him realise here was another who desired the Ring; but here the Ring is on its' way again, apparantly untouched. Did Frodo resist her? Or did she surrender to the wisdom of "half-elves and wizards", as he called them comtemptously? I suspect it's more of a disappointment than of rivalry. He thought she was offering him an alliance, like Gil-galad and Elendil's of old (and probably still believed he would be able to destroy the Ring after the victory) - and it frightened him. As he said, he refused to listen. But the seeds were sown.
"For many long years I have pondered" - Galadriel
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Mar 25 2008, 10:00pm
Post #14 of 24
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(as described by Dreamdeer) could be entirely pure and mystical - in fact, some Old French poems use the same language to praise the Madonna.
And I think Darkstone's quotes make the same point about the term Platonic love.
I think it can be dangerous to rely too much on forms of words that happen to be used by Tolkien in a letter - sometimes he uses a term that may be clear in the context of the letter (as here, where he describes what he means by Courtly Love), but that also has a wider meaning about which Tolkien's opinion might be different. (The word 'allegory' is another case in point.)
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Curious
Gondolin
Mar 26 2008, 12:44am
Post #15 of 24
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attempted to co-opt courtly love as part of the worship of the Madonna. That was a later development, not an early version.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 26 2008, 2:22am
Post #16 of 24
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Not worship. Not even in the old days. Respect and honor, certainly, but that is not the same thing. All are entitled to their opinions, but no one is entitled to misrepresent the opinions of others.
I mean no rebuke. The innocent may hear all kinds of things about the customs of those different from themselves, and repeat them without intended harm. I understand that. But worshipping Mary is not our custom. I felt the need to clarify that.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Mar 26 2008, 2:27am)
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Curious
Gondolin
Mar 26 2008, 10:56am
Post #17 of 24
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Sorry, didn't realize I was stepping onto a theological land mine. "Devotion," I gather, is the proper word. "Worship" is a Protestant slight. Please forgive me, no offense meant.
(This post was edited by Curious on Mar 26 2008, 10:58am)
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 26 2008, 2:58pm
Post #18 of 24
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No problem, Curious. I know that I, myself, have learned all kinds of things from internet friendships about cultures different from my own, revising a great deal of what I had been taught about other peoples. That, in fact, is one of the most exciting things about the internet.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Mar 26 2008, 5:36pm
Post #19 of 24
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That sounds like an oversimplification
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The Catholic Church attempted to co-opt courtly love as part of the worship of the Madonna. That was a later development, not an early version.
There's no consensus about how Courtly Love came into being at all. I just found an interesting essay suggesting that the Celtic attitude to the female may have been a part of its development. Either way, it's clear that Courtly Love at its purest was perfectly chaste enough to be applied to the Virgin Mary - and later, as you know of course, to idealized women such as Dante's Beatrice, who inspire their admirers to religious devotion.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Mar 26 2008, 6:01pm
Post #20 of 24
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Courtly Love seems to be a medieval mixture of Platonic Love, Germanic Frauendienst, and Pagan Goddess worship.
And I dunno about Courtly Love, but I have heard it argued that Madonna devotion was an attempt to co-opt Goddess worship. Supposedly a lot of Madonna shrines were built over Goddess temples.
The attempt was ironic because the Old Testament already had the Goddess in the form of Asherah, Jehovah's better half.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Mar 26 2008, 7:01pm
Post #21 of 24
(1943 views)
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the Old Testament already had the Goddess in the form of Asherah, Jehovah's better half
I never heard that before. Not that I know much about the Old Testament - Catholics aren't encouraged to read and learn from the Bible directly, and I guess that the bits of the Old Testament they taught us were pretty selective. I must read up a bit about Asherah - sounds intriguing.
It's interesting that Judaism had a female principle that was lost in the evolution to monotheism, but that its descendant Christianity proceeded to re-evolve a female principle to suit the traditions of the Northern European people among whom it spread. According to Wikipedia, Asherah was known as the "Queen of Heaven". Plus ça change...
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 27 2008, 2:34am
Post #22 of 24
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(There must be huge regional differences in how churches operate. My priests have always tried to get people to read the Bible more. In any case, Tolkien at least would have been conversant in the Bible, having translated part of it professionally.)
Different Israelite factions fought over whether the mentioned female was a goddess named Asherah or Astarte, or a demon named Asheroth. In the end the demonizing faction won out, as evidenced by the many biblical references to destroying the groves and high places of Asheroth, and the various prophets reviling Asheroth-worship. So although she is Biblical, she is not portrayed as a positive figure.
However, there was also Sophia, who is God's feminine side, AKA Wisdom, which some consider to be the Holy Spirit. In fact, the first Cathedral was named St. Sophia's. Some of the orthodox communities of Jews, I have read, encourage couples to engage in intercourse on the Sabbath in order to help the male and female aspects of God cleave close together and thus stay monotheistic. Although dying out, this seems to be an ancient practice.
And then there is a matter of many feminine or gender-neutral words pertaining to God in the ancient languages winding up translated, over time, as masculine. One of the most striking examples I can think of on this is the phrase (intended as quoting God) saying, "Why, O Israel, have you abandoned me, though I writhed in labor with you?" As it is now translated, it reads, "Why, O Israel, have you abandoned me, when I begat you?" Seems to me there's a whole lot of difference between writhing in labor and begetting!
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Mar 27 2008, 5:01am
Post #23 of 24
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Archangel Gabriel is also female,
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according to some of the older texts.
Most of the major angels are known as Sumerian demigods as well as in their Hebrew traditions.
Thanks for the reference of who St. Sophia is for whom the cathedral (now mosque) is named!
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 22 2009, 8:26am
Post #24 of 24
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Tolkien’s professional translation
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…of the Book of Jonah, for the Jerusalem Bible, came late in life, after LOTR was published. But of course he knew the Bible very well indeed, and referred to it in his scholarship of medieval texts. Entwife Wandlimb even wrote an encyclopedia article on this subject.
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