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entmaiden
Forum Admin
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Jan 31 2008, 9:35pm
Post #26 of 132
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GDT has said he loved the Hobbit, it was LOTR he couldn't finish.
Peter's not "giving up" on directing the Hobbit. He has too much on his plate, and didn't want the fans to have to wait until he was free. So this is the best answer for everyone.
Peter also said once he would love to see someone else's treatment of Tolkien. Again - best of both worlds. Peter gets to see how someone else would approach a Tolkien story while still being involved.
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
(This post was edited by entmaiden on Jan 31 2008, 9:37pm)
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Tim
Dor-Lomin
Feb 1 2008, 1:10am
Post #27 of 132
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Over rated how so in an objective (not subjective) sense? King Kong was a huge success, making over 500 mil as was LOTR making very close to 3 bil. If my business was making movies, this guy would be on my hot list.
I know this isn't popular in this 'Jacksonian' era of PJ worship, but Peter Jackson is soooooooo over-rated...... The guy was plucked out of obscurity to make TLOR & has settled back into obscurity very nicely. His King Kong was the worst piece of 'poop' I've ever seen. While TLOR was still great & his 'look' of Middle-Earth was quite excellent & precise (purposely so & PJ says that in the Commentaries), it could've been much greater dueto his twisting of many characters, which was an abomination that must've had JRR Tolkien rolling over in his grave: Gandalf arrogantly pushing Pippin aside & rolling his eyes as Pippin offers 'fealty' to Denethor, let alone when he smashes Denethor in the face with his staff..... Aragorn not wanting to be king...... Elrond the Super Grouch...... Sauron the Lighthouse...... Frodo wandering around The Two Towers like a zombie & worst of all, "Go home, Sam."  And this two bit director is essential to a great Hobbit movie? Right!
Great, where are we going?
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AinurOlorin
Gondolin
Feb 1 2008, 1:17am
Post #28 of 132
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Smaug The Magnificent. . . I kinda understand you, but I am with Tolkien Forever
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as with so many things, my Balrog loving companion, lol.
Darkstone, what do you mean Tim Burton didn't direct Nightmare? Shut your mouth Lol
Now, I am not going as hard core as Tolkien Forever. But I agree that Jackson's strongest contributions were the pacing, the casting, and the look and feel of the films, much of which owed as much to the artists and artisans in the crew as to Jackson himself. My greatest appreciation to him is for his refusal to do the one film mess that the original studio asked of him.
I aprreciate, for life, the magnificent vision he gave us. But Perfect, or the best possible. . . no way kitten. He did a number of things wonderfully, some of the perfectly. Some of the ommissions he made were requisite to keeping the story linear, like that of Bombadil. SOme of the additions from the appendicies were deeply moving and lovely, like Arwen with Elrond in TTT.
But some of the changes were pointles, God awful, and down right unnecessary. You know how I feel about Gandalf, famed throughout Eregion, from Eriador to Rhovanion, Arnor to Gondor, Forodwaith to the fringes of Harad, for his blue hued fire enchantments, having most of those dazzling displays, against Nazgul and warg alike, deleted.
And it goes beyond that. There were lines that should have been left in, Galadriel's explanation of the plight of the Elves and its connection to the great ring (less than two minutes of dialogue for all you script critics), for one, Gandalf's commentary to Denthor on the nature of a Wizard's stewardship ( which would have fit in perfectly after Denethor's accusation and declaration that "The rule of Gondor" was his. Recall, Gandalf's "The rule of no realm is mine, neither of Gondor nor any other. . . but all things that are in peril as the world now stands, those are my care. . ."
I also cringed at Gandalf beating Denethor with the staff. Even if he had made him swoon, the way The Witch King did to Frodo, wouldn't that have been. . . you know, a little more classy. . . a little less savage. You know tere are still people who look over at me when Shadowfax practically kicks Denethor into the fire and ask. . . Did Gandalf just kill that man?" And the best I can say is, "God I hope not."
Saruman is portrayed entirely as a lackey of Sauron, instead of the double agent he was, plotting at all times to secure the ring for himself.
Don't get me started on The Witch king somehow breaking Gandalf's staff in ee ROTK, despite the litany of reasons we know that wouldn't have happened. First, it implies that a phantom lieutenant of Sauron was mightier than a Demon Lieutenant of Melkor the Morgoth. Tolkien himself pretty much debunked that notion. It might have been nice to see a modicum of The Balrogs sorcerous abilities. And why oh why did Glorfindel have to be entirely ommitted? If you can squeeze in Haldir, and make up captains to assist Faramir, surely a spoken line from Glorfindel, a mega-star of Tolkien fans, could have been worked in somewhere.
The Bottom Line? Peter did a lot marvelously right. More right than wrong. Yet there were things that he did wrong, and a few of them were eggregious. So. . . he is not the only person alive who can do a good job with the Hobbit, though I do think it an excellent idea to include him. Hopefully, all the positives he brought to LOTR will return with him, and the worst of the omissions and changes will be amended by the hand of the new recruit.
"Hear me, hounds of Sauron, Gandalf is here! Fly if you value your foul skins, I will shrivel you from tail to snout if you step within this circle!"
"Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends."
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Feb 1 2008, 2:08am
Post #29 of 132
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5 by 5, I think I'm just speaking about the quality of the film 'King Kong', not sucess.
Sucess is no way to judge films nowadays, for sure. Kong has seen two remakes & gone from an
all-time classic to mediocre to laugh-out-loud funny because it was so absurd despite it's special effects. The girl did everything but 'ahem' the ape.......
AinurOlorin makes very good points & I agree with them except Glorfindel. Yes, as a 'purist' I was appalled to see not only Arwen show up but do so with a sword at Aragorn's throat: "What's this? A Ranger caught at unawares?" If Aragorn was that easy to catch off guard, he'd have been dead many times over in his many travels.
However, i understood PJ's reasoning in cutting Glorfindel & adding Arwen: He wanted to beef up her role & make her seem more mighty while reducing another side character that would make the average Joe Moviegoer more confused with extra minor characters. That's why PJ cut Gil-Galad after starting to write him into the story & why Cirdan is shown but never mentioned by name. And, no Elladan & Elrohir, Elrond's twin sons, or Prince Imrahil, who was supposedly even cast.
I also agree about the lack of showing Gandalf's true 'magical' powers with fire. This is clearly explained by PJ in the Commentaries, I believe during Gandalf & Saruman's fight in Orthanc:
"I hate wizards shooting off blue lightning, blah, blah, blah...."
Obviously, a paraphrase, but the 'blue lightning' comes right from PJ's mouth & is an obvious smack at Star Wars. Too bad. There's many duels between Sith & Jedi's in SW that make Gandalf & Saruman pushing each other via staff look like child's play, & I'm not just talking about lightsabers, but 'blue lightning'.
The only accurate example of Gandalf's power is when the white light comes forth on the Pelanor Fields & the Nazgul fly away post haste, but that's hardly spectacular looking.
PJ shoulda included the Balrog & Gandalf silently battling to close the door to the Chamber of Mazarbul & then the door v & cieling collapsing. They could've had each or just Gandalf thinking aloud & them 'BOOM!' with Gandalf going down the stairs head over heels into the laps of the Fellowship.
Of course, that would've meant no jumping on the collapsing staircase & "Nobody tosses a dwarf."
Saruman calling down the storm on the Fellowship on Caradhras is very cool, but overexagerated - he shoulda had such power.
Now, we're supposed to believe Gandalf can break his staff yet the Witch-king can break Gandalfs??????
I do also think I should point out that I did enjoy the movies tremendously. As A.O. said, it was tremendous to see Middle-Earth brought to life & PJ was truely accurate to every detail in thaty respect.
However, I think the biggest problem I have is this over the top worship of Jackson; It almost seems to some of the posters on various sites that they think more of Peter Jackson than JRR Tolkien, like Jackson invented Middle-Earth & not Tolkien.
They certainly seem to hold PJ in greater esteem than JRRT......
I wonder if some of these type of people have ever even read TLOR or if they have, do they even know who Feanor, Turin, The Wainriders, Ulmo or Morgoth were?
Even one of the above?
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Tim
Dor-Lomin
Feb 1 2008, 2:24am
Post #30 of 132
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Over-rated is more than a subjective quality
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You are of course entitled to your opinion about the quality of PJ's work. I think you cross over into another subject when you start calling him "over-rated". I think you're mistaking "worship" with "earned confidence". People have seen PJ's finished product, and they are confident in buying more of it. I think it's obvious that other people besides PJ can make a great movie, but nobody has pulled off what PJ did in regards to LOTR - so this earns people's respect with more LOTR product. It's logic, not worship. Then of course you talk about groups of people and the rating of the director. He's not over-rated when one looks at the film industry. He's actually highly rated, right up there with Lucas and Spielberg. His films are not only huge financial successes, they've won Academy awards and are highly rated by critics. This is true whether you like any of his movies or not. As for people "worshiping" PJ more than JRRT, I can't speak to that except to say I haven't read it or heard it anywhere.
I wonder why you feel a need to question people regarding whether or not they've read the books? Why should it bother you? People can read and watch whatever they want. Let people take in Tolkien's universe at their own pace. Those of us who know who Morgoth is aren't necessarily better or worthier of this fiction than someone who does not. 
5 by 5, I think I'm just speaking about the quality of the film 'King Kong', not sucess.
Sucess is no way to judge films nowadays, for sure. Kong has seen two remakes & gone from an
all-time classic to mediocre to laugh-out-loud funny because it was so absurd despite it's special effects. The girl did everything but 'ahem' the ape.......
AinurOlorin makes very good points & I agree with them except Glorfindel. Yes, as a 'purist' I was appalled to see not only Arwen show up but do so with a sword at Aragorn's throat: "What's this? A Ranger caught at unawares?" If Aragorn was that easy to catch off guard, he'd have been dead many times over in his many travels.
However, i understood PJ's reasoning in cutting Glorfindel & adding Arwen: He wanted to beef up her role & make her seem more mighty while reducing another side character that would make the average Joe Moviegoer more confused with extra minor characters. That's why PJ cut Gil-Galad after starting to write him into the story & why Cirdan is shown but never mentioned by name. And, no Elladan & Elrohir, Elrond's twin sons, or Prince Imrahil, who was supposedly even cast.
I also agree about the lack of showing Gandalf's true 'magical' powers with fire. This is clearly explained by PJ in the Commentaries, I believe during Gandalf & Saruman's fight in Orthanc:
"I hate wizards shooting off blue lightning, blah, blah, blah...."
Obviously, a paraphrase, but the 'blue lightning' comes right from PJ's mouth & is an obvious smack at Star Wars. Too bad. There's many duels between Sith & Jedi's in SW that make Gandalf & Saruman pushing each other via staff look like child's play, & I'm not just talking about lightsabers, but 'blue lightning'.
The only accurate example of Gandalf's power is when the white light comes forth on the Pelanor Fields & the Nazgul fly away post haste, but that's hardly spectacular looking.
PJ shoulda included the Balrog & Gandalf silently battling to close the door to the Chamber of Mazarbul & then the door v & cieling collapsing. They could've had each or just Gandalf thinking aloud & them 'BOOM!' with Gandalf going down the stairs head over heels into the laps of the Fellowship.
Of course, that would've meant no jumping on the collapsing staircase & "Nobody tosses a dwarf."
Saruman calling down the storm on the Fellowship on Caradhras is very cool, but overexagerated - he shoulda had such power.
Now, we're supposed to believe Gandalf can break his staff yet the Witch-king can break Gandalfs??????
I do also think I should point out that I did enjoy the movies tremendously. As A.O. said, it was tremendous to see Middle-Earth brought to life & PJ was truely accurate to every detail in thaty respect.
However, I think the biggest problem I have is this over the top worship of Jackson; It almost seems to some of the posters on various sites that they think more of Peter Jackson than JRR Tolkien, like Jackson invented Middle-Earth & not Tolkien.
They certainly seem to hold PJ in greater esteem than JRRT......
I wonder if some of these type of people have ever even read TLOR or if they have, do they even know who Feanor, Turin, The Wainriders, Ulmo or Morgoth were?
Even one of the above?
"Sir are you classified as human?"
"Negative! I am a meat popsicle!"
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
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Feb 1 2008, 2:53am
Post #31 of 132
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Actually, most of us are capable
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of distinguishing between the books and the movies. In addition, we're able to formulate opinions about them both regardless of how much we may or may not have read about Tolkien.
We're able to accept all opinions without judgement or trying to one-up each other with our purported superior knowledge.
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Feb 1 2008, 2:55am
Post #32 of 132
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OK, 5 x 5......
I think you misinterpret a couple things I say or I need to clarify them better, OK?
The people I say 'worship' PJ & I wonder if they read the books are the kinds who are constantly saying "Only PJ can direct The Hobbit, it won't be any good with anyone else (absurd - as if his is the only vision of Middle-Earth), etc"......
I see many names here & elsewhere that only post on movie threads & never on subjects delving into the book related topics, hence my comment about 'I wonder if they've ever read the books'. They seem over enthuiastic about a stinking 10 hours worth of movies (sans EE) made over 5 years ago, yet show little interest in the 1300+ pages of books the movie came from.
Maybe I just see this as sad because it's like going to a great Chinese restaurant & ordering Chop Suey........
It will still be good, but you're missing the real delicasies.
Finally, from a standpoint of judging directors, you seem to take fiancial sucess as the benchmark to compare, not critical sucess. PJ has had one critical sucess while Lucas & Speiberg are widely acknowledged at the top of their profession.
Pj can come back in 15 years after many CRITICAL sucesses & be counted with these big boys, not after two big money making projects.
Besides, these guys have made tens of billions, not less than 2 billion putting them in the same catagory is like comparing Eli Manning with Tom Brady just because Manning has had 4 straight great games (very good actually).. Pardon the football analogy, but it is Super Bowl week & it fits.
BTW: This is simply a discussion....
"It's only buisness; Nothing personal." - The Godfather (Which, thankfully, PJ did not direct - if he had, Sonny woulda been throwing grenades at Solotzo) 
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Feb 1 2008, 3:25am
Post #33 of 132
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if a film has won awards, been praised by critics and made lots of money, but I don't like it, then I'd call it "overrated".
Said award-givers, critics, and audience members would in turn call me "insenstive" to the film's qualities.
Neither they nor I would be wrong.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Jan. 28-Feb. 3 for "Many Meetings".
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 1 2008, 3:53am
Post #35 of 132
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is that the majority of people here have been part of the discussion boards for many years, and have already discussed LOTR, The Hobbit, The Silmarillion, HOME and other works two or three times already, and may not be interested in taking part in a fresh round of discussions.
Lack of involvement in the Reading Room does not mean these posters aren't well-versed in the books.
I see many names here & elsewhere that only post on movie threads & never on subjects delving into the book related topics, hence my comment about 'I wonder if they've ever read the books'.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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a.s.
Doriath
Feb 1 2008, 3:53am
Post #36 of 132
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Do ya think that some of us who've been here awhile can tell the difference between the book we've read and loved for several decades and the movies we also love? Do ya think we might like both for their own beauties? Do ya think we can't tell the movies are tributes but vary from the novel? Skip some stuff? Change some scenarios? Shorten time frames?
Leave out Tom B? (I noticed that!)
You mean you think most of us know the books pretty well and still manage to like the films too and by gosh our brain cells are still intact?
Wow.
I think I agree!
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"And we must all bring Provisions."
"Bring what ?"
"Things to eat."
"Oh!" said Pooh happily. "I thought you said Provisions.
I'll go and tell them." And he stumped off.
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Tintallë
Mithlond
Feb 1 2008, 4:04am
Post #37 of 132
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Brilliant post (as usual). *mods up* NT///
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Tintallë
Mithlond
Feb 1 2008, 4:08am
Post #38 of 132
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Sauron the Lighthouse! Bwahahahahaha! NT///
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Feb 1 2008, 4:08am
Post #39 of 132
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to everything. As I used to say to my dad "I'm smarter than I look".
of course, dad would respond "and that's a good thing", but....nevermind.
Now, if you were going to discuss the evolution of the AB language in Ancrene Wisse......
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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Tim
Dor-Lomin
Feb 1 2008, 4:11am
Post #40 of 132
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It's all good, just a discussion
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Lucas was counted a Big Boy long before he made movies for 15 years. Ditto with Spielberg. Regarding critical success, I guess you're forgetting the Academy awards that LOTR won and/or was nominated for? Kong won Academy Awards for visual effects, sound mixing, and sound editing and hit an impressive 84% on rotten tomatoes. PJ has a lot of clout in the movie industry. He's no 2 bit director.
I'd type more, but the candles are burning dangerously low in my shrine to PJ, I just sent up a prayer to him that he bless Hellboy 2.
OK, 5 x 5...... I think you misinterpret a couple things I say or I need to clarify them better, OK? The people I say 'worship' PJ & I wonder if they read the books are the kinds who are constantly saying "Only PJ can direct The Hobbit, it won't be any good with anyone else (absurd - as if his is the only vision of Middle-Earth), etc"...... I see many names here & elsewhere that only post on movie threads & never on subjects delving into the book related topics, hence my comment about 'I wonder if they've ever read the books'. They seem over enthuiastic about a stinking 10 hours worth of movies (sans EE) made over 5 years ago, yet show little interest in the 1300+ pages of books the movie came from. Maybe I just see this as sad because it's like going to a great Chinese restaurant & ordering Chop Suey........ It will still be good, but you're missing the real delicasies. Finally, from a standpoint of judging directors, you seem to take fiancial sucess as the benchmark to compare, not critical sucess. PJ has had one critical sucess while Lucas & Speiberg are widely acknowledged at the top of their profession. Pj can come back in 15 years after many CRITICAL sucesses & be counted with these big boys, not after two big money making projects. Besides, these guys have made tens of billions, not less than 2 billion putting them in the same catagory is like comparing Eli Manning with Tom Brady just because Manning has had 4 straight great games (very good actually).. Pardon the football analogy, but it is Super Bowl week & it fits. BTW: This is simply a discussion.... "It's only buisness; Nothing personal." - The Godfather (Which, thankfully, PJ did not direct - if he had, Sonny woulda been throwing grenades at Solotzo)
"Sir are you classified as human?"
"Negative! I am a meat popsicle!"
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
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Feb 1 2008, 4:13am
Post #41 of 132
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I love parents with an evil sense of humour - particulary as it gives them no comeback when the kids do the same to them. 
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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a.s.
Doriath
Feb 1 2008, 4:17am
Post #42 of 132
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say, you look pretty smart AND cute
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I've seen you!!
So you noticed they left out Tom B too, did ya?
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"And we must all bring Provisions."
"Bring what ?"
"Things to eat."
"Oh!" said Pooh happily. "I thought you said Provisions.
I'll go and tell them." And he stumped off.
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
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Feb 1 2008, 4:30am
Post #43 of 132
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Who's Tom B? I liked Leggy the best
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he was sooooo cute, and he was the hero of the movie, for sure.
Unlike the book purists, I can be multi-dimensional.
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
(This post was edited by entmaiden on Feb 1 2008, 4:31am)
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Feb 1 2008, 4:51am
Post #45 of 132
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I never said that the majority of people here or on other sites did anything.......
I said 'many' & 'seem' to show interest in the movie more than the book.
And just go to the 'Main' Section & check out the Threads & I think you'll see what I mean. For every Thread that discusses the Book, there's 2-4 that discuss the Movie.
And, for every post that dicusses the Movie, 75% gush & gush over PJ the Magnificent (gag) - sorry, couldn't resist.
Again, Oscars mean nothing - look at some of the junk that has won in recent years & even in the past. Look at 1955 or 56. 'Around the World In 80 Days', the most boring film ever beats out 'The Ten Commandments', an epic & now legendary movie - go figure.
Bottom line is, if you love PJ, you'll argue to the end's of the world & fail to see things any other way.
You'll never convince us purists though.
What more needs to be said?
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Tim
Dor-Lomin
Feb 1 2008, 4:55am
Post #46 of 132
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Well if you don't care about the Academy why are you asking for critical successes?
"Sir are you classified as human?"
"Negative! I am a meat popsicle!"
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Tim
Dor-Lomin
Feb 1 2008, 4:57am
Post #47 of 132
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You'll never convince us purists though.
Of what? You say yourself that you enjoyed the movies. No offense, but I'm confused.
"Sir are you classified as human?"
"Negative! I am a meat popsicle!"
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Tim
Dor-Lomin
Feb 1 2008, 5:08am
Post #48 of 132
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I haven't done a scientific poll
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But I'm willing to bet this is due a lot in part to people comparing the adaptations to the novels.
For every Thread that discusses the Book, there's 2-4 that discuss the Movie.
"Sir are you classified as human?"
"Negative! I am a meat popsicle!"
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Feb 1 2008, 5:11am
Post #49 of 132
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I enjoyed the movies, BUT:
PJ's twisting of the 'essence' of many of the characters was an abomination.
And this blatant Peter Jackson worship/ 'PJ can do no wrong' attitude is enough to make a Balrog vomit forth charcoal.
One can enjoy a movie but still see holes in it.
Don't critics rate movies on a 4 star scale?
Or is a every movie a 'thumbs up' or 'thumbs down' rating only?
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