Now, we've come to it at last, the heart of Elvendom on Earth. Please feel free to bring up any subject you would like.

His eyes uncovered, Frodo is looking at the mound of Cerin Amroth, the heart of the realm of Lórien as it was long ago. The mound is surrounded by two circles of trees, one of which consist of mellyrn, in the centre there’s a white flet and the grass is covered with flowers (elanor & niphredil) shaped like stars.. “golden, white & palest green glimmering like a mist amid the rich hue of the grass”

This is the impression it makes on Frodo:

”It seemed like he was looking through a high window onto a vanished world. A light was upon it for which his language had no name... all that he saw was shapely...He saw no colour but those he knew, gold and white and blue and green, but they were fresh and poignant, as if he had at that moment first perceived them and made for them names new and wonderful...

Frodo felt that he was in a timeless land that did not fade or change... when he had gone and passed out again into the outer world, still Frodo the wandered from the Shire would walk there upon the grass among elanor and niphredil in fair Lothlórien”

A. What do you think Tolkien/Frodo is trying to convey here?


The magic infusing Lothlorien by the power of Galadriel's ring. Galadriel's fondest desire was to recreate her childhood home of Valinor, in defiance of the powers which pronounced her exiled.

B. Tolkien is at once specific and quite vague, or what do you think? What do you believe a literary modernist would have thought of this description? Literary modernists did not think much of Tolkien generally, and they are entitled to their opinions somewhere else. As for my own perceptions, the first time I read about Lorien I felt absolutely overwhelmed by beauty. The second time surprised me with a let-down, when the description seemed more spare than I remembered. Then I realized that at least half of the beauty of Lorien comes of it following so closely on the horrors of Moria--it gives us the perfect respite that we need. Later readings renewed to me the beauty of that land, as I realized that Tolkien intended his vagueness as a vessel for our own imaginations, to fill in whatever we most need to cleanse Moria from our minds. Again, Lorien is like water--an uninspiring drink to those who do not need it, but to those who thirst it affords an exquisite joy beyond compare. Frodo rightly notes that Lorien displays the same colors as any other land--it is the light which infuses them here that distinguish them. Tolkien encourages us to share in the magic by the thirst in our souls, allowing us to see that extra dimension of the common colors. That way, when we put the book down, and look about us with enchanted eyes, we can see the colors of Lorien in our own existence.

C. We have been walking for a long while, but apparently Frodo has done little of the talking.
Still many things are seen from Frodo’s point of view. What kind of impression do you get
of Frodo as a person and storyteller from this chapter? What kinds of things does he notice
or focus on? Would you have liked to hear more from other characters? I appreciate Frodo's sensitivity. I do believe that different people would perceive different things in Lorien. He opens himself up to understanding the Elvish viewpoint better than most, I think.

Sam has another point of view: “I thought that Elves were all for moon and stars: but this is more elvish than anything I ever heard tell of. I feel as if I was inside a song, if you take my
meaning”.

D. Why does Sam say that this is more elvish than anything he has heard tell of?
What do you think of Sam’s remark? I think Sam also opens himself up to understand more than the average hobbit or even man might have grasped. He quickly sheds his preconceptions to let in the real experience. As a result, Lorien feels more elvish to him than anything he has experienced before. Also, he appreciates the reality more than the tales that hinted at it. I do like his simile, which actually is literal--he really is inside a song!

E. Sam has since the start of the quest met Elves in the Shire, in Rivendell & now in Lórien.
What do you believe Sam’s experience of walking through the Naith of Lórien contribute
to his understanding of the elvish (provided that you consider we have enough information
to say anything about it)? Rivendell actually has a cosmopolitan culture, intentionally, founded as it was by a human/elf hybrid who viewed himself as born to bring disparate peoples together. Yes, Sam has met elves passing through the Shire as foreigners, and met more settled elves in a multicultural environment, but never before has he experienced pure elvishness in a wholly elvish nation, where he is the stranger. He can witness their culture in its original form.

F. I urge those who have particular illustrations of scenes connected to Cerin Amroth or to
Lórien in general that they would like to comment on, to bring these up in their post. I did feel that the movie version of Lorien was on target. Peter Jackson did the right thing in recruiting the two most experienced and well-known artists to ever specialize in painting Middle-Earth, rather than some Hollywood-experienced artistic director or backdrop-painter who hastily skimmed the script on the way to production.

I confess that I am madly in love with Tolkien’s description of flowers, although I, unlike Tolkien, do not take any special interest in the kinship and taxonomy of plants. In a letter to Amy Ronald, 1969, (Letters of J.R.R.T nr. 312) he tells her he has enjoyed The Cape Flower Book. I quote from the letter for those interested:

“I have not seen anything that immediately recalls niphredil or elanor or alfirin, but that is because those imagined flowers are lit by a light that would not be seen ever in a growing plant and cannot be captured by paint. Lit by that light, niphredil would be simply a delicate kind of snowdrop and elanor a pimpernel (perhaps a little enlarged), growing sun-golden flowers and star-silver ones on the same plant”

G. Tolkien may not have seen anything that recalls his image of the flowers of Lórien, but perhaps you have? Articles or just your own thoughts about flowers and plants in Lórien would also be interesting. I expect that they would be the flowers we see about us already--only in Lorien we really see them.

Frodo felt that he was in a timeless land that did not fade or change... when he had gone and passed out again into the outer world, still Frodo the wandered from the Shire would walk there upon the grass among elanor and niphredil in fair Lothlórien”

A. What do you think Tolkien/Frodo is trying to convey here?

It's night right enough; but there's no firelight:
dark is over all, and dead is master.
When morning comes, it'll be much like others:
more labour and loss till the land's ruined;
ever work and war till the world passes.

It was as if I had only just been able to see colors and shapes for the first time. I was so enthralled with the buttons on Lestat's black coat that I looked at nothing else for a long time. Then Lestat began to laugh, and I heard his laughter as I had never heard anything before. His heart I still heard like the beating of a drum, and now came this metallic laughter. It was confusing, each sound running into the next sound, like the mingling reverberations of bells, until I learned to separate the sounds, and then they overlapped, each soft but distinct, increasing but discrete peals of laughter. The vampire smiled with delight. Peals of bells.

The others cast themselves down upon the fragrant grass, but Frodo stood awhile still lost in wonder. It seemed to him that he had stepped through a high window that looked on a vanished world. A light was upon it for which his language had no name. All that he saw was shapely, but the shapes seemed at once clear cut, as if they had been first conceived and drawn at the uncovering of his eyes, and ancient as if they had endured for ever. He saw no colour but those he knew, gold and white and blue and green, but they were fresh and poignant, as if he had at that moment first perceived them and made for them names new and wonderful. In winter here no heart could mourn for summer or for spring. No blemish or sickness or deformity could be seen in anything that grew upon the earth. On the land of Lórien there was no stain.