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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Jan 21 2008, 5:59am
Post #1 of 28
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***FLIGHT TO THE FORD***Discussion 1/? “What has happened? Where is the pale king?” Frodo asked wildly.
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 Noro lim, Asfaloth!
Welcome to this week’s discussion of Flight to the Ford. This is one of my most favorite chapters in The Fellowship of the Ring and Lord of the Rings overall so hopefully I can provide interesting questions and discussion topics for everyone. I'm glad to be here and this is my first time leading a discussion on here so hopefully i will do an all right job.
This chapter was an excellent chapter to close Book 1 since we have been presented with quite a chase for our heroes and it finally went to a climatic end when Frodo faced the Ring-wraiths at the Ford of Bruinen. The tension is incredible as Frodo is wounded from the Morgul wound and is fading into the Wraith world. But there is much to discuss before the climatic scene so let’s start from the beginning.
We were left with quite a cliffhanger from Knife in the Dark. Most people probably flipped to the next chapter immediately to see how Frodo is and I, for one, was glad to see Frodo all right (well, living still at least….but remember, FRODO LIVES! ;)
In the beginning first page, we see that Frodo comes around from being unconscious and hears from Sam what had happened in his point of view. Sam doubts Strider’s intentions, and Strider telling Sam what the Morgul wound might be. Sam plainly was beginning to have doubts again about Strider; but while they were talking he returned, appearing suddenly out of the shadows. They started, and Sam drew his sword and stood over Frodo; but Strider knelt down swiftly at his side.
If you were the hobbits, would you continue to trust Strider? Where was Strider when they were being attacked; where did he come from?
As was said from squire’s previous discussion, the point was raised about Strider seeing that the Ring-wraiths were coming so perhaps they should’ve spent a bit more time preparing for a possible attack?
“I fear, Sam, that they believe your master has a deadly wound that will subdue him to their will. We shall see!” It seems that Strider is guessing shrewdly upon what the Black Riders seek to do. Do you think it was smart of the Black Riders to retreat so quickly? Were they really expecting Frodo to weaken and become a wraith that quickly? Was it foolishness that the Black Riders relied on this strategy? “Don’t despair!” said Strider. “You must trust me now. Your Frodo is made of sterner stuff than I had guessed, though Gandalf hinted that it might prove so. He is not slain, and I think he will resist the evil power of the wound longer than his enemies expect. I will do all I can to help and heal him. Guard him well, while I am away!” Gandalf had hinted that Frodo is stronger than expected? When did Strider and Gandalf have a discussion about Frodo?
Did Aragorn and Gandalf have time during their Quest to find Gollum? Perhaps Gandalf had mentioned to Aragorn that there would be a hobbit in possession of the Ring. As was mentioned in the Council of Elrond, “Gandalf opened his heart to Aragorn”, so probably they talked about Frodo as the Ring-bearer as well.
“resist the evil power of the wound longer than his enemies expect” I like the fact that Strider is gradually realizing Frodo’s strength. :)
Does Strider know about the Morgul wound? Has it been indicated in HoME or anywhere that he would know about such a wound?
Google information about the Morgul wound: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgul-blade
Frodo’s pain from the wound is quite evident as it spreads to his arm and side. Reading about the knife that inflicted this wound is interesting for the blade melted and “vanished like a smoke in the air, leaving only the hilt in Strider’s hand.”
By this indication of what this evil knife can do, it can obviously be deduced that indeed the knife is quite evil. There are also inscriptions upon it that Strider cannot read. Did anyone have any thoughts about the evilness of this knife and if it was poisoned from the beginning?
Athelas—wonder plant, also known as Kingsfoil.
We see this come back later in Minas Tirith …What does athelas actually do other than refresh your minds and have your minds “calmed and cleared”.
Does it actually battle with the Black Breath (as can be seen in The Houses of Healing)? Does it slow the poison of the Morgul wound? Is it mentioned anywhere in HoME or in Hammond and Scull, of its origins or more information about this important healing herb?
Frodo cannot walk so the baggage is split up among the hobbits and Strider and he is put on Bill. Frodo is definitely very dejected by this aspect and feels guilt about his foolishness on putting the Ring on. “…for he now perceived that in putting on the Ring he obeyed not his own desire but the commanding wish of his enemies.”
To what extent this is not his fault? Who *could* resist the power of the Ring-wraiths at Weathertop?
He had tried to resist but the power of the Ring-wraiths was too strong at that point. It was beyond Frodo’s control at that point and it wasn’t his fault for “obeying the wishes of his enemies”. He did resist till the end and even struck at the foot of the Witch-king, called out the name of Elbereth, so it wasn’t as if he didn’t’ try to resist and fight back.
He did resist till the end so I do not think that he should be feeling fault in something he truly could not prevent for at that time, the Black Riders were at their strongest since they had isolated the hobbits in a secluded area and at that time, it is said that they are the strongest.
….
More to come tomorrow night at about 9 pm EST! Let the fun begin with Flight to the Ford discussion! =)
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
(This post was edited by elentari3018 on Jan 21 2008, 6:08am)
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lohanmonkey
Registered User
Jan 21 2008, 6:10am
Post #2 of 28
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HA!!! first to comment!!! very interesting topic. it drives me to endless boundaries to do research on this....not that i would buy more books...but hey, you'll never know. in time, i'll post up more with some insights on this topic....as for anyone else, post your hearts out. 
(This post was edited by Altaira on Jan 21 2008, 12:18pm)
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sador
Gondolin
Jan 21 2008, 1:12pm
Post #3 of 28
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Three comments, and some answers
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To begin with, good luck! It's interesting being lead by a first-timer. Over the last couple of weeks, I've noticed how much personal style goes into leading, so I'm looking forward to knowing you better!
Secondly, did you create those pictures? They are very nice. Are there many more where those came from?
And last, as usual I don't know what kind of week I'll have, so I might participate actively, merely lurk, or catch up sometime later. But I'll try with some answers on this one:
If you were the hobbits, would you continue to trust Strider?
Well; they didn't have any choice now, did they? And Strider did prove himself, by getting them that far, and by that night in Bree. Even if we accept the theory that was an inside job, I don't think the hobbits suspected him to be a part of it - in which case he's simply saved them.
Where was Strider when they were being attacked; where did he come from?
Strider was there, and he explains himself where he was.
As was said from squire’s previous discussion, the point was raised about Strider seeing that the Ring-wraiths were coming so perhaps they should’ve spent a bit more time preparing for a possible attack?
To repeat myself from last week, I think the strengthening of Frodo's will by the tale of Luthien was the best possible preparation.
Do you think it was smart of the Black Riders to retreat so quickly?
"More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth" (and in the movies, the fire).
Were they really expecting Frodo to weaken and become a wraith that quickly?
A fortnight is pretty long, and if not for Glorfindel they would have succeeded. Curious wrote last week, that passage into Rivendell is a grace, not given to anyone (which might explain Boromir's long wanderings, and finally reaching Rivendell in the morning of the Council); the Wraiths could expect Frodo to tarry much longer on the Road.
Gandalf had hinted that Frodo is stronger than expected?
Compare to Aragorn's words in 'The Bridge of Khazad-dum', when he finds Frodo is still alive.
When did Strider and Gandalf have a discussion about Frodo?
On the first of May (see 'Strider').
Has it been indicated in HoME or anywhere that he would know about such a wound?
Is this a leading question, a-la Squire, or do you simply not know, and are asking for information? Anyway, not having read HoME, I don't know myself.
Does it actually battle with the Black Breath (as can be seen in The Houses of Healing)? Does it slow the poison of the Morgul wound? Is it mentioned anywhere in HoME or in Hammond and Scull, of its origins or more information about this important healing herb?
IIRC, I've read someone (probably Michael Martinez) who discussed the nature of medicine in Tolkien, and said it is mostly strengthening the spirit. So having your mind "cleared and calmed" is actually a lot.
To what extent this is not his fault? Who *could* resist the power of the Ring-wraiths at Weathertop?
Well, the question of Frodo's ability to resist evil is pretty wide, and we've touched it over the last two weeks. But I wonder about the invocation of Elbereth, which I guess was instrumental in making the Witch-king with draw, and in Frodo's ability to take off the Ring. Had he done so before, perhaps he could have resisted?
BTW, that is another answer to your first questions. I don't think the Nazgul expected Frodo to be able to take off the Ring, in which case they might have thought a temporary withdrawal was advisable. Also, someone suggested somewhere Frodo as a Wraith might be better than Frodo dead - at least as far as transport is considered (though I'm not sure of it).
Hope you'll have a great week, and we'll all benefit from your insights!
"The Wise may have good reason to believe.... unlikely though it seems to those who know less. But may we not hear the proofs?" - Galdor
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Cactus Wren
Lindon
Jan 21 2008, 3:32pm
Post #4 of 28
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Has it been indicated in HoME or anywhere that he would know about such a wound?
Is this a leading question, a-la Squire, or do you simply not know, and are asking for information? Anyway, not having read HoME, I don't know myself. Nor have I, but when I read the question in the OP, my mind flashed back to the inn at Bree, two chapters ago: "... They will come on you in the wild, in some dark place where there is no help. Do you wish them to find you? They are terrible!"
The hobbits looked at him, and saw with surprise that his face was drawn as if with pain, and his hands clenched the arms of his chair. The room was very quiet and still, and the light seemed to have grown dim. For a while he sat with unseeing eyes as if walking in distant memory or listening to sounds in the Night far away.
And a notion came, utterly unsupported indeed: has Aragorn at some point lost a friend to a Morgul-blade? Or, perhaps worse, has he had to save a friend from a very literal fate worse than death?
(Am I the only person who still wants to scoop up Sean Bean's voice and lick it off a spoon like chocolate sauce?)
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 21 2008, 9:31pm
Post #5 of 28
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Athelas had its origins back in the Legendarium. In a note from "Return of the Shadow", p. 197, Christopher T. writes:
"In the Lay of Leithian my father wrote athelas against the passage where Huan came and bore a leaf,
of all the herbs of healing chief,
that evergreen in woodland glade
there grew with broad and hoary blade for the allaying of Beren's wound".
So this herb has been known for thousands of years for its medicinal use. As for its "battle" against the Black Breath, I think that requires the hands of a Healer as well.
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jan 21 2008, 10:24pm
Post #6 of 28
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Frodo is wearing that mithril mail, and that's what saves his life.
I think that you are basically right about the Nazgul's strategy, however. First Frodo took longer than they expected to succumb, then Glorfindel shows up to carry Frodo along, and finally Elrond turns up, wielding Vilya and/or other ancient magic, causing a flood. If any one of these things hadn't turned out the way that it did, the Naz would have succeeded.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 21 2008, 10:40pm
Post #7 of 28
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"it's a topos, as old as the hills"
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Of course, in Khazad-dûm, Frodo is wearing that mithril mail, and that's what saves his life. "I trust I don't have to explain the symbolism of putting on armour"
-The much-quoted NZ Strider, in Oct. 2002.
Feel free to disagree. Lots of people did at the time.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Jan. 21-27 for "Flight to the Ford".
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SilentLion
Ossiriand
Jan 21 2008, 10:54pm
Post #9 of 28
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It seems that Strider is guessing shrewdly upon what the Black Riders seek to do. Do you think it was smart of the Black Riders to retreat so quickly? Were they really expecting Frodo to weaken and become a wraith that quickly? Was it foolishness that the Black Riders relied on this strategy?
At first glance, this seems like a situation where the Nazgul should have crushed their opponents, taken the ring, and scampered back to Mordor. I think Tolkien mentions in one of his letters that this scene bothered him, because Aragorn drove off the Witch King and a few of his buddies with a flaming stick. However, I think it makes some sense when we look at it from the perspective of the Nazgul.
First, I don't think the Nazgul necessarily posess overwhelming physical strength. While they were kings and warriors in life, they were fairly old men by the time that their rings overcame them (Tolkien describes them as pale, gaunt, haggard). Much of their power in life may have come from the influence they wielded over other men under their command, rather than individual prowess in arms. There is no reason to believe that the nine Rings enhanced their physical strength, but there is certainly reason to believe it enhanced their ability to wield power through fear or domination of other wills. That is the model their master Sauron has followed, as well as Morgoth before him, and there's every reason to the believe they would follow that model.
Second, although they have a great ability to induce fear in others, they themselves also live in constant fear. They are terrified of flame, and of clean running water. They are afraid of Sauron. And most certainly they are afraid of death. Mortals go into battle knowing they if they die, their lives will be shortened, but they may achieve honor or protect people or ways of life that they love. Elves go into battle knowing that if they die, their spirits will still survive and they might live again in the west. But the Nazgul have made a Faustian bargain, trading their souls for a form of immortality. This wraithlike existence, painful as it might be, is all they have. If they die, they pass into nothingness. And since evil is all about its own selfish desires, there's no incentive for a member of Team Evil to sacrifice themselves for the benefit of their comrades.
Third, direct combat may not be easy for the Nazgul. They what Frodo sees. Merry, Pippin, Sam and Aragorn are shadows or flashes of light. When they have the advantages of stealth, surprise, and terror, they may able to use their other senses to focus on an isolated target and strike quickly. Their ability to induce terror in their foes is so strong that in most instances this is enough to achieve their purpose. But when they face opponents who stand and fight, it must be quite chaotic to swing wildly at shadows and lights, and to have attackers come at them from unseen directions. Even if they are impervious to most weapons, that can't be their preferred method of combat. They would much prefer to drive armies into battle, than do the fighting themselves.
The result is a situation where the Nazgul are not as anxious for a full-out battle as perhaps they should be. They are operating on unfamiliar territory (the Witch King was once very familiar with this region, but a lot can change in a millineum). The hobbits in the Shire and Buckland put up more resistance than they expected. Nazgul encountered Gandalf not far from this site just a few days earlier, an encounter that was dangerous for the Nazgul as well as for Gandalf. Frodo invokes the name of Elbereth. They may or may not be aware that some of the hobbits have weapons that could do real harm to them. They may or may not be aware of how powerful Aragorn really is, but he's wielding fire and unlike most mortals he isn't running. Given that they have wounded Frodo with what they believe is a mortal strike, they are more than happy to make a retreat.
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jan 21 2008, 11:19pm
Post #10 of 28
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Folks here in the Reading Room (and elsewhere, I assume) have been fussing about the apparent weakness of the Riders in this chapter for many years, and your explanation is the most credible I've seen.
Whew, that was fun.
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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a.s.
Doriath
Jan 21 2008, 11:59pm
Post #11 of 28
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The best thing Strider and the other hobbits did, then, was simply fight back in an organized manner, waving around firey brands and not backing off in terror. It wasn't the fire they held, per se. It was the direct confrontation with determined bravery.
I'm saving your post to read again, it makes quite a bit of sense to me.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"And we must all bring Provisions."
"Bring what ?"
"Things to eat."
"Oh!" said Pooh happily. "I thought you said Provisions.
I'll go and tell them." And he stumped off.
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Ainu Laire
Dor-Lomin
Jan 22 2008, 4:05am
Post #12 of 28
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Funny seeing you here ;) I'll do my best to keep up with your posts, Perian. This chapter is truly a great one.
If you were the hobbits, would you continue to trust Strider? Where was Strider when they were being attacked; where did he come from?
I just reread the section, and he *was* there when they were attacked, and helped get rid of them with the torches he was holding (though they may have been satisfied with their night's work with Frodo instead). But the fact that he immediately disappeared after the fight would have raised alarm bells in my head.
As was said from squire’s previous discussion, the point was raised about Strider seeing that the Ring-wraiths were coming so perhaps they should’ve spent a bit more time preparing for a possible attack?
IIRC, they did not have much time to prepare; and in the end, what else could they have done? These hobbits are not experienced with fighting, and the Ringwraiths are no mere men. They are in the middle of nowhere, as well. I cannot see much else that could have been done, especially with the Ring calling to them the whole time.
It seems that Strider is guessing shrewdly upon what the Black Riders seek to do. Do you think it was smart of the Black Riders to retreat so quickly? Were they really expecting Frodo to weaken and become a wraith that quickly? Was it foolishness that the Black Riders relied on this strategy?
One thing I love about baddies is that you can always rely on their arrogance to get the best of them. This is exactly what happened here. This is no strong Dunadan, but a mere Halfling! They assumed that he would weaken and succumb soon. But, like the rest of the world, the riders underestimated Frodo's strength. I personally think that most hobbits are unusually strong against evil and corruption, which is why Frodo didn't fall to "the dark side". It would have been smart if they had a Plan B to fall back on just in case Frodo didn't succumb, but they were too arrogant (and ignorant) to believe that.
Gandalf had hinted that Frodo is stronger than expected? When did Strider and Gandalf have a discussion about Frodo?
The last one was most likely at Sarn Ford, on May 1st (IIRC; the date should be mentioned in CoE). But I am definitely of the opinion that they discussed Frodo more times than that. Bilbo, a friend of both Aragorn and Gandalf, most likely talked about him, too.
Does Strider know about the Morgul wound? Has it been indicated in HoME or anywhere that he would know about such a wound?
Oh, I would be surprised if he did not. As long as having some sort of personal encounter with the Nazgul (as hinted at in Ch 10, "Strider"), he was trained by Elrond, possibly the greatest healer in Middle-earth. Elrond most likely trained him in the ways of athelas, especially seeing that his bloodline allowed him to do things that very few in Middle-earth could do.
By this indication of what this evil knife can do, it can obviously be deduced that indeed the knife is quite evil. There are also inscriptions upon it that Strider cannot read. Did anyone have any thoughts about the evilness of this knife and if it was poisoned from the beginning?
I imagine the inscriptions are some sort of Black Speech- probably rather ancient. As for the poison, well, I'd gather that the material itself, the material that made the blade, was made by wraiths or Sauron himself, and crafted for that purpose. But certainly poisoned from the beginning, yes.
For Athelas, I hear it also tastes great with chicken soup ;)
Does it actually battle with the Black Breath (as can be seen in The Houses of Healing)? Does it slow the poison of the Morgul wound? Is it mentioned anywhere in HoME or in Hammond and Scull, of its origins or more information about this important healing herb?
I am rather convinced that athelas has a potency of its own to help slow the Morgul poisoning, but that only in the healing hands of the King (or Elrond, or someone related to whoever started the "magical healing hands" stuff) makes it work completely. I don't think any old peasant could battle the wound with athelas, but that they could help make it less painful, if nothing else. Those thoughts are from my own musings, though, and I have nothing canonical to support it. I'll have to read other's answers and see if anyone knows :D
To what extent this is not his fault? Who *could* resist the power of the Ring-wraiths at Weathertop?
I certainly cannot think of anyone who is holding the Ring that could resist the Wraiths- five of them, at that- in their full wrath. Maybe some first age elf, but even then, would they not be convinced to do something else with it if they held it for too long? Who knows. I was never good with these hypothetical questions ;P
Looking forward to your next session.
My LJ
My art site
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sador
Gondolin
Jan 22 2008, 4:07am
Post #13 of 28
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In 'The Council of Elrond' Aragorn says something like "If one must... or tread the flowers of the Morgul-vale, than perils will he find" (with an apology for not giving the correct qoute). I think that's the rason for his terror, and he didn't speak. About the Morgul-knives - well, he knew enough ancient lore for that.
But for chapters earlier, we discussed the Barrow-wights, and some suggested the wight was connected to to Wraiths somehow. Could he be actually the prince of Cardolan, Undead ever since he was stabbed by such a blade?
And (I repeat myself now), was that the threat the Witch-king tried to scare Eowyn (as Dernhelm) with: "Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn" (once again, might be a misquote). Or to put it otherwise, did Eowyn actually save Theoden from a fate worse than death?
"The Wise may have good reason to believe.... unlikely though it seems to those who know less. But may we not hear the proofs?" - Galdor
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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Jan 22 2008, 5:17am
Post #14 of 28
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I am quite nervous, actually being a first-timer... I hope i will do an all right job, and if anyone has more ideas, i am reachable on PM and i'll be glad to include any insights you may have on the next section. :)
This picture is from Anke Eissman, i believe~ My friend made the title for me for I've lead this discussion elsewhere. (on Livejournal.)
"More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth"
Yes, but did you think, the name "Elbereth" only, scared them off or were did they retreat fully *EXPECTING* that Frodo would fall under the wraith world so quickly?
A fortnight is pretty long, and if not for Glorfindel they would have succeeded.
Frodo bore the wound for 17 days...more than a fortnight! "if not for Glorifindel, they would have succeeded"... Do you mean that probably Glorfindel aided them in speed so to avoid Frodo being a wraith because of almost downfall in becoming a wraith? I think that Frodo through his own strength and resilience got through this obstacle all right and don't really credit Glorfindel, though he did a great part in providing Asfaloth to carry Frodo over the Ford and such...
Thanks sador, for responding! =)
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Jan 22 2008, 7:27pm
Post #15 of 28
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That's what I've always thought (about the WiKi)//
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And (I repeat myself now), was that the threat the Witch-king tried to scare Eowyn (as Dernhelm) with: "Come not between the Nazgul and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn" (once again, might be a misquote). Or to put it otherwise, did Eowyn actually save Theoden from a fate worse than death?
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Jan 22 2008, 7:56pm
Post #16 of 28
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There's a bit in Unfinished Tales
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As for its "battle" against the Black Breath, I think that requires the hands of a Healer as well.
that attributes Aragorn's healing skill in the HoH in part at least to the Elessar stone. But that may not be considered canon. If it is, then he wouldn't have that special power yet at Weathertop. But he obviously has some strange power, since he sings over the sword.
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Jan 22 2008, 8:08pm
Post #17 of 28
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link
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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"A Chance Meeting at Rivendell" and other stories
leleni at hotmail dot com
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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Jan 23 2008, 3:48am
Post #18 of 28
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Athelas helped to a degree too, but Frodo's long time in fading certainly caught the Naz off-guard.
And Elrond didn't cause the flood, Glorfindel did, i believe.
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 23 2008, 3:26pm
Post #19 of 28
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If you were the hobbits, would you continue to trust Strider?
What choice do they have? If he wanted the ring he could have it right now, and if he wanted them dead they wouldn’t have woken up from any of the past nights.
Where was Strider when they were being attacked;..
Counterattacking.
… where did he come from?
Well, when a boy Dúnadan really likes a girl Dúnadan….
the point was raised about Strider seeing that the Ring-wraiths were coming so perhaps they should’ve spent a bit more time preparing for a possible attack?
Well, it’s a bit late for either physical conditioning or weapons training. And I somehow doubt earthen ramparts or pit traps would work against wraiths. I suppose they might have dug a fire trench around the entire camp and filled it with some sort of flammable material. Of course by then the hobbits would have been very tired, and they’ve shown before they tend to fall asleep when exhausted, even with Nazgul banging on the door. And the fire would have eventually burned down. Probably best to keep the hobbits alert and rested, and reinforce their morale with s’mores and campfire tales. If Aragorn had had a guitar I’m sure they would have been singing Kumbaya as well. Which come to think of it probably would have repulsed the Wraiths even more effectively than fire.
“I fear, Sam, that they believe your master has a deadly wound that will subdue him to their will. We shall see!”
It seems that Strider is guessing shrewdly upon what the Black Riders seek to do. Do you think it was smart of the Black Riders to retreat so quickly?
Well, one can either assume they’re stupid or they’re smart. And one should never underestimate one's opponents, so let’s assume they’re smart and they did exactly what they intended to do. I mean, earlier they wiped out and put to rout an entire company of Dúnedain at Sarn Ford. So just one ranger with a torch runs them off? I don’t think so!
Were they really expecting Frodo to weaken and become a wraith that quickly?
How quickly? The Nazgul don’t know where Strider and the hobbits are taking the ring, so they have no idea whether Frodo will become a wraith on the road or after he makes it to whatever destination. So the important thing is the wounding itself.
Was it foolishness that the Black Riders relied on this strategy?
Is it foolish when guerillas plant mines to maim rather than kill? They know that if they kill one enemy soldier, they incapacitate one enemy soldier. But if instead they maim one enemy soldier, they incapacitate three enemy soldiers. Two have to carry the wounded. And the entire enemy company is slowed down as a result.
The last is the important part. The Nazgul slowed down the party enough so that they could follow them without losing them. So they could find out to where and to whom they’re taking the ring. And when they finally figure out they’re taking it to Rivendell and Elrond, they close in on their wounded prey like a shot. Pretty smart, really.
Gandalf had hinted that Frodo is stronger than expected?
No surprise. He tends to praise Frodo to everyone he meets.
When did Strider and Gandalf have a discussion about Frodo?
Probably quite a few times. No doubt Gandalf has been planning this for years.
Did Aragorn and Gandalf have time during their Quest to find Gollum?
There’s always time to talk.
Does Strider know about the Morgul wound?
He’s a healer isn’t he?
Is it indicated in HoME or anywhere that he would know about such a wound?
Well, if any of the Dúnedain survivors from the battle of Sarn Ford managed to get to him Strider no doubt had more than a few Morgul wounds to tend. Not to mention the effects of Black Breath.
By this indication of what this evil knife can do, it can obviously be deduced that indeed the knife is quite evil.
Almost sentient.
There are also inscriptions upon it that Strider cannot read. Did anyone have any thoughts about the evilness of this knife and if it was poisoned from the beginning?
The Shards of Morgul do seem awful similar to the Shards of Narsil.
What does athelas actually do other than refresh your minds and have your minds “calmed and cleared”.
Prozac does the same. And cocaine. And it’s not necessarily a good thing.
Does it actually battle with the Black Breath (as can be seen in The Houses of Healing)?
It’s a wonderfully effective placebo in the right hands.
Does it slow the poison of the Morgul wound?
Maybe it slows the progress of a Morgul shard?
Is it mentioned anywhere in HoME or in Hammond and Scull, of its origins or more information about this important healing herb?
Well, athelas was brought to Middle-earth by the Númenóreans. However, there was really no point to them bringing it since it was already here. It had been used by Huan and Lúthien to heal a wounded Beren.
To what extent this is not his fault?
Hindsight is 20/20. We can only do what we feel is right at the time.
Who *could* resist the power of the Ring-wraiths at Weathertop?
Gandalf. But the important thing is not resisting the power of the Ring-wraiths, but resisting the power of the Ring.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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sador
Gondolin
Jan 23 2008, 10:09pm
Post #20 of 28
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In the next chapter, 'Many Meetings'.
"The Wise may have good reason to believe.... unlikely though it seems to those who know less. But may we not hear the proofs?" - Galdor
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elentari3018
Nargothrond
Jan 24 2008, 3:37am
Post #21 of 28
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Love your quirky replies. ;) :D
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Who *could* resist the power of the Ring-wraiths at Weathertop?
Gandalf. But the important thing is not resisting the power of the Ring-wraiths, but resisting the power of the Ring. Well, Gandalf probably could resist the power of the Ring-wraiths but together, if bearing the Ring? He didn't even want the Ring for himself for fear of what it may do to him, so i think it's quite different if he were in Frodo's shoes, having BOTH the Ring and the Ring-wraiths to think about. I think he would've have used the Ring to master the Ring-wraiths and therefore, it'll be like 1 against 5 for a long while. And I do not think that would be a good thing. He could not resist for long and then Sauron would find him and ...that'll be an interesting scene...
"By Elbereth and Luthien the fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!" ~Frodo
"And then Gandalf arose and bid all men rise, and they rose, and he said: 'Here is a last hail ere the feast endeth. Last but not least. For I name now those who shall not be forgotten and without whose valour nought else that was done would have availed; and I name before you all Frodo of the Shire and Samwise his servant. And the bards and the minstrels should give them new names: Bronwe athan Harthad and Harthad Uluithiad , Endurance beyond Hope and Hope Unquenchable.." ~Gandalf, The End of the Third Age , from The History of Middle Earth series
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Jan 26 2008, 12:01am
Post #22 of 28
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I also think this is a great chapter, it's exciting and very interesting, considering what we hear about Frodo's dreams and how he's affected by the wound - although I feel a bit morbid for taking an interest in it. It is also a chapter where Tolkien continues his travelogue of bleak and cheerless terrain with deserted remnants of old cultures, but infusing the story with a greater sense of urgency, although allowing some light-hearted moments of poetry.
By this indication of what this evil knife can do, it can obviously be deduced that indeed the knife is quite evil. There are also inscriptions upon it that Strider cannot read. Did anyone have any thoughts about the evilness of this knife and if it was poisoned from the beginning?
Athelas—wonder plant, also known as Kingsfoil.
We see this come back later in Minas Tirith …What does athelas actually do other than refresh your minds and have your minds “calmed and cleared”.
Does it actually battle with the Black Breath (as can be seen in The Houses of Healing)? Does it slow the poison of the Morgul wound? Is it mentioned anywhere in HoME or in Hammond and Scull, of its origins or more information about this important healing herb?
Well, I see the knife as enchanted rather than poisoned. I guess Athelas mainly helps by calming and strengthening the mind and spirit, which is vital for the wounded to resist the effect of the wound.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 27 2008, 2:33am
Post #23 of 28
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If you were the hobbits, would you continue to trust Strider? Where was Strider when they were being attacked; where did he come from?
As was said from squire’s previous discussion, the point was raised about Strider seeing that the Ring-wraiths were coming so perhaps they should’ve spent a bit more time preparing for a possible attack?
Strider just drove the Black Riders away when the hobbits were helpless! This is one of Strider's greatest moments, although even he doesn't quite understand it. If the hobbits are wondering about Strider, they should first wonder about themselves -- particularly Merry, Pippin, and Sam, who made no attempt to help Frodo.
So, are the hobbits cowards? I think Tolkien is commenting on cowardice. Some argue that there are no cowards among the good people of Middle-earth, but I think that Tolkien simply does not judge those who find themselves helpless in the face of great evil. Only those who are tempted to do evil themselves earn blame and other dire consequences of their actions. Those who are simply afraid are treated gently, and given something honorable to do.
Almost everyone mortal who encounters the Nazgul feels paralyzing fear. Aragorn may be the only exception among mortals, although Frodo and Faramir and Eowyn and Merry all do quite well under the circumstances. But without Aragorn they all would have been lost.
It seems that Strider is guessing shrewdly upon what the Black Riders seek to do. Do you think it was smart of the Black Riders to retreat so quickly? Were they really expecting Frodo to weaken and become a wraith that quickly? Was it foolishness that the Black Riders relied on this strategy?
I think Strider underestimates his own effect upon the Black Riders, and also knows nothing of the fear the Riders might feel for the knife Frodo held. I have always found Strider's reasoning strange. Why would the Black Riders wait for the Morgul blade to work on Frodo when there are other able-bodied people able to take the Ring from Frodo, including one Ranger bold enough to attack the Nazgul?
I never felt comfortable with Strider's explanation, and prefer to think that he is too modest to realize the effect his fearlessness, and his majestic presence on the spirit plane, had upon creatures used to being feared by all. Tolkien prefers to keep the readers in the dark, and even to keep his characters in the dark, but in hindsight it seems highly plausible that the Nazgul just freaked when Strider charged them, much as the hobbits freaked when attacked by the Nazgul. This fear business can work two ways, much to the Nazgul's surprise.
Gandalf had hinted that Frodo is stronger than expected? When did Strider and Gandalf have a discussion about Frodo?
Strider hunted down Gollum for Gandalf, and then spoke to Gandalf again later, when Gandalf informed him of Frodo's plans to leave for Rivendell on Bilbo's birthday. IIRC, Gandalf apparently took a quick trip to the border of the Shire one day when he was staying with Frodo, and alerted Strider to Frodo's plans. But they undoubtedly spoke of Frodo long before that, when Gandalf asked for help hunting down Gollum.
Does Strider know about the Morgul wound? Has it been indicated in HoME or anywhere that he would know about such a wound?
If anyone would know about a Morgul wound, it would be Strider. However it is not clear where and when he would have learned about it. But as the student of Elrond and Gandalf, the heir to the North Kingdom which fought the Witch-king for years, and someone who seems to have had previous personal encounters with the Nazgul, I would find it surprising if Strider did not know anything about a Morgul blade.
Does it actually battle with the Black Breath (as can be seen in The Houses of Healing)? Does it slow the poison of the Morgul wound? Is it mentioned anywhere in HoME or in Hammond and Scull, of its origins or more information about this important healing herb?
I never thought of the Morgul blade as poisoned, unless pure evil is a poison. I have always thought of the blade as cursed, or just magic, as the Barrow blades are also magic, or Sting is magic, except of course that the Morgul magic is evil. Athelas, in the hand of a healer, seems to purify the air and rid the victim of an evil taint, and evil dreams. But properly speaking I don't think Strider is performing magic. Instead I think he is performing the function of a priest-king, calling on the Powers of the West. And in the Houses of Healing the fresh air scented by athelas seems to come from Valinor itself.
To what extent this is not his fault? Who *could* resist the power of the Ring-wraiths at Weathertop?
I don't think this is Frodo's fault at all, and neither does Gandalf when he comments on Frodo's adventure. But Frodo's guilt foreshadows how he will feel about what happens at Mount Doom, when, not surprisingly, he cannot bring himself to throw the Ring into the Fire.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 27 2008, 10:10am
Post #24 of 28
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I wouldn't define cowards as "those who find themselves helpless in the face of great evil". As you say, Tolkien doesn't suggest such people are cowards, and I would agree with him. Hobbits are naturally timid, maybe, and their first instinct is to hide from danger.
But that's not cowardice - cowardice is choosing your own personal safety over that of others. The nearest Frodo comes to cowardice is the moment that Gandalf singles out as the most crucial moment of all - the moment in the barrow when Frodo is tempted to save himself by abandoning his friends. That would have been cowardice, and would have lost Frodo all his grace. His other great temptation to cowardice, I'd say, is his temptation to kill Gollum to eliminate a threat to his own life. (Bilbo faced the same test in The Hobbit.) Denethor I'd characterize as a coward because he chooses to end his own life rather than face up to possible humiliation, and so abandons his people to their fate.
On Weathertop, Merry and Pippin are overcome with fear, and throw themselves to the ground. But I think we can give them the benefit of the doubt and believe that they didn't know that the Riders were going to specifically attack Frodo - they thought all were under attack and they followed their instincts to get down. Sam at least goes to Frodo's side (whether to protect or be protected isn't clear), and looks at Frodo for a sign of what he should do. But ultimately, there's nothing anyone can do - the scene is in total darkness, the Riders nothing but shadows of shadows. We might wonder why Aragorn didn't start the counterattack with firebrands sooner, but for all we know perhaps he was also paralysed at first. Either that, or the speed that things happened in the darkness gave no one time to respond. But either way, cowardice doesn't seem to be the issue here.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Jan 27 2008, 10:41am
Post #25 of 28
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So after claiming my own definition of cowardice in my previous post, I checked the dictionaries and found no reference to the element I claimed, about deserting others to save yourself. They all list nothing but 'extreme timidity' or the like. So going by the dictionary definition, it seems that "those who find themselves helpless in the face of great evil" could be classed as cowards. However, I agree with you that they are not classed as morally weak by Tolkien. It's cowardice as I defined it (incorrectly, it appears) that Tolkien seems to condemn. (And on another topic, that's the kind of cowardice shown by the warriors in the section of Beowulf we're currently discussing.)
Since Tolkien never actually uses the word 'coward', the dictionary definition of the word is irrelevant really, I suppose. But I thought I'd just clear that up!
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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