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Beren IV
Mithlond
Mar 2 2008, 12:53am
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The Bridge of Khazad-dûm VII: Epilogue - the White Rider (and more shades of Lovecraft)
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Those of us who have read the book before and/or have seen the movies (which is probably all of us, or almost all of us) know that this isn't the last we are going to see of a certain Maia, so I am going to go ahead and spoil it for the purposes of this discussion. If you don't want the spoiler, stop here! 
*
Book III, Chapter 5, The White Rider:
'Long time I fell,' he said at last, slowly, as if thinking back with difficulty. 'Long I fell, and he fell with me. His fire was about me. I was burned. Then we plunged into the deep water and all was dark. Cold it was at the tide of death: almost it froze my heart.'
'Deep is the abyss that is spanned by Durin's Bridge, and none has measured it,' said Gimli.
'Yet it has a bottom, beyond light and knowledge,' said Gandalf. 'Thither I came at last, to the uttermost foundations of stone. He was with me still. His fire was quenched, but how he was a thing of slime, stronger than a strangling snake.
'We fought far under the lviing earth, where time is not counted. Ever he clutched me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels. They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Glóin. Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is knawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day. In that despair my enemy was my only hope, and I pursued him, clutching at his heel. Thus he brought me back at last to the secret ways of Khazad-dûm: too well he knew them all. Ever up now we went, until we came to the Endless Stair.'
'Long has that been lost,' said Gimli. 'Many have said that it was never made save in legend, but others say that it was destroyed.'
'It was made, and it had not been destroyed,' said Gandalf. 'From the lowest dungeon to the highest peak it climbed, ascending in unbroken spiral in many thousand steps, until it issued at last in Durin's Tower carved in the living rock of Zirakzigil, the pinnacle of Silvertine.
'There upon Celebdil was a lonely window in the snow, and before it lay a narrow space, a dizzy eyrie above the mists of the world. The sun shone fiercely there, but all below was wrapped in cloud. Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame. There was none to see, or perhaps in after ages songs would still be sung of the Battle of the Peak.' Suddenly Gandalf laughed. 'But what would they say in song? Those that looked up from afar thought the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. Is that not enough? A great smoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell.'
Tikeli-li! Tikeli-li!
Oops - wrong author. Nameless things that make tunnels under the mountains' roots, far deeper than even the Dwarves' dwellings? Better not to describe them lest to darken the light of day? Sounds like Lovecraft!
And, oh yes, villains in Tolkien continually violate the Evil Overlord list. Even the Balrog does it. Okay, everyone, on the count of three: one - two - three: I WILL NOT TURN INTO A SNAKE. IT NEVER HELPS.
Back to business.
1. How deep is that chasm? Can it even be measured in distance, or is what lies under the bottom of the mountains 'not of this world'?
2. What do you make of the line 'they [the nameless things and their tunnels] are older than he [Sauron]'?
3. Has anybody else here read At the Mountains of Madness by Lovecraft (1929)? Do you suppose that Tolkien knew about it? Do you envision shoggoths living under the Misty Mountains?
4. How did the Endless Stair get forgotten? Did Durin's tunnels connect to the tunnels underneath?
5. If Melkor sent Durin's Bane here, then presumably He also knew of the nameless things. Did Melkor name them? Did He make them?
6. I and somebody else discussed a while ago why the nameless things don't come up out of the depths and molest the waking world. Why don't they? Is it because the 'stars are wrong' (to quote Lovecraft again), or is it because the Valar keep them down there? If so, what is it about the surface world that the Valar use to keep them hidden? Is there any difference (i.e. does Varda decide whether the stars are right or wrong)?
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 2 2008, 7:09pm
Post #2 of 32
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Apologies in advance for weird formatting problems.
And, oh yes, villains in Tolkien continually violate the Evil Overlord list. Even the Balrog does it. Okay, everyone, on the count of three: one - two - three: I WILL NOT TURN INTO A SNAKE. IT NEVER HELPS.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Forgive my ignorance, but what is the Evil Overlord List?
1. How deep is that chasm? Can it even be measured in distance, or is what lies under the bottom of the mountains 'not of this world'? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(For some reason I can't turn off the blasted bold, so I'll distinguish my answers by italics. And it won't space between sections, either!) Deep enough to make a good epic. Some things should not be questioned, measured, nor delved into.
2. What do you make of the line 'they [the nameless things and their tunnels] are older than he [Sauron]'? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Didn't some of the maiar dive into Arda and merge with it before the official contingent of Valar and Maiar arrived? If one considers their arrival as their moment of "birth" (incarnation, whatever) then these would be older than Sauron.
3. Has anybody else here read At the Mountains of Madness by Lovecraft (1929)? Do you suppose that Tolkien knew about it? Do you envision shoggoths living under the Misty Mountains?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Interesting thought! Yes, Tolkien might well have read Lovecraft. Many who later wrote adult fantasy did. (And yes, I did read it long ago.)
4. How did the Endless Stair get forgotten? Did Durin's tunnels connect to the tunnels underneath? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I would expect that Durin's tunnels accidentally connected to the tunnels underneath, and when fell things started lurching into dwarf territory, all egress to such connections got hastily closed up again. That would include the Endless Stair, which would eventually become the stuff of legend.
5. If Melkor sent Durin's Bane here, then presumably He also knew of the nameless things. Did Melkor name them? Did He make them? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~He might have accidentally made them, in that his rebellion and its influence corrupted them without him necessarily having control over them or even knowing about them. None of us know the full consequence of all of our decisions; part of Melkor's folly was that he thought he could control everything.
6. I and somebody else discussed a while ago why the nameless things don't come up out of the depths and molest the waking world. Why don't they? Is it because the 'stars are wrong' (to quote Lovecraft again), or is it because the Valar keep them down there? If so, what is it about the surface world that the Valar use to keep them hidden? Is there any difference (i.e. does Varda decide whether the stars are right or wrong)? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~I expect that the nameless things are simply much more comfortable deep beneath the ground. It's a long climb to reach territories to which they have no adaptation. All of that light, by sun or moon, all of those wild temperature-swings, great agoraphobic expanses, and an overabundance of messy organic matter would upset any nameless thing accustomed to cozy tunnels and good, firm rock.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
(This post was edited by Dreamdeer on Mar 2 2008, 7:18pm)
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Milady
Ossiriand
Mar 2 2008, 7:14pm
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Why doesn't someone go ahead and name them so we can stop calling them the "nameless things?"
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1. How deep is that chasm? Can it even be measured in distance, or is what lies under the bottom of the mountains 'not of this world'?
I think the chasm CAN be measured. If it wasn't part of this world, I doubt Gandalf and the Balrog could have gotten back to the top of the mountain so easily. "Not part of this world"...to answer that in depth, I would have to know more about how Arda is constructed, like is it a planet, does it have a core, or what?
2. What do you make of the line 'they [the nameless things and their tunnels] are older than he [Sauron]'?
To me that just means that they were there long before Sauron, and either he knows about them or not.
3. Has anybody else here read At the Mountains of Madness by Lovecraft (1929)? Do you suppose that Tolkien knew about it? Do you envision shoggoths living under the Misty Mountains?
....Sorry, no. Never read it.
4. How did the Endless Stair get forgotten? Did Durin's tunnels connect to the tunnels underneath?
It's interesting, because in order for the Dwarves to make that staircase they would have had to go down to those tunnels that were already there. And then they might have followed those tunnels. Maybe the Dwarves knew all about what came before them under the Misty Mountains. As for how the Endless Stair was forgotten, once all the original Dwarves disappeared, nobody else probably knew much about the inner structure of the mines. It was probably hidden in such a way that only the Dwarves who were there first would know where it was, and that's why Balin's group couldn't find it.
5. If Melkor sent Durin's Bane here, then presumably He also knew of the nameless things. Did Melkor name them? Did He make them?
I think he might have made them. I don't see how else they came about, as it is never mentioned that any of the Valar ever made anything like that.
6. I and somebody else discussed a while ago why the nameless things don't come up out of the depths and molest the waking world. Why don't they? Is it because the 'stars are wrong' (to quote Lovecraft again), or is it because the Valar keep them down there? If so, what is it about the surface world that the Valar use to keep them hidden? Is there any difference (i.e. does Varda decide whether the stars are right or wrong)?
Maybe they don't know that there is a waking world. As far as anyone knows, they're been there practically forever, since way before Sauron, and nothing I've ever heard mentions them. It's possible they've been under the mountains since their creation and never thought there would be anything else.
Has anyone ever wondered what would have happened if Smaug had ate Bilbo, and therefore the ring? It would be interesting to see Sauron send orcs to go diving for the Ring.
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Milady
Ossiriand
Mar 2 2008, 7:33pm
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The Overlord List is a genius piece of work.
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http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html
I suggest you read all of them, they really do bring to light some of the classic villain mistakes.
Has anyone ever wondered what would have happened if Smaug had ate Bilbo, and therefore the ring? It would be interesting to see Sauron send orcs to go diving for the Ring.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Mar 2 2008, 8:06pm
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If you find the text commands aren't working in advanced editor (the default screen, unless you've changed it in your set-up preferences), click on Switch to Basic Editor (at the bottom of the post field) and remove the html commands where necessary.
The areas you want in bold should start with (b) (but with square brackets) and end in (/b). The areas you don't want in bold should be outside those areas.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
(This post was edited by Ataahua on Mar 2 2008, 8:07pm)
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Mar 3 2008, 6:36am
Post #8 of 32
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I thought we had weekends off.....
1. How deep is that chasm? Can it even be measured in distance, or is what lies under the bottom of the mountains 'not of this world'?
Too deep to measure is how deep.
I guees you could measue by geetting alot of twine & putting a stone on the end & unwinding forever, then measuring the amount that was wet, but I bet the Dwarves tried that already.
What lies under it is 'this world', it's the same type of things down by Gollum's lake if you recall....
2. What do you make of the line 'they [the nameless things and their tunnels] are older than he [Sauron]'?
The exact same thing that Bombadil says to Frodo "I was here when the Dark Lord cam in from outside'. I believe it means that some things of the earth were here & byproducts of the Music of the Ainur, or created by the Valar before Morgoth & Sauron entered into Arda. The Silm specifically says that Melkor looked down upon the Valar in Arda & was jealous (or envious), so they were here before him.
3. Has anybody else here read At the Mountains of Madness by Lovecraft (1929)? Do you suppose that Tolkien knew about it? Do you envision shoggoths living under the Misty Mountains?
I think because Beren IV has read Lovecraft, he can't get past the fact that Tolkien might've been inspired by it. I somehow doubt it. Toklien was so busy with his school work, he barely had time to write & rewrite his own book.....
4. How did the Endless Stair get forgotten? Did Durin's tunnels connect to the tunnels underneath?
I always wondered if only a 'Durin' could use it.
And, was there any entrances & exists to it? There must've been, but not on the first level or they could've measured the depth of the fissure.
5. If Melkor sent Durin's Bane here, then presumably He also knew of the nameless things. Did Melkor name them? Did He make them?
No. The Simarillion tells us 'The Balrogs were all killed except some few who hid themselves in the deep places of the earth'. If anything, Morgoth was probably a little upset with this deserter.
As for naming them, 'nameless things' is a pretty stupid name if you ask me. Wouldn't they also be the 'Ancient Evils' mentioned in The Silm? It also says Melkor 'bred many other monsters of divers shapes and kinds that long troubled the world', so I would say Melkor BRED them, no he did not MAKE them, for 'nothing could new he make after his fall'.
6. I and somebody else discussed a while ago why the nameless things don't come up out of the depths and molest the waking world. Why don't they?
I don't believe it ever says that the nameless things don't come up out of the depths - if so, I'd like to see a quote. I believe the Watcher in the Water is a nameless thing. It sure is implied that it is: "'Something has crept or has been driven out of the deep waters under the mountains". This sure sounds like the area where Gandalf falls to & the nameless things are......
is it because the Valar keep them down there? If so, what is it about the surface world that the Valar use to keep them hidden? Is there any difference (i.e. does Varda decide whether the stars are right or wrong)?
The Valar never seem to have had or used this kind of long distance power inMiddle-earth. Take the creatures of 'horn & ivory' who 'dyed the earth with blood'. Orome had to come hunt them like a regular person would to get rid of some of them, so I think assuming that the Valar can just corral a whole group of beings by 'magical forcefeild' has no basis outside Star Trek..
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Mar 3 2008, 6:57am
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The Valar certainly do act at a distance
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The Valar never seem to have had or used this kind of long distance power inMiddle-earth.
Yes, they do. Wind is a very important motif in LotR, and wind in different directions has a very clear and present effect on the conditions of the story. When the wind is in the west, the skies clear, the sun shines, and the good guys win when the big battles happen. When the wind is in the east, the sky darkens, and evil advances, and the heroes can do very little to stop it. Even Sauron and Saruman, when they are forced into their spirtual forms, are dispersed by a wind in the west so that they no longer plague the world. From the prospective of somebody who is aware of the Valar, this is very plainly Manwë imparting His favor upon the good guys: the wind in the west is His weapon against the Enemy, and Varda's bright light brings hope to the Free Peoples. Yes, the battles are still fought with spears and arrows, but the outcome is determined by the clash of the Valar.
Now, if Manwë and Varda can keep the Orcs at bay when Melkor isn't invoking His own taint to stop them, then why cannot they also contain the Nameless Things? I'm not envisioning some kind of magical force field. I am suggesting instead that there is something that the surface world has, and which is provided by the Valar, that is hateful to the nameless horrors such that they dare not come forth to destroy the world of Elves and Men. This something could be as simple as sunlight (Varda), or wholesome clean air (Manwë), or leaves that glow green in the daytime (Yavanna). There need not be a force that physically prevents them from coming out.
I get the impression that you are thinking of magic in a Dungeons and Dragons like sense, where it is quantifiable, definite, and blatant. The fantastical nature of Arda doesn't work that way. Magic isn't a thing in Middle Earth, unless it is the Music of the Ainur, in which case everything is based in magic.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Mar 3 2008, 7:21am
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The wind may blow away Saruman's dead spirit, but it doesn't blow away Saruman while alive, just as the sun may discourage the Orcs but it does not defeat them.
And directly in the area of the nameless things, what about the Watcher in the Water?
Gandalf's statement, "Something has crept or been driven out of the dark waters under the mountains" confirms that it is a nameless thing & it is not contained......
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Mar 3 2008, 8:16am
Post #11 of 32
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The nameless things and endless stair
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They're nameless because nobody has bothered to catalog them (or at least, nobody who survived the experience).
Some of them (and I agree the Watcher in the Water may be one) have just been around from the dawn of time without figuring in any events we know of. Others, such as the Balrog, probably fled from past conflicts such as the War of Wrath, settled in down there, and for all we know like it there. They react to intruders much as we would, although their specific tactics differ.
The Endless Stair is a lovely bit of thrown-in mythology, one of the countless little references to vast feats of engineering and craftsmanship in the Good Old Days of Middle Earth, which are Gone and Will Never Come Again, along with the Argonath, the Hills of Seeing and Hearing, palantiri, etc. In short, a bit of atmosphere. I love it.
New grandson of Elizabeth, b. 2/25/2008
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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a.s.
Doriath
Mar 3 2008, 9:13am
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I'm betting some of our newer members haven't seen our discussions of wind direction in LOTR, and I'm on my laptop without my collection of Torn favorites/classics, etc.
Curious, one of our regulars, has written often on this and pretty compelling writing I must say.
Maybe NEB or someone else can link to a previous discussion?
Pretty safe to say many of us have come to see that wind direction (in particular) seems to be associated with "other powers at work" in ME.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Just look along the road, and tell me if you can see either of them."
"I see nobody on the road," said Alice.
"I only wish I had such eyes," the King remarked in a fretful tone. "To be able to see Nobody! And at that distance too! Why, it's as much as I can do to see real people, by this light!"
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Curious
Gondolin
Mar 3 2008, 1:56pm
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Long ago I came up with a shorter list for Sauron, I think with 14 points.
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As I recall it was well received at the time. Does anyone remember it or know how to find it? N.E.B.? Anyone?
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Mar 3 2008, 2:14pm
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Reminds me of the warden's saying in the Shawshank Redemption when Tim what's Hisname (Susan Sirrandon's guy) escapes & they can't find him...
"Haleiluyuh, He up & disappeared like a f#rt in the wind"
Well, the wind works like I see the Valar work in Middle-earth: Passive/aggresively I would (poorly) put it. The wind comes up & blows away both Saruman's & Sauron's spirit's after the people of Middle-earth deal with making Saruman & Sauron those harmless spririts.....
So, it's like the Valar observe & make a statement, but are not actively causing the downfall of evil in the 2nd or 3rd Ages, unless you say sending the Istari & getting lucky that 1 out of 5 helps 'rally the troops' after being sent back from death with greater power & being part of the victory is 'causing' when compared to sending The Host of the West in the Fall of Thangorodrim in the 1st Age - even there, it's after 500+ years of silence from the Valar (except Ulmo, "who seems to oppopse the will of his brethren" then by aiding the Elves of Middle-earth).
Tolkien himself writes that the Valar will leave those in Middle-earth to their own ends until the uttermost need.
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Curious
Gondolin
Mar 3 2008, 2:32pm
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Lots of readers agree with you.
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And I can't prove that the Valar are active in Middle-earth, I can only point to ambiguous signs that they may be at work -- but I find those signs so consistent that I have become convinced they are quite active indeed. The importance of wind direction is just one of those signs. The appearance or disappearance of Sun, Moon, Stars, fog or clean water are other signs. The appearance of the Great Eagles is important, but I think other birds are important as well, such as the gulls, or the black swans. Dreams and visions are signs, some more obviously than others. There's also the importance of coincidence, without which Frodo could never have made it into Mordor. And there are other little signs along the way, such as the crown of flowers on the head of the statue at the Crossroads to Mordor. Then there are the pronouncements of Gandalf, Tolkien's alter-ego, that luck and chance are more than coincidence, and that Someone chose Bilbo and Frodo to carry the Ring. There is Gandalf himself, sent to Middle-earth not once but twice by Higher Powers.
Tolkien does his best to maintain ambiguity about the role of Higher Powers because it is supremely important that the heroes must act on faith, not knowledge, that Providence is on their side. So feel free to reject this line of thinking. Tolkien did not want to force it on any reader, I'm convinced. But for those who like to think that the Higher Powers are active in Middle-earth, Tolkien provides plenty of fodder for such theories. This is very much unlike the world of Harry Potter, for example, where it seems doubtful that Higher Powers have any role in the story. But it is also unlike the world of Narnia, where Higher Powers have explicit roles in the story.
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Mar 3 2008, 2:46pm
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You know, I was thinking about Gandalf precisely, Curious, before you mentioned him & the return after his death......
Who sends him back?
Mandos? I don't think so. ...
"Then darkness took me & I strayed out of thought & time I wandered fa on roads I will not tell."
Do Maiar go to Mandos when they die? Who knows. But, I think 'The Darkness' indicated Gandalf/Olorin might be in The Void outside Arda whence The Ainur came from.
Therefore, I would guess that since The Valar are bound to Arda, Eru himself sent Ganfdalf back.
Besides, could the Valar increase the potency of Gandalf's inner being he was created with? I doubt that.
On the wind, I was thinking about the Fall of Numenor & the great wind that rises up to send Elendil & sons to Middle-earth.
This in no way can be attributed to the Valar as they have laid down their stewardship of Arda to Eru & it is he who is working the natural events that are occuring here.
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Curious
Gondolin
Mar 3 2008, 3:48pm
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I agree that Eru sent Gandalf back.
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I believe Tolkien says so explicitly in his letters.
My theory about the wind applies only to LotR. On the other hand, I do think the Valar play more of a role in The Sil than most readers give them credit for. Certainly Ulmo does, and so do Manwe's Great Eagles. I agree that the destruction of Numenor and, perhaps as importantly, the reshaping of the world that accompanied that destruction, was Eru's direct doing, although the Valar or even the Maiar could have played a part in saving the Faithful from that destruction.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Mar 3 2008, 4:14pm
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Under the Misty Mountains of Madness
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1. How deep is that chasm?
It goes all the way to the bottom.
Can it even be measured in distance,…
“Caverns measureless to man”, as Coleridge would say.
…or is what lies under the bottom of the mountains 'not of this world'?
Not of Man’s world.
2. What do you make of the line 'they [the nameless things and their tunnels] are older than he [Sauron]'?
They’re creatures of Morgoth, who is indeed older than Sauron.
3. Has anybody else here read At the Mountains of Madness by Lovecraft (1929)?
Yup.
Do you suppose that Tolkien knew about it?
He read pulp fiction like David Lindsay’s “A Voyage to Arcturus”, which is pretty Lovecraftian. Why not Lovecraft himself? Though I think if he did he would be more partial to the Dreamlands stories. Still, it’s interesting that both Lindsay and Lovecraft explore the apprehension and engagement of the Burkean Sublime, which, IMHO, Tolkien personifies in Bombadil.
Do you envision shoggoths living under the Misty Mountains?
Well, if you can envision a shoggoth, you’re in the depths of madness anyway.
4. How did the Endless Stair get forgotten?
Because the passwords to all the fire escape exits had been lost.
Did Durin's tunnels connect to the tunnels underneath?
I’d supposed it connected to all of Moria, like a huge fire escape. Or a secret passage with little peepholes cut in portraits and statuary.
5. If Melkor sent Durin's Bane here, then presumably He also knew of the nameless things.
It’s interesting that one of Lovecraft’s more successful stories was titled “The Unnamable”.
Did Melkor name them?
Logos is power. I’m sure he had power over them. That no one else knew their names would indicate that only Melkor had power over them.
Did He make them?
Either made them or corrupted them.
6. I and somebody else discussed a while ago why the nameless things don't come up out of the depths and molest the waking world. Why don't they?
There was no SPF 20,000 sunscreen on the market. This would explain why Morgoth was so keen on destroying the light of The Two Trees. Once that’s gone all his little nameless wiggly-worms come spilling out onto the surface of the world.
Is it because the 'stars are wrong' (to quote Lovecraft again), or is it because the Valar keep them down there?
Yes.
If so, what is it about the surface world that the Valar use to keep them hidden?
It’s interesting that Lovecraft’s concept was that the earth was a prison for The Old Ones. Certain structures, continents, and even Man’s consciousness itself were the bars and locks. But I’ll go with the light of The Two Trees.
Gaze no more in the bitter glass
The demons, with their subtle guile,
Lift up before us when they pass,
Or only gaze a little while;
For there a fatal image grows
That the stormy night receives,
Roots half hidden under snows,
Broken boughs and blackened leaves.
For all things turn to barrenness
In the dim glass the demons hold,
The glass of outer weariness,
Made when God slept in times of old.
-William Butler Yeats, The Two Trees
Is there any difference (i.e. does Varda decide whether the stars are right or wrong)?
She’s the one who used the light of The Two Trees to create the stars.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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a.s.
Doriath
Mar 3 2008, 4:32pm
Post #20 of 32
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Un-named by men, elves, or etc
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Did Melkor name them?
Logos is power. I’m sure he had power over them. That no one else knew their names would indicate that only Melkor had power over them.
"Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron..." (Sil, Valaquenta)
Emphasis mine. I agree that these things might have been named by Melkor alone, leaving them "nameless" (and thus unknown) to men, elves, etc. There's a reason Adam had dominion over the beasts of the fields and all living things, and it's connected to his naming of them, a power in naming.
Probably the nameless things are like Ungoliant: "some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdome of Manwe, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service". So there were already things that came out of the darkness and descended to Arda prior to Melkor's claiming them for his service, and some of these may still be un-named; perhaps not even Melkor named them; perhaps they serve no Lord and Master on Arda.
Just a thought.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Just look along the road, and tell me if you can see either of them."
"I see nobody on the road," said Alice.
"I only wish I had such eyes," the King remarked in a fretful tone. "To be able to see Nobody! And at that distance too! Why, it's as much as I can do to see real people, by this light!"
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Mar 4 2008, 2:46am
Post #21 of 32
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from Lovecraft, or (as I suspect) they had a common source?
The main reason why I am asking these questions is because I have a friend who has come to dislike Tolkien because in Tolkien's world the forces of good cannot lose because Ilúvitar will not allow it, and that's not true in Lovecraft. Yet, I am surprised to see these ancient evils in Tolkien that are alien and Lovecraft-like, and yet at the same time, this is the same world that is watched over by the Valar.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Mar 4 2008, 4:39am
Post #22 of 32
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One might suppose Lovecraft and Tolkien had their common sources in Lord Dunsany, Arthur Machen, Robert Chambers, William Hope Hodgson, and, of course, Edgar Allan Poe. (Tekeli-li!) Ultimately that's speculation, though.
However, we do know for a fact that they both read David Lindsay and Robert E. Howard.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 4 2008, 4:44am
Post #23 of 32
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I don't know if Lovecraft had done so.
C.S. Lewis certainly knew Hodgson's work, but I can't say the same of Tolkien (or Lovecraft).
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a.s.
Doriath
Mar 4 2008, 9:13am
Post #24 of 32
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Here's a review that's excerpted on several sites, for King of Elfland's Daughter:
"Inventor of a new mythology and weaver of surprising folklore, Lord Dunsany stands dedicated to a strange world of fantastic beauty...unexcelled in the sorcery of crystalline singing prose, and supreme in the creation of a gorgeous and languorous world of incandescently exotic vision. No amount of mere description can convey more than a fraction of Lord Dunsany's pervasive charm." H. P. Lovecraft
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"Just look along the road, and tell me if you can see either of them."
"I see nobody on the road," said Alice.
"I only wish I had such eyes," the King remarked in a fretful tone. "To be able to see Nobody! And at that distance too! Why, it's as much as I can do to see real people, by this light!"
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Dreamdeer
Doriath
Mar 4 2008, 5:56pm
Post #25 of 32
(2028 views)
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from Lovecraft, or (as I suspect) they had a common source?
The main reason why I am asking these questions is because I have a friend who has come to dislike Tolkien because in Tolkien's world the forces of good cannot lose because Ilúvitar will not allow it, and that's not true in Lovecraft. Yet, I am surprised to see these ancient evils in Tolkien that are alien and Lovecraft-like, and yet at the same time, this is the same world that is watched over by the Valar.
Maybe the forces of good cannot lose forever, but if you happen to live during a millenium of temporary setback, that is hardly a consolation! The Valar let things get pretty bad, for many generations, before they finally stepped in to expel Morgoth, and in doing so they trashed entire countries clean off the map. Later Sauron enjoyed a long dark age, long enough for men in various places to become accustomed to worshipping him, before being temporarily thwarted--and then he bounced right back again. And his very rise after Morgoth's fall indicates that just because you defeat one evil, that doesn't let you off the hook, because evil dark lords always leave behind heirs ready to take up the reins. Also remember that Gandalf said that he would not have failed if only one living thing on earth grows and is glad--so that sets a pretty low bar for winning, I'd say. Orcs might be despoiling Minas Tirith, the hobbits might all be enslaved, the elves all slain, and men fallen back to devil-worship, but halleluia, somewhere there's a subterranean mushroom having a happy day!
Conclusion: I think there's plenty of reason to sit on the edge of one's seat in fear that good won't win enough to save the day for the characters one cares most about.
My website http://www.dreamdeer.grailmedia.com offers fanfic, and message-boards regarding intentional community or faerie exploration.
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