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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Jan 25 2008, 3:55am
Post #1 of 16
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***FLIGHT TO THE FORD*** Discussion 5/? The tracking of our travelers' footsteps and initial information on our mighty Elf-lord, the one and only, Glorfindel (or are there two? ;)
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Geography and the route the travelers took…
and the long-awaited discussion of Glorfindel (s)!
Let’s mark some of their progress by referring to Karen Wynn Fonstad’s *wonderful* reference The Atlas of Middle-earth which is placed in a chart on this site:
http://home.insightbb.com/~eowynchallenge/Tools/Bag_end/bag_end.html
Keep in mind that the estimate for walking per day is about 2-2.5 mph (24 to 30 min).
As soon as the day was full, on Oct. 7, the Company crossed the Road and entered the thickets on the south. The land was “wild and pathless,” and “their journey was slow.” Still, they marched more quickly than they had in the woods, marshes, and hill-lands west of Weathertop. In little more than five days they covered the 120 miles to the Last Bridge.
Frodo was on pony from Oct. 7th to Oct. 12th and the travelers averaged 19 miles per day at about 1.7 miles per hour. They went pretty quickly south of the Great East Road while walking in a valley…Land is starting to rise when they reach the Mithetheil since Merry could see Bruinen from a distance. Oct 13, they return to the Great East Road, and then they turn north from the road on their way to the Trollshaws. On the 13th, it is noted that they only made 7 miles, a drastic drop from the 19 projected miles from before. When they crossed the bridge into the path north of the road, they continued slower for the walkers “had to pick their way…encumbered by fallen trees and tumbled rocks.” From Oct. 14th to the 16th, they average 6 miles because of the climbing they have to do and the weather becomes wet during the day. On the 17th, rain stops and they turn south from the cold ridge.
When they’re at the Western Trollshaws, they averaged 6-10 miles per day. It was difficult navigating through there because of pathless roads.
They march on seven miles when they return to the road and they march all night till dawn for 20 miles with the arrival of Glorfindel on the 18th of October. During the subsequent two days, they speed up, 20 and 18 miles respectively on Oct. 19th and 20th.
From Fonstad’s Atlas:
A mile east of the Bridge, they turned up a narrow ravine that led north. Here again, as in The Hobbit pathways map, two variations have been shown in the Trollshaws: the original map, based on the 1965 edition of The Hobbit in which the Trolls’ camp seemed to be near a lesser stream closer to the Bruinen. With either, the reader can at least gain a visual impression of the number of days spent off the Road and of the relative directions followed through the rugged lands.
…
After following the ravine north they probably attempted to go east, but on October 16 were “forced to turn northwards out of their course”. The next day they started late and headed southeast, but once more were blocked by a ridge where they were forced to spend the night. On October 18, they found a path leading southeast to the Road, and at mid-day discovered Bilbo’s stone-trolls.
…
I bring up all this because I like noting down the roads the travelers went through and the speed they went in is all very interesting…(and I like an excuse to look through The Atlas of Middle Earth) ;)
Any thoughts about speed they took, about feasibility or accuracy is welcome!
…
GLORFINDEL TIME!!!!
(The tale of two Glorfindels)
The travelers get a surprise visitor at night in the form of a beautiful elf. No folks, it’s not Arwen, but the great Elf-lord, Glorfindel! Before we get into the actual scene of meeting Glorfindel, let’s have some background on who this elf is. Glorfindel of Gondolin or Glorfindel of Rivendell? Now there is much debate on whether this elf is from the First Age, the same one that killed the Balrog …
There seems to be a discrepancy on Encyclopedia of Arda about it:
A noble Elf of Gondolin, who fled the Fall of that city with Tuor and Idril and whose battle with a Balrog in the Encircling Mountains secured their escape with their son Eärendil.
http://www.glyphweb.com/...da/g/glorfindel.html
A noble Elf of Rivendell, who fought at the Battle of Fornost and, a thousand years later, helped Frodo Baggins and his companions to reach the House of Elrond and evade the pursuit of the Black Riders.
http://www.glyphweb.com/...a/g/glorfindel2.html
Now I haven’t read The Peoples of Middle-earth (The History of Middle-earth Vol. 12): XIII Last Writings, Glorfindel. But from what I’ve gathered from the first link to EoA, they made Glorfindel into the two entries seen above linked because at first, Tolkien firstr made them to be different but then changed his mind, which is mentioned in HoME.
So what does everyone think? Is there consensus about whether this is the same Glorfindel that killed the Balrog reincarnated? Should we take the footnote from HOME as the final word?
In Rivendell, Glorfindel is described “tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of joy; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was strength.”
Gandalf tells Frodo that he is "one of the mighty of the Firstborn," "an Elf-lord of a house of princes."
Handsome elflord there, I’ll say. ;) His name means “golden-hair” or “blonde”. Some of his fame and reputation for being a great fighter comes from his accomplishments in the Third Age from the Battle of Fornost where he battled the Witch-king, leading the Elvish forces of Rivendell, the Grey Havens, and Lothlórien. He fights with King Eanur in the First Age and is the one who prophesized that the Witch-king will fall but not from the hand of a man.
…
More about Glorfindel in relation to the actual scene from FttF in the next post…
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
(This post was edited by elentari3018 on Jan 25 2008, 3:59am)
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 25 2008, 8:47pm
Post #3 of 16
(1777 views)
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The land was “wild and pathless,” and “their journey was slow.” Still, they marched more quickly than they had in the woods, marshes, and hill-lands west of Weathertop. In little more than five days they covered the 120 miles to the Last Bridge.
Frodo was on pony from Oct. 7th to Oct. 12th and the travelers averaged 19 miles per day at about 1.7 miles per hour. They went pretty quickly south of the Great East Road while walking in a valley…Land is starting to rise when they reach the Mithetheil since Merry could see Bruinen from a distance. Oct 13, they return to the Great East Road, and then they turn north from the road on their way to the Trollshaws. On the 13th, it is noted that they only made 7 miles, a drastic drop from the 19 projected miles from before. When they crossed the bridge into the path north of the road, they continued slower for the walkers “had to pick their way…encumbered by fallen trees and tumbled rocks.” From Oct. 14th to the 16th, they average 6 miles because of the climbing they have to do and the weather becomes wet during the day. On the 17th, rain stops and they turn south from the cold ridge.
When they’re at the Western Trollshaws, they averaged 6-10 miles per day. It was difficult navigating through there because of pathless roads.
“Pathless”. It’s rather curious that there were no hidden paths that experienced ranger Strider would know about. One would think that Strider had traveled from the Shire to Bree to Weathertop to Rivendell many times. Albeit there is the regular road, but since as he said he has to be cautious of traps laid for him by the Enemy I’d think he’d have done a lot of off-road travel.
Still, the absence of game paths in the wild does indeed indicate the paucity of fauna.
After following the ravine north they probably attempted to go east, but on October 16 were “forced to turn northwards out of their course”. The next day they started late and headed southeast, but once more were blocked by a ridge where they were forced to spend the night.
I can understand being surprised by fallen trees. But a huge ridge in their way that Strider didn’t know about? Those things don’t pop up overnight! (Do they?)
So what does everyone think? Is there consensus about whether this is the same Glorfindel that killed the Balrog reincarnated?
Supposedly no two elves are named the same. Which begs the question how do they know? If two pregnant elves hundreds of miles apart give birth at the same time and one beats the other to a good name by a couple of minutes how does the other know the name is now taken? Is there some sort of psychic collective unconscious Elven birth registry?
Should we take the footnote from HOME as the final word?
Well, supposedly Tolkien was hoping to get The Silmarillion published along with LOTR. So I think this is his attempt at drumming up an audience with a crossover, like say when Laverne and Shirley made their first appearance on "Happy Days". Of course the “Happy Days” Laverne and Shirley weren’t quite the same as the “Laverne and Shirley” Laverne and Shirley. But on the other hand, the “Happy Days” Mork was pretty much the same as the “Mork and Mindy” Mork. I guess it depends on the time spent in development. You can argue that the “Lord of the Rings” Glorfindel is more like “Happy Days” Laverne and Shirley, but I’m sure that with a bit more work Tolkien would have gotten him more like “Happy Days” Mork.
In Rivendell, Glorfindel is described “tall and straight; his hair was of shining gold, his face fair and young and fearless and full of joy; his eyes were bright and keen, and his voice like music; on his brow sat wisdom, and in his hand was strength.”
Gandalf tells Frodo that he is "one of the mighty of the Firstborn," "an Elf-lord of a house of princes."
But if Gildor Inglorion was indeed of the House of Finrod he’d still outrank Glorfindel, right?
Handsome elflord there, I’ll say. ;)
I still prefer Arwen, but admittedly her décolletage probably has a lot to do with my preferences.
His name means “golden-hair” or “blonde”.
So that means his Dunlending name would be “Forgoil”, which sort of sounds somewhat like “Fingon”, or like someone maybe hiccupped while trying to say “Fingolfin”. Coincidence?
Some of his fame and reputation for being a great fighter comes from his accomplishments in the Third Age from the Battle of Fornost where he battled the Witch-king, leading the Elvish forces of Rivendell, the Grey Havens, and Lothlórien.
Yeah, and look how Fornost ended up. Rather than a Mars Arnor needed a Minerva. Someone who would not only win the war, but win the peace. Someone who after victory would lay aside their weapons, become a healer, and love all things that grow. Yeah, give me Eowyn over Glorfindel any day. And she whups WiKi besides.
He fights with King Eanur in the First Age and is the one who prophesized that the Witch-king will fall but not from the hand of a man.
Yeah, but he’s not a man, he’s an elf. So why couldn't he whup WiKi?
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jan 25 2008, 8:55pm)
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squire
Gondolin
Jan 25 2008, 9:29pm
Post #4 of 16
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Who can guess which of the following articles comes from the J. R. R. Tolkien Encyclopedia (Drout, ed., 2006), and which from The J. R. R. Tolkien Companion and Guide (Scull and Hammond, 2006).
And which is "better" - A or B?
A. GLORFINDEL
Late in life, while preparing "The Silmarillion" for publication, Tolkien addressed the issue of whether Glorfindel, Elf-lord of Rivendell in The Lord of the Rings, was to be the same character as Glorfindel, chief of the House of the Golden Flower of Gondolin from his earlier stories. He admitted that the issue arose from The Lord of the Ring's "somewhat random use of names found in the older legends." When Tolkien considered the "repetition of so striking a name" to be unlikely within his created world, he concluded that one identity might "actually explain what is said of him [in LotR] and improve the story" (Peoples, 379-80).
Glorfindel ("golden-haired"), a lieutenant of King Turgon, first appeared in 1917's "Fall of Gondolin," in which he and his people fought valiantly, holding the rear as the survivors, including young Eärendel, retreated from the city. Encountering a Balrog in the mountains, Glorfindel attacked the enemy, plunging them both to their deaths. His body was recovered by the Lord of Eagles, and a stone cairn was erected where afterward grew yellow flowers (Lost Tales II, 194). This story, set in Middle-earth's First Age, was retold in multiple narratives throughout Tolkien's life, and a condensed version is given in The Silmarillion.
A 1938 Lord of the Rings outline, stating that "Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin," reveals that Tolkien initially considered reusing the earlier character (Shadow, 214). Gandalf’s description of the mighty "Elf-lord of a house of princes," whose shining white figure thwarted the Nazgûl, definitely hints at Glorfindel's deeper past and greater powers (FR, II, i, 235). He also displays unusual wisdom at the Council of Elrond: hesitating to send the Ring to Bombadil, first suggesting the Ring's destruction, and voicing a willingness to sacrifice the Three Rings to accomplish this end. Further, he is recorded as the Elf-lord who defeated Angmar earlier in the Third Age (RK, Appendix A, 331-332). However, the unequivocal death of Glorfindel of Gondolin may possibly have prevented Tolkien from making an explicit connection between the two in the published Lord of the Rings.
Tolkien had actually considered Elven reincarnation by the time of The Lord of the Ring's publication (Letters, 187) and developed it extensively afterward (Morgoth, 207-52): essentially, slain Elf spirits would return to the Halls of Mandos in Valinor to await judgment, and those chosen could readopt bodily form. Flieger suggests that Tolkien's Catholicism initially made this idea theologically problematic, until he realized he could intellectually accept the concept (Flieger, 134-35, 168). Though he admitted reincarnation to be "bad theology" and difficult biology, Tolkien described it as "a biological dictum in my imaginary world ... its purpose largely literary" (Letters, 189). Whether Glorfindel's situation influenced this process is unknown, but Tolkien certainly employed it in his late writings devoted to unifying the Elf's identity.
The major obstacle, Tolkien wrote, was Glorfindel's status as a Noldor Exile. He resolved the issue by explaining that Glorfindel, "of high and noble spirit," left Valinor reluctantly because of kinship and allegiance to Turgon, and was blameless in the Kinslaying. Moreover, his sacrifice was deemed "of vital importance to the designs of the Valar." Thus, Glorfindel, purged of any guilt, was granted an exception to the Exiles' ban. He was then restored and allowed to dwell in Valinor, almost an equal of the Maiar, for "his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced." Tolkien speculates that there he became a companion of Olórin/Gandalf (Peoples, 380-81).
One mystery left unsolved, however, concerns Glorfindel's return to Middle-earth. Tolkien suggests that he may have come back with Gandalf in the Third Age but stated that it was more probable that Glorfindel returned during the Second Age, since breaching the divide between Valinor and the Circles of the World would make him "of greater power and importance than seems fitting." He therefore proposes SA 1600, when war with Sauron became inevitable and messages were sent to Valinor, as the most likely date (Peoples, 377-82).
Since all of this was as yet unpublished when The Silmarillion was posthumously released, a real mystery suddenly took hold among readers concerning Glorfindel's death and subsequent "reappearance" in The Lord of the Rings, forcing various Tolkien compendiums into speculation (Foster, 212; Tyler, 249). Only with the History of Middle-earth's complete publication is Tolkien's idea of an improved story for Glorfindel possibly realized.
B. GLORFINDEL
Discussion, published with commentary in The Peoples of Middle-earth (1996), pp. 377-82. In this Tolkien considers whether the Glorfindel who appears in The Lord of the Rings was the same as the Glorfindel of Gondolin who died in battle in the First Age, and if so, how he returned to Middle-earth. The first of two manuscripts (lacking its first page) suggests that the Glorfindel of Gondolin, after purging his sins in Mandos, was re-embodied and lived in Valinor until he returned to Middle-earth with Gandalf about Third Age 1000. In a note written between this version and the second manuscript, Tolkien suggested that Glorfindel might have returned in the Second Age in a Númenórean ship.
Tolkien began a second, five-page manuscript with a discussion of the name Glorfindel, which had originally appeared in The Fall of Gondolin (The Book of Lost Tales), written in 1916-17: 'It was intended to mean "Golden-tressed"', and 'its use in The Lord of the Rings is one of the cases of the somewhat random use of names found in the older legends ... which escaped reconsideration in the final published form of The Lord of the Rings. This is unfortunate, since the name is now difficult to fit into Sindarin, and cannot possibly be Quenyarin' (The Peoples of Middle-earth, p. 379). He summarizes what was already written about Glorfindel, published and unpublished, and finally rejects the 'simplest solution' that the two Glorfindels were different persons. 'No other major character in the Elvish legends ... has a name borne by another Elvish person of importance' (p. 380). He notes that the identification of the two would serve to explain why Glorfindel appears as such a powerful figure in The Lord of the Rings. He then proceeds to explain why after his re-embodiment Glorfindel was allowed to remain in Valinor (minimizing his part in the rebellion of the Noldor, and emphasizing his self-sacrifice defending the fugitives from Gondolin), and decides that he must have returned to Middle-earth to aid Gil-galad and Elrond in the Second Age before the World was changed.
In notes to these manuscripts, Tolkien also discusses two uses of the name Galdor (probably the same person, pp. 387-8, notes 1 and 3).
Both manuscripts probably date from the end of 1972 or from 1973. Part of a draft on the related topic of 'Elvish Reincarnation' is written on the manuscript of the first version.
Nothing is said of Glorfindel's history in The Lord of the Rings, but in the summer of 1938, in a note related to the then still unwritten account of the Council of Elrond, Tolkien included the phrase 'Glorfindel tells of his ancestry in Gondolin', making it clear that this was not quite the random re-use of a name as suggested in this late text. (See The Return of the Shadow, pp. 214-15) and Reader's Companion, pp. 192-4.) It is significant that even late in his life, when he became concerned with the problem of how Glorfindel returned to Middle-earth, Tolkien apparently never chose to change the name of the Elf of Gondolin, which had not yet appeared in a published work.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 25 2008, 9:51pm
Post #5 of 16
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Here's something interesting (from our previous discussion of of LotR) which did not make it into either of those two articles.
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Ainu Laire
Dor-Lomin
Jan 25 2008, 11:56pm
Post #6 of 16
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His parents weren't that creative, eh?
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I mean, "blonde"? Who in the world names their kid blonde? And it's in a language that they speak regularly. Or was he one of the first children to wake up at the lake-that-starts-with-a-C. Cuivenen or something.
Though isn't Glorfindel Sindarin? I thought they spoke Quenya in Valinor, and I think he was from there. Or is Glorfindel actually Quenya? My mind is dying on me.
Thanks for the estimates, very interesting stuff.
As for who he is- there is only one, in my mind. I just cannot see another Glorfindel, period.
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Ainu Laire
Dor-Lomin
Jan 25 2008, 11:58pm
Post #7 of 16
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Where is that information from, where only one elf has a name? Is it from LACE? I have never heard that before.
Wow, if that were the case, 1000s of years after the Ring-war, they'd start running out of ideas for names... they might start doing what's popular with us mortal folk nowadays and making up names instead XD
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 26 2008, 1:13am
Post #8 of 16
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"At any rate what at first sight may seem the simplest solution must be abandoned: sc. that we have merely a reduplication of names, and that Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell were different persons. This repetition of so striking a name, though possible, would not be credible. No other major character in the Elvish legends as reported in The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings has a name borne by another Elvish person of importance. Also it may be found that acceptance of the identity of Glorfindel of old and of the Third Age will actually explain what is said of him and improve the story"
-History of Middle-Earth XII, Last Writings.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Jan 28 2008, 5:53am
Post #9 of 16
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But if Gildor Inglorion was indeed of the House of Finrod he’d still outrank Glorfindel, right? Do we get anywhere about Glorfindel's genealogy and who are his parents, grandparents, etc?
I really laughed at your comment about two elves being born in the same time and the Elvish birth registry joke, :D
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Feb 1 2008, 12:00am
Post #10 of 16
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Tolkien's last word on the subject of Glorfindel makes it clear that the Elf of Gondolin & Rivendel are the same.
I like the point about his parents naming him 'blonde', LOL, although it seems that most foreign names mean something like that too.
However, my name is Michael, i.e., 'Servant of God' (which I am - took long enough however). Imagine folks walking around saying, "Whats up, Servant of God?"
The one question I find that really remains about Glorfindel is when vhe returned to Middle-Earth.
Tolkien, in those two Essays in HoME #12 isn't definite himself, plus they are 'Last Writings' & near the end of his life, so he may not have finished his thoughts.
It seems odd to me that a mighty Elf like Glorfindel would show up in the 2nd Age & never be mentioned until the Third Age 1000 with the White Council (which he states at The Council of Elrond he was in while discussing Saruman & The Ring rolling to the sea). Wouldn't Glorfindel have been in The Last Alliance & likely have been in the final battle on the slopes of Mount Doom with Isildur, Elendil, Gil-Galad, Cirdan & Elrond?
That's why I think the Glorious One showed up in the 3rd Age & think if Tolkien had thought it out, he'd have concluded this too.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Feb 1 2008, 12:22am
Post #11 of 16
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However, my name is Michael, i.e., 'Servant of God' (which I am - took long enough however).
Interesting. Here's an earlier TORN post on the meaning of the name "Michael":
It is a rhetorical question: Who is like (a) G/god? Answer, of course: no-one. Attested already in the 3rd Millennium B.C., it is the oldest name still in use to-day.
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Tolkien Forever
Mithlond
Feb 1 2008, 1:24am
Post #12 of 16
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I've been told servant of God, which I try to be, LOL......
Who is like God, none not one......
Well, one - JC.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 26 2008, 3:13am
Post #14 of 16
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having offered feedback during the drafting of one of these articles.
However, the first article addresses the character, Glorfindel, while the second focuses on the “Glorfindel” texts that were eventually published in The Peoples of Middle-earth. I find the two articles of about equal merit. The first tells us a good deal more about the character, but suffers a little from a lack of editorial assistance. For instance, it rehashes information on reincarnation that is covered in other articles in the same volume.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 26 2008, 3:16am
Post #15 of 16
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I can understand being surprised by fallen trees. But a huge ridge in their way that Strider didn’t know about? Those things don’t pop up overnight! (Do they?)
I guess he overstated in Bree when he said he knew all the lands between there and Rivendell. But actually the text here says that their way was blocked, not that Strider is surprised to find their way blocked -- maybe he knew all day long that they'd face a climb at the end. On the other hand, I find it believable that he doesn’t actually know every one of those thousands of square miles. But when climbs to the top of that ridge, he figures out where he is.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 26 2008, 3:17am
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Or “Koivië-néni” – dna wrote that Encyclopedia entry too.
Glorfindel is a Noldor elf, perhaps with Vanyar heritage, given his hair color. His birth language would have been Quenya, but the exiled Noldor adopted Sindarin in Beleriand, because everybody else was using it, and kept doing so at Thingol’s insistence.
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