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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Jan 23 2008, 2:58am
Post #1 of 24
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***FLIGHT TO THE FORD*** Discussion 3/? “We cannot go any further. I am afraid this has been too much for Frodo. I am dreadfully anxious about him." -Merry
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Sorry for the delay everyone... but I will try to update nightly at around 10-11 pm EST so please look out for me then. (hope that's ok!)
.....
In the next section, we find that Strider tells that they have gone “too far north”. There are several reasons why they must have done this. One: to flee in directions that are unfamiliar to the Ring-wraiths, in order to avoid pursuit, and also two: to avoid climbing for Frodo’s sake. According to the map, it is apparent that it would be a longer road that they go up north. According to Strider, the only way to get to over the Ford is to go on the main road. How far do you think is the main road from where they are now?
At this point, the hobbits and Strider spent the day “scrambling over rocky ground” but ultimately having to climb.
Here we see Frodo’s vision be affected by the Morgul wound after that tiring climb up the cliff. “Frodo threw himself down, and lay on the ground shivering. His left arm was lifeless, and his side and shoulder felt as if icy claws were laid upon them. The Trees and rocks about him seemed shadowy and dim.”
We learn that the Morgul wound eventually effects Frodo’s vision, paralyzing not only his shoulder but his side and arm as well.
From what can be deduced from this chapter, the symptoms of the wound are pain, paralyzing coldness, blurry sight, weakness, and ultimately changing you into a wraith through fading. Would you actually fade from site and become shapeless, colorless? Can anyone pinpoint any more symptoms?
In Rivendell, Gandalf explains to Frodo that the shard was trying to get into his heart, piercing him and turning him into a wraith. All these symptoms seem to be indicating that the shard’s evil is at work, trying to dig itself deeper, therefore affecting sight and how things seem and feel.
Then there is dialog about concern for Frodo from Merry and Sam. Sam seems to want to be in denial that there is anything wrong with his master though.
“What is the matter with my master?” asked Sam in a low voice, looking appealingly at Strider. “His wound was small, and it is already closed. There’s nothing to be seen but a cold white mark on his shoulder.”
Do you think that it was somewhat naïve for Sam to think that there is nothing wrong with his master? Even though the wound has been closed, it is interesting to note that there is still evil at work, as Strider explains. Sam looked appealingly at Strider. Do you think Sam still holds Strider accountable for what happened at Weathertop?
Sam always seems to be the optimistic hobbit and he wants everything to go on smoothly and probably to avoid noticing bad events because of the current situation that there is. Probably with Frodo collapsing like he did after the climb, Sam then realizes the severity of his wound. Sam is not “naïve” but I think he just wants to think the best of this situation. In some ways, perhaps it was wishful thinking on Sam’s part to think that there is nothing wrong but seeing Frodo as he was at that instance, he comes to realize the wound really is not a regular wound.
Later that night, Frodo is “half in a dream, imagining that endless dark wings were sweeping by above him, and that one the wings rode pursuers that sought him in all the hollows of the hills.”
This is the second time it is described that Frodo is dreaming his dark nightmares. The first time, it was when it was nighttime, rainy and cold… This time it is also nighttime and cold. There is similarity to note when his dreams come because as we see later in the chapter, daylight revives him a bit and hope returns when it is light.
When morning dawned, Strider takes Merry with him to survey the country from the height. Do you think that this is a bit dangerous? The Riders might see them. Also, Strider takes *Merry* with him and not Pippin nor Sam. Does Strider probably feel like Merry would know what to look for more?
As we learn in Rivendell, Merry always had a head for maps and he actually asked the first geographic question to Strider earlier in the chapter about the river from there yonder.
However, does anyone also think that the hobbits have set roles already? Sam, being the one who takes care of Frodo, Pippin for being the cheery one to tell stories, perhaps, and entertain them?
There Strider decides to take the road again since it is the best way to the Ford.
They climbed slowly down the southern side of the ridge; but the way was much easier than they had expected, for the slope was far less steep on this side, and before long Frodo was able to ride again.
Frodo rides again eventually… but in his weakened state, how do you imagine him to walk? Probably it is with the aid of his Sam, Merry or Pippin. In the movie, PJ and crew really weakened him too much and I always appreciate the fact that Frodo was not *that* weak throughout the fourteen days it took to get to Rivendell from Weathertop.
“Even Frodo felt better in the morning light, but every now and again, a mist seemed to obscure his sight, and he passed his hands over his eyes.”
Here is another symptom of Frodo turning into a wraith. The Morgul wound is now affecting his site, and Frodo could see things less clearly than before. This part reminds me of how he couldn’t see that well in his dream when he was walking in his garden in the Shire and that the black shadows were becoming clearer instead. It is interesting to note the different stages of the chapter where Tolkien would insert a symptom or how Frodo’s pain is affecting him.
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The next discussions will be about the upcoming troll scene and some fun geography!
Stay tuned! And thanks for being patient with the updates!
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
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a.s.
Doriath
Jan 23 2008, 12:31pm
Post #2 of 24
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the symptoms of the wound are pain, paralyzing coldness, blurry sight, weakness, and ultimately changing you into a wraith through fading. Would you actually fade from site and become shapeless, colorless?
I'm really unsure about the physicality of this whole "wraith" business, as I referred to below in the footprints comments. I just can't make it work (which is not the same as saying "it doesn't work", I just can't seem to make it work in my mind). In fact, I just gloss over this "wraith" business and assume it some magic process. I do think the "bodies" of the "wraiths" are invisible to mortal eyes, but how this happens I just don't know. How come Gollum isn't a wraith?
I mean, Gandalf says a mortal who possesses the Ring and uses it to make himself invisible will fade permanently. Did Gollum not use the Ring to be invisible very often?
Is the wound from the knife just an acceleration of the process that occurs if you wear the Ring too often (you become permanently invisible) or is it a separate thing?
Not asking for specific answers, just some thoughts that run through my head when reading about "wraiths" and the "wraith-becoming process".
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"And we must all bring Provisions."
"Bring what ?"
"Things to eat."
"Oh!" said Pooh happily. "I thought you said Provisions.
I'll go and tell them." And he stumped off.
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orcbane
Mithlond
Jan 23 2008, 1:29pm
Post #3 of 24
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This section always makes me wince. I feel sorry for Frodo going on day after day weakening. His constitution is losing the fight against some infection. It is not natural though, since the wound has healed well seemingly.
For some reason, it is harder for me to suspend my logic, and accept the magical elements here. I have trouble imagining the tip of the sword being guided by some force and at the same time converting Frodo to a Wraith. Though upon reflection it would seem the metal of the sword could have power imbedded in it like the Rings of Power do.
An Ent juggling spikey things ?
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Jan 23 2008, 4:18pm
Post #4 of 24
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Frodo's left arm is numb and lifeless, his vision is blurry, and he's cold. It sounds like he's having a heart attack or stroke or both, from those symptoms. I'm not making that connection, of course -- it's just a comment on how terrible he feels and how remarkable that he's able to walk or talk in his condition. I agree, elentari, that the movie had him too far gone, but I think it had to do with the accelerated pace of everything. Book Frodo bore the knife-shard for 17 days or whatever it was, but Movie Frodo seemed like he went only a couple of days at most.
Sam has been worried about Frodo but didn't want to sound like a worrywart, so he hasn't said anything, but now it's obvious that there is something terribly wrong. He looks appealingly at Strider to fix the problem. I don't think he holds Strider accountable for the wound or the situation they're in -- I think Sam has started to trust Strider and wants to believe that he can heal Frodo.
Frodo's dream foretells the Nazgul riding on their winged steeds. I wonder if he remembers this dream later when he sees the Fell Beasts?
Where's Frodo?
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Jan 23 2008, 4:35pm
Post #5 of 24
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From "The Shadow of the Past", after Frodo objected to Gandalf connected Gollum to hobbits and Bilbo:
"Only too true, I fear," said Gandalf. "But there is something else in it, I think, which you don't see yet. Even Gollum was not wholly ruined. He had proved tougher than even one of the Wise would have guessed -- as a hobbit might.....Alas! there is little hope of (cure) for him. Yet not no hope. No, not though he possessed the Ring so long, almost as far back as he can remember. For it was long since he had worn it much: in the black darkness it was seldom needed. Certainly he had never "faded". He is thin and tough still."
So, presumably, if Gollum had used the Ring to become invisible often, he would have faded, because Gandalf says earlier in the chapter that that's what happens to mortals. From "Riddles in the Dark":
"Gollum used to wear it at first, till it tired him; and then he kept it in a pouch next to his skin, till it galled him; and now he usually hid it in a hole in the rock on his island, and he was always going back to look at it." Of course, the first version is simply, "Sometimes he had it in his pocket; usually he kept it in a little hole in the rock on his island".
You said you didn't want a specific answer, but sometimes I just can't help sticking my hand in the air and going,"Oooh! Oooh! Oooh! I know this one!" If it makes you feel any better, I don't know how the wound interacts with the Ring either, but I like squire's answer.
Where's Frodo?
(This post was edited by Finding Frodo on Jan 23 2008, 4:37pm)
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sador
Gondolin
Jan 23 2008, 10:34pm
Post #6 of 24
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Also, Strider takes *Merry* with him and not Pippin nor Sam. Does Strider probably feel like Merry would know what to look for more?
Strider probably knows by now enough of the hobbits to know Merry is the most reliable. And if he doesn't, in their short acquaintance he had Merry: - Tracking Riders instead of making a fool of himself in the inn.
- Being the one hobbit to ask the logical question (will they attack the inn tonight?).
- Taking advantage of teh delay to eat and seek provisions (no, Squire, he wasn't a jerk).
- Being recognized by Butterbur as the owner of the ponies, and effectively the leader of the group (or at least, the spirit of the "very efficient conspiracy" in Frodo's words).
- Taking responsibility for the short cut in the Old Forest.
- Asking geography-orientated questions on the way to Weathertop.
- Being the one to first notice the Riders on the dell (while Sam "didn't stay to look").
- As you've pointed out yourself, worrying about Frodo, instead of denying his symptoms (as you described Sam).
I think on Weathertop itself, with Strider and Frodo, Merry proved his usefulness again, but I can't remember clearly, and I'm not going to dig the book now (00:40 local time, with my wife and kids asleep) to make sure. Sorry for that.
So it seems his decision was pretty logical, wasn't it?
"The Wise may have good reason to believe.... unlikely though it seems to those who know less. But may we not hear the proofs?" - Galdor
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a.s.
Doriath
Jan 23 2008, 11:56pm
Post #7 of 24
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I swear, my mind is...well, never mind.
For it was long since he had worn it much: in the black darkness it was seldom needed. Certainly he had never "faded".
Thanks for reminding me that Gandalf said Gollum hadn't used the ring much to make himself invisible. I hate to point out that I, in fact, had chapter 2 in our last discussion.
THAT'S a scary thought.
a.s. (who really needs to find a smiley hitting self upside head for these kinds of things!)
"an seileachan"
"And we must all bring Provisions."
"Bring what ?"
"Things to eat."
"Oh!" said Pooh happily. "I thought you said Provisions.
I'll go and tell them." And he stumped off.
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SilentLion
Ossiriand
Jan 24 2008, 2:05am
Post #8 of 24
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I have to think that the bad guys just can't go around turning mortals into wraiths whenever they feel like it
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Wouldn't that violate the Gift of Men (i.e., their spirits get to leave the world after death)?
I have to think that in order to become a wraith, the mortal has to put themelves in a position where they are vulnerable to that magic. In the case of the Nazgul, they've done that by their own choice. In the Barrow Wight's mound, Frodo resisted the urge to put on the Ring, a situation that Gandalf says later on was perhaps the riskiest of the whole journey to Rivendell. However, at Weathertop, Frodo made himself vulnerable to the Morgul blade by putting on the Ring.
The Army of the Dead is another instance where mortal spirits are trapped and unable to leave the world, but they've also put themselves in that situation by leaving an oath unfulfilled.
I have to think that the average mortal warrior who fights and dies on the battlefield, is not subject to this 'fate worse than death' simply because his opponent happens to use a particularly nasty weapon. The person on the receiving end of the Morgul wound has to do something to make themselves vulnerable to such a fate.
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Jan 24 2008, 3:46am
Post #9 of 24
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I wouldn't have been able to answer it...
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...if I hadn't just read it the day before yesterday!
Where's Frodo?
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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Jan 24 2008, 3:55am
Post #10 of 24
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I think Merry is always underapreciated, either be book or movie.
He should be credited in being the most practical hobbit, one who does the little things so that things run smoothly! You're right that he had the right (or maybe too daring/foolish) mind to go out and scope out Bree. He alerted the others to danger and probably that is a reason why Strider told the hobbits now to return to their own hobbit holes that night.
Asking geography-orientated questions on the way to Weathertop. Being the one to first notice the Riders on the dell
That is why i love him so much-- he does the little things that are important, but are quite often, overlooked. That is why i feel so sorry for him that his friends are out to battle or in MOrdor while he stays in Gondor nursing his wound... It's always interesting to get fanfic relating to that time period on what authors think on how he dealt.
Merry is a hobbit to be appreciated and loved for the little things he does that do make a difference. He's useful in all the ways that you wouldn't first think of.
All the love for him in helping Eowyn slay the Witch-king!
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
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orcbane
Mithlond
Jan 24 2008, 4:57am
Post #11 of 24
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You make a interesting point, which hadn't occurred to me about the gift of men & wraiths. Are there any other wraiths mentioned in any of the books ? I can not remember any at the moment.
An Ent juggling spikey things ?
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orcbane
Mithlond
Jan 24 2008, 5:16am
Post #12 of 24
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The film Merry came close to this ideal at first
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in the Shire and Buckleberry ferry scenes. He seemed very sure of himself, and decisive. It returns for moments, as at when he creates a diversion for Frodo to escape & at the Entmoot. But otherwise the characterization seemed changed to me. More towards being one of the goofy hobbit twins, whether by design or just how it worked out. I love that one scene (book not movie) where Merry is cowering/crawling on the ground mocking himself saying 'King's man' unable yet to master his fear.
An Ent juggling spikey things ?
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sador
Gondolin
Jan 24 2008, 6:44am
Post #13 of 24
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And in the seperation from Pippin, and in the scene "Merry's simple courage"
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Although the last one was only the the EE.
However, hobbits are quite goofy (and we get hints even Frodo was once), so I don't think the character of Merry changed that much; it's just that in books, you can lean back and think about what you've rad more easily than in movies, so you notice more.
As someone who's read TTT and ROTK before FOTR (that was what they had in the library, and after seeing Bakshi's film I had a vague idea what was going on till that stage) - I can testify it takes more than one reading to recognize his quality, even in the books.
"The Wise may have good reason to believe.... unlikely though it seems to those who know less. But may we not hear the proofs?" - Galdor
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SilentLion
Ossiriand
Jan 25 2008, 5:40am
Post #14 of 24
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References to wraiths or ghosts in the Silmarillion
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Sauron is said to be a master of undead spirits. Before Beren went to Doriath, one of his companions who was tricked into betryaing them to Sauron appears to Beren as a ghost to warn him (it's not said whether he departed after that or was permanently a wraith). \
I think it's also said that spirits off the dead who did not answer the lawful summons of Mandos, became vulnerable to the countersummons of Angband.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 25 2008, 5:38pm
Post #15 of 24
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Here we see Frodo’s vision be affected by the Morgul wound after that tiring climb up the cliff. “Frodo threw himself down, and lay on the ground shivering. His left arm was lifeless, and his side and shoulder felt as if icy claws were laid upon them. The Trees and rocks about him seemed shadowy and dim.”
We learn that the Morgul wound eventually effects Frodo’s vision, paralyzing not only his shoulder but his side and arm as well.
From what can be deduced from this chapter, the symptoms of the wound are pain, paralyzing coldness, blurry sight, weakness, and ultimately changing you into a wraith through fading. Would you actually fade from site and become shapeless, colorless? Can anyone pinpoint any more symptoms?
If you throw in acute sensitivity to light then you have the classic symptoms of a concussion.
In Rivendell, Gandalf explains to Frodo that the shard was trying to get into his heart, piercing him and turning him into a wraith. All these symptoms seem to be indicating that the shard’s evil is at work, trying to dig itself deeper, therefore affecting sight and how things seem and feel.
Again, the shard seems sentient.
Then there is dialog about concern for Frodo from Merry and Sam. Sam seems to want to be in denial that there is anything wrong with his master though.
“What is the matter with my master?” asked Sam in a low voice, looking appealingly at Strider. “His wound was small, and it is already closed. There’s nothing to be seen but a cold white mark on his shoulder.”
Do you think that it was somewhat naïve for Sam to think that there is nothing wrong with his master?
Well, a large part of holistic medicine is maintaining not only a positive attitude in the patient, but also in the people around him. One might expect that this no-nonsense attitude is typical of standard medical treatment in the Shire. And chicken soup. (Hey! Couldn't hurt!!)
Even though the wound has been closed, it is interesting to note that there is still evil at work, as Strider explains.
Yeah. Closed wounds can go septic and get really bad. It’s usually best to keep a wound open so air can get to it. I know I still got some wounds on my legs that have to be kept open and drained regularly.
Sam looked appealingly at Strider. Do you think Sam still holds Strider accountable for what happened at Weathertop?
Just the opposite. He seems to have the belief that Strider is Frodo’s only hope. Sam is appealing for assurances from Strider that everything will be all right.
Sam always seems to be the optimistic hobbit and he wants everything to go on smoothly and probably to avoid noticing bad events because of the current situation that there is.
Or he just always tries to put the best face on things. “The Power of Positive Thinking”.
When morning dawned, Strider takes Merry with him to survey the country from the height. Do you think that this is a bit dangerous? The Riders might see them. Also, Strider takes *Merry* with him and not Pippin nor Sam. Does Strider probably feel like Merry would know what to look for more?
That’s not it. With Frodo incapacitated Merry is obviously the Hobbit In Chief. They’re off away from the others discussing what to do next. I’d like to be a fly on the wall, or rather tree, to hear what Strider and Merry discuss as far as their options go.
However, does anyone also think that the hobbits have set roles already? Sam, being the one who takes care of Frodo, Pippin for being the cheery one to tell stories, perhaps, and entertain them?
As we’ll find out in the Scouring, Merry has the greatest talent for leadership. That Strider sees that this early shows how much a leader of men (and hobbits) Strider is.
They climbed slowly down the southern side of the ridge; but the way was much easier than they had expected, for the slope was far less steep on this side, and before long Frodo was able to ride again.
Frodo rides again eventually… but in his weakened state, how do you imagine him to walk? Probably it is with the aid of his Sam, Merry or Pippin.
In any case I’d wager they wouldn’t let him lag behind lest he be picked off. They’d all slow up and keep him in the middle of the group. Again, the Wraiths did exactly what they intended to do: Slow Strider and the hobbits down to a crawl so they could follow them easily.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Jan 25 2008, 6:34pm
Post #16 of 24
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"However, does anyone also think that the hobbits have set roles already? Sam, being the one who takes care of Frodo, Pippin for being the cheery one to tell stories, perhaps, and entertain them?"
Well, perhaps. It's clear from the fourth chapter that Sam & Frodo will have a very close and strong bond and this idea is repeated in several chapters of the early parts of the story. But it's not until Book II that the nature of Sam's service and devotion to Frodo is made more clear and deepened. Sam & Frodo have more archetypical traits than Pippin & Merry, with aspects of the servant and the saint/martyr showing already. Tolkien's musings on the religious meaning of willingly serving as God's instrument have major implications for the development of Sam & Frodo as characters, or so I see it.
Although we do see the differences in personality and talents between Merry & Pippin, these characters have hardly come into their own, because they haven't been really tested yet. Merry does in fact seem similar to Frodo in several ways, except that he is more practically minded and is not at the time as firmly bound to his duty & sense of mission as Frodo. This is very superficially said, of course, but I haven't got time to elaborate right now.
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Jan 25 2008, 11:43pm
Post #17 of 24
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Here we see Frodo’s vision be affected by the Morgul wound after that tiring climb up the cliff. “Frodo threw himself down, and lay on the ground shivering. His left arm was lifeless, and his side and shoulder felt as if icy claws were laid upon them. The Trees and rocks about him seemed shadowy and dim.”
We learn that the Morgul wound eventually effects Frodo’s vision, paralyzing not only his shoulder but his side and arm as well.
From what can be deduced from this chapter, the symptoms of the wound are pain, paralyzing coldness, blurry sight, weakness, and ultimately changing you into a wraith through fading. Would you actually fade from sight and become shapeless, colorless?
As Frodo is affected by the wound and gradually drawn into the shadow world, he will start to perceive the world of light more like the Nazgûl do. In the end he would eventually fade from sight. This state of being is of course deeply unnatural and the process of getting into it consequently very painful and disturbing.
I don't think the Ring interacts with the shard or the wound here because 1) Frodo is not using the Ring or putting it on his finger and has no reason to want to use it either, and 2) The Ring works mainly by appealing to its wearer's desire for power. Of course I might ask why the Ring is not trying actively to break down Frodo's will to resist the wound, which is not easy to answer. At this point it still seems like Frodo's mind is largely his own, where the Ring mostly cannot get at him if there's not a concrete external situation or temptation to work on.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 27 2008, 10:04pm
Post #18 of 24
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Would you actually fade from site and become shapeless, colorless? Can anyone pinpoint any more symptoms?
It seems to be implied that you would fade and become like the Ringwraiths themselves. But no-one seems to notice this happening to Frodo. They are fading from him though - I think that's what makes Frodo feel as if he's looking at them through a mist or shadow, not so much blurry sight as reality itself fading away from him. One other symptom that makes Frodo miserable is disturbed sleep and unpleasant dreams.
I can't help noticing that all Frodo's symptoms are quite explainable as normal symptoms of a normal wound - the 'magic' is quite ambiguous. If Frodo was fading from view, that would be an unnatural and definitely 'magical' symptom. But this is one symptom he doesn't have.
Do you think that it was somewhat naïve for Sam to think that there is nothing wrong with his master? Even though the wound has been closed, it is interesting to note that there is still evil at work, as Strider explains. Sam looked appealingly at Strider. Do you think Sam still holds Strider accountable for what happened at Weathertop?
I think Sam does know that something is wrong. That's why he's asking for more information, from the one person he thinks might know the answer. Sam was obviously hoping that the wound would heal quickly, but he's now realizing that even though the wound has closed there's something still not right. It could be an infection, or it could be some "evil at work". More ambiguity!
Sam probably does think that Strider blew it on Weathertop, and probably isn't completely sure he should trust him even now (actually Frodo and Gandalf discuss this in the next chapter). But there's no one else to turn to for information, and so he appeals to Strider.
When morning dawned, Strider takes Merry with him to survey the country from the height. Do you think that this is a bit dangerous? The Riders might see them. Also, Strider takes *Merry* with him and not Pippin nor Sam. Does Strider probably feel like Merry would know what to look for more?
I've never really understood what the Riders are doing at this point. Are they following them from a distance? Strider seems to be mostly worried about places where they may be ambushed, so perhaps going up onto the height isn't such a risk. I think Strider singles out different hobbits at different times for various jobs. But as others have said, Merry seems the most likely to make something of the geography.
However, does anyone also think that the hobbits have set roles already? Sam, being the one who takes care of Frodo, Pippin for being the cheery one to tell stories, perhaps, and entertain them?
Sam takes care of Frodo and tells the stories. Pippin is the ignorant one - he doesn't know the tale that Sam tells of Gil-galad (although it seems Merry is unfamiliar with the name too). In fact Gandalf accuses Pippin later of spending his schooldays playing truant, which would explain the ignorance! Merry is sensible, knowledgeable and well-organized, but I think he's more comfortable reading about places and looking at maps rather than actually being out in the wild himself!
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 26 2008, 3:03am
Post #19 of 24
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It takes them two days to return to the road
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According to Strider, the only way to get to over the Ford is to go on the main road. How far do you think is the main road from where they are now?
…so I’ll guess they are 30 miles to the north.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 26 2008, 3:06am
Post #20 of 24
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That was squire's insight last time through.
See particularly this post and this one.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 26 2008, 3:07am
Post #21 of 24
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“It was something colder. I think it was–”
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From “The Great River”:
Then he paused and fell silent.
‘What do you think?’ asked Boromir eagerly, leaning from his boat, as if he was trying to catch a glimpse of Frodo's face.
‘I think – No, I will not say,’ answered Frodo.
Nice thought, FF.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 26 2008, 3:08am
Post #22 of 24
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“Are they following them from a distance?”
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No, the Riders lost the trail. Had the Riders been following the hobbits, they wouldn’t have posted three of their number to guard the bridge over the Mitheithel (and be scared off by Glorfindel) and had two more riding the road to the west. The Ring draws the Riders, but only over a very short distance, and unreliably.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Mar 26 2008, 3:09am
Post #23 of 24
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“a wraith of vanished loveliness in the trees”
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Besides Gorlim, whom you remembered, I found the term "wraith" used, sometimes metaphorically, in the “Silmarillion” texts for Morwen, Niënor, Beleg, Lúthien, Finduilas, and Gorlim’s wife. It also appears in the “Atrabeth” (HoMe X), used by Andreth to describe the vision of departing spirits seen at death. And it is sometimes used in descriptions of the Númenórean concept of the afterlife. And for the fading elves at the end of The Book of Lost Tales -- thus my subject line.
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin
Mar 28 2008, 4:02am
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I had completely forgotten this earlier discussion.
Where's Frodo?
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I agree about Merry!
[