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**A Knife in the Dark** 4. “My cuts, short or long, don’t go wrong.”
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squire
Gondolin


Jan 16 2008, 3:53am

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**A Knife in the Dark** 4. “My cuts, short or long, don’t go wrong.” Can't Post

It is almost mid-day. Like the Pied Piper leading a parade of hobbits, the curious villagers, and a pony, Strider leaves Bree by the South-gate.

At last they left the village behind. The escort of children and stragglers that had followed them got tired and turned back at the South-gate. Passing through, they kept on along the Road for some miles. It bent to the left, curving back into its eastward line as it rounded the feet of Bree-hill, and then it began to run swiftly downwards into wooded country. To their left they could see some of the houses and hobbit-holes of Staddle on the gentler south-eastern slopes of the hill; down in a deep hollow away north of the Road there were wisps of rising smoke that showed where Combe lay; Archet was hidden in the trees beyond.
After the Road had run down some way, and had left Bree-hill standing tall and brown behind, they came on a narrow track that led off towards the North. ‘This is where we leave the open and take to cover,’ said Strider.
‘Not a “short cut”, I hope,’ said Pippin. ‘Our last short cut through woods nearly ended in disaster.’
‘Ah, but you had not got me with you then,’ laughed Strider. ‘My cuts, short or long, don’t go wrong.’ He took a look up and down the Road. No one was in sight; and he led the way quickly down towards the wooded valley.

Bree Hill is “tall and brown” – presumably barren, by contrast with all the mentions of the “wooded” lowlands and valleys. The landscape seems to roll quite a bit here. I always assume Tolkien is describing lands he has seen and walked himself.
A. If we identify the Shire with Tolkien’s beloved west Midlands, where in England (or Europe) is the “Bree Country”?

B. Are Archet and Combe in the middle of woodlands? If so, how do the inhabitants make a living?

A narrow track leads off the Road to the North. The road is evidently in the middle of nowhere.
C. Why is there a track there? Wouldn’t there be a settlement or some farms nearby to make the track useful to someone?

Strider laughs here, for the second time (first time: 'I see,' laughed Strider. 'I look foul and feel fair.’).
D. What can we tell from these two light-hearted moments about a) his sense of humor and b) his sense of self?

His plan, as far as they could understand it without knowing the country, was to go towards Archet at first, but to bear right and pass it on the east, and then to steer as straight as he could over the wild lands to Weathertop Hill. In that way they would, if all went well, cut off a great loop of the Road, which further on bent southwards to avoid the Midgewater Marshes. But, of course, they would have to pass through the marshes themselves, and Strider’s description of them was not encouraging.
However, in the meanwhile, walking was not unpleasant. Indeed, if it had not been for the disturbing events of the night before, they would have enjoyed this part of the journey better than any up to that time. The sun was shining, clear but not too hot. The woods in the valley were still leafy and full of colour, and seemed peaceful and wholesome. Strider guided them confidently among the many crossing paths, although left to themselves they would soon have been at a loss. He was taking a wandering course with many turns and doublings, to put off any pursuit.

E. What is it that makes this walk more pleasant than that first day in the Woody End? Or the morning on the Downs?

F. Who has made all the “many crossing paths”? Why are they there?

‘Bill Ferny will have watched where we left the Road, for certain,’ he said; ‘though I don’t think he will follow us himself. He knows the land round here well enough, but he knows he is not a match for me in a wood. It is what he may tell others that I am afraid of. I don’t suppose they are far away. If they think we have made for Archet, so much the better.’

G. If the Black Riders were in Bree last night – and if they followed the hobbits across the difficult country of the Woody End and the Marish – why do they not follow Strider & Co. into the Chetwood, surround them at night “in the wild, in some dark place where there is no help”, kill them all and hightail it back to Mordor with the Ring?

Whether because of Strider’s skill or for some other reason, they saw no sign and heard no sound of any other living thing all that day: neither two-footed, except birds; nor four-footed, except one fox and a few squirrels. The next day they began to steer a steady course eastwards; and still all was quiet and peaceful. On the third day out from Bree they came out of the Chetwood. The land had been falling steadily, ever since they turned aside from the Road, and they now entered a wide flat expanse of country, much more difficult to manage. They were far beyond the borders of the Bree-land, out in the pathless wilderness, and drawing near to the Midge-water Marshes.

H. Is the Fox following them? More generally, where are the deer, wild pigs, raccoons, badgers, porcupines, frogs, salamanders, etc.?

The ground now became damp, and in places boggy and here and there they came upon pools, and wide stretches of reeds and rushes filled with the warbling of little hidden birds. They had to pick their way carefully to keep both dry-footed and on their proper course. At first they made fair progress, but as they went on, their passage became slower and more dangerous. The marshes were bewildering and treacherous, and there was no permanent trail even for Rangers to find through their shifting quagmires. The flies began to torment them, and the air was full of clouds of tiny midges that crept up their sleeves and breeches and into their hair.
‘I am being eaten alive!’ cried Pippin. ‘Midgewater! There are more midges than water!’
‘What do they live on when they can’t get hobbit?’ asked Sam, scratching his neck.
They spent a miserable day in this lonely and unpleasant country. Their camping-place was damp, cold, and uncomfortable; and the biting insects would not let them sleep. There were also abominable creatures haunting the reeds and tussocks that from the sound of them were evil relatives of the cricket. There were thousands of them, and they squeaked all round, “neek-breek, breek-neek,” unceasingly all the night, until the hobbits were nearly frantic.
The next day, the fourth, was little better, and the night almost as comfortless. Though the Neekerbreekers (as Sam called them) had been left behind, the midges still pursued them.

I. Would you care to compare this passage with the Dead Marshes in Book IV?



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
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Millican
Lindon

Jan 16 2008, 6:27am

Post #2 of 30 (2405 views)
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......... [In reply to] Can't Post

C. Why is there a track there? Wouldn’t there be a settlement or some farms nearby to make the track useful to someone?

'To their left they could see some of the houses and hobbit-holes of Staddle'

there are some hobbit-holes...

G. If the Black Riders were in Bree last night – and if they followed the hobbits across the difficult country of the Woody End and the Marish – why do they not follow Strider & Co. into the Chetwood, surround them at night “in the wild, in some dark place where there is no help”, kill them all and hightail it back to Mordor with the Ring?

I think they're more careful about this with the Ranger leading the hobbits, they know the task is harder now...

H. Is the Fox following them? More generally, where are the deer, wild pigs, raccoons, badgers, porcupines, frogs, salamanders, etc.?

Fox are more curious and less afraid of larger things around where I'm from (Texas)... you rarely see one but if you do they're not very skiddish here... Deer and Wild Pigs? I hunt these, and they have noses you won't believe... the whitetail deer we have here in the states can differentiate atleast 16 different smells at once, if they don't like it they're gone... our wild pigs can smell you coming from 100 yards or more just after a bath and without seeing you... it's hard to see these while you're walking because of A.) noise and B.) your scent is moving all around... Raccoons? they come out late at night here, as well as most of the fox, but you'll see the fox later into the morning and earlier in the evening (atleast that's when I've seen 'em)... Badgers? we don't have badgers down here... porcupines? I don't think we have those either so I wouldn't know... frogs, salamanders? maybe it wasn't moist enough on their trails... of course this is all based on where Tolkien was from, I can only go by where I'm from...







N.E. Brigand
Gondolin


Jan 16 2008, 7:21am

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No badgers in Texas? [In reply to] Can't Post

That's odd, or queer, as Bombadil would say.
Were they extirpated from your area?

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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Jan. 14-20 for "A Knife in the Dark".


squire
Gondolin


Jan 16 2008, 11:23am

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Along the Rio Grande, at least [In reply to] Can't Post

They don't need no stinkin' badgers



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


Curious
Gondolin


Jan 16 2008, 2:33pm

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Thoughts. [In reply to] Can't Post

A. If we identify the Shire with Tolkien’s beloved west Midlands, where in England (or Europe) is the “Bree Country”?

Some people think Bree (hill) is based on Brill (Bree-hill, i.e. hill-hill). Brill is near Oxford, and Tolkien mentions it in his guide to translators when explaining that Chetwood means wood-wood. Here are some pictures of Brill. Here's the Brill Village website. One key difference is that Brill is at the top of the hill, while Bree is more on the side of the hill.

England has not been naturally wooded for many, many years. So I'm not sure any part of England resembles Tolkien's picture of barren hills and wooded valleys. However the Lake District in northern England has barren hills and cultivated valleys with trees in them:


Note that in the Lake District the villages are not on top of the hills. However I'm not aware of whether Tolkien ever visited the Lake District.

Tolkien lived in Oxford, just north of the North Wessex Downs, which includes the Berkshire Downs, the White Horse Hills, the Lambourn Downs, the Marlborough Downs, the Vale of Pewsey and Savernake Forest:



I can certainly imagine that the North Wessex Downs inspired Tolkien. But I don't know whether there is a village on the side of a hill in the North Wessex Downs.

B. Are Archet and Combe in the middle of woodlands? If so, how do the inhabitants make a living?


I think they are in the middle of a mix of trees and cultivated fields, much like the picture from the Lake District above.

C. Why is there a track there? Wouldn’t there be a settlement or some farms nearby to make the track useful to someone?

It's a track used by the Rangers. It's useful to them, and perhaps they do have a settlement or camp nearby. We know that they still use the north road to Fornost. It may also be used by the locals, who may do some hunting and also walk cross country from farm to farm.

D. What can we tell from these two light-hearted moments about a) his sense of humor and b) his sense of self?

Strider shows impatience from time to time, but he also shows a self-depreciating humor. He can banter with the hobbits. We will see this again much later at the Houses of Healing, when Prince Imrahil is nonplussed. This ability to banter with the hobbits reminds me of Gandalf. Few other non-hobbits (or non-Breeland humans) in Middle-earth are able to talk with the hobbits in their bantering style. And of course few residents of the Shire or Bree know what to do with themselves in the presence of the Great and the Wise. Gandalf and Strider move smoothly between both worlds.

E. What is it that makes this walk more pleasant than that first day in the Woody End? Or the morning on the Downs?

I'm not sure they could the first day in Woody End as part of their journey, since they were still in the Shire at that time. And on the Downs they had to worry about following Bombadil's instructions, which, by the way, they failed to do. Here Strider was confidently guiding them, and they could just follow along and enjoy the view.

F. Who has made all the “many crossing paths”? Why are they there?

The Rangers may well have purposely created a maze they could use to throw off pursuit. Alternatively, this could be an area frequented by animals who created many crossing paths.

Or perhaps all these crossing paths lead to various destinations, and it just looks like a maze to the hobbits. Since Ferny knows some of these paths, they may not be used exclusively by the Rangers. The locals travel cross country as well.

G. If the Black Riders were in Bree last night – and if they followed the hobbits across the difficult country of the Woody End and the Marish – why do they not follow Strider & Co. into the Chetwood, surround them at night “in the wild, in some dark place where there is no help”, kill them all and hightail it back to Mordor with the Ring?

It's hard to find a Ranger in the woods. It's even hard to find a hobbit in the woods. Remember that the Black Riders did not follow the hobbits into the woods in Woody End; they only followed them on the road. They were looking for a place to take the hobbits by surprise. Now they must look for a place to take them by ambush, like a bridge or a ford.

The harder question for me is why Strider heads for Weathertop instead of sticking to the countryside, and why he stays at Weathertop once he knows they might have been seen. But I'll wait until we get there to comment.

H. Is the Fox following them? More generally, where are the deer, wild pigs, raccoons, badgers, porcupines, frogs, salamanders, etc.?

They still aren't too far from inhabited lands, where Breelanders might hunt the animals from time to time. The foxes and squirrels don't have as much to worry about as larger game. Also winter is coming, so the animals are starting to make preparations for winter. They might see more animals in the spring. The narrator's point is that they don't see horses or riders.

I. Would you care to compare this passage with the Dead Marshes in Book IV?

The annoyances are much more natural in the Midgewater Marshes than in the Dead Marshes which are, in fact, dead. The Midgewater Marshes are what we might call thriving wetlands with a noisy community of insects and animals. The Dead Marshes are a polluted, silent, and unnatural cesspool inhabited only by what seem to be spirits of long-dead warriors.



(This post was edited by Curious on Jan 16 2008, 2:35pm)


visualweasel
Nargothrond


Jan 16 2008, 2:55pm

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We have badgers in North Texas [In reply to] Can't Post

I live on the eastern edge of White Rock Lake in east Dallas, and I've seen badgers myself. I've also seen squirrels (naturally), armadillos, skunks, minks, opossums, raccoons, and even coyotes on one occasion (two coyotes on the same morning). Plus a variety of snakes and turtles and many kinds of birds. Yes, all of that in town.

Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish


visualweasel
Nargothrond


Jan 16 2008, 3:19pm

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Where is Bree? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
A. If we identify the Shire with Tolkien’s beloved west Midlands, where in England (or Europe) is the “Bree Country”?



First of all, good answer, Curious! Good investigation of likely spots in Tolkien's immediate environs.

But let me take this in a slightly different direction: a more literal one, I suppose. If we make The Shire "an 'almost rural' village of Warwickshire on the edge of the prosperous bourgeoisie of Birmingham" (Letter #181), then this puts The Shire near the eastern edge of traditional Warwickshire (in what is now West Midlands County). If we then take Bree is roughly fifty miles due East of the Brandywine Bridge, this puts us right around here (courtesy of Google Maps):



I think that we could take Bree to be roughly equivalent (at least in terms of a distance we can visualize) to Cottingham. This is a village in Northamptonshire (the county immediately east of Warwickshire) with a long history. It's in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and the Domesday Book and actually goes back even further. I'm not saying Tolkien had Cottingham in mind, but for me, it fits nicely. The terrain is even fairly hilly (though nowhere dramatically).

Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish


Curious
Gondolin


Jan 16 2008, 6:34pm

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"Badgers? We don't need no stinkin' badgers!" [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry. Couldn't resist. Smile


visualweasel
Nargothrond


Jan 16 2008, 7:25pm

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Treasure of the Sierra Madre. Nice! :) // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish


N.E. Brigand
Gondolin


Jan 16 2008, 7:50pm

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*waits for the wease and IACYO to notice...* [In reply to] Can't Post

*squire's "Rio Grande" post, in this very thread*
Tongue

Not to mention Darkstone's post, down the page.

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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Jan. 14-20 for "A Knife in the Dark".


visualweasel
Nargothrond


Jan 16 2008, 7:52pm

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*LOL* // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish


Curious
Gondolin


Jan 16 2008, 8:01pm

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GMTA. [In reply to] Can't Post

I did not notice that before I made the same joke.


FarFromHome
Doriath


Jan 16 2008, 8:41pm

Post #13 of 30 (2351 views)
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If we identify the Shire [In reply to] Can't Post

with a different bit of England that Tolkien knew - the part of Lancashire where the Bucklebury Ferry might have been - then Bree could be somewhere like Skipton and the hilly country beyond would be the Yorkshire Dales.

There is a "Greenway" running North-South along the line of the Pennine hills (the Pennine Way). Parts of it follow an old Roman road, much as the Greenway follows an ancient road of the old kingdom.

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


Curious
Gondolin


Jan 16 2008, 8:45pm

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IACYO [In reply to] Can't Post

Means I Am Curious (Yellow)? What's the "O" again?


N.E. Brigand
Gondolin


Jan 16 2008, 9:19pm

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Sorry. [In reply to] Can't Post

I guess I should be answering squire's questions not fooling around, but when Starling asked about acronyms on Feedback, I remembered squire's post on the subject.
IACYO = I am Curious, yell "Oh!"

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!

Join us Jan. 14-20 for "A Knife in the Dark".


Curious
Gondolin


Jan 16 2008, 9:20pm

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Here's someone else [In reply to] Can't Post

making that argument. Then again, there are competing claims.

There are also villages near the Rollright Stones in England, which some believe inspired the stones like jagged teeth in the Barrow Downs. Long Compton, for example, is a mile north of the Rollright Stones, and is in the Cotswold Hills. Here's a picture of Long Compton:




visualweasel
Nargothrond


Jan 16 2008, 10:23pm

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Yorkshire, hmm? [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know. That's pretty far from the environs of Birmingham — approaching three times the rough distance we have for the Shire to Bree, and not at all in the same direction. Of course, I know that you can't simply overlay one geography onto the other, but this still doesn't ring quite true to me (no pun intended). Tolkien did know parts of Lancashire and Yorkshire (the latter informs the tale of Beren and Lúthien, which actually does have a connection to our current chapter), but I'm not quite sold.

Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish


FarFromHome
Doriath


Jan 16 2008, 10:43pm

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Well I was starting further North [In reply to] Can't Post

by placing the Shire in Lancashire!

But actually, I agree with Curious that there are many places in England that correspond well with the places described in LotR. I doubt that Tolkien made any attempt to map the hobbits' journey onto the real topography of England, but instead I think he mixed and matched to suit his purposes. There are standing stones, barrow mounds, bogs and marshes, ruined Roman and medieval buildings, ancient roads and bridges, coaching-houses, smallholdings, and pretty much everything else described in LotR somewhere in England. There are probably lots of places with clusters of many of these things. One of the strengths of LotR, really, is that it is so generic - that the places aren't unique but rather are familiar places made unfamiliar by the new setting, so that afterwards we see our surroundings with fresh eyes. Thirty-odd years ago, when my husband and I were driving through the coalfields of South Wales (closed since then) on the way to our honeymoon destination, I remember us deciding that this must have been Mordor - or at least the slagheaps at the Black Gate. It's all in there somewhere!

Smile

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.


visualweasel
Nargothrond


Jan 16 2008, 10:53pm

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Tolkien himself places the Shire in Warwickshire, not Lancashire [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course, he was prone to changing his mind (as we all know), but he says this in two different letters — which constitutes the most explicit acknowledgment we have on Tolkien's part. However, that being said ...


Quote
But actually, I agree with Curious that there are many places in England that correspond well with the places described in LotR. I doubt that Tolkien made any attempt to map the hobbits' journey onto the real topography of England, but instead I think he mixed and matched to suit his purposes.



I think that is very true. As well:


Quote
One of the strengths of LotR, really, is that it is so generic - that the places aren't unique [..]



I agree here too. And this is very different from what some fantasy writers, like Charles Williams or Alan Garner, have done.

Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish


Millican
Lindon

Jan 16 2008, 11:14pm

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ha, in my area I've honestly never seen or heard of badgers [In reply to] Can't Post

I live along the gulf coast... and am originally from the South-Central area of Texas just south of the Hill Country (not too far from here really)... never heard anyone down here speak the word "Badger" minus the time before I went to the Alamo Bowl to see Wisconsin (the Badgers) vs. Colorado, and that was out of my mouth ha... FYI: The Wisconsin Badgers were not named after the animal, but after humans who dug into the ground (who were named after the animal, ha)...

interesting, I'm gunna start asking people if they've seen any...

we have bobcats, squirrels, skunks, deer, wild pig, coyotes, fox (not a lot from what I can tell) raccoons, nutrea in our fav fishing area, alligators, bigfoot (okay, not really), I did see a wildcat/mountain lion once and there are other reports in this area as well, not a common species this side of West Texas (and we're far from there)... ugh and these rattlesnakes have been showin' up left and right, very unusual to see so many this time of year... also learned of a bald eagle nest five miles from my house near the dam, the river authority has a sign set up showing how to spot the nest... luckily they chose government land to nest on so not a big chance of anyone tampering with their young (three a year tops, from past counts)...

I'm sure I'll think of more but I won't take up the whole post... just thought I'd reply...


(This post was edited by Millican on Jan 16 2008, 11:17pm)


Elizabeth
Gondolin


Jan 17 2008, 8:05am

Post #21 of 30 (2323 views)
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Hill vs. valley settlements [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...
Some people think Bree (hill) is based on Brill (Bree-hill, i.e. hill-hill). Brill is near Oxford, and Tolkien mentions it in his guide to translators when explaining that Chetwood means wood-wood.
... One key difference is that Brill is at the top of the hill, while Bree is more on the side of the hill.

Note that in the Lake District the villages are not on top of the hills. However I'm not aware of whether Tolkien ever visited the Lake District.


Whether English villages are on hills or in valleys depends a great deal on who originally established them. The Romans occupied Britain for almost 400 years. They built (in stone) mainly on hills: forts, towns, country estates, etc. The Saxons who followed built mostly wooden structures in valleys. There are mutterings in the early Anglo Saxon Chronicles and other writings from late 1st C AD about "giants" who left stone ruins on hilltops. The towns along the main Roman roads (many of which survive today) tend to be on hilltops, while towns established in previously unoccupied regions (of which the Lake District is a good example) are in valleys.




Whew, that was fun.


Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'


sador
Gondolin

Jan 17 2008, 10:10am

Post #22 of 30 (2326 views)
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Planned not to answer, but couldn't resist [In reply to] Can't Post

A. If we identify the Shire with Tolkien’s beloved west Midlands, where in England (or Europe) is the “Bree Country”?
IIRC correctly, Tom Shippey commented that the Bree villages have got Welsh names.
H. Is the Fox following them? More generally, where are the deer, wild pigs, raccoons, badgers, porcupines, frogs, salamanders, etc.?
For goodness sake! That Fox "never found any more about it"!


FarFromHome
Doriath


Jan 17 2008, 2:00pm

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Those Warwickshire Letters [In reply to] Can't Post

(assuming I've found the right quotes), say that the Shire is "more or less a Warwickshire village" (my italics). I have no doubt that that village was the basis for Hobbiton, but when Tolkien wanted to flesh out the rest of the Shire - the Woody End, the Brandywine, the moors where Sam's cousin saw the walking tree - I think it's likely that he took his inspiration from various places that he knew, not necessarily places geographically linked to the village of his childhood. And as he gets further away from the Shire, into Bree and beyond, again he may have had other parts of England in mind as the basis for his geography.

Tolkien certainly knew the part of Lancashire I used as my jumping-off spot, in fact it seems highly likely that he worked on parts of LotR there, although I don't know what parts he was writing during the years he was a frequent visitor (during WWII, I think, when a trip out to the country must have been a very pleasant change). And claims have been made, as Curious points out, about this area as a source of inspiration before.

But as I say, there are many other places in England (and Wales) that could have inspired the outlying Shire and the places to the east of it. Yorkshire is one such place. In fact it even has a Wetwang which (now I come to google it), is known for its black swans! Is that where they'd come from, the black swans Aragorn sees from the Anduin? Hmmm....

Cool

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.

(This post was edited by FarFromHome on Jan 17 2008, 2:01pm)


Curious
Gondolin


Jan 17 2008, 3:44pm

Post #24 of 30 (2337 views)
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Black swans originally come from Australia. [In reply to] Can't Post

In finance and philosophy, a "black swan" refers to a totally-unexpected development, because Europeans were shocked to find black swans in Australia. John Stuart Mill used the term in the 1800s.

I think I've said this before, but I think black swans were associated with Aragorn because he was a totally unexpected development (hence black) and because he was the returning King (hence swans, the king's bird). Aragorn is also associated with the color black throughout the book.

Tolkien could have seen black swans in England, since I believe they were long ago imported into Europe, but I don't think that is why he put them in LotR. They are not a traditional English bird at all -- in fact, quite the opposite.

I just found out that the mythological black swan was part of European lore long before it was discovered in Australia.


(This post was edited by Curious on Jan 17 2008, 3:51pm)


FarFromHome
Doriath


Jan 17 2008, 4:13pm

Post #25 of 30 (2310 views)
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I wasn't serious... [In reply to] Can't Post

about the origin of the black swans, just making a general point about the many possible sources of ideas. To use Tolkien's own analogy, I think his own particular Soup was made up of many ingredients, and no matter how much we analyse it we will never find the "original recipe". In fact, it seems likely that Tolkien himself didn't even know exactly what he'd tossed into the pot!

...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.

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