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The Mirror of Galadriel 4 -- a thousand points of light.

Curious
Gondolin


Mar 14 2008, 1:15am

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The Mirror of Galadriel 4 -- a thousand points of light. Can't Post

How did the elves power all their lights? Since they don't need sleep, do they stay up all night every night? Do they have jobs? If not, what do they do? Sing all the time?

Why don't we meet any common elves? Is it because of the language barrier? How likely was it that Haldir knew Westron?

What is the point of Galadriel's staring contest? Wouldn't that have seemed a bit uncomfortable?

Who rules Lothlorien, Celeborn or Galadriel? Doesn't Galadriel act like she is the senior partner?

Who overruled Galadriel when she wanted Gandalf to head the White Council? Cirdan, who gave his ring to Gandalf? Elrond, Gandalf's good friend? Celeborn? Who else was available to vote against Gandalf, and why would they do so if Cirdan, Elrond, and Galadriel favored him? Or could it be that Gandalf himself declined the honor? If so, why? In hindsight, considering Saruman's betrayal, should Gandalf have been more assertive?

"‘I am no weather-master,’" said Bombadil; "‘nor is aught that goes on two legs.’" Does that mean that Galadriel does not control the weather in Lothlorien? If not, who does, and why does it differ so much from the weather in the surrounding lands?


ArathornJax
Nargothrond


Mar 14 2008, 5:09am

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How did the elves power all their lights? Since they don't need sleep, do they stay up all night every night? Do they have jobs? If not, what do they do? Sing all the time? Perhaps the Elves had "natural gas" lights

Why don't we meet any common elves? Is it because of the language barrier? How likely was it that Haldir knew Westron?
Ok, its all about status baby. When was the last time a noble company made up of a future king, heirs of ancient great kings; a guy who would want to be king if he could (over not just Gondor, but everything); an Elven Prince who is on holiday to kill orcs and such; , a dwarf who has adventure journey envy after not being allowed to be part of Thorin and Co., and 4 Hobbits, one who is the servant to the richest of them all, and the other two destined to take over ruling positions when their mother and father pass away. What would a common elf have in common with these people. Then again, why would a common elf want to associate with them?
So was language a barrier? Sure. Only recently had a new law been passed that required those who in government service to expand themselves. Haldir took an Common Speech Language Learner class and got his CSLL endorsement before he met the fellowship. It was required by the No Elf Left Behind Act.


What is the point of Galadriel's staring contest? Wouldn't that have seemed a bit uncomfortable?
The winner of the contest got the best gift when they departed. At least a gift that met something. I mean look at those she held the stare the longest with:
Aragorn got a sheath that protects his sword and a nice gem that showed she was okay with him marrying her grand-daughter. Do I hear nepotism anyone? Legolas got this cool new bow and some more arrows to go with it for holding his eyes to hers (rumor has it the bow was actually used and an older model). And what a bow it was! Note that the three who could not hold a stare got silver or gold belts. Sam, well, he got dirt, and Gimli, he got nothing at first, and then she felt sorry for him and gave him 3 strands of her hair? I mean what was she thinking inside? "Typical dwarf, blowing more hot air, but this just might be another way to dig on Feanor (who had made a similar request and got denied) that I can give him when I eventually see him again."
Hmmm, makes me wonder with Frodo and perhaps Sam. Was Frodo ever tempted to recycle his gift (as Hobbits do) before he left for Tol Eressea (knowing he took it with him)? What did Sam do with the box that held the dirt? Did he recycle it or pass it down?


Who rules Lothlorien, Celeborn or Galadriel? Doesn't Galadriel act like she is the senior partner?
Want to know if a man is honest in public? Ask him who rules the roost, him or his wife. Regardless of his answer we all know it's the wife so what is different here?

Cheers

" . . . (we are ) too engrossed in thinking of everything as a preparation or training or making one fit -- for what? At any minute it is what we are and are doing, not what we plan to be and do that counts."

J.R.R. Tolkien in his 6 October 1940 letter to his son Michael Tolkien.




(This post was edited by ArathornJax on Mar 14 2008, 5:16am)


Darkstone
Elvenhome


Mar 14 2008, 2:48pm

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How did the elves power all their lights?

Hamsters.


Since they don't need sleep, do they stay up all night every night?

Nope. Dorwinion wine is the Valium of the Eldar.


Do they have jobs?

Sure. Border guards, butlers, rope-makers. Take for example the lembas industry. It's a huge employer: you have corn farmers, mallorn leaf pickers, lembas bakers, teamsters (the Union of the Dark Elves), store greeters, stockers, cashiers, janitors, and management. (Though Elf-Mart prefers to call everyone “Associates”.)


If not, what do they do? Sing all the time?

Yes, the “Tra-la-la-la” Elves are on the dole. But you'll notice there are no "Tra-la-la-la" Elves during LOTR and the War of the Ring. A war footing drastically decreases unemployment.


Why don't we meet any common elves?

Isn’t "common elves" an oxymoron?


Is it because of the language barrier?

Maybe it’s like Beijing during the Olympics: all peasants have been forcibly moved out during the visit of the Fellowship. Or maybe it’s just Rivendell has better unemployment benefits and so all the neer-do-wells go there.


How likely was it that Haldir knew Westron?

I’d assume every patrol on the border would include a specialist who knew Westron. Just like they’d have someone who knew Black Speech in order to interrogate prisoners.


What is the point of Galadriel's staring contest?

The eyes are the window to the soul. She’s reading their souls and taking their measure.


Wouldn't that have seemed a bit uncomfortable?

Aren’t most royal greeting ceremonies uncomfortable?


Who rules Lothlorien, Celeborn or Galadriel?

Yes.


Doesn't Galadriel act like she is the senior partner?

She’s senior partner in these particular circumstances. She’s a Ringbearer, Celeborn is not. She’s more knowledgeable about this sort of thing. So Celeborn defers to her judgement. One of the aspects of true wisdom is the ability to keep your mouth shut over things you don't know anything about.


Who overruled Galadriel when she wanted Gandalf to head the White Council?

I’m betting it was those “other lords of the Eldar” who are mentioned in the Sil.


Cirdan, who gave his ring to Gandalf?

Nope.


Elrond, Gandalf's good friend?

Nope.


Celeborn?

Nope.


Who else was available to vote against Gandalf,

Lessee. Radagast, Glorfindel, Erestor, Thranduil, and “other lords of the Eldar”.


…and why would they do so if Cirdan, Elrond, and Galadriel favored him?

Perhaps that’s exactly why they opposed him. Maybe it didn't have anything to do with Gandalf at all. Maybe it was Galadriel. Maybe at that time rebel Galadriel wasn’t too popular among “other lords of the Eldar” and she was seen as a radical. Thus any choice of hers would be automatically suspect. It happens. The wrong endorsement can ruin a candidacy.


Or could it be that Gandalf himself declined the honor?

I myself can’t read it that way, but that don’t mean anything.


If so, why?

He went to Middle-earth under protest, because he felt he was inadequate to the task. In any case, Curumo is acknowledged as the most able of the Istari, so who is the better choice? You go with the best qualified.



In hindsight, considering Saruman's betrayal, should Gandalf have been more assertive?

Hindsight is 20/20. If you go that route then Gandalf should have been the first Istari to volunteer to go to M-e instead of hiding under the table and being the last.


"‘I am no weather-master,’" said Bombadil; "‘nor is aught that goes on two legs.’" Does that mean that Galadriel does not control the weather in Lothlorien?

Galadriel is a lady. And, as Tolkien would be very much cognizant, a lady does not have “legs”, she has “limbs”. (Come to think on it, how many limbs does Galadriel have? Does Tolkien ever specifically say?) Anyway, Galadriel is not a weather master. She is a weather mistress.


If not, who does,…

She does.


…and why does it differ so much from the weather in the surrounding lands?

It’s the feminine touch.

******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”



(This post was edited by Darkstone on Mar 14 2008, 2:50pm)


visualweasel
Nargothrond


Mar 14 2008, 3:05pm

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"‘I am no weather-master,’" said Bombadil; "‘nor is aught that goes on two legs.’" Does that mean that Galadriel does not control the weather in Lothlorien?

Galadriel is a lady. And, as Tolkien would be very much cognizant, a lady does not have “legs”, she has “limbs”.



Neither legs, nor limbs, but gams. At least, that would certainly have been the case had Marilyn Monroe ever played her (cf. Arthur R. Weir, "No Monroe in Lothlorien!"). And was Galadriel a lady, or was she a dame? The kid certainly has spunk! *drains double bourbon*

Wink

As to the Bombadil question, I think there's a tendency to view his statements as omniscient truth, but couldn't it just be his opinion that nothing on two legs, limbs, gams, stems, or what have you, can control the weather? Couldn't he just be making conversation? After all, it can be hard to reconcile total omniscience with those endless refrains of "Hey dol, merry dol, skip to the loo, my darling" ...

Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish


FarFromHome
Doriath


Mar 14 2008, 6:44pm

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How did the elves power all their lights?

They have some magical "technology", something natural I'm sure - no carbon footprint for them! But the hobbits didn't understand it, and so it didn't get written about...Wink

Since they don't need sleep, do they stay up all night every night?

They like the night best of all, don't they? I think they stay up and watch the stars. Better than TV!

Do they have jobs?

They do all kinds of natural things - Galadriel and her ladies weave magical fabrics for cloaks. Someone makes brooches, some bake lembas and make all the other wonderful foods and drinks of the Elves. There are rope-makers, gardeners (those trees don't stay that beautiful without a bit of Elven input, I'm sure), people who maintain those green city walls, plus guards of course. Whatever they do, I'm sure it all is done in harmony with nature.

If not, what do they do? Sing all the time?

They probably sing quite a bit too, even while they're working!

Why don't we meet any common elves? Is it because of the language barrier? How likely was it that Haldir knew Westron?

These might be common elves:

The Elves spread for them a pavilion among the trees near the fountain, and in it they laid soft couches; then speaking words of peace with fair elvish voices they left them.

I'm not sure whether the "words of peace" would have been in Westron or not. Somehow I think the meaning would come through anyway.

What is the point of Galadriel's staring contest? Wouldn't that have seemed a bit uncomfortable?

I think the discomfort is the point. Celeborn and Galadriel may be gracious, but they are very powerful, and potentially very dangerous. They can make you uncomfortable in such a gracious way that you really can't refuse. And afterwards you'll never be quite the same.

Who rules Lothlorien, Celeborn or Galadriel? Doesn't Galadriel act like she is the senior partner?

Galadriel seems to defer to Celeborn pro forma. But yes, I agree she rules the roost. Not an uncommon arrangement, I'd say.

Who overruled Galadriel when she wanted Gandalf to head the White Council? Cirdan, who gave his ring to Gandalf? Elrond, Gandalf's good friend? Celeborn? Who else was available to vote against Gandalf, and why would they do so if Cirdan, Elrond, and Galadriel favored him? Or could it be that Gandalf himself declined the honor? If so, why? In hindsight, considering Saruman's betrayal, should Gandalf have been more assertive?

In hindsight, a mistake was clearly made. But we aren't likely to hear any details of the political manoeuverings in this story - the Wise keep up their appearance of harmony and wisdom in front of ordinary folk like hobbits - and this story is written by hobbits, who see the Elves as too far above their "likes and dislikes" to be criticized or questioned. There might be answers in the Sil or other histories written by the Elves themselves - there you do get to see the more "human" side of Elves.

"‘I am no weather-master,’" said Bombadil; "‘nor is aught that goes on two legs.’" Does that mean that Galadriel does not control the weather in Lothlorien? If not, who does, and why does it differ so much from the weather in the surrounding lands?

I don't think she controls it - she works with it, it wants to do her will. (And I like VisualWeasel's point that Tom B. may not always know everything. We find out, in fact, that the Elves and Treebeard have misconceptions about each other. Why not Tom B. too?)

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


Dreamdeer
Doriath


Mar 14 2008, 7:33pm

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How did the elves power all their lights?

Mallorn-nut oil? I do not see them as electrical lights, but oil lamps like Aladdin might find.

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Since they don't need sleep, do they stay up all night every night?

They do need sleep, they can just go longer than we can without it. Didn't some disaster or other result in the Silmarillion, when elves had to travel so long and hard that they all fell asleep exhausted without posting a guard? Also, Tolkien specifically says that they sleep with their eyes open (I imagine them blinking rather slowly and steadily--otherwise their eyes would hurt in the morning!)

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Do they have jobs? If not, what do they do? Sing all the time?

I imagine that they work, but can't quite see them as having "jobs" in the same sense that we do--meaning systematized employment, within set hours, for an employer who doles out payment in metal tokens or slips of paper to symbolize his estimate of the worth of their labors, take it or leave it. Galadriel herself works at the loom when occasion demands, as we shall see later. Elves spin ropes, do smithwork and woodwork, grow food ("If I could grow apples like that, I'd call myself a gardener!") and engage in other practical pursuits. I expect that most of them are self-employed. They do seem to have some commerce, as is seen by the Mirkwood elves who import all of their wine (grapevines don't grow too well under the forest canopy) from human merchants. They do, however, manage it wisely enough to allow plenty of time for recreation. And remember, Bilbo happened to arrive at Rivendell the first time during an elvish holiday, so of course the elves were all out singing! They were probably acting so silly (and even sometimes downright rude, making fun of the visitors) because elvish celebrations do seem to involve copious amounts of wine.

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Why don't we meet any common elves? Is it because of the language barrier?

Haldir was a common elf, along with all of his company. And so were the elves who helped bring out the supplies for the next stage of the journey, including the one who chatted up Sam about rope-making. And no doubt they dealt with many others unmentioned in the book, in the course of their stay. But the fellowship didn't come here for sight-seeing and visiting the locals. They came on serious business that required close contact with the local Authorities, and that was the main conversation that the account had to zoom in on as most relevant to telling the story.

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How likely was it that Haldir knew Westron?

It ought to have been mandatory for border guards, if only to facillitate interrogating prisoners. At least the captain had to know some Westron, to do his job.

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What is the point of Galadriel's staring contest? Wouldn't that have seemed a bit uncomfortable?

Of course it was uncomfortable--she was interrogating them telepathically! Few find interrogation pleasant, no matter how humanely managed. She had too much at stake to beat about the bush, to worry about their privacy rights, and so forth. I suppose an elvish lawyer would mention that they ceded their right to mental privacy when they agreed to an audience with her--that is what an "audience" would mean for elves, whose "audial" abilities do not limit themselves to ears alone.

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Who rules Lothlorien, Celeborn or Galadriel? Doesn't Galadriel act like she is the senior partner?

It says much about our society that we still must ask this question, when logically of course it would be Galadriel. The only reason it would even come up is that she happens to be female and married. Why wouldn't Galadriel act like the senior partner? She is the senior partner. She is the oldest and most powerful elf surviving in Middle Earth, the last of the Noldor rebel leaders (unless you count Maglor, who at this point is a broken-down hobo capable of nothing but wandering the coast singing sad songs.) She personally studied under both Yavanna and Aule in Valinor, under the light of the Two Trees, and knows more than any other elf on that side of the ocean. Also, if half the tales be true ("Unfinished Tales", that is) she may well have led in battle as a general! Celeborn no doubt feels honored that she married him, when to the eyes of many he was so far below her station--especially after she turned down Feanor! The books describe him as a scholar among the elves who did not make it to Valinor, and I am sure this helped considerably to bridge the gap between them, but I imagine much of their courtship conversation involved him asking questions of her, and marveling at the knowledge available to her. He must have had some certain something that made him more loveable than her powerful (and arrogant) peers--the perfect antidote, perhaps, to doomful Noldor pride. Or maybe he just looked irresistably sexy in green tights (you know elves, once they have sex with someone, it's over, they're married, no turning back.) But seriously, he is not a leader-type, and she is. He is the prince consort, and proud to get it.

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Who overruled Galadriel when she wanted Gandalf to head the White Council? Cirdan, who gave his ring to Gandalf? Elrond, Gandalf's good friend? Celeborn? Who else was available to vote against Gandalf, and why would they do so if Cirdan, Elrond, and Galadriel favored him? Or could it be that Gandalf himself declined the honor? If so, why? In hindsight, considering Saruman's betrayal, should Gandalf have been more assertive?

Just because you're good friends with someone doesn't mean they will vote you into office. Befriending someone and putting them in charge are two different things. Saruman had the better credentials. Gandalf might have messed up his own chances, himself, without necessarily declining outright, simply because he didn't want to be there in the first place. It might have been a relief to him when Saruman stepped up to the plate.

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"‘I am no weather-master,’" said Bombadil; "‘nor is aught that goes on two legs.’" Does that mean that Galadriel does not control the weather in Lothlorien? If not, who does, and why does it differ so much from the weather in the surrounding lands?


Perhaps she persuades the weather, rather than masters it. That sounds more like elvish magic, as distinct from Morgul-type magic, for which we inaccurately use the same word (as Galadriel pointed out.) The air-maias that rule weather might simply like her, and indulge her often whenever it doesn't conflict with their own agendas too much. Also consider that Lorien does not so much offer things different from the outside world (mallorn trees being an exception) as reveal the same things in a different and more wholesome light. When it rains in Lorien, one is more likely to appreciate rain, and the same for sunshine, fog, snow, and any other weather that might transpire there. it would seem like good weather all the time, every day. It's all a matter of perspective. (I write this from southern Arizona, where if somebody says, "What a beautiful day it is today!" they usually mean overcast. When the heat climbs above body temperature and stays fixed there for months, you learn to appreciate "gloomy" weather.)

My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.


Dreamdeer
Doriath


Mar 14 2008, 7:41pm

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Can anyone tell me how to create paragraphs when you divy up a quote into segments and write between them?

My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.


N.E. Brigand
Gondolin


Mar 14 2008, 7:43pm

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I paste material I want quoted between

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<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Mar. 10-16 for "The Mirror of Galadriel".


Tolkien Forever
Mithlond

Mar 14 2008, 11:12pm

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I'm reading TFOR to my son & we are right here - we actually read the 'mirror' part last night, so this stuff is fresh in mind without having to reread it (much, lol).......

How did the elves power all their lights?

I assume their lights are all the small type like Haldir or his brother's lamp in the tree the first night in Lorien.
I assume they are a type of Feanorean lamp, but not the same, as even in the First Age, the secret of the making of those lamps was lost.


Since they don't need sleep, do they stay up all night every night? Do they have jobs? If not, what do they do? Sing all the time?

Of course they have jobs. Haldir & his brothers watch the borders. at least several hundred must be sent to waylay the Orcs of Moria & destroy them.
There's the gathering of food, although Tolkien doesn't get into it much except a brief mention in CoH about Fields that are tended about Nagothrond.
And yes, as The fellowship found out in Rivendel, Elves do like to sing alot - funny Tolkien never mentions it in The Simarillion or Children of Hurin.
Also, although Elves don't sleep, they do 'rest their minds in the strange pathes of Elvish dreams' as Legolas does at times in TLOR.

Why don't we meet any common elves? Is it because of the language barrier? How likely was it that Haldir knew Westron?

Well, we do meet common Elves: Haldir Rumil & their brother.....
But, in TLOR & Tolkien's other writings, it's very common that the characters introduced & about which things revolve are all the 'celebrities'.

What is the point of Galadriel's staring contest? Wouldn't that have seemed a bit uncomfortable?

The point is spelled out in the text: she is testing the members of the Fellowship by (pretending to be) offering them 'the desires of their hearts' versus the toils of self-sacrifice for the good of their fellow inhabitants of Middle-earth.....

And yes, it says they are uncomfortable by her glance - just as many folks cannot stand when someone looks them straight in the eye when talking to them......

Who rules Lothlorien, Celeborn or Galadriel? Doesn't Galadriel act like she is the senior partner?

They rule together. Galadriel says Celeborn is the 'wisest of the Elves' of Middle-earth, & a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings'.
Celeborn first adresses the Company & seems to sit in the seat of authority, yet everyone senses deep down that Galdriel wields the real (magical) power even though she defers to the 'kingly' power of Celeborn.

Who overruled Galadriel when she wanted Gandalf to head the White Council? Cirdan, who gave his ring to Gandalf? Elrond, Gandalf's good friend? Celeborn? Who else was available to vote against Gandalf, and why would they do so if Cirdan, Elrond, and Galadriel favored him? Or could it be that Gandalf himself declined the honor? If so, why? In hindsight, considering Saruman's betrayal, should Gandalf have been more assertive?

Tolkien says somewhere in one of his supplemental writings that Gandalf would've declined the honor anyhow because he would not owe his allegiance to anyone or organization save those who sent him. Yet, that is not the question - Who over-ruled Galadriel's wishes is & this must've happened.
We can assume that Saruman, 'the Head of his Order' & 'his pride grew apace' of his 'knowledge of Ringlore' must've wanted it.

Now, as the chief of the Istari, Gandalf would defer to Saruman & the other Elves would value his opinion greatly.
Cirdan, it says in Unfinished Tales, saw when Gandalf landed at the Havens, the 'Greatest Spirit' of the Istari (and obviously, as keeper of his Ring, gave it freely) & we can safely assume Cirdan would support Gandalf too - or maybe not. As one who could see 'further & deeper than any in Middle-earth, perhaps Cirdan knew Gandalf should not be in a position of administrative leadership & owe allegiance to those of Middle-earth?

Elrond would certainly carry alot of clout, so we must assume that he was behind Saruman. Perhaps Celeborn was too?

"‘I am no weather-master,’" said Bombadil; "‘nor is aught that goes on two legs.’" Does that mean that Galadriel does not control the weather in Lothlorien? If not, who does, and why does it differ so much from the weather in the surrounding lands?

I think it's that the power of her Ring that holds sway over the land keeps the weather milder. Tom Bombadil is correct that nobody in themselves can control the weather. Galadriel in herself has not the power - it's the Ring that has the power to enchant the land of Lorien, just as the Ring of Elrond enchants Rivendel in different ways, including controlling the River Bruinen.


(This post was edited by Tolkien Forever on Mar 14 2008, 11:15pm)


Beren IV
Mithlond


Mar 15 2008, 5:59am

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Border guard parties speak Common (and Celeborn *should* be happy) [In reply to] Can't Post

How did the elves power all their lights? Since they don't need sleep, do they stay up all night every night? Do they have jobs? If not, what do they do? Sing all the time?

We know that Durin's folk used lamps made out of crystal and it is implied in UT that they are powered by magic. I would not be at all surprised if the Elvish lamps are also magical: the light may originate from a candle or similar flame within, but they are under an enchantment that allows them to burn indefinitely.


Why don't we meet any common elves? Is it because of the language barrier? How likely was it that Haldir knew Westron?

Because Tolkien never thought to mention them? Wink

I honestly think that's the real reason. That said, they probably do speak Sindarin or Sylvan and not Westron. Haldir and his brothers may have been common, though. As for the likelihood that Haldir would know Westron, I would say virtually certain: it would be a good idea for your border guards to have at least one of each troop speak a language that prettymuch anyone travelling from afar will understand. The guard party was assembled with this in mind.


What is the point of Galadriel's staring contest? Wouldn't that have seemed a bit uncomfortable?

It's a sort of a test, to remind members of the Fellowship of the gravity of what they are doing, as well as its danger. It's also a form of private communication.


Who rules Lothlorien, Celeborn or Galadriel? Doesn't Galadriel act like she is the senior partner?

Both - I get the impression from the interaction between them that the abilities of C&G complement each-other. I would say that Celeborn probably "rules" in secular matters and Galadriel in religious or otherwise magical matters. Really, I don't think that Lórien needs much rulership per say, but Celeborn is the general in command of the army, and Galadriel is the high priestess who leads the magi.


Who overruled Galadriel when she wanted Gandalf to head the White Council? Cirdan, who gave his ring to Gandalf? Elrond, Gandalf's good friend? Celeborn? Who else was available to vote against Gandalf, and why would they do so if Cirdan, Elrond, and Galadriel favored him? Or could it be that Gandalf himself declined the honor? If so, why? In hindsight, considering Saruman's betrayal, should Gandalf have been more assertive?

Saruman was chosen to lead the Istari, I believe, although I do not know why him. It may have been Gandalf gainsaying himself, actually.


"‘I am no weather-master,’" said Bombadil; "‘nor is aught that goes on two legs.’" Does that mean that Galadriel does not control the weather in Lothlorien? If not, who does, and why does it differ so much from the weather in the surrounding lands?

Galadriel evidently controls the climate in Lórien, but honestly, I think that Bombadil's comment here is a clear contradiction to what appears later on. Sauron has two legs, and he controls weather. And let us not forget that Manwë normally takes on an Elf-like form, and He is the real weather-master!

Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist


Dreamdeer
Doriath


Mar 15 2008, 4:47pm

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Silmarillion sing-along [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien does mention singing in the Silmarillion, lots of times. Maglor is a mighty singer. And Finrod bonded with the first men he met by singing. And various magical battles are conducted through song (if I recall correctly, Finrod loses one to Morgoth, and Luthien wins one.) And Luthien (whose power seems to be of song) sings so movingly that even Mandos relents and gives Beren back to her to live again.

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squire
Gondolin


Mar 15 2008, 5:31pm

Post #12 of 24 (2108 views)
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Elven song in the Silmarillion is treated differently than in LotR [In reply to] Can't Post

You're right that Tolkien mentions Elvish singing in his Silmarillion tales.

But Tolkien Forever is also right, in a way. In the Sil we never (almost never?) hear the Elves singing, either by description or with explicit passages of lyrics. What TF is noticing is the non-Elvish perspective of LotR. The mortals (hobbits, men) remark upon the constant presence of song in the Elvish realms, and the author sometimes gives us examples. But in the Sil, which is a compendium of mostly Elvish tales, the Elves (or Elf-friends who interact with them) take the Elvish lifestyle for granted. Why mention the constant presence of songs in the Elvish realms of the Sil? Like Sam says, it's like food or water to them, and we don't get descriptions of those either.

As well, the Sil is just more legendary in tone, and the "human touch" of stopping for a song now and then doesn't seem to fit into the literary style that Tolkien established for it.

Which is a shame, perhaps. I've remarked before on the irony that, when Tolkien originally conceived the Sil legendarium, he felt it should be a mixture of story and song. In the end, under C. Tolkien's editorship following his father's most recent organization of the material, there are almost no songs in the Sil. Of course, there are actually quite a lot of poems or lyrics that would certainly come under some kind of expanded Sil's umbrella as being "Translations from the Elvish"! (See HoME if you want to read them. I've often giggled over the idea of the popular reception that a 1977 Silmarillion would have gotten, had it included substantial excerpts from Tolkien's verse epics, the Lay of the Children of Hurin and the Lay of Leithian.)



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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond

Mar 15 2008, 6:40pm

Post #13 of 24 (2082 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

Squire says it right.....

I meant the actual songs or poems.

Other than the (sorta) poem of Finrod vs. Sauron, The Silmarillion is quite empty.

I guess it is the 'remote' nature the book is supposed to have in being an ancient history book passed down 6500 years?


sador
Gondolin

Mar 16 2008, 12:53pm

Post #14 of 24 (2100 views)
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Many questions, a few answers [In reply to] Can't Post

Since they don't need sleep, do they stay up all night every night?
Are you sure they don't need sleep? It's true that Legolas is sometimes awake all night, and his repose (as described in 'The Riders of Rohan') is not what we would call sleep, but from the Silmarillion, and even from other chapters in LOTR it appears they do need sleep. Perhaps they can go without for longer times, and refresh themselves in different ways - but I think they do sleep.
If not, what do they do? Sing all the time?
Read TORN, don't you think?
Why don't we meet any common elves?
Tolkien didn't bother to describe them. We don't really meet any common Rohirrim, and precious few common Gondorians. One Lindir doesn't make a difference between Rivendell and Lorien.
What is the point of Galadriel's staring contest? Wouldn't that have seemed a bit uncomfortable?
Well, to read thier minds. "For her own good purposes", as Boromir says.
If so, why?
According to UT, Manwe sent Gandalf as the third. Varda said something enigmatic, but unlike Galadriel - she does defer to her husband.
In hindsight, considering Saruman's betrayal, should Gandalf have been more assertive?
We can never know, but probably not. Had he schemed for authority, I guess he wouldn't pass his future tests as well.
If not, who does, and why does it differ so much from the weather in the surrounding lands?
One might say Nenya does. But I prefer to think Tom was wrong.

"lesser men with spades might have served you better" - Boromir


a.s.
Doriath


Mar 16 2008, 1:56pm

Post #15 of 24 (2065 views)
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that certainly keeps *me* up late!! [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
If not, what do they do? Sing all the time?


Read TORN, don't you think?





Laugh

a.s.

"an seileachan"

"Good night, little girls, thank the Lord you are well!
Now go to sleep" said Miss Clavel.
And she turned out the light and shut the door,
And that's all there is. There isn't any more.


a.s.
Doriath


Mar 16 2008, 2:03pm

Post #16 of 24 (2068 views)
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beings for whom a century is a day... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Since they don't need sleep, do they stay up all night every night? Do they have jobs? If not, what do they do? Sing all the time?




They may sleep; elves do elsewhere in the writings. But beings who have such altered lifespans (immortal as they are) would have strange sleep patterns anyway, don't you think? If a century is a day (or hour, I'm not being exact) then their need for sleep is surely different than the human need.

Sure, they have "jobs"; we see some in this chapter. Some guards, someone who built the flets and maintains the ladders; someone who cooks lembas.



Quote
"‘I am no weather-master,’" said Bombadil; "‘nor is aught that goes on two legs.’" Does that mean that Galadriel does not control the weather in Lothlorien? If not, who does, and why does it differ so much from the weather in the surrounding lands?




This is a very interesting question. Does Galadriel master time, for instance? Time is different in Lorien...or is it? Is time different or just the experience of time? Perhaps Galadriel (and her ring) control the experience of time in Lorien, as opposed to controlling time itself.

The same may be true of the weather: Galadriel can't be a "weather-master", but within her limited realm she can control the way you experience it.

Just sort of a glimmer of a thought, not a fully formed hypothesis.

a.s.

"an seileachan"

"Good night, little girls, thank the Lord you are well!
Now go to sleep" said Miss Clavel.
And she turned out the light and shut the door,
And that's all there is. There isn't any more.


FarFromHome
Doriath


Mar 16 2008, 3:38pm

Post #17 of 24 (2074 views)
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That sounds right [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Galadriel can't be a "weather-master", but within her limited realm she can control the way you experience it.



It's not as if the sun always shines in Lorien:

All the while that they dwelt there the sun shone clear, save for a gentle rain that fell at times, and passed away leaving all things fresh and clean.

It's just that, when the sun doesn't shine, you enjoy the rain.

(And I'd never got the impression that the difference in the weather was hugely different from what might occur naturally - a sheltered, wooded valley would always tend be milder than the exposed mountain slopes around it. The air is described as "cool and soft, as if it were early spring", so only a little ahead of the season, which would not be uncommon in late winter in sheltered valleys, I'd say.)


...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


Curious
Gondolin


Mar 17 2008, 8:05pm

Post #18 of 24 (2052 views)
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So all those lights are [In reply to] Can't Post

glowing computer screens? Smile


Curious
Gondolin


Mar 18 2008, 3:35pm

Post #19 of 24 (2110 views)
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Manwe is the Weathermaster. Sauron is a rebel. Galadriel and Gandalf [In reply to] Can't Post

and Elrond all seem to control the weather (Gandalf calls down lightning at Weathertop and seems to have control over a storm when he heals Theoden), but I suggest that they do so with Manwe's blessing. If, like Sauron, they defied Manwe, they would soon discover who is the Weathermaster, as Sauron did everytime his East Wind was blown away. That's my solution to the seeming contradiction of Bombadil's pronouncement, anyway. And by the way, Bombadil's pronouncement is yet another hint that Higher Powers who do not go on two legs play some part in the story.


N.E. Brigand
Gondolin


Mar 22 2009, 8:00am

Post #20 of 24 (2022 views)
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The elves must have made contact with outsiders, to keep up with the language. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin


Mar 22 2009, 8:00am

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Who would Frodo relinquish the phial to, if he had given it as a mathom? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin


Mar 22 2009, 8:01am

Post #22 of 24 (2025 views)
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They must have saved a lot of old lamps [In reply to] Can't Post

…if the secret of their making has been lost for 7,000 years.


Quote
And yes, as the Fellowship found out in Rivendel, Elves do like to sing alot – funny Tolkien never mentions it in The Simarillion or The Children of Húrin.


Well, what was published in The Silmarillion of 1977 –that is, the “Quenta Silmarillion”– is meant to be a distanced work, like the LotR appendices, where songs are also absent. But The Children of Húrin, which would have been part of a complete “Silmarillion” that Tolkien envisaged, is more a immediate work, and you’re right that its unmusicalness is notable.

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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin


Mar 22 2009, 8:02am

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Tolkien’s intent was probably to include the full “Lay of Leithian” [In reply to] Can't Post

…and not just an excerpt: as Charles Noad has explained, Tolkien’s ideal Silmarillion would probably include both the “Quenta Silmarillion” as an epitomic history of the Elder Days; plus three or four “great tales”, one of which would be the poetic story of beren and Lúthien, to which he returned in the early 1950s; plus a large selection of appendical material, including the four texts published with the “Quenta” in 1977, along with a “Tale of Years”, the “Athrabeth”, and some linguistic works.

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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin


Mar 22 2009, 8:03am

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In Farley Mowat’s “Lost in the Barrens” (1956) [In reply to] Can't Post

…which I read under the title Two Against the North, the young heroes find protection against the winter when they find a timbered valley secreted within the Canadian tundra.

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