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CominBackLikeElessar
Registered User
Mar 2 2008, 4:22am
Post #1 of 28
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The Hobbit Movie...sequel?
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Hi all. I'm brand new to these boards so please don't slay me if this has been beaten to death already.
We all know that the first hobbit movie is up in the air; however, what business does anyone have talking about a sequel, for the shear reason that there is no novel between TH and FOTR? I can't see what scraps could be put together...Aragorn running around the forest courting Arwen? The defeat of the Necromancer, which was never really that flushed out? Bilbo eating cakes? The lost "old forest chapter" of Fellowship?? It's been confunding me ever since I heard it.
I never read much of C. Tolkien's histories, so can anyone help me out? What kind of threadbare plot could be put in here?
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squire
Gondolin
Mar 2 2008, 4:54am
Post #2 of 28
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There is none. It will be up to the screenwriters. It's called "fan fiction".
We have discussed it on the boards, and no doubt will continue to do so, so jump right in! My feeling is that about 70% of these boards think a fan-fiction style "Hobbit sequel" or "Hobbit-to-LotR Bridge" movie is a good thing, just for the sake of seeing more Tolkienish stuff that follows Peter Jackson's vision. The other roughly 30%, like me, think it's unnecessary, inappropriate, or harmful to the principle that Tolkien's actual stories are the best basis for a movie, rather than his imaginary world populated by another writer's story.
If it's a success, it will convince an entire new generation of filmgoers that Tolkien wrote a story that he really didn't; while if it's a failure (and The Hobbit is more or less as good as LotR), it will drag down the reputation of the whole epic serial -- the "dud" movie that you have to watch even though it's not very good.
Here's a question for you: Should The Hobbit and this unnamed second film, which will deal with events that precede and lead up to the already-released Fellowship movie, be made with the approach that its viewers will not have seen the LotR trilogy -- just as readers of The Hobbit did not know that The Lord of the Rings would eventually follow and alter their understanding of the Quest of Erebor? Or should it take all that for granted, and skip the exposition of, for instance, who Saruman is, because so many of the first generation of viewer will be veterans of the earlier works?
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CominBackLikeElessar
Registered User
Mar 2 2008, 5:05am
Post #3 of 28
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It is as i feared; fan fiction. I consider that wholly damaging. I do not read Christopher Tolkien, as I wouldn't care to read Brian Herbert. I would much less watch a non-canon movie.
I'd rather see 3-4 hours of vignettes of certain scenes and stories that Tolkien did write about instead of fan fiction. Not to mention there's always the Silmarillion if you want 11823923409 hours of film. =)
I do feel this first movie should be made as a beginning of beginnings, just as it is in the book. In time, a good hobbit movie would be the starting point for movie viewers to show their children. LOTR was completely adequate, but there's nothing like seeing that little trinket of a ring turning into the most evil and powerful thing ever created.
I'm rereading the Hobbit with my 9 yr old daughter now (it's her first time) and I'm amazed how much insight Tolkien already had about the purpose of that ring so early on. He knew exactly what it was, who the necromancer was, and the wiles of Gandalf. A fully flushed out universe for these characters to adventure into. Gotta love it.
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silneldor
Gondolin
Mar 2 2008, 6:16am
Post #4 of 28
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I am really leaning in this direction too.
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I really feel the hobbit should be 2 movies with inter-lacing of past and present histories (as allowed by law- gad i abhor these legalistic bs piles) somehow woven in to make a more complete vision of the Hobbit and the lotr's. Make it all one entity, because it IS all one entity. If it breaks up the the story a little, it would, i feel be immeasurably better than the tour de fanficforce 2nd movie.
"Tolkien, like Lewis, believed that, through story, the real world would become a more magical place, full of meaning. We see its patterns and colors in a fresh way. The recovery of a true view of the world applies both to individual things, like hills and stones, and to the cosmic - the depths of space and time itself. For in sub-creation, in Tolkien's view, there is a "survey" of space and time. Reality is captured on a miniature scale. Through stories like The Lord of the Rings, a renewed view of things is given, illuminating the homely, the spiritial, the physical, and the moral dimensions of the world."
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In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of Manwë Súlimo
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CominBackLikeElessar
Registered User
Mar 2 2008, 6:40am
Post #5 of 28
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I'm a purist, iw ouldn't change the pace of the Hobbit at all, but I wouldn't mind the second movie be just a bunch of little vignettes.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 2 2008, 1:19pm
Post #6 of 28
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I'm amazed how much insight Tolkien already had about the purpose of that ring so early on. Well, no, Tolkien didn't! What you are reading is his re-working of The Hobbit to match the happenings in LotR.
The version of The Hobbit which was originally published in 1937 did not have the sinister Gollum: the encounter between him and Bilbo was far more, well, "cordial". Other emendations were made as well for the 1951 edition (LotR would be published in 1953/54) and the later 1966 edition. I highly recommend Douglas Anderson's Annotated Hobbit, which contains both all the changes and background as well.
Here's the side-by-side comparison of the "Riddles in the Dark" chapter: http://www.ringgame.net/riddles.html.
I'm currently reading John Rateliff's History of The Hobbit, a fascinating look at the story's actual construction. I'm getting a chuckle out of the nick of another new member, "Bladorthin", who has also obviously been reading it.
I hope your daughter is greatly enjoying Bilbo's adventures as well!
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Jazmine
Dor-Lomin
Mar 2 2008, 3:37pm
Post #7 of 28
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I'm reading the History of the Hobbit myself...
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Am finding it quite fascinating. It's great to see how the story began, grew and progressed. I dabble in a bit of fiction writing myself, so its a great help to read these kind of things.
Back to the main issue of this thread, I must say I've not entirely made my mind up on the "bridge" movie. I don't think they should just make a load of stuff up, and fit it into a Middle Earth setting, that would be just awful. But maybe, if they addressed the White Council, the Necromancer etc in the right way, it could work? I'm not sure. It would have to be done very well, with alot of attention to the tiny details in the Appendices/History, otherwise it just won't feel right.
*Jazminatar the Brown*
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CominBackLikeElessar
Registered User
Mar 2 2008, 6:00pm
Post #8 of 28
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Thanks Dernwyn! I will DEFINITELY check that out. So glad I checked out these forums.
Gotta love a little retconning.
So yeah, the bridge movie *might* be plasible, if it were short, and dealt perhaps with the Istari and the Necromancer. I suppose they could draw on the history of middle earth and the origins of Sauron...but there is no little dialogue to base the script on, it could be scary...
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 2 2008, 6:35pm
Post #9 of 28
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You know, the more I think about it, the more I feel that a fan-fic movie is just plain wrong. Money will change hands--no fanfic writer has the right to profit off of piggybacking on Tolkien's imagination. It is one thing to visit somebody's garden and take pictures, and then go home and photoshop them, it's another thing entirely to set up a tent and claim squatter's rights.
PJ should write his fanfic down like the rest of us, and distribute it for free. Or if he really wants to do a movie, he should show it for free. He's muddying the water, and that could close down the whole show for all of us.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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Doriath
Ossiriand
Mar 2 2008, 8:39pm
Post #11 of 28
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Word!
Absolutely NO makin' stuff up. Period. Unless, of course we could have a cross-over story that somehow involved Jar Jar Binks. :)
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 2 2008, 8:48pm
Post #12 of 28
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I do not read Christopher Tolkien, as I wouldn't care to read Brian Herbert.
I've not read Brian Herbert's novels, but to judge from the wikipedia entry, his "Dune" books are his narratives based on his father's outlines or notes, whereas Christopher Tolkien's: the History of Middle-earth tales are edited manuscripts of J.R.R. Tolkien's work with commentary by C.T., and even The Silmarillion is overwhelmingly composed of J.R.R. Tolkien's own writing, albeit much arranged by his son.
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Solicitr
Mithlond
Mar 3 2008, 4:02am
Post #14 of 28
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"I do not read Christopher Tolkien, as I wouldn't care to read Brian Herbert. I would much less watch a non-canon movie."
That's a completely inapt comparison. All CT has done is edit his father's manuscripts (in rather different formats for different purpose), not write new M-E stuff of his own.
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Daughter of Nienna
Hithlum
Mar 3 2008, 4:26am
Post #15 of 28
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would agree with you two (or three or four). He wanted to create a mythology that, like all mythologies though out the history of mankind, could be dipped into and stories created from it.
But, somehow, I think the movie makers will be using more of Tolkien's written work then you all are frettin' about. The H.O.M.E. series & Unfinished Tales & the Silmarillion (the material upon which will be drawn from), are all JRRT's words, not Cristopher Tolkien's words. Movies have been made from far less throught the history of movies.
I just feel it is far too early to jump to conclusions and run up the red flags.
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CominBackLikeElessar
Registered User
Mar 3 2008, 4:31am
Post #16 of 28
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Another name as author always just makes me nervous, is all.
Let's get a petition going for vignettes!
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Solicitr
Mithlond
Mar 3 2008, 5:24am
Post #17 of 28
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But, somehow, I think the movie makers will be using more of Tolkien's written work then you all are frettin' about. The H.O.M.E. series & Unfinished Tales & the Silmarillion (the material upon which will be drawn from), are all JRRT's words, not Cristopher Tolkien's words. Movies have been made from far less throught the history of movies.
New Line (nor Zaentz) doesn't have the rights to any of those books, and they can't use them.
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drogo
Menegroth
Mar 3 2008, 11:32am
Post #18 of 28
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Brian Herbert vs. Christopher Tolkien
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I am also an avid Frank Herbert reader, so here is probably more info than anyone wants about the Brian Herbert/Christopher Tolkien contrast. 
Brian Herbert is first and foremost a SF novelist like his father whereas Christopher is an academic with mythological world-building ("mythopoeic") tendencies, like his father. As far as the legacy of the two writers, the biggest difference is that Frank Herbert did not leave behind reams of unedited manuscripts and drafts that could be stitched together (with some rewriting and bridging material) into a semblance of a narrative. Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson, his co-author, started writing prequel novels to the Dune chronicles that were loosely based on elements in Frank Herbert's works and what few texts he left behind: notes, epitaphs for chapters, and some sketches. The novels are mostly their invention with characters and situations they developed to fit the broad history that Frank had outlined; they did two prequel series, one of which dealt with the "First Age" of the Dune universe (the Jihad that led to the destruction of technology). Then they compiled one HoME-like book, Road to Dune, which publishes early versions of Frank's Dune and some of the cut chapters and sequences from his other published works. There is no scholarly apparatus as such, but both Brian and his co-author are novelists, not academics, though they do include some speculation on how the disjecta membra shed new light on Frank's work.
In the last few years, though, Brian has written a novel that is supposedly based on the notes for the unwritten 7th novel in the Dune series that Frank left in a safe deposit box. These notes were reportedly discovered a number of years back, and after they finished the two prequel trilogies they published "Dune 7" in two installments. These have been more controversial because they are directly tied into the story of Frank's last published novel, but also introduce characters and elements from the prequels that were not Frank's original conception. They claim they are faithful to the arc of the story and the original characters as Frank intended to write them, and that they have completed the Dune universe in a way that fits his original conception. Many fans, though, are more skeptical and are furious they have not published the notes from the safe deposit box.
Christopher did, we know now, "make up" some elements with the help of Guy Kay, who is now a very well-known fantasy author in his own right, so take that controversy over the Sil and magnify it several fold, and you will get the Dune controversy. I will add that Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson are, for me and many other fans, not as talented writers as Frank Herbert was (by far) and their novels are much more pedestrian SF fare than the father's.
And yes, I am seeking a first 1965 Chilton's edition of Dune. I have a 1965 book club edition of the book, which is easier and cheaper to obtain, but the trade version is almost as valuable as first impressions of LOTR.
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Sunflower
Doriath
Mar 3 2008, 4:58pm
Post #19 of 28
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Well...PJ must have a really good plan for all this. We simply do not know what it was he showed to the Harry Sloan at MGM in January 2007 that made him so enthusiatic to keep him on board. Of course, they are not Tolkien experts, nor do they really care as long as a good film comes of it, but he must have have had a really convincing outline and/or proto-script, that persuaded them that this was not only feasible, but doable.
For me, the jury is out on this one so far, b/c we simply don't know. I suppose the only way we will find out is a "20 questions with GDT" on AICN. I'm skeptical on the specifics but as for rest I have a "wait and see" attitude.
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Solicitr
Mithlond
Mar 3 2008, 6:32pm
Post #20 of 28
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we know now, "make up" some elements with the help of Guy Kay"
Really only one-half of one chapter of The Siklmarillion. At any rate, the reason we 'now know' these things is because Christopher spent the next twenty years publishing the original manuscripts, with commentary, so that anyone who likes can look through the raw material he used.
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burrahobbit
Nargothrond
Mar 3 2008, 6:33pm
Post #21 of 28
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Bridge film idea also changes the first film
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I reckon the inclusion of a second bridge film will also change how the first hobbit film is approached. The plan is to shoot the The Hobbit and the bridge film together, and they have been negociated as a package, with the financial benefits of a second film seeming to be the main motivation for its inclusion (rather than there being any real story to tell). I really hope this doesn't negatively affect the adaptation of The Hobbit.
It's easy to imagine inappropriate changes to the The Hobbit story intended to improve integration with the bridge film, like Legolas or Aragorn cameos for example.
I'm pretty sure they will expect the core audience to have seen the LotR films, and telling the stories backwards makes it quite challenging especially as The Hobbit takes place in more of children's fairy tale world than LotR. The tone of The Hobbit could be changed with more of a Quest for Erebor approach, or a narration device like Silverlode suggested could be used.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Mar 3 2008, 10:31pm
Post #22 of 28
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of fanfic stuff in the LotR movies, the way I see it. Arwen's life tied to the Ring somehow, Faramir takes the hobbits to Osgiliath, Aragorn falls off a cliff, etc.
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Ainu Laire
Dor-Lomin
Mar 3 2008, 10:55pm
Post #23 of 28
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And, just like fan fiction, people will either love it or not :P
I am more concerned with the script writers than the fact that it will be essentially fan fiction. There is some very good fan fic out there. The question is whether this will be good or not.
It is a bit disappointing that people like the crew of Born of Hope have to rely on donations to create a film based off of Tolkien's works, while others get the chance to distribute it in theaters and make a lot of money off of it. But life isn't fair, and that is that.
Even if changes are made, I just hope that, overall, it's decent (and isn't a mess like the 2nd new star wars film was... yuck).
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greendragon
Sr. Staff
Mar 4 2008, 12:02am
Post #24 of 28
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Hilarious, squire. But a hideous thought at the same time...  
Thanks for making me laugh!
'There are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of my fridge...'
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greendragon
Sr. Staff
Mar 4 2008, 12:16am
Post #25 of 28
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'There are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of my fridge...'
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