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TORn AMATEUR SYMPOSIUM ESSAY: "On the Formation of Fog on the Barrow-downs" by DanielLB
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TORn Amateur Symposium
Bree


Nov 24 2013, 10:15am

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TORn AMATEUR SYMPOSIUM ESSAY: "On the Formation of Fog on the Barrow-downs" by DanielLB Can't Post

Welcome to November 2013 TORn Amateur Symposium, the second TAS!

We are very pleased to present the next essay for TAS2:

"On the Formation of Fog on the Barrow-downs", by DanielLB

Abstract:

In this essay I describe the physical processes responsible for the formation of fog on the Barrow-downs in The Fellowship of the Ring. Using knowledge on the formation of fog in the real-world, I explain how and why the fog formed (and ceased), through Tolkien’s excellent descriptions of the weather through September 3018 Third Age. Though Tolkien’s descriptions represent the formation of fog in the real-world entirely, some discrepancies may indicate an unnatural factor in its formation. I, therefore, conclude that although the fog is entirely possible in nature, it may also have been the work of the Barrow-wights, Goldberry and/or Tom Bombadil (either intentionally, or unintentionally).

To view the essay, please click on the link above.

Our authors have written essays and analyses that are concerned, in some way, with the legendarium of John Ronald Reuel Tolkien. These essays may be philosophic opinions, scientific theories, or analytical approaches to understanding or highlighting some facet of Tolkien's writings and world. These pieces are written with the goal of amateur scholarship at their core - thus inspiring our Symposium title. Authors may choose to include citations or footnotes, but they are by no means required. Keeping in mind the dual spirit of enjoyment and inquiry that we believe in (as much as we value cheer and song), and which is of paramount important to both the TAS team and our authors, we fully encourage discussion of the essays presented.We hope you enjoy it as much as we enjoy posting it. The TAS is open for discussion, and any comments, questions or thought you wish to share about this essay can be posted in this response to this thread.

We have quite a full schedule of essays - essays will posted approximately every other day. The full schedule can be found here.

So please, go forth and enjoy all of the works we have posted for this 2013 November Session. The entire TAS Team, (Elaen32, DanielLB and Brethil), is both delighted and proud to present the essays our TAS members have crafted, relating their interests and skills to the world of JRRT that we all love; a world most intricately crafted, and one that "takes hold of us, and never let's go."


noWizardme
Half-elven


Nov 24 2013, 11:22am

Post #2 of 37 (2394 views)
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So typical of Tolkien to leave us wondering whether "magic" was involved! [In reply to] Can't Post

Firstly and essentially - Bravo DanielLB - yet another fine essay. The things one can learn from these symposia - it really is an Unseen University!

Secondly and self-indulgently - I really enjoyed your descriptions of the various kinds of fog. They reminded me of a what I have often seen on early morning train journeys from Oxford to London - the railway line often crosses the Thames and its tributaries, and in the right conditions one can see fog lingering over the water and low ground while it has cleared higher up.

Thirdly - I was thinking how typical it is of Tolkien to suggest that magic or something supernatural might be at work, but to leave us to wonder. I can think of a range of examples:

  1. Gandalf's fireworks (and later Saruman's bomb at Helm's Deep) magic or explosives?

  2. Shortcut to mushrooms - in the read-through discussion Squire hosted some years ago, it was interestingly suggested that the various navigational mishaps the hobbits have in the gap between parting company with Gildor and meeting Farmer Maggot are key to foiling their capture by the Black Riders - is that good luck, or something else? (see http://users.bestweb.net/...0Higher%20Powers.htm )



  3. Is the heavy stifling feeling the hobbits have in the Old Forest part of the sinister magic of the place? Is it part of Old Man Willow's spell? Or is it purely climatological and natural? Certainly Tolkien works it to sinister effect, just as he does with the fog on the Barrow Downs.


  4. Just what or who is opposing the Fellowship as they try to make it over the Pass of Caradhras? Just freak weather, or a magical will (the Fellowship themselves discuss both options and come to no agreement?) http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=535103#535103


  5. Are the Lothlorien cloaks "magic", or (as their makers reply with some confusion) merely very well-made cloaks?


  6. For that matter, are Sting, Orchrist and Glamdring or the Barrow Blades "magic", or is there "merely" some Technology from Old Gondolin, since lost, within them.


  7. Does Saruman really magically oppose the efforts of Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli to pursue Saruman's raiding party, or is that just in their imagination?


  8. And what are Saruman and Wormtongue doing to Theoden: poisons or drugs? hypnotism? Psychological warfare? Magical possession (the solution we see overtly in the movie)?


  9. Sam and Frodo climb down a cliff on a rope. Just as Sam realises that they, at the bottom of the cliff, must now abandon the rope (secured at the top) it comes undone - magic (as Sam thinks)? Or good fortune that the knot failed only when it did (as Frodo thinks)?


  10. The dark cloud which issues from Mordor - sorcery, or vulcanology? (or, conventional vulcanology, sorcerously induced?)



I'm sure there are many more, along with examples of things which are much more overtly magic. But it does seem to me that Tolkien often LIKES to be ambiguous about these things!

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

(This post was edited by noWizardme on Nov 24 2013, 11:26am)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Nov 24 2013, 11:45am

Post #3 of 37 (2378 views)
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Whodunnit? [In reply to] Can't Post

Like any good mystery, there are several solutions as to who might have ordered the fog (or at least, helped the natural meterology along a little).

A "friendly fog" incident?
As you say - Goldberry and Tom accidentally, as a consequence of rainmaking the day before

OR
Goldberry and Tom deliberately - the fog is meant to provide the hobbits with cover as they cross the exposed downs, but it goes wrong.

OR
Cover from higher up - same idea (conceal the hobbits as they cross the downs): A fog in which to smuggle people away is a trick Ulmo deploys a few times in the Silmarillion. Forgot to send in the eagles this time.

OR - an intervention by the bad guys

Standard Barrow Wight entrapment technique? (With or without enhancement by the Witch King, who might figure he could use the wights to seal off this route, and collect the Ring from the Wight later)

OR
The Ring - it wants to provoke a situation where Frodo has to turn to the dark side by escaping alone from the Wight, abandoning his friends, as a sort of moral tipping point equivalent to Smeagol murdering Deagol? (I have definitely read that idea on this forum somewhere - that teh Ring influences Frod this way when he's in the barrow and is tempted by a solo escape. But darned if I can find a reference now.)

Fun to speculate - and also; I think Tolkien gets a lot of mileage from us not being able to sort it out!

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 24 2013, 12:09pm

Post #4 of 37 (2372 views)
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I think that is why I enjoyed writing it so much. [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
But it does seem to me that Tolkien often LIKES to be ambiguous about these things!


He is spot on with the meteorology of fog formation, but also deliberately hinted at other non-natural factors in its formation. He is so sneaky. Wink And that's really what makes his narration so great. It really is trying to decipher a "who dunnit?"

As you say, a lot of what Tolkien writes could be supernatural or natural. Off the top of my head, another weather event where he has been rather ambiguous is when Glorfindel saves Frodo at the River Bruinen. Admittedly, Tolkien does say that it was Elrond who unleashed the flood, but could it also have been entirely natural. There had been considerable rainfall throughout this part of Middle-earth, so perhaps a natural dam broke upstream? It's naturally possible, even though Tolkien gives as the definitive cause.

Thank you for your kind words. Smile On my commute to work each day, I drive over a river (only a small one). I often see wisps of fog rising up from the surface - it always reminds me of this chapter and isn't too far from what the Hobbits would have seen.



(This post was edited by DanielLB on Nov 24 2013, 12:15pm)


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 24 2013, 12:11pm

Post #5 of 37 (2369 views)
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This is great! [In reply to] Can't Post

Ha! Laugh

I wonder if Tolkien worked this way (or in a similar manner)? I can certainly imagine him trying to figure out whether certain events should be coincidence or not.



(This post was edited by DanielLB on Nov 24 2013, 12:13pm)


Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 24 2013, 1:15pm

Post #6 of 37 (2364 views)
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Thank you for a great piece! [In reply to] Can't Post

You made the topic accessible and clear! Wonderful read Daniel.Angelic

I must say though, I'm on the fence as to whether this is meant to be a natural fog condition or something a bit more. When I first read your piece, I did immediately think of advection fog as the nature of the Barrow fog: the supernatural tough of the chill of the Barrow-wight.

So I'm debating: was this simple radiation fog, which I'm sure as a resident of the UK and a man aware of weather JRRT was aware of, compounded by the chill area proximal to the Barrow?

The second TORn Amateur Symposium is running right now, in the Reading Room. Come have a look and maybe stay to chat!





noWizardme
Half-elven


Nov 24 2013, 2:25pm

Post #7 of 37 (2366 views)
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Sound like a question our HoME scholars might be able to answer [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
I wonder if Tolkien worked this way (or in a similar manner)? I can certainly imagine him trying to figure out whether certain events should be coincidence or not.


Maybe that can be figured out from material eventually published in HoME?

Or maybe Tolkien started in a different place: decided the scene would be better with fog,and then began to think about the who and how and why of it later?

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


noWizardme
Half-elven


Nov 24 2013, 4:17pm

Post #8 of 37 (2361 views)
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The magic of shifting probabilities? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
As you say, a lot of what Tolkien writes could be supernatural or natural. Off the top of my head, another weather event where he has been rather ambiguous is when Glorfindel saves Frodo at the River Bruinen. Admittedly, Tolkien does say that it was Elrond who unleashed the flood, but could it also have been entirely natural. There had been considerable rainfall throughout this part of Middle-earth, so perhaps a natural dam broke upstream? It's naturally possible, even though Tolkien gives as the definitive cause.


I think Tolkien +can+ have it both ways! In real life, if we say someone has had a "miraculous escape" we tend not to mean that the laws of physics have been flouted to the satisfaction of everyone. We're more likely to mean that something exceedingly improbable has happened. The cause of that in turn can either be put down to a literal miracle, or that someone got extremely lucky (low probability events will of course be expected to happen occasionally, just because, while improbable, they're not impossible. )

So maybe if you're Eru, a Valar, Maiar or powerful elf lord wishing to do. "Magic" or "miracles" you would do them by making the unlikely happen rather than temporarily suspending or amending the laws of nature? Maybe full-on miracles (such as resurrecting Gandalf) are exclusively for Eru?

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


DwellerInDale
Rohan


Nov 24 2013, 5:06pm

Post #9 of 37 (2355 views)
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Fog in the mountain hollows [In reply to] Can't Post

Very nicely written essay, Daniel; I know well that dew point is another topic in physics for which most folks have only a vague or "foggy" understanding, if you'll pardon the pun. Here is my question: I grew up in Pennsylvania, where the "mountains" are often sets of folded ridges. On weekend drives through central Pennsy in the autumn, the weather would often be cool and rainy, and the ridges had some interesting fog patches: thick white fog in "hollows" on the ridge side. Thus you could clearly see the top and bottom of the ridge, but there was thick white mist spilling out of the hollows. I nicknamed these patches "firepot hollows" because they looked like white smoke spilling out of a bowl-shaped area. I think I now understand the physics better, and that it may involve mixing of two parcels of saturated or slightly unsaturated air: if I remember the physical principle correctly, the formation of fog in such a case depends on whether or not the mixture's vapor pressure intersects the vapor pressure curve as a function of the temperature. How would you define and explain such fog in your system?

Don't mess with my favorite female elf.














DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 24 2013, 5:17pm

Post #10 of 37 (2347 views)
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Having thought about it for far too long... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

So I'm debating: was this simple radiation fog, which I'm sure as a resident of the UK and a man aware of weather JRRT was aware of, compounded by the chill area proximal to the Barrow?


I think you're right, and the fog was a result of the correct meteorology and (some combination) of unnatural processes. The fact that the meteorology fits, and that radiation fog was observed before the Barrow-downs makes it even more interesting. (It's definitely not advection fog because of the lack of wind and no cooling surface). Tolkien explicitly says that the weather can change quickly, so it it was purely natural he may have written the chapter slightly different.

I also quite like noWizardme's suggestion above, where it was a result of Bombadil, Goldberry and the Wights all acting to help or hinder the Hobbits.



DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 24 2013, 5:24pm

Post #11 of 37 (2351 views)
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Do you mean something like this? [In reply to] Can't Post

Just so I know we're on the same page, do you mean fog like this? I can try my best to explain it, if that's what you meant. Wink



DwellerInDale
Rohan


Nov 24 2013, 5:47pm

Post #12 of 37 (2344 views)
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Not as spectacular... [In reply to] Can't Post

These were very localized patches, maybe 100 m or less in diameter. You could see above and below them to the top and bottom of the ridge. More like this:




When seen from the road maybe 1 km away they looked like dense white patches on the hillside.


In Reply To
Just so I know we're on the same page, do you mean fog like this? I can try my best to explain it, if that's what you meant. Wink


Don't mess with my favorite female elf.














elaen32
Gondor


Nov 24 2013, 9:06pm

Post #13 of 37 (2327 views)
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Season of mists...... [In reply to] Can't Post

Tolkien certainly gives a good and accurate description of the sort of weather that we get in Southern Britain during September. I live and work in Down lands very similar to those that Tolkien describes and mists certainly do form quite quickly later in the day (I always assume that the Barrow Downs are based on the Berkshire Downs, but they are a little further from the sea than my area) And even without barrows, the landscape can seem creepy enough when that happens- part of this being the suppression of sounds in these atmospheric conditions. I am sure that walks in the Downs in these conditions probably inspired Tolkien originally. After that, it seems to me that he set up the climactic conditions appropriate to that setting and added a dash of the supernatural. I agree with NoWiz, that this ambiguity was intentional on Tolkien's part.

Thanks for an interesting essay Daniel and for reminding me of O level geography and A level physics!!AngelicWink


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!



elaen32
Gondor


Nov 24 2013, 9:13pm

Post #14 of 37 (2329 views)
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So, NoWiz- which one of these is your next TAS essay title?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Seriously, though, these are all really interesting points. Maybe somebody could write something on a couple of them for the LOTR 60th anniversary TAS??Angelic (not meaning any one person!)
Hmm, might have to think about that Saruman/Wormtongue/Theoden one- although I already had a topic lined upCrazy


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!



noWizardme
Half-elven


Nov 24 2013, 9:23pm

Post #15 of 37 (2323 views)
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would love to do a TAS3 piece on the ambiguities of magic in Middle-earth [In reply to] Can't Post

would love to do a TAS3 piece on the ambiguities of "magic" in Middle-earth. Indeed, DLB provoked me into doing a Venn diagram of it this morning (a bad sign) Smile )

"What ailes Theoden?" might be an intriguing study for someone with medical/psychiatric knowledge.
...Just sayin'.

Disclaimers: The words of noWizardme may stand on their heads! I'm often wrong about things, and its fun to be taught more....

"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"


elaen32
Gondor


Nov 24 2013, 9:52pm

Post #16 of 37 (2321 views)
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Okay, okay- I hear you... [In reply to] Can't Post

I think I probably will look at that one- thanks for the inspiration NoWiz!!Smile


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!



elaen32
Gondor


Nov 24 2013, 10:55pm

Post #17 of 37 (2315 views)
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This reminded me of a post I made earlier in the year... [In reply to] Can't Post

We were talking about places in RL which reminded us of TOlkien locations and I wrote this-

"On another note, about 20 years ago, I was visiting North Wales and went to Anglesey and Holy Island, where there are a lot of "Barrows". I remember going inside one and it was really creepy- it was a hot day outside but freezing just inside and there was an unsettling feeling. All my imagination, I am sure- and that was before reading LOTR!"

As I said then- the temperature differential was probably natural, but it was quite marked and very easy to imagine it as being supernatural in some way!


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!



Meneldor
Valinor


Nov 25 2013, 4:21am

Post #18 of 37 (2305 views)
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I wish [In reply to] Can't Post

I'd had this to read when I was studying for the private pilot written exam. Your explanation of the common types of fog is much clearer than the ones in the FAA approved textbooks.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters; These see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep.


Brethil
Half-elven


Nov 25 2013, 4:21am

Post #19 of 37 (2310 views)
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Of all the (very) clever scenarios... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
OR - an intervention by the bad guys

Standard Barrow Wight entrapment technique? (With or without enhancement by the Witch King, who might figure he could use the wights to seal off this route, and collect the Ring from the Wight later)




My inclination is towards this one.

The fog has been used by Ulmo, very true. This one feels though like it blocks out the sun and the loss of light seems a very intrinsic JRRT foreboding of evil, as light was so entwined with his sense of the divine.

But then there is the unintended impact of a natural, covering fog that unexpectedly turns nasty as the Hobbits wander into the cold of the Wight's territory...

Clearly I still have to give it more thought (like Daniel has!)

The second TORn Amateur Symposium is running right now, in the Reading Room. Come have a look and maybe stay to chat!





DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 25 2013, 7:57am

Post #20 of 37 (2294 views)
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If you'd taken in a thermometer ... [In reply to] Can't Post

Not that everyone carries one around with them (though I do have one at home Wink) the difference in temperature might have been less than you would expect.

Outside of the barrow, you were probably in broad daylight (and in no shade). You would have felt hot because the sun was shining directly on you. So you weren't feeling the temperature of the air, rather the temperature of the sun on you. Which is why all temperature readings are taken in the shade. In contrast, the Barrow is in shade and so the temperature inside the Barrow would've been the ambient air temperature.

I'm speculating, but a thermometer inside the Barrow would have shown the same temperature as a thermometer outside in the shade. You felt colder because you were cooling down, not because the air was actually any colder.

(I could be wrong). Tongue

I'll be back later with some radiation fog pictures I took years ago on some moors. They're quite creepy, and always remind me of the Barrow-downs.

Edit: I've also googled the Angelsey barrows, and it look to me like they're at ground level (albeit with earth on top) with open doorways. Are they the same ones?



(This post was edited by DanielLB on Nov 25 2013, 8:00am)


DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 25 2013, 8:05am

Post #21 of 37 (2290 views)
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What if ... [In reply to] Can't Post

We know that fog was a common feature of the weather in the area before the Hobbits even reached Bombadil's house and the Barrow-downs. Perhaps the Wights used the fog as an intentional mask, so that the Hobbits presumed it was just natural. Since they'd already observed fog perhaps the Wights wanted to trick them, and lure them closer to the Barrow? If the Hobbits had suspected something supernatural, they may have fled quicker? Perhaps the fog was natural altogether, but the Wights were manipulating it for there own needs?

(Just throwing ideas out there).



DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 25 2013, 8:33am

Post #22 of 37 (2288 views)
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I think there could be a number of possible explanations ... [In reply to] Can't Post

And I'm not sure which is more likely.

1) It's not fog at all, but rather just low stratus clouds. There is no physical difference between fog and a cloud, except that we tend to think of a fog as being near the ground. The stratus clouds might be part of the system which brings the rainfall.

2) Fog tends to form over moist surfaces (e.g. a river valley or a west forest) because the dew point is higher. A high dew point means the air has a high water vapour content, which makes it easy for that air to become fully saturated, and thus condensation and fog formation. Since you said it would rain beforehand, and were in localized patches, perhaps it was some sort of evaporation fog (like the Hobbits see on the Withywindle, but on a larger scale).

3) You hinted that it might also be mixing fog, which might be the case. The mixing of two subsaturated air parcels can result in fog, and this is due to the very strong dependence of vapour pressure on temperature. The classic example of this is when you can see your breath on cold winter days. Neither the air in your mouth nor in the environment is saturated, but the mixture of the two is. The warm moist air expelled from your lungs mixes with the colder air. For a moment, the mixture becomes saturated and you can see the condensation in the air coming from your mouth. Of course, this process doesn't last long because the mixed air mixes with even more drier air until the air is no longer saturated and the water droplets from your breath quickly evaporate. Perhaps, in your instance, the mixture may have had a temperature low enough
to produce saturation and condensation, producing the mixing fog. There isn't any particular difference between evaporation fog (2) and mixing fog (3), so both of these points should really be merged together,

4) Fog spills downwards into low-lying areas (valleys) because cool air is more dense than the surrounding air, and so will drain downhill. Regardless of how the fog formed, this probably explains the "spill effect". Unless it was uplsope fog, which is produced as moist air flows up along the mountain and becomes saturated due to expansion and cooling.

I'm not really a fog expert, and it's not something I know a lot about. But I hope that has kind of covered some possibilities. Deciphering fog on the Barrow-downs was easier. Wink



elaen32
Gondor


Nov 25 2013, 9:11am

Post #23 of 37 (2286 views)
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Yep, definitely the same barrows... [In reply to] Can't Post

Although there are several groups of them spread over Anglesey and Holy Island. Don't spoil my creepy story with real world rationalism Daniel!Tongue Although you're probably rightFrown I didn't have a thermometer (surprise!) but I do possess a vivid imagination!


Is there a Tolkien topic that you have wanted to look into more deeply and write about your thoughts on it? If so, we'd like to hear from you for the next TORn Amateur Symposium- coming in November. Happy writing!



sador
Half-elven


Nov 25 2013, 10:08am

Post #24 of 37 (2291 views)
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Wouldn't Tolkien have said the same about the Primary World? [In reply to] Can't Post

I mean, it is possible to attribute many RL events to blind natural phenomena; but wouldn't JRRT, as a religious person, see them (at least some of them) as the works of Providence?
I'm not sure how much of this is ambiguity, and how much is a statement of this double meaning of natural reality.
Regarding the question whodunnit, whether friend of foe - I cannot but cite the words of Eru to Ulmo in the Ainulindalė:


Quote

Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of my clear pools... Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou art drawn nearer to Manwė, thy friend, whom thou lovest.


Perhaps this was another case of Evil intent, which the Valar turned aside?






DanielLB
Immortal


Nov 25 2013, 12:17pm

Post #25 of 37 (2276 views)
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I've put some photos in an album [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Tolkien certainly gives a good and accurate description of the sort of weather that we get in Southern Britain during September. I live and work in Down lands very similar to those that Tolkien describes and mists certainly do form quite quickly later in the day (I always assume that the Barrow Downs are based on the Berkshire Downs, but they are a little further from the sea than my area) And even without barrows, the landscape can seem creepy enough when that happens- part of this being the suppression of sounds in these atmospheric conditions. I am sure that walks in the Downs in these conditions probably inspired Tolkien originally. After that, it seems to me that he set up the climactic conditions appropriate to that setting and added a dash of the supernatural. I agree with NoWiz, that this ambiguity was intentional on Tolkien's part.

Thanks for an interesting essay Daniel and for reminding me of O level geography and A level physics!!AngelicWink


Here, of fog on the Bodmin Moors. It probably wasn't radiation fog (either sea or advection fog) because the weather was pretty rubbish the entire time we were there. But I imagine scenes like this were inspiration for Tolkien.

It was creepy enough being there in broad daylight. It's exactly how I imagine what the Hobbits saw.



(This post was edited by DanielLB on Nov 25 2013, 12:17pm)

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