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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Mar 4 2008, 9:09pm
Post #1 of 25
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Lothlórien, part IV: Songs, tales & water
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They come upon another stream, Nimrodel, running swiftly to join the Silverlode. This stream is remembered in song among the Woodland Elves for its former glory and its ability to heal the weary. Legolas leads the company over the river. Wading into the water, Frodo feels that the “stain of travel and all weariness was washed from his limbs”
Legolas recounts more tales of Lothlórien and sings a song of the maiden who bore the same name as the stream and how she was separated from her lover, Amroth.
After singing the song, Legolas explains that it’s about how sorrow came upon Lothlórien when evil was awakened in the mountains, how many of the elves of Nimrodel’s kindred departed and now the only memory left of Nimrodel & Amroth are the the voice of Nimrodel heard in the water and the voice of Amroth borne by the wind from the Sea. He also tells the company of the custom of the Elves of Lórien of dwelling in the trees, and tells how they “did not build strong places of stone like the Dwarves ... before the Shadow came”. Gimli agrees that even now it can be safer to live in the trees than sitting on the ground, thinking of the pursuing orcs.
D. Lothlórien seems to be the original kingdom of Legolas’ people. How do you imagine that the tales and songs of the Elves of Mirkwood are commemorated - what type of occasions, are any of the songs written down etc?
E. The lay of Nimrodel is sung in Westron. Do you believe that the tales of the former kingdom of Lórien were known originally by Men as well as dwarves? Would any of these tales be known or heard (if only as fragments) by the Men of Wilderland or hobbits like the young Smeagol?
F. On entering Lothlórien Legolas is leading the way and occupies a more prominent place in the story. Do you enjoy this change? Do you find that you get more insight into Legolas’ as a character than before?
G. Is there a structural resemblance between how the Lay of Nimrodel & The tale of
Nimrodel & Amroth vs. the song & tale of Beren & Lúthien are presented to the
reader? What would be the differences (disregarding the quality of the poetry)?
What sense of depth is achieved by the story of Nimrodel & Amroth and are you left
with a feeling of wanting to know more about them?
I. The water of Nimrodel seems to have a particular ability to heal weariness. Do you see any symbolism on Tolkien’s part in the crossing of Nimrodel?
J. It is well known that Tolkien loved trees. In this chapter water and streams seem to be equally important and a number of different waters are mentioned. Do you pay attention to the concrete descriptions of the qualities of waters and streams in the story (like their courses, what is their source, if they flow swiftly or slowly, the colour of the water)? Other comments about water in this chapter?
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 4 2008, 10:12pm
Post #2 of 25
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D. Lothlórien seems to be the original kingdom of Legolas’ people. How do you imagine that the tales and songs of the Elves of Mirkwood are commemorated - what type of occasions, are any of the songs written down etc?
Are they? I seem to recall that Legolas's people are Moriquendi, mingled with Silvan elves who had become disenchanted with the supposedly superior, Valar-taught Noldor, greater both in learning and in vice, and they fled the wars of the west. Although I expect that what is now Lothlorien and Mirkwood (or Greenwood, if you prefer) used to be one great forest. In any case, the Mirkwood elves are somewhat more "wild", as "The Hobbit" puts it. I imagine them maintaining more of an oral tradition than a written one, although a prince like Legolas would certainly be literate. They would have much to commemorate in their own right, defending their place in the forest against the Necromancer.
E. The lay of Nimrodel is sung in Westron. Do you believe that the tales of the former kingdom of Lórien were known originally by Men as well as dwarves? Would any of these tales be known or heard (if only as fragments) by the Men of Wilderland or hobbits like the young Smeagol?
Those men and dwarves who had commerce with elves would certainly know elvish songs, at least for a few generations. Some few families might even pass them on longer. Dwarves, however, would not likely pass on any songs about how dwarves stirred up trouble and elves had to flee. Smeagol did seem to know bits and pieces of old tales, and apparently greatly enjoyed them before he came to enjoy nothing save the Ring. Hobbits did retain garbled bits and pieces (For instance, "The Shadow Bride" seems to be a distortion of the tale of Eol and Aredhel, although her white gown has become gray in the retelling) and as a proto-hobbit (prehistoric hobbit--at least by the standards of their history?) he would have been even closer to the originals.
(I often wondered what tales hobbits and men might have told of Turin Turambar outside of anything written down in the Silmarillion. Comparing someone to Turin seemed to be accounted a compliment by both; plainly they admired him greatly. In the Sil itself the tale makes frequent reference to, "And many songs were sung of his deeds at (fill in the blank)" without providing the details. It almost seems that the elves wrote the tale of Turin as an antidote to hero-worship among mortals, filling in the sordid gaps that men did not want to remember.)
F. On entering Lothlórien Legolas is leading the way and occupies a more prominent place in the story. Do you enjoy this change? Do you find that you get more insight into Legolas’ as a character than before?
Just a little bit. He doesn't fully develop for me until he starts to pal around with Gimli. I would have liked to see more of how that strange friendship came about, personally, although I imagine that Tolkien already had too much on his hands to go into any more detail than he did.
G. Is there a structural resemblance between how the Lay of Nimrodel & The tale of
Nimrodel & Amroth vs. the song & tale of Beren & Lúthien are presented to the
reader? What would be the differences (disregarding the quality of the poetry)?
What sense of depth is achieved by the story of Nimrodel & Amroth and are you left
with a feeling of wanting to know more about them?
Well, the Lay of Nimrodel is a simpler, more direct song, less structurally complex, less dense in imagery, and occasionally interrupting its own narrative flow with things that should have been mentioned earlier, but it has a sort of naive charm--a folk-song of the campfire, rather than a concert-song of the Halls of Fire. It does add to the depth of the story that distinctions exist not just between the songs of elves and men and dwarves, but that even within the communities of the various species subcultures exist with artistic differences.
As to the story itself, it does add the immediacy of actually happening in the land where the characters now walk--once again we have that glimpse of a further horizon beyond the bounds of the story. When I first read it, I was young enough to not pay much attention to what, as a preadolescent, I regarded as a "mushy" story. But later, when I read of his kinship to Galadriel and Celeborn, the story held a whole lot more meaning for me. I. The water of Nimrodel seems to have a particular ability to heal weariness. Do you see any symbolism on Tolkien’s part in the crossing of Nimrodel?
That they have now entered Galadriel's proud imitation of the Undying Lands, with its ghost of Valinor-like properties maintained by the power of her ring. J. It is well known that Tolkien loved trees. In this chapter water and streams seem to be equally important and a number of different waters are mentioned. Do you pay attention to the concrete descriptions of the qualities of waters and streams in the story (like their courses, what is their source, if they flow swiftly or slowly, the colour of the water)? Other comments about water in this chapter?
I would expect Lothlorien to be a watery place, because Galadriel maintains it with the Ring of Water. Similarly, her power manifests in a mirror of water, boats that cannot capsize, water-like cloaks, and (in the appendices or the Silmarillion, I forget which) a mist that concealed good men from their adversaries at a crucial point in a journey. Rivendell, in contrast, is a steep place built into a ravine like an eagle's eyre. And Elrond's powers lie in the airy realm of lore, song, and speech (we won't add that he can get rather windy!)
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Mar 4 2008, 10:22pm)
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ArathornJax
Nargothrond
Mar 5 2008, 5:14am
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D. Lothlorien is not the original kingdom of Legolas' people. Tolkien makes it quite clear in Unfinished Tales that Orophor lived in Greenwood the Great on the east side of the Anduin, and in the second age, moved his people north of Gladden Fields. This was probably due to the emergence of evil again coming from the south. In the third age we can assume Thranduil moved farther north eventually reaching his current location.
Thus Legolas and his kin were kin and neighbors of Lothlorien and the Elves there.
E. Men who had dwellings with the Elves probably knew the stories and histories. As time went by though, many of these would be lost in the archives of men, much like Isildur's record on the ring. As for Hobbits, I think only those in the Shire and round about (as they became stable and quit migrating) were interested in history, and then it was family history and genelogy.
F. It is an expected change. Gimli took the lead with Gandalf in Moria since a dwarfs head was better in the dwarf halls and mines than a man, elf or hobbit. So it would reason that Legolas (with Aragorn) would take a leading role since Legolas would have a better head for working in an elven wood.
G. Structural resemblance yes, but both are quite different. The Lay of Beren and Luthien ends in hope and in love that is united in all ways. In the Tale of Nimrodel and Amroth /Lay of Nimrodel they end with separation, love and life lost. So because they are different and end differently, they do invoke an interest to want to know more.
H. Lost
I. The company is in need of healing and the waters signify that the company is going to receive healing here. Another view might be that before passing into Lothlorien, the company needs to washed from the outside world's influences, problems and weariness so they don't bring it into Lothlorien.
J. Water in the trilogy plays a huge part. The waters at the ford stop the Black Riders and wash them away. It is from corrupted (not flowing naturally) water that is blocked that the Watcher attacks. Then it is water that cleanses or refreshes the party as they journey into Lorien. It is the calm water in the mirror that warns Sam and Frodo (and foreshadows for the reader) what lies ahead. An interesting point here is after the chapter on Moria, which is Norse based, we get into Lothlorien which has many Celtic themes in it. In Celtic myth, water is often connected to a woman or women as a symbol of power and authority. It is by water that the company leaves Lothlorien to begin the next segment of their journey. On last comparison is Avalon. Avalon I know is often equated with Valinor or Eressa, but in this analogy I think we could compare Avalon to Lothlorien. How? Both Avalon and Lothlorien are surrounded by water and only those permitted may enter. So both places are a refuge from the outside world, and a place of healing. Thus water plays an important part here from many aspects.
" . . . (we are ) too engrossed in thinking of everything as a preparation or training or making one fit -- for what? At any minute it is what we are and are doing, not what we plan to be and do that counts."
J.R.R. Tolkien in his 6 October 1940 letter to his son Michael Tolkien.
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Mar 5 2008, 7:26am
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the wanderings of the Silvan Elves
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D. Lothlórien seems to be the original kingdom of Legolas’ people. How do you imagine that the tales and songs of the Elves of Mirkwood are commemorated - what type of occasions, are any of the songs written down etc?
Are they? I seem to recall that Legolas's people are Moriquendi, mingled with Silvan elves who had become disenchanted with the supposedly superior, Valar-taught Noldor, greater both in learning and in vice, and they fled the wars of the west. Although I expect that what is now Lothlorien and Mirkwood (or Greenwood, if you prefer) used to be one great forest
Well, I suppose my statement was a bit inaccurate, I was only speculating. Within the context of the story I took the sentence "whence we wandered long ago" as saying that his people once used to live there and remember many stories about it, as a place of great importance. This leaves room for many interpretations. Like you say, Greenwood & Lothlórien probably used to be one forest and the Silvan Elves probably wandered around from place to place, not settling permanently, at least that is what I remember from the Silmarillion.
E.
It almost seems that the elves wrote the tale of Turin as an antidote to hero-worship among mortals, filling in the sordid gaps that men did not want to remember.)
Great point!
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Mar 5 2008, 8:23am
Post #5 of 25
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The Ghosts of Elven Communites Past
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D. Lothlórien seems to be the original kingdom of Legolas’ people. How do you imagine that the tales and songs of the Elves of Mirkwood are commemorated - what type of occasions, are any of the songs written down etc?
It's not the original kingdom of Legolas' people. Legolas is technically a Sinda, but he's effectively Sylvan, even Avari, until he hears the gulls in Pelargir. The Galadhrim are Sylvan Elves who are becoming more Sindar-like, not the other way around.
The original kingdom of the Sylvan Elves was Greenleaves, now Mirkwood. The original kingdom of the Sindar was Doriath!
E. The lay of Nimrodel is sung in Westron. Do you believe that the tales of the former kingdom of Lórien were known originally by Men as well as dwarves? Would any of these tales be known or heard (if only as fragments) by the Men of Wilderland or hobbits like the young Smeagol?
I'll bet that the Beornings know it, or have a version of it. I would not be surprised if the Hobbits of the Gladden Fields knew of it as well.
F. On entering Lothlórien Legolas is leading the way and occupies a more prominent place in the story. Do you enjoy this change? Do you find that you get more insight into Legolas’ as a character than before?
Moria was Gimli's ancestral domain, and Lórien at least is that of Legolas' cousins. Legolas is one of my favorite characters. But really, I've come to love nearly all of the Fellowship, although Pippin less than some of the others.
G. Is there a structural resemblance between how the Lay of Nimrodel & The tale of Nimrodel & Amroth vs. the song & tale of Beren & Lúthien are presented to the reader? What would be the differences (disregarding the quality of the poetry)? What sense of depth is achieved by the story of Nimrodel & Amroth and are you left with a feeling of wanting to know more about them?
Nimrodel is first described in terms of her beauty, and then the song goes into the story, but the fate is still very ambiguous. And likewise, we don't really know what happened to B&L either. It is clearly a parallel, though, although apparently more tragic in the immediate sense. Depending, however, the story of B&L may be the most tragic of all.
I. The water of Nimrodel seems to have a particular ability to heal weariness. Do you see any symbolism on Tolkien’s part in the crossing of Nimrodel?
Apart from it being an Elven stream?
J. It is well known that Tolkien loved trees. In this chapter water and streams seem to be equally important and a number of different waters are mentioned. Do you pay attention to the concrete descriptions of the qualities of waters and streams in the story (like their courses, what is their source, if they flow swiftly or slowly, the colour of the water)? Other comments about water in this chapter?
Water is the solvent of life, and all life uses it. It is one of the most amazing chemicals in the universe. Since it matters to nature, and Tolkien loved natural beauty, he loved also water.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 5 2008, 4:27pm
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Ah, I always get Sindar and Sylvan elves mixed up! I do know that one group headed for Valinor but got side-tracked along the way and never quite arrived--the ADD tribe of elfdom. The others flat refused to go. The Mirkwood bunch mingled a portion of the latter with a disillusioned contingent of the former.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Mar 5 2008, 10:09pm
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Unfinished tales & Celtic elements
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D. I guess I should have chosen my words more carefully and not said original kingdom. I was mainly pondering that Legolas spoke of Lórien as a place whence his people wandered long ago and the fact that it seems to be a place of great importance to them, of which they have kept many memories and stories.
I usually speak within the context of LoTR, the Hobbit & The Silmarillion. I only remember fragments of the facts of Unfinished Tales as I donated it to a section of the Norwegian Tolkien Society many years ago. Still I remember that some of the stories in it are considerably more unfinished than others. I'm not trying to argue with the facts of what you're saying now, which are undoubtedly right, so forgive me if I sound grumpy, I'm only trying to say that some parts of Unfinished Tales should be used with caution.
G. It was interesting to hear about the Celtic elements of Lórien, I didn't know about that. Do you find that these Celtic elements are repeated in other parts of the story than the ones you mention.
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ArathornJax
Nargothrond
Mar 6 2008, 3:19am
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Like Hate relationship with Celtic elements
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Tolkien had a hate and like relationship with Celtic and took offense when someone mentioned if Celtic myths had influenced him. However, he later gave other comments regarding the language that he liked it.
For some articles on it see http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2386/is_2_117/ai_n16676591/pg_1
and
http://english.boisestate.edu/Lzaerr/j_r_r__tolkien.htm
This also has a real good online source for many of the works that Tolkien read and knew.
" . . . (we are ) too engrossed in thinking of everything as a preparation or training or making one fit -- for what? At any minute it is what we are and are doing, not what we plan to be and do that counts."
J.R.R. Tolkien in his 6 October 1940 letter to his son Michael Tolkien.
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Mar 6 2008, 10:09am
Post #9 of 25
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I apologize for the delay in posting new parts of the discussion. I'm planning to introduce two new threads
this evening (European time), then one on Friday evening and one or two on Saturday evening.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Mar 6 2008, 5:02pm
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A very nice movie from 1954 made by Otto Preminger starring Robert Mitchum and Marilyn Monroe. Only, unlike Amroth with Nimrodel, Mitchum goes back and finds Marilyn and carries her off. (It was the best edited film ever made prior to the original Star Wars movie.)
D. Lothlórien seems to be the original kingdom of Legolas’ people.
Nah. The Elves that stayed in Lothlórien were too scared to cross the Misty Mountains. The Elves that settled Greenwood were not only too chicken to cross the mountains, they couldn’t even bring themselves to cross the Anduin! While they were all huddling in fear at black squirrels, black moths, and their own black shadows, a traveling con man named Oropher showed up from the west after being kicked out of Lindon. He so impressed them by his bravery in not only crossing the mountains but also by his courage in crossing The Great River that they made him their king.
How do you imagine that the tales and songs of the Elves of Mirkwood are commemorated - what type of occasions, are any of the songs written down etc?
Songs of their bravery in running away from the Men chopping down the trees in the East Bight, their bravery in running away from the Darkness in Dol Guldur, and their bravery in finally digging holes in the ground and hiding in them. There are also very recent songs about their bravery in running away from thirteen dwarves and a hobbit.
Also becoming popular is a song about their bravery at The Battle of the Five Armies, aka “Operation Hide Behind The Lakemen”.
E. The lay of Nimrodel is sung in Westron.
Yeah, those are the clean lyrics.
Do you believe that the tales of the former kingdom of Lórien were known originally by Men as well as dwarves?
When Boromir said “it is said that few come out who once go in; and of that few none have escaped unscathed'’ he was talking about how the Elves had all these earwig songs that the escaped Men couldn’t stop singing. (Interestingly it was usually bearded Men being lured away by She-Elves. Apparently there is something about a beard.) An escaped Man might starve to death while unable to stop singing a thousand and one verses about The Lady of Light. Sometimes the only cure was to put them down.
Would any of these tales be known or heard (if only as fragments) by the Men of Wilderland or hobbits like the young Smeagol?
If the Men of Wilderland had beards and were halfway handsome then probably. But hobbits don’t have beards so they were much less at risk of being carried off by frustrated Elf Maids. However there is some evidence that hobbit males were occasionaly victims of Fairy Maids.
F. On entering Lothlórien Legolas is leading the way and occupies a more prominent place in the story. Do you enjoy this change?
My wife did. She wasn’t happy that Tolkien greatly diminished Legolas’ part from the movies.
Do you find that you get more insight into Legolas’ as a character than before?
It seems more obvious he’s a goofball. Tolkien seems to be using him for comic relief. Whereas Gimli is the grim bloodthirsty killer type. Just the opposite from the movies.
G. Is there a structural resemblance between how the Lay of Nimrodel & The tale of Nimrodel & Amroth vs. the song & tale of Beren & Lúthien are presented to the reader?
They’re all in verse.
What would be the differences (disregarding the quality of the poetry)?
The subjects.
What sense of depth is achieved by the story of Nimrodel & Amroth and are you left with a feeling of wanting to know more about them?
Dunno. It’s kind of sad they didn’t get together. But how did an Elf get lost in the woods? And how come Amroth didn’t go looking for her?
But, yes, I do want to know more about Nimrodel, such as is she all right, and where has she been for the past few years, and why hasn’t she checked into TORn? Anyone gotten an e-mail recently?
I. The water of Nimrodel seems to have a particular ability to heal weariness.
Like the mineral waters of the Alps, or Mount Shasta. The Elves could make a killing bottling it, and setting up spas.
Do you see any symbolism on Tolkien’s part in the crossing of Nimrodel?
It’s crossing into Faerie. It’s like crossing the Rubicon. There is no turning back.
J. It is well known that Tolkien loved trees. In this chapter water and streams seem to be equally important and a number of different waters are mentioned. Do you pay attention to the concrete descriptions of the qualities of waters and streams in the story (like their courses, what is their source, if they flow swiftly or slowly, the colour of the water)?
Yep.
Other comments about water in this chapter?
Legolas: ‘’'On the further bank we can rest. and the sound of the falling water may bring us sleep and forgetfulness of grief.'’”
Like The Enchanted Stream of Mirkwood, or the River Lethe of Hades.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 6 2008, 7:57pm
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Feb. 25-Mar. 2 for "The Bridge of Khazad-dûm".
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dna
Lindon
Mar 7 2008, 8:15am
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I usually speak within the context of LoTR, the Hobbit & The Silmarillion... some parts of Unfinished Tales should be used with caution. ...your book is needed now, no time for delay 
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Mar 7 2008, 8:26am
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I'm a bit slow perhaps. Voronwë is just a character from the story of Tuor's journey to Nevrast as far as I'm concerned. Or some random steward of Gondor I suppose.
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a.s.
Doriath
Mar 7 2008, 10:56am
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Voronwe's one of our members with a book coming out :-)
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According to this post, his book entitled Arda Reconstructed: The Creation of the Published Silmarillion has been accepted for publication.
I'm pretty sure that's what dna is referring to! 
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Good night, little girls, thank the Lord you are well!
Now go to sleep" said Miss Clavel.
And she turned out the light and shut the door,
And that's all there is. There isn't any more.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 9 2008, 4:31am
Post #15 of 25
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Galadriel's mist is found in "Unfinished Tales".
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Specifically in the story of Cirion and Eorl.
As for Túrin's story, the "Narn" at least is said to have been written by a man.
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Join us Mar. 3-10 for "Lothlórien".
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 9 2008, 4:51am
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The second site's list of sources is particularly useful, though the essay itself must be read with some caution. Even a non-medievalist such as myself notices that: Tolkien and E.V. Gordon did not publish a translation of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight in 1925, but an edition of that text, in Middle English. The lines from The Wanderer are paraphrased not by a "Rider of Rohan" but by Aragorn. "Éowyn" isn't Old English for "horsewoman" but "joy in horses". And the languages of Old English and Anglo-Saxon are the same thing.
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 9 2008, 5:00am
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UT more trustworthy than The Silmarillion?
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I usually speak within the context of LotR, The Hobbit, and The Silmarillion... I'm only trying to say that some parts of Unfinished Tales should be used with caution.
I take dna's point, in referring to Voronwë the Faithful's forthcoming book, Arda Reconstructed, to be that in fact, it is The Silmarillion that should be used with caution, as much of its presentation and some of its content is the creation of Tolkien's son, Christopher (with the assistance of Guy Kay), while Unfinished Tales, though choppy and incomplete by defnintion, is presented fairly transparently as J.R.R. Tolkien's text with Christopher's commentary, with almost no invention (though with a fair amount of omitted material, as in "The Hunt for the Ring" notes, further excerpts of which appeared 25 years later in The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion). See Voronwë's recent comments here.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 9 2008, 5:09am
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Just remember that "sylvan" means "woodland".
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It's an English word derived from Latin, and Tolkien prefers to spell it "Silvan".
Well, maybe that's not so helpful, since the Sindarin elves also had a woodland kingdom: Doriath. But if you think of the least elves (apart from the Avari, whom we never meet) as those living in dark "tree-tangled Middle-earth", having been the earliest to give up on the journey to the light, that might help to associate "Silvan" with the main population of Mirkwood and Lórien, where the leadership are Sindarin and Sindarin/Noldorin, respectively.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 9 2008, 5:21am
Post #19 of 25
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But "On the Waterfront" won the editing Oscar that year.
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I see that Loeffler, though twice nominated, never won.
Also becoming popular is a song about their bravery at The Battle of the Five Armies, aka “Operation Hide Behind The Lakemen”.
Did elves rewrite parts of The Hobbit?
"The elves were the first to charge. Their hatred for the goblins is cold and bitter. Their spears and swords shone in the gloom with a gleam of chill flame, so deadly was the wrath of the hands that held them."
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Mar 9 2008, 3:55pm
Post #20 of 25
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Thank you for that information and for enclosing Voronwë's post from Main. It sure makes the forthcoming book even more interesting. I'm no Tolkien scholar, but I would still say that a edited version of a large body of tales, selected and put together with an eye for coherence, seems to me more trustworthy than small notes or scraps of the beginnings of ideas which are very difficult to sustain, even if these bits and pieces are solely from the hand of J.R.R.T. himself.
Of course the stories of Tuor's coming to Gondolin or the Children of Húrin are a very different matter than the end of the Third Age tales in UT: from this I infer until I can read Voronwë's book that omission of details and keeping Silmarillion as a whole more lofty than it had to be must be the worst problem with CT's editing.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 9 2008, 7:37pm
Post #21 of 25
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Parallel presentation of the songs of Tinúviel and Nimrodel?
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G. Is there a structural resemblance between the ways the Lay of Nimrodel and Amroth vs. the song and tale of Beren & Lúthien are presented to the reader? What would be the differences (disregarding the quality of the poetry)?
I'm glad you asked this question, as it also struck me on this re-reading.
At Weathertop, Aragorn tells the hobbits "many histories and legends of long ago, of Elves and Men and the good and evil deeds of the Elder Days". He then sings them part of a "sad" song about a romantic couple. The song includes the lines, "He heard there oft the flying sound / Of feet as light as linden-leaves". He cautions that the song is properly sung in Elvish, and that it "is hard to render in our Common Speech, and this is but a rough echo of it". He concludes by giving a prose summary of the song.
By the Nimrodel, Legolas tells the Company "tales of Lothlórien ... of sunlight and starlight upon the meadows by the Great River before the world was grey." Then he sings a "sad" song about a romantic couple. The song includes the lines, "And in the wind she went as light / as leaf of linden-tree". He notes that it "is a fair song in our woodland tongue; but this is how it runs in the Westron Speech". He finishes with a prose summary of the song.
Why the parallel? I don't know. The earlier scene immediately preceded its chapter's climactic conclusion. This one falls square in the middle. In both cases, the party fears attack that night, and doesn't have much of a plan to fend off the attack. In the first case, the hobbits are attacked; here the attackers are led off by the elves. The earlier poem was about Beren's pursuit of Lúthien. This one is about the separation of Amroth and Nimrodel. That's all I've got.
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Doriath
Mar 10 2008, 2:44am
Post #22 of 25
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elostirion, I think that is a pretty fair assessment. Certainly my biggest objection is the omission of details. But Christopher was faced with a massive task of determining what versions of different parts of the story to include and incorporating material written over the course of 30 years and more that had radically different tones.
As for which is more "trustworthy",The Silmarillion or UT (or, for that matter, the texts in HoMe, particularly Morgoth's Ring and The War of the Jewels), that is a complicated question. Certainly the UT and HoMe texts would seem to be more so in terms of being truer to what Tolkien actually wrote most recently (although the version of the Narn in UT and the Sil chapter on Turin were largely edited from the same massive store of materials). But, for better or worse, The Silmarillion is the version that most people are going to be most familiar with. Christopher was authorized by his father to publish it, and the published version is going to be considered the most authoratative version of the story, even the parts written by Christopher himself.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.'
(This post was edited by Voronwë_the_Faithful on Mar 10 2008, 2:51am)
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Mar 10 2008, 8:41pm
Post #23 of 25
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But "On the Waterfront" won the editing Oscar that year. I see that Loeffler, though twice nominated, never won.
So you're saying winning an Oscar is a sure sign of quality? Then let me direct you to a movie that swept the Oscars called "Return of the King".
But seriously, look at the editing of River of No Return. Compared to the winner and the nominees of 1954 the editing technique is years ahead of its time. No wonder it wasn't appreciated.
Did elves rewrite parts of The Hobbit?
Poor trusting Bilbo didn't keep his manuscript locked up in Rivendell. Easy-peasy for agents of the Elvish Ministry of Truth to just walk in in the middle of the night and "correct" it. Old doddering Bilbo wouldn't even notice.
Indeed, just look at all the "corrections" made in just the 1937, 1951, and 1966 editions! The Elves are still around, and they don't want you to know the truth!!
(Next week, on The Elf-Files....)
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Mar 10 2008, 8:42pm)
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 10 2008, 8:54pm
Post #24 of 25
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happened between March and October 1419, then: I read Bilbo as growing "doddering" only after the Ring's destruction.
So you're saying winning an Oscar is a sure sign of quality? Then let me direct you to a movie that swept the Oscars called "Return of the King". Quite! But then I'd point you to Chicago (which I do prefer to The Two Towers) and A Beautiful Mind (which even I will concede is a weaker film than The Fellowship of the Ring).
I've never seen The River of no Return. Your citation got me to check its wikipedia entry, where the editing is likewise acknowledged for its unusually fast pace. I really like the editing in Takeshi Kitano's movies, even when I don't like his films as a whole.
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