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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Jan 24 2008, 3:05am
Post #1 of 27
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***FLIGHT TO THE FORD*** Discussion 4/? “There *are* trolls! Down in a clearing in the woods not far below. We got a sight of them through the tree-trunks. They are very large!” -- Pippin
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Drawing by Robert Goldsmith
In the next section, we are going towards the trollshaws and have a scene which brings back some the lightness in mood of the Hobbit. The event of discovering the trolls mentioned in Bilbo’s story is a surprise to Pippin and the others and we will spend some time discussing this.
But first, there is description of the surprising path getting there:
”…there were clearly the beginnings of a path that climbed with many windings out of the woods below and faded away on the hil-top behind. … It was a path made by strong arms and heavy feet.”
Whose strong arms and feet were they made by? The men of Numenor of the past? As Strider has said previously, trolls do not build and it wouldn’t’ make sense for trolls to make a path such as this since they probably wouldn’t want any lurker to go around “their” property. So the only logical answer would be the Numenoreans… Or are they other possibilities?
Finally the ground becomes easier. After they come across a long-abandoned troll hole, Merry and Pippin go on ahead, but run back saying they have seen trolls in a clearing.
In the stony wall there was a door hanging crookedly ajar upon one great hinge.
This description reminds me of a cave of a sort…the door “hanging crookedly” makes me think of someone busting in and breaking it. Or perhaps it has become that way through long tear and wear. I was just struck by this description since it feels like someone has broken in and that made me think of the door from Tumnus’ home in Narnia.
The hobbits Sam and Merry and Strider push into the door and find that it is a troll-hole. Pippin expresses fear to go through it, knowing about trolls in stories and knowing what they would do if they found hobbits and a Ranger… Strider thinks it is abandoned and urges them to go ahead.
However, Merry and Pippin come back very afraid of the trolls that there are. Strider wants to look at them and brings only a stick… Surely you need more than a stick to battle a troll… Or is he already suspicious that it is a troll that would not be threatening?
There stood the trolls: three large trolls. One was stooping, and the other two stood staring at him.
 Painting from Alan Lee
Strider goes and hits the troll, not realizing that it has already turned to stone. Frodo realizes that these are the trolls from Bilbo’s story and exclaims that they were forgetting their “family history”. =) The travelers have a good laugh. These are none other than the three trolls, William, Bert and Tom, that Bilbo and the Dwarves met, who became stone when they were caught outside at dawn, arguing over how to cook their captives.
Did Tolkien insert this scene on purpose to have some continuity from the Hobbit? Since LotR is a sequel from the Hobbit and the public and the publishers were asking for a hobbit sequel of sorts from hobbit, do you think it was a conscious decision that made Tolkien have the hobbits meet up with one of characters from the Hobbit?
“I had no idea we were anywhere near the place!” said Pippin. He knew the story well. Bilbo and Frodo had told it often; but as a matter of fact he had never more than half believed it. Even now he looked at the stone trolls with suspicion, wondering if some magic might not suddenly bring them to life again.
I want to mention this Pippin surprise for two reasons.
1-- I want to ask all of you if there is a story in life that you’ve heard many times, not expecting it to be real, but finally realizing that indeed, it is real? There are many childhood stories that are told many times by parents and older folk that do not seem to be real but then finally you go to a place or meet someone that you never thought would happen. Surprises like these always happen in life so it’s quite common to share of such an instance.
2--This troll story definitely probably didn’t seem real in Pippin’s eyes. Now, here they are, standing tall in front of him. As we go on reading LotR and as the hobbits go on more adventures, they seem to realize more of their “childhood” fantasies becoming alive. Who would’ve thought that Frodo would go to Mordor, a tall tale of evil so far away? Who would have thought there were trees that can actually talk and walk? (As we see Merry and Pippin eventually meet the Ents.) And Sam finally meeting Elves is definitely an eye-opener, make no mistake.
There is a transition to some light-heartedness of Sam’s song of when they find the stone trolls from Bilbo’s stories—Did you find this part of the chapter a change from the descriptive nature of the chapter and was quite relieved to find something that was reminiscent of the Hobbit?
We also see Frodo’s spirits reviving; Bilbo’s adventures are heartening to him and the morning sun definitely helps bring cheer to his heart.
Now the infamous Sam song:
There is a link to Tolkien singing the song here:
Tolkien sings the troll song! (courtesy of finding it in Rosie Lass’ old discussion)
At first, I didn’t’ really like this song actually. But listening to it being sung by Tolkien is quite cheering. =)
Standing up, with his hands behind his back, as if he was at school, he began to sing to an old tune.
Did all hobbit children have to put their hands behind his back to sing or recite lessons at school? However, do working class hobbit children like Sam even have a chance to go to school? Does Sam think it shows more respect to others if he put his hands in back? Or is it just the way to be proper?
Frodo was home-schooled by Bilbo and we learn that Sam was also. I think in older days, schoolchildren did recite with their hands behind their backs. Did Tolkien get this image from when he was in primary school?
This is the second time we here Sam sing; first it was about Gil-ga-lad and now, we hear this song from him. Indeed there is more to Sam that meets the eye.
And I’m going to quote one of my favorite quotes from the chapter (my second favorite one…for my favorite one is on my siggy. ;)
“It’s out of his own head, of course,” said Frodo. “I am learning a lot about Sam Gamgee on the journey. First he was a conspirator, now he’s a jester. He’ll end up by becoming a wizard – or a warrior!”
And then Sam answers modestly that he doesn’t want to be either.
Frodo really foreshadows Sam’s later role in this. In fact, Sam surprises both Merry and Pippin too by knowing so many poems and songs. Sam later does become somewhat of a warrior in the fight in Shelob’s lair. It wasn’t by choice but out of necessity in protecting Frodo, but before the Quest, it seems that gentle, shy Sam does not get into much combat and during that battle, he certainly showed courage at need.
Also, in the ’05 discussion that Rosie Lass lead about this chapter, Beren IV mentioned that Sam was indeed wizard-like as well in his restoration of the Shire by using Galadriel’s seed. Sam does these actions because he needs to and he is doing it for others. His singing, his protection of his master and his replanting of the Shire is because of his selfless and generous spirit. I really admire these traits of Sam.
Then we go to a paragraph that does reiterate the fact that Tolkien probably wanted us to see the link between the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings.
They were probably following the very track that Gandalf, Bilbo and the dwawrves had used many years before.
Merry asks Frodo where the trolls’ gold was hidden and what was left of Bilbo’s share and Frodo thinks and answers pensively, that he wished that Bilbo had “brought home no treasure more perilous, nor less easy to part with.” But says aloud that Bilbo gave it all away.
Did Bilbo really give it all away? From Rosie Lass’ ’05 discussion, it was said that in an older edition that Bilbo spent all of it. But Tolkien changed it in his final draft which we currently see. Did Tolkien change it in order to preserve Bilbo’s characteristic of not being greedy? Is it more consistent to his character of not keeping the Arkenstone and trying to resolve peace if he didn’t’ keep any gold from the trolls? However, I know that Bilbo got some of the share from the Lonely Mountain, right? It’s been a while since I reread The Hobbit, so I don’t rightly remember if Bilbo got his 14th slice of the gold from the Quest of Erebor.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
(This post was edited by elentari3018 on Jan 24 2008, 3:07am)
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Jan 24 2008, 4:17am
Post #2 of 27
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Whose strong arms and feet were they made by? The men of Numenor of the past?
I must be overly familiar with the story because it never occurred to me to wonder who made the path -- it was the trolls, of course! I see now what you mean about trolls not building, but this isn't an engineered road. This is just the way the trolls often took through the woods and so they wore a path in the ground and knocked down some trees and boulders that were in their way.
Did Tolkien insert this scene on purpose to have some continuity from the Hobbit? Since LotR is a sequel from the Hobbit and the public and the publishers were asking for a hobbit sequel of sorts from hobbit, do you think it was a conscious decision that made Tolkien have the hobbits meet up with one of characters from the Hobbit?
Again, this is something I wouldn't think to ask. Since both books feature a journey from Hobbiton to Rivendell, it's logical that some of the same landmarks would be passed. But now that I think of it, Tolkien probably did intentionally stop to visit the trolls in the sequel because that was the site of Bilbo's "first successful adventure" as I believe Frodo put it.
I want to ask all of you if there is a story in life that you’ve heard many times, not expecting it to be real, but finally realizing that indeed, it is real? There are many childhood stories that are told many times by parents and older folk that do not seem to be real but then finally you go to a place or meet someone that you never thought would happen. Surprises like these always happen in life so it’s quite common to share of such an instance.
Great question! An example I can think of immediately is from the Little House books. They read like fiction but are based on fact, and I can remember a couple of times, like learning about the Homestead Act in history class or about singing schools in American music history, that I was so shocked to realize that it was something I had already learned from Laura Ingalls Wilder. There are also places and events that I know are real, but I just can't wrap my head around them until I see them in person, like when I saw Mt. St. Helens in '96 and saw how bleak and barren the landscape still was so many years after the eruption.
Where's Frodo?
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sador
Gondolin
Jan 24 2008, 10:48am
Post #3 of 27
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Did Tolkien insert this scene on purpose to have some continuity from the Hobbit? Since LotR is a sequel from the Hobbit and the public and the publishers were asking for a hobbit sequel of sorts from hobbit, do you think it was a conscious decision that made Tolkien have the hobbits meet up with one of characters from the Hobbit?
Of course he did. Finding Frodo was right - the memory of "Bilbo's first successful adventure" is cheering and meaningful for Frodo.
And it is also a surprise for first-time readers. I first read FOTR when I was, say, eight, and was quite disappointed with myself not remembering the lore about trolls (I've read The Hobbit the same year, IIRC).
BTW, I'm sure you've made a mistake when writing Strider goes and hits the troll, not realizing that it has already turned to stone.
There is a transition to some light-heartedness of Sam’s song of when they find the stone trolls from Bilbo’s stories—Did you find this part of the chapter a change from the descriptive nature of the chapter and was quite relieved to find something that was reminiscent of the Hobbit?
Well, the other light-hearted song Sam sings is the oliphaunt song in 'The Black Gate is Closed'. And there, the song helps Frodo collect himself and decide what to do. Comic songs have got this wholesome power in them (if they're not offensive).
Thanks for the link to the Prof.'s singing! Did you notice the words were slightly different? Can anyone shed a light on these changes?
"The Wise may have good reason to believe.... unlikely though it seems to those who know less. But may we not hear the proofs?" - Galdor
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Jan 24 2008, 2:58pm
Post #4 of 27
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"He began to sing to an old tune ..."
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Now the infamous Sam song:
There is a link to Tolkien singing the song here:
Tolkien sings the troll song! (courtesy of finding it in Rosie Lass’ old discussion)
I always liked Tolkien's version (the version by the Tolkien Ensemble is also great). I have wondered whether the tune Tolkien sang the poem to is really "an old tune" from England. Does anybody know, or recognize it? Tolkien refers to "old tunes" elsewhere in his writings, and naturally, he may mean old tunes known in Middle-earth, but not here in the Primary World.
On the other hand, this song is based on "The Root of the Boot" in Songs for the Philologists. Among Tolkien's other contributions to that rare collection are nine ("Bagme Bloma", "Éadig Béo þu", "Frenchmen Froth", "From One to Five", "I Sat upon a Bench", "Ides Ælfscýne", "La Húru", "Natura Apis: Morali Ricardi Eremite", "Ofer Wídne Gársecg") in which he specifies a real tune for the song. "The Root of the Boot" is one of four where he doesn't indicate a tune.
Does this mean he made up the tune in the recording? Or chose a real one, but well after the publication of SftP? Or had one in mind all along, but it was simply omitted from SftP?
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Jan 24 2008, 3:32pm
Post #5 of 27
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It certainly sounds like it could be an old tune, but I don't recognize it. Some folks here turned me on to using the tune of "The Fox Went Out On a Chilly Night" to sing it, and it fits perfectly. Here's a link to hear the song if you don't know it.
Where's Frodo?
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 24 2008, 3:43pm
Post #6 of 27
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Whose strong arms and feet were they made by? The men of Numenor of the past?
The trolls. They’re the top predators in the area so they made no effort to conceal the path to their lair. Indeed, they used the same path over and over again. They no doubt also used the bathroom wherever they wanted as well.
However, Merry and Pippin come back very afraid of the trolls that there are. Strider wants to look at them and brings only a stick… Surely you need more than a stick to battle a troll… Or is he already suspicious that it is a troll that would not be threatening?
One would suspect that Strider, an experienced and well traveled ranger, is already familiar with the area and its landmarks.
Did Tolkien insert this scene on purpose to have some continuity from the Hobbit?
Exactly. The entire journey story up to the Ford is a mirror of Bilbo’s adventure. Or rather, a mirror cracked.
Since LotR is a sequel from the Hobbit and the public and the publishers were asking for a hobbit sequel of sorts from hobbit, do you think it was a conscious decision that made Tolkien have the hobbits meet up with one of characters from the Hobbit?
Arguably they’ve met up with shadows of many characters from The Hobbit: Bombadil-Beorn, Wraiths-Spiders, Bree-Laketown, Strider-Bard, The One Ring-Arkenstone, and so on. The difference is that Frodo just doesn’t have Bilbo’s success. Like the reader, Frodo is expecting to relive Bilbo’s adventures of The Hobbit. But Tolkien is revealing little by little that this is no bright children’s tale. This is deeper waters.
“I had no idea we were anywhere near the place!” said Pippin. He knew the story well. Bilbo and Frodo had told it often; but as a matter of fact he had never more than half believed it. Even now he looked at the stone trolls with suspicion, wondering if some magic might not suddenly bring them to life again.
I want to mention this Pippin surprise for two reasons.
1-- I want to ask all of you if there is a story in life that you’ve heard many times, not expecting it to be real, but finally realizing that indeed, it is real?
The devastation of the forests of the Philippines. It was so beautiful when I passed through in the 1970s, but there’s nothing there no more. Absolutely mind-blowing. Scary.
2--This troll story definitely probably didn’t seem real in Pippin’s eyes. Now, here they are, standing tall in front of him. As we go on reading LotR and as the hobbits go on more adventures, they seem to realize more of their “childhood” fantasies becoming alive.
Well, the trolls are petrified. The old adventures are stone cold. This means something.
Who would’ve thought that Frodo would go to Mordor, a tall tale of evil so far away?
And we expect, like with Bilbo, for Frodo to pull the wool over Bombadil’s eyes and outfox the Wraiths by putting on the ring and taunting them. But it doesn’t turn out that way. They aren’t Beorn and the spiders.
Who would have thought there were trees that can actually talk and walk? (As we see Merry and Pippin eventually meet the Ents.)
Well, Mirkwood seemed alive.
There is a transition to some light-heartedness of Sam’s song of when they find the stone trolls from Bilbo’s stories—Did you find this part of the chapter a change from the descriptive nature of the chapter and was quite relieved to find something that was reminiscent of the Hobbit?
Again, Tolkien is whip-sawing us back and forth between light faerie and dark fantasy. We’ll definitely need a long expository chapter soon to help us get our bearings.
We also see Frodo’s spirits reviving; Bilbo’s adventures are heartening to him and the morning sun definitely helps bring cheer to his heart.
But it will also be depressing as he realizes his own adventure is turning out to be quite different.
Standing up, with his hands behind his back, as if he was at school, he began to sing to an old tune.
Did all hobbit children have to put their hands behind his back to sing or recite lessons at school?
Back in my day all children did. Putting your hands behind your back forces you into good posture, always a bugaboo with the teachers at Jane Long Elementary. And it forces you to keep your eyes up and maintain eye contact with your audience. Plus it does something to the diaphragm so your voice carries better.
However, do working class hobbit children like Sam even have a chance to go to school?
Someone has to keep the postal service in business. I’d imagine they go to school for, say, six years to learn reading and arithmetic. So they can read genealogical charts and cipher out how many times removed cousins are. And no doubt they also learn a little jingoistic history.
Does Sam think it shows more respect to others if he put his hands in back? Or is it just the way to be proper?
Dunno about being respectful or proper, but if I didn’t do it Mrs. MacFadden would rap my knuckles with her ruler. And the worst thing to do would be to put your hands in your pockets during a recitation. Ouch!
Frodo was home-schooled by Bilbo and we learn that Sam was also. I think in older days, schoolchildren did recite with their hands behind their backs. Did Tolkien get this image from when he was in primary school?
No doubt.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 24 2008, 3:50pm
Post #8 of 27
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The song was also covered by The Smothers Brothers in their album "Think Ethnic" (1963) as "The Fox".
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Jan 24 2008, 3:58pm
Post #9 of 27
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Well, my parents had a different album that had the Smothers Brothers version on it. My brother and I loved it when we were kids.
QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK QUACK!
Dick: You never do anything right! You TRY to do things wrong, and it shows in your warped personality.
Tom: God knows I'm sorry.
Dick: Name dropper!
Where's Frodo?
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Cactus Wren
Lindon
Jan 24 2008, 7:41pm
Post #10 of 27
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However, Merry and Pippin come back very afraid of the trolls that there are. Strider wants to look at them and brings only a stick… Surely you need more than a stick to battle a troll… Or is he already suspicious that it is a troll that would not be threatening?
One would suspect that Strider, an experienced and well traveled ranger, is already familiar with the area and its landmarks. Very likely. Certainly he knew that trolls would not be wandering around in broad daylight, so he knew that whatever had alarmed Merry and Pippin, it couldn't be a troll. At the clearing, where the Hobbits "halted suddenly ... holding their breath", Strider "walked forward unconcernedly. 'Get up, old stone!' he said, and broke his stick upon the stooping troll." And a moment later he gently mocks Merry and Pippin:
"You are forgetting not only your family history, but all you ever knew about trolls," said Strider. "It is broad daylight with a bright sun, and yet you come back trying to scare me with a tale of live trolls waiting for us in this glade!" He might already have had the story, from Gandalf or Bilbo or both. And as you point out, he's familiar with the area.
However, do working class hobbit children like Sam even have a chance to go to school?
Someone has to keep the postal service in business. I’d imagine they go to school for, say, six years to learn reading and arithmetic. So they can read genealogical charts and cipher out how many times removed cousins are. And no doubt they also learn a little jingoistic history. I'm not so sure: back in the Prologue, in "Of the Ordering of the Shire", we're told that "By no means all Hobbits were lettered". And when Hamfast said that Bilbo had "learned {Sam} his letters", I got the distinct impression that this was regarded as something out of the ordinary for Hobbits of the Gamgees' class.
(Am I the only person who still wants to scoop up Sean Bean's voice and lick it off a spoon like chocolate sauce?)
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 24 2008, 8:20pm
Post #11 of 27
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Not only out of the ordinary...
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And when Hamfast said that Bilbo had "learned {Sam} his letters", I got the distinct impression that this was regarded as something out of the ordinary for Hobbits of the Gamgees' class.
but I even got the impression that the ordinary hobbits thought learning to read was an odd and even dangerous idea. As the Gaffer says, Bilbo had been "meaning no harm" when he taught Sam to read, "and I hope no harm will come of it." I suppose from the Gaffer's point of view, harm does come of it - it puts all kinds of odd ideas into young Sam's head, so that he starts wanting to see Elves instead of minding the cabbages and potatoes.
The "hands behind back" habit I like to imagine as something Bilbo taught to Sam, because that's what the better-off young hobbits would have learned to do in elementary school. The upper-class hobbits probably lost the habit as they grew up and learned more sophisticated habits for public speaking. But elementary schooling from Bilbo was all Sam ever had, and so he kept his childhood habit all his life.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Jan 24 2008, 9:10pm
Post #12 of 27
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I grew up listening to their music and patter too. One of my favorites is
Dick: "They didn't go around hacking and cursing. These were religious people. Religious people don't curse."
Tom: (long pause) "Betcha some of them did."
And I always have sung the Troll song to the Fox tune. :-)
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Jan 24 2008, 9:15pm
Post #13 of 27
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if his tune might be an alternate traditional "Fox" tune. A lot of ballads have more than one traditional tune. I seem to remember reading somewhere, maybe in the letters, him mentioning the Fox tune, but I may have dreamed it.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Jan 24 2008, 9:26pm
Post #14 of 27
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Story that turned out to be real: Jamie MacPherson's fiddle.
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I remember singing the ballad "MacPherson's Farewell" for years, and finally googling it, and finding that the fiddle that he broke over his knee at the gallows still exists in a museum in Scotland. I e-mailed the proprietor of the museum expressing my surprise that this was a true story, and he wrote back and said "The clock is still 15 minutes fast too." (In the song, the reprieve was coming by sea, and the authorities, knowing this, set the clock ahead 15 minutes so they could hang him before the reprieve arrived.)
"He took the fiddle into both of his hands
And broke it o'er a stone,
Saying 'Nae other hand shall play on thee
When I am dead and gone."
"The reprieve was coming o'er the Brig of Bamf
To let MacPherson free,
But they put the clock a quarter afore
And they hanged him to the tree."
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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(This post was edited by Aunt Dora Baggins on Jan 24 2008, 9:36pm)
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 25 2008, 4:05am
Post #15 of 27
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You're right: there are different versions of The Fox Went Out. I learned the song from a children's album by Roger Whittaker, who had a minor pop hit in the 1970s with "The Last Farewell". (I think the album was The Magical World of Roger Whittaker, on which the African-born, whistling folk singer also performed "The Unicorn", "The Big Rock Candy Mountain" (bowdlerized) and "I'm Being Eaten by a Boa Constrictor".) I never connected that song with Tolkien's troll song before reading The Annotated Hobbit about four years ago. There Douglas Anderson writes:
In 1926 Tolkien wrote a long poem about a troll, intended to be sung to the tune of the traditional English folk song "The Fox Went Out." (The American version of the folk song is rather different, both in terms of story and in tune.)
Anderson prints a different version of the troll song that Tolkien titled "The Root of the Boot". I noticed that the version Tolkien sings has slightly different words than what we have in LotR.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Jan. 21-27 for "Flight to the Ford".
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orcbane
Mithlond
Jan 25 2008, 4:14am
Post #16 of 27
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I like the brief moment of laughter
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that even Frodo can enjoy and take some encouragement from in this Stone-Troll scene. I always note how the various peoples in middle-earth seem to break into songs at the drop of a hat, and that is so different from what I have experienced. I'm usually thinking 'I hate musicals!' and skip the lyrics. No TV at the pubs of M-E of course. When I wasn't able to read the books anymore but had to listen to the CD's that changed instantly. Its a world of difference hearing them sung, or spoken in verse style. Some are quite moving. Bilbo's song in Rivendale in particular to me. My daughter was waiting on the steps of her Community College last spring and said the group actually broke out spontaneously doing the old original Mario Brothers video game theme, for no reason. Strange remnant.
An Ent juggling spikey things ?
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 25 2008, 2:54pm
Post #17 of 27
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...that Tolkien's vision of the ideal agrarian society is built on the foundation of illiteracy.
Indeed, is the illiteracy of the common folk a necessity for the Bagginses, Tooks, and Brandybucks to retain power? Sam's election to mayor would indicate the danger of educating the lower classes.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Jan 25 2008, 3:05pm
Post #18 of 27
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Did you miss my previous post? :)
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Anderson prints a different version of the troll song that Tolkien titled "The Root of the Boot". I noticed that the version Tolkien sings has slightly different words than what we have in LotR.
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Jan 25 2008, 3:44pm
Post #19 of 27
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And another one: the "Cider Sea"
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“I had no idea we were anywhere near the place!” said Pippin. He knew the story well. Bilbo and Frodo had told it often; but as a matter of fact he had never more than half believed it. Even now he looked at the stone trolls with suspicion, wondering if some magic might not suddenly bring them to life again.
I want to mention this Pippin surprise for two reasons.
1-- I want to ask all of you if there is a story in life that you’ve heard many times, not expecting it to be real, but finally realizing that indeed, it is real? There are many childhood stories that are told many times by parents and older folk that do not seem to be real but then finally you go to a place or meet someone that you never thought would happen. Surprises like these always happen in life so it’s quite common to share of such an instance.
This is probably closer to the spirit of your question. When I was a little girl my mother used to sing a lullaby that started out "Two children who lived by the old Cider Sea, little Lena and Hans..." It was a favorite among all of her children, a song she would sing after we'd had a nightmare to chase the bad dreams away with visions of moonlight on the sea. The Cider Sea sounded so magical, definitely a place out of a fairy tale. Then when I was eighteen, our family took a trip to Europe, camping all over Germany and Austria and Switzerland. But my mom insisted on taking a detour hundreds of miles out of our way to go to the Netherlands. Why? She wanted to visit the ZuiderZee, because of that lullabye. D'oh! When I first saw those cold northern waves with my own eyes, it was amazing to know I was standing where those fairy-tale figures of my childhood had stood. Until then I had had no idea it was a real place.
Here's the lullaby:
Two children who lived by the old Zuiderzee,
Little Lena and Hans.
Their fathers were fishermen far out at sea,
Little Lena and Hans.
Each night in their dreams they'd go sailing,
Just like real fishermen do,
And who do you think were the captain and crew?
Little Lena and Hans.
Sailing, sailing, in a wooden shoe.
Bobbing up and down they go,
Just like real ships do.
Sailing, sailing, 'neath a starry beam,
Sailing over a silvery sea,
To the land of dreams.
Some day they will grow to be big people too,
Little Lena and Hans.
And they will get married like big people do,
Little Lena and Hans.
And Lena will always be waiting,
When he is far out at sea,
And when he comes home oh, how happy they'll be,
Little Lena and Hans.
Sailing, sailing, in a wooden shoe.
Bobbing up and down they go,
Just like real ships do.
Sailing, sailing, 'neath a starry beam,
Sailing over a silvery sea,
To the land of dreams.
--Frederic van Norman
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Jan 25 2008, 3:53pm
Post #20 of 27
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Reading the lyrics almost put me to sleep. In a good way, of course!
Where's Frodo?
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 25 2008, 4:04pm
Post #21 of 27
(6892 views)
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"Pero & Podex" ("Boot and Bottom")
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I had read your post, but forgot that you mentioned the title, "The Root of the Boot", so I should have noted the poem's original title --in my subject line here-- from before Songs for the Philologists. (There should be macrons on the "e" in "Pero" and the "o" in "Podex" but they're not coming through when I copy from Word.)
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Jan. 21-27 for "Flight to the Ford".
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Jan 25 2008, 4:28pm
Post #22 of 27
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Leave it to Tolkien to turn the mundane expression "kicking one's ass" into an impressive-sounding Latin phrase. Podex also makes me think of Farmer Giles's sword, Caudimordax.
Ah, Tolkien and his "low philological jests". 
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 25 2008, 9:01pm
Post #23 of 27
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and its drawbacks of course....
The oral culture of the past, of which we have only the occasional snapshot (like Beowulf), must have been a very rich one. And the growth of literacy basically killed it. A lot of Tolkien's philological studies, too, are based on the development of language in the days before literacy was widespread. He must have had a sense of the great richness of oral culture, and the amazing memory and creativity that some people obviously developed because of it. So I suspect he idealized illiteracy as a more innocent and natural way for people to live.
Indeed, is the illiteracy of the common folk a necessity for the Bagginses, Tooks, and Brandybucks to retain power? Sam's election to mayor would indicate the danger of educating the lower classes.
And yes, that does mean that Tooks and Brandybucks, who do learn to read and write, become the leaders. But I think Tolkien would see that as a burden and duty, not as a privilege - knowing too much destroys your innocence and disturbs your peace. (However most Tooks and Brandybucks don't seem to have become too learned - Pippin at least seems to have spent most of his schooldays playing truant!) And in Tolkien's world, true leadership isn't about power anyway, but about service.
I've never been sure about the position of mayor - as an elected position, it seems more likely to be held by a 'commoner' than an aristocrat. I know Frodo takes over as deputy mayor for a while, but that's at a time of emergency and reconstruction. I suspect that in times of peace, the position of mayor would normally be held by the chosen leader of the common people, and he would negotiate and collaborate with the leaders of the powerful families. He'd be like the leader of the House of Commons, while the Tooks and Brandybucks would be in the House of Lords. Still, I think Sam wouldn't even have been of the stature to be the leader of the 'commons' until after he proved himself in the Scouring of the Shire and its reconstruction. And owning Bag End may have helped too!
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Jan 28 2008, 5:55am
Post #24 of 27
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It's so cool to have our childhood stories come alive isn't it?
When I first saw those cold northern waves with my own eyes, it was amazing to know I was standing where those fairy-tale figures of my childhood had stood. Until then I had had no idea it was a real place. It sounds like an amazing experience. :D
Lovely lyrics to the song!
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Jan 28 2008, 7:51pm
Post #25 of 27
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Here's the tune, in case anybody wants it:
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A "2" after a note means it's a half note. A "2." after a note means it's a dotted half note. All other notes are quarter notes. Upper case (capital)letters are from A below middle C to G above middle C. Lower case (small) letters are an octave above that. & signifies a rest.
G G E G G E G a F a G2.
E2 E D C D E2. &2
G G E G G E G a F a G2.
E2 E D C D C2. &2
C C E G c b a c2. G2.
C D E E D C D2. &2
G G E G G E G a F a G2.
E2 E D C D C2. &2
c2. C2. c2. C2. c2 a F2 a G2. &2.
G2 F E2 D D2 A A2.
G2 F E2 D C2. &2.
c2. C2. c2. C2. a2 a G2 F E2. &2.
D2 E F E D C2 c C2.
C2 D C2 G F2. &2
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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