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Pryderi
Ossiriand
Oct 30 2010, 7:56pm
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THE RING GOES SOUTH: Open Discussion.
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Welcome to the open discussion on this week's chapter. This is your chance to raise any topics that I may have missed in my four previous posts. I'm sure there's a lot more to The Ring Goes South than I have been able to cover.
Here's one idea which did not seem to fit any of the topics I set myself. Isn't the title of the chapter itself quite interesting? In the text of the chapter there is very little mention of the Ring. It is the Fellowship's departure and journey which is described not that of the Ring, although of course the reader is fully aware that Frodo is bearing that burden. So why that title? Does it imply some sort of will on the part of the Ring? On the face of it the Ring is being taken south rather than going of its own accord. Make of that what you will. Perhaps I'm making too much of it.
So comment on that or anything else about the chapter that you find interesting. And Have Fun!
Thanks for having me during the past week. I hope my posts were not too severely delayed. That's all.
Pryderi.
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Oct 31 2010, 5:13am
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Amidst all the preparations, it occurs to me that there's been no mention of what Glóin is supposed to tell Sauron's messenger, who demanded an answer by the year's end. Is this a loose end?
Forgive me if this was discussed last week, I'm sorry but I've gotten rather behind.
Thanks, Pryderi, for a good discussion this week!
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Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on Oct 31 2010, 5:14am)
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Curious
Gondolin
Oct 31 2010, 6:07pm
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Arguably, it gets tied up later.
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In Minas Tirith, Legolas and Gimli talk about why they didn't send for help like Aragorn's Rangers -- because their people are undoubtedly at war, and don't have help to spare. In the appendices, we learn that they were right.
Obviously the dwarves aren't going to give up the Ring. So they'll say no to Sauron's messenger, and prepare for war. Gloin presumably took that message back with him, while Elrond had a quiet word with Legolas and Gimli and asked them to stick around and join Frodo. We can figure it out, but I suppose Tolkien could have said something more about it. I never wondered about it, though.
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Curious
Gondolin
Oct 31 2010, 6:19pm
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Why did they wait for months to set out from Rivendell?
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Isn't speed of the essence? Isn't it worth the risk to leave immediately, without knowing what happened to the Black Riders? If they had set out, they would have avoided the winged Nazgul. Moria might not have been roused against them by orcs from Mordor. They might have been able to cross Caradhras and avoid Moria altogether. Sauron would not have been as well prepared for war.
And if the scouts had discovered that the Riders had not been unhorsed, what would the Fellowship have done? Wouldn't they still have to head south? Wouldn't an immediate start have been even more important, before the Riders collected themselves and made plans?
I just can't figure this one out.
That being said, all the preparations they make do contrast with the way that Frodo started out from the Shire. There is the appearance of great care and preparedness (although they forgot rope, and didn't make sure the hobbits studied the maps -- but there is only so much you can do for the hobbits, I suppose). Still, I'm not sure it all adds up to a good tactical decision.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Dor-Lomin
Oct 31 2010, 8:13pm
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Though there would have been perils at whatever time the Fellowship had left. Just couldn't have been avoided. They just had to be reasonably sure that any Nazgul weren't about. One supposes that the Nazgul could have organized any forces of Evil more effectively to cause trouble for the Fellowship.
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Oct 31 2010, 10:48pm
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A lot of Tolkien's timing had nothing to do with plot-internal imperatives, but with his obsession for symbolic timing.
* Frodo had to wait 17 years to set out so he'd be exactly the same age as Bilbo at the time of his adventure.
* He had to leave on the Birthday.
* The Fellowship had to leave Rivendell on Christmas Day
* The Ring had to be destroyed on the traditional date of the first Easter
All of this required expanding the plot, sometimes in ways that make little logical sense, to make things line up, including this 2-month delay. The month spent in Lorien is, arguably, another delaying tactic to make the Easter thing work out.
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Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 1 2010, 12:02pm
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That may well be the story-external reason.
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But for me the story-internal reason for the delay doesn't work, especially when everyone is berating Frodo for delaying his departure from Bag End and going on and on about the importance of speed.
As squire noted in a previous thread, the December 25 date would be more like December 15 in the Primary World, according to the appendix on calendars. Nor would the March 25 date be the same in the Primary World. Did Tolkien do this to further disguise the Christian dates? He already glosses over them in the text, where the December 25 date is not even mentioned. Or is it possible that we are giving too much significance to those dates?
And remember that Tolkien was also big on the change in seasons. It's not absolutely clear to me that Tolkien intended these dates to be specifically Christian references, as opposed to dates that somewhat align with the change in seasons. After all, that's one reason Christians chose those dates for their celebrations -- to co-opt the non-Christian celebrations of the seasonal changes. I think Tolkien may have been more interested, or at least just as interested, in the traditional symbolism associated with the dead of winter and the beginning of spring.
Tolkien might have made this all work if he could have explained what would have happened if the Black Riders still had their horses. What was Plan B? Or, perhaps he could have explained it better by emphasizing that Frodo needed the time to recover from his wound, rather than focusing on scouting. But instead he glosses over the issue by having everyone agree that scouting was important, without ever really explaining why.
And truthfully, I think readers accept Tolkien's explanations for delays and detours along the way, not just here but throughout the story, because we aren't really in a hurry to get to Mordor. We like to linger in Rivendell and Lothlorien and Fangorn and Ithilien with the characters. We also need a break from fear and drama. We need some hobbity humor, some lingering on good meals, some clever exchanges between the characters. I enjoy the pace of LotR, which often slows down and lingers, then gradually builds back up to fast-paced action. So I'm okay with the wait -- as long as I don't think about it too hard.
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sador
Gondolin
Nov 2 2010, 10:27am
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The Ring goes South - miscellania
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In this chapter the Fellowship in formed, and sets out to the South. It begins with the Council held by the hobbits in Bilbo’s room, and ends three months later, with the retreat from Caradhras. Pippin has the first mouthpiece, being indignant with Elrond’s chosing Sam to go with Frodo; the last speaker is Gandalf admitting defeat – the only time the wizard will have to do so. Apart of the Nine members of the Fellowship, the only other characters who speak are Elrond and Bilbo – unless you count the Elves of Rivendell bidding farewell in soft voices, or the single croak uttered by the crebain in Hollin – presumably as a sign that the Fellowship was seen.
* * *
The Red Book Conciet
This chapter is narrated very differently from the two preceding ones; having no unity of time or place, it consists of many short scenes, and several descriptive paragraphs which have no dialogue in them. While it is still heavily focused on Frodo, there are some occasions in which Tolkien ‘leaves’ him, and lets another member of the Fellowship narrate.
The first scene is one of the longest; and interestingly, purely descriptive, with no glimpse into anyone’s thought. This is followed bt two sequences with no dialogue – one starting with the healing virtue of Rivendell, but followed immediately with a description of autumn, the chilly wind from the Mountains, the Hunters’ Moon putting to flight all the lesser stars, and the shining red star in the South, seen by Frodo. As was discussed, we do not know whether anyone else saw this star, or whether it was a vision revealed only to Frodo.
The second sequence describes the return of the scouts, and their reports. It is ended with a summing-up by Gandalf – said to whom? Since the reports refer to the strange country beyond the Silverlode, we can suppose it is to a hobbit, and Frodo would be the most natural audience. This is followed by the scene in which Elrond summons the hobbits to decide who will go with the Fellowship. Surprisingly, Gandalf and Aragorn also speak – what are they doing here? Are they hobbits? And why were all four summoned? Did Elrond really mean all four to go with Frodo, or did he feel they needed to understand the alternative mission he intended them to fulfill?
This is followed with the preparations of the Fellowship – Aragorn’s renewd sword is described and named, and the way the four hobbits pass they time is recounted. This is followed by the scene in which Bilbo gives Frodo Sting and the mithril-shirt. Perhaps Elrond’s last counsel belongs to this part – it was apparantly said in The Hall of Fire rather outside.
The fourth scene is the farewell. Someone is describing the members of the Fellowship – “Aragorn sat with his head bowed to his knees; only Elrond knew fully what this hour meant to him”. Is this Frodo writing with hindsight, or must we admit to an omniscient narrator? “The others could be seen as grey shapes in the darkness” – by whom? After that, we see with Sam’s eyes – talking to Bill, feeling low, going over the list of items, chiding himself for forgetting to take any rope; and at the end of this scene, we get two complementary prespectives – “At last they turned away and faded silently into the dusk”, but “Then with one glance at the Last Homely House twinkling below them they strode away far into the night”. Apparantly the narrator can walk with the Company, and also watch them fade away from Rivendell.
This is followed by a long sequence describing the way South. The country described, and contrasted to the green vale of the Great River – a place which neither Frodo nor Sam ever saw or will see – but perhaps they are reporting what they’ve heard from Gandalf and Aragorn, as their guides’ motives are also explained. We feel with the walkers – with the company as a whole seldom feeling warm (later we will find out that Legolas wasn’t particularily bothered by this, but we didn’t know that before); the four hobbit bewildered by the distances – “At first it seemed to the hobbits that... they were creeping like snails, and getting nowhere.”, which is followed by a description of the bleak foothills of the Mountains; but the story begins only with Frodo – “Frodo remembered little of it save the wind”.
The first day and night in Hollin (January 8th-9th) are the frame for five short scenes –
· The first view of the land at sunrise (described through Frodo’s eyes), which includes Gimli’s recognition of the mountains, Gandalf’s hints regarding his plans and Legolas speaking of the stones and their lament.
· Aragorn’s restlessness, wandering after breakfast outside the dell in which the fellowship rest “with his head posed as if he was listening”.
· Sam and Aragorn’s watch, which is described through Sam’s eyes – he feels the silence, hears his own joints creaking, and notices the dark patch, which isn’t explained until he makes it out to be flocks of birds.
· Waking up in the afternoon, in which Sam mutters aside to Frodo – but that might be told by Frodo, who could also attest that Sam understood nothing of maps and was out of his reckoning.
· After a description of the path through Hollin they take at night, Frodo sees or feels something passing in the sky, and so do Gandalf and Aragorn – did Frodo hear him muttering?
On Januray 11th the attempt to cross Caradhras begins. Six short scenes from this night are recounted, all apparantly by Frodo:
· The debate between Gandalf and Aragorn he overheard.
· Gandalf announcing that they will make for Redhorn Gate, in which Frodo is said to be relieved that the dark secret way is not attempted.
· Feeling feels the first snow at midnight and hearing Sam commenting on it.
· Halting after difficult toil because of the fell voices. The way is said to be hard even for Boromir; do you think any of the hobbits was in a position to notice this? Gimli “as stout as any dwarf” grumbles; and it is plain that the hobbits cannot go on – Pippin is especially miserable, but is said to be shivering between Frodo and Merry. However, the only personalized description is “Frodo’s feet felt like lead”. Again, Sam’s muttered comments are also probably overheard by his master.
· Frodo dozing and dreaming of Bilbo until Boromir lifts him up and wakes him. After drinking miruvor, Frodo “felt a new strength of heart, and the heavy drowsiness left his limbs. The others also revived and found fresh hope and vigour.” The others also revive. After lighting the fire, “the Company cared no longer for watchers or unfriendly eyes. Their hearts were rejoiced to see the light of the fire.”
· Before dawn, Frodo gazes wearily at the falling flakes. Suddenly, as he feels sleep creeping over them, he becomes aware that Boromir was right and the snow is lessening.
On the morning of the 12th there are three scenes, which are actually a running sequence:
· The “silent shrouded world” which is revealed. Legolas is said to be still light of heart, bantering with Gandalf. Boromir and Aragorn are described as they go to force a way, with Boromir seeming “to be swimming or burrowing with his great arms rather than walking”. Legolas is described as he appears to Frodo, who “noticed as if for the first time, though he had long known it, that the elf had no boot.”.
· The descent from Caradhras – which is first described as “they” (the six members of the company left above) seeing the Men and Elf returning; the actual descent is described through Pippin’s eyes, as he marvels at the sheer strength of Boromir.
· As they stand again on the flat shelf below, the narrative returns to Frodo. His legs ache, “He was chilled to the bone and hungry; and his head was dizzy as he thought of the long and painful march downhill. Black specks swam before his eyes. He rubbed them, but the black specks remained” – and with that we are introduced again to the spying birds.
Glimpses of a forest
Once again, I will try to enlist the new information about Middle-earth that can be gleaned from this chapter. Naturally, being a chapter of action rather than exposition and debate, this part will be considerably shorter than the corresponding part of the previous one.
The first scene has no news in the sense of this part; even Gandalf’s answer that the Ringwraithes were not destroyed repeats what he told Frodo in Many Meetings, albeit with an emphasis on their survival rather than their being crippled. We also get to know the ending of Bilbo’s book! But that’s all, and even the sequence regarding the healing virtue of Rivendell adds nothing at all.
The reports of the spies do give us several new tidbits. We learn of the ruined Tharbad and the North Road, and of the Gladden River and the Mountain-pass at its source – although the map shows two main sources; perhaps the Northren one only drained the valley on that side of the Mountains? Although still, I wonder Gandalf and Aragorn didn’t consider that pass, as well as whu wasn’t there a mountain pass near the source of Nimrodel, seeing that on the other side of the Mountains rises the Glanduin. We know Rhosgobel already, but the Dimrill Stair is new (and will be explained later in this chapter); we also hear of Silverlode and the strange country beyond it.
Anduril is named – which is going to prove quite important; Sting and the dwarf-mail are given to Frodo, having been brought from Michel Delving (only those who read the prologue will understand the reference; those who skipped it, will only know that Michel Delving had a mayor, from the comic story Pippin told in Bree). In the actual farewell from Rivendell, the arms of each member of the Company is described – Glamdring is named, and so is Orcrist (which we know from The Hobbit); so is Bill the pony.
In Hollin – well, the name Hollin is new itself; we only knew before the Elvish name Eregion, and we had no idea it was so near. In the distance three peaks are seen, and Gimli names them in the tongues of Elves, Dwarves and Men: cruel Caradhras, Barazinbar, the Redhorn; Celebdil, Zirak-zigil, Silvertine; and Fanuidhol, Bundushathur, Cloudyhead. Beneath the three mountains lies Khazad-dum, the Dwarrowdelf, now called Moria the Black Pit (what does ‘now’ mean? since when?); and between them Azanulbizar, Nanduhirion, Dimrill Dale. Gandalf states the are making for the Redhorn Gate and Dimrill Stair (mentioned again). There lies the Mirrormere, Kheled-zaram, where the Silverlode, Kibil-nala, rises in its icy springs. After them, Gandalf intends to lead the Company to the secret woods and the Great River. How many connected ‘the secret woods’ with the strange country the sons of Elrond visited? Legolas mentions that Eregion was deserted, and its folk left for the Havens; he also says they were alien to the silvan folk he comes from. Are we supposed to recollect the passage regarding the origins of the wood-elves in Flies and Spiders?
From Aragorn’s discomfort we learn a but in what might be expected in Eregion; but the crebain we see here are said to be foreign to the land, and to come from Fangorn and Dunland (adain, new names). Once the Company begin climbing Caradhras, nothing new is added – except for the concreteness of Gimli’s words “cruel Caradhras”.
A fine comic troop
Pryderi has actually started a similar thread, which saves me a lot of the work. I’ll just add some short comments on each character, based on the order in which they speak.
The chapter begins with Pippin. As Pryderi noted, Pippin does come across as immature – calling Sam’s being sent with Frodo “a reward”, claiming he should come as the intelligent member of the Fellowship, and in wondering what took the council so long; he also does so when arguing with Elrond – when surprisingly Gandalf supports him, quoting his immaturity as an advantage, and mentioning Pippin’s devotion andloyalty as preferable to the power of Glorfindel. (In the drafts Tolkien did attempt to explain why no High-Elves were sent; in the final text this has been omitted – perhaps becuse he wasn’t satisfied with the answer?) It must be said than later, Pippin proves the worth of his loyalty and devotion (saving Faramir), and even his intelligence, in guessing Grishnakh’s game!
However, throughout this chapter (and the next one) Pippin does behave like a child which joined the company of his elders. He complains about the lack of hot food, is the first one to go to pieces in the snow, and dares to ask how on earth will the hobbits get down – for which he is rewarded with a piggy-back ride on Boromir. The reward is also ours, as we are able to read of the way down through the eyes of the person most capable of pure, simple wonder and admiration. I really love this passage – it is so fresh and exciting! In short, Pippin might be a spoiled brat; but his heart is in the right place, and judging by recent events, I think the folk on TORn (with the exception of a few purists) tend to love and admire spoiled brats, if their hearts are okay, don’t we?
Pippin is answered by Frodo, who considers the Quest he took upon himself a punishment. Having volunteered for this suicide mission, he seems to be in the aftershock – and it remains to be seen when he will recover. As both Darkstone and squire said, his spending time with Bilbo seems to be a way of escape, as well as cherishing the last moments with the person he loves the most – quite like the hero of an Erich Maria Remarque book. Later in Caradhras, he seems the one most prone to falling asleep, which is the equivalent of giving up and dying in such snow – only to be saved by Boromir, and then revoved by miruvor. Did he give in to fatigue, and hypothermia – could this be an effect of his old wound? Or is he simply the most psychologically fragile member of the Company, prefering to lie down and die dreaming of Bilbo to confronting the grim reality? Both answers are possible; but I note that on the way up, Frodo was actually robust enough physically to support the miserable Pippin. Perhaps the gloom of this chapter is due to its being narrated through Frodo’s eyes, which makes nature itself an oppressive force. Even Frodo’s surprise at Legolas’ being immune to the storm, which is far more marvelous than Boromir’s sheer strength and presistence, does not convey any wonder – “Frodo noticed as if for the first time, though he had long known it, that the elf had no boots.” Reads more like dull recognition.
As opposed to Frodo and Pippin, we don’t get to see though Merry’s eyes – not until he is left on his own in Rohan! In this chapter he answers Frodo explaining Pippin’s jealousy of Sam, and he seems reasonable enough, which is more than could be said of either of them. Later, when Elrond partially relents regarding the younger hobbits, he still wants Pippin to go to the Shire – this might be because Elrond realises that the Took family have more political clout than the Brandybucks, but it is also a sign of his recognition that Merry will be a valuable member of the Fellowship (something which seems to surprise even Gandalf in the next chapter!). merry proves his worth in the next two instances he speaks in this chapter – he is the first of the Fellowship who notices Aragorn’s restlessness, and the only one who questions Gandalf about his plans after reaching the Great River. Apparantly, Merry is the one hobbit who would grasp the answer. We are told that together with Pippin he was often hiking outof Rivendell, but later in this chapter Pippin says that the hikes included learning trips to the library and looking at maps; and unlike Pippin, we will be told (in Treebeard) that Merry actually remembered what he saw.
The most striking thing about Gandalf in this chapter is the developing of his special relationship with Pippin – both in his condescending remark regarding their respective intelligences, and in his persuading Elrond into including the spoiled brat in the Fellowship. This relationship began in Many Meetings with the rebuke regarding the ‘Lord of the Ring’ title which Pippin bestowed upon Frodo; and will carry on in Moria and Isengard and culminate in Minas Tirith.
In this chapter we do not see Gandalf’s greatness – although it is obliquely hinted at in Elrond’s words; on the contrary, he seems to be as lost as a hobbit in the snow, with the only exception of lighting a fire. In the next chapter he will come to his own as a guide.
Bilbo seems quite wise for a hobbit, and we are treated to some more of his poetry. His concern with his book (and the sequel regarding Frodo’s adventures) is very touching – is this a lingering effect of the Ring, an attempt to influence the conscience of future generations, or perhaps an obsession with his own barreness? Why does he need to write, and which audience is he envisioning? Even when saying farewell he remind Frodo to take notes of his Quest for the book – is this a way of detaching himself, or masquerading his own feelings? Similarly, the gift-giving scene in his room takes place on one of the rare occasions Sam isn’t present – would Sam disturb the communion between uncle and nephew? Is this personal intimacy neccessary for the giving of Sting and the dwarf-mail? Is Frodo becoming Bilbo’s heir, successor or just his knight? On a lighter note, he still has a sense of humor – as in his wry comment about the S.B.s buying Bag End.
Pryderi thought that Sam’s nobility begins to shine in this chapter. I’m not sure that his organising Frodo is evidence enough of anything more than being a meticulous manservant; and regarding Bill, I note Sam’s remark to the pony regarding how he shouldn’t have volunteered to come. The irony is quite remarkable, considering that like Bill, Sam is the only member of the Fellowship who really wasn’t asked; He was basically picked as a ‘reward’ for his cheek to his betters, just like he was by Gandalf at the end of The Shadow of the Past – that idiot Pippin really does not understand what Sam is going through!
But the irony in his words to Bill in just one occasion. In the talk at Bilbo’s room, Sam utters two sentences – both deflating, and beginning with “Ah!”: he points out that they will wait long enough for winter, and asking where ‘they’ will live – is this a normal question regarding popular novels (like Thackeray’s comment about happy endings in Vanity Fair), showing that Sam is a cut above the average reader, or a comment regarding the heros of the present story? Either way, is this a foreshadowing, nay a prophecy, of Bilbo and Frodo’s passing over the Sea? But beyond that, he twice mutters to Frodo similar comments – regarding the Mountains of Moria, but starting with “too warm, I’ll warrant”; and the simile of the one wall as a house, regarding the supposed shelter in Caradhras. In short, Sam is revealed as an irrepressible cynic. Will this help him later? Is this a trait often associated with members of the domestic servants caste?
As Curious noted, Elrond’s words are the best speeches which could be broken into blank verse. Adding that to his highly archaic style commented about in the previous chapter, I think he is characterized quite well. He is shown to have foresight (regarding the Shire), to know his own limitations (hence his refraining from giving specific advice to the Fellowship as a whole – compare to Gildor’s words to Frodo about advice being a dangerous gift), and is considerate of the psychology of mortal (see his words to Gimli regarding taking oaths).
I haven’t got much to say about Aragorn, save that he shows himself to advantage as a guide. However, in the blizzard he seems to follow Boromir’s lead, as is shown visually in the description of their going to force the way down. I wonder why? Was Boromir simply stronger, and a better mountaineer? Or was Aragorn more depressed because of the failure of the way he advocated? Or because of the alternative way he realised that they were going to take?
Pryderi has discussed Boromir, Gimli and Legolas in length. Regarding them, I will just add a few points:
· As I mentioned, the next time Boromir blows his horn will be on the Bridge of Khazad-dum. However, I would mention this setting out openly, while acknowledging that he will later go like a thief in the shadows, as the real context of his words on Amon Hen “I am a true man, neither thief nor tracker”, which Milady saw as an underhand reference to Aragorn.
· What do you make of his saying “I have some strength left, and so has Aragorn”? How can he be so sure about the other?
· As I’ve noted already, Gimli’s progress in these chapters is very interesting: he does not attend the feast (or at least is relegated to a side table, far from his father); he is silent at the Council, and here at last he speaks – arguing with Elrond, no less!
· I do not think that Gimli is being “practical” when he think Caradhras is independent of Sauron, as Pryderi did. Rather, I would suggest that the “cruel Caradhras” is a major player in dwarvish folklore, at least since they fled Moria. Perhaps I won’t go as far as Beren IV did, and name the Balrog as responsible for the storm; but Gimli surely connected any misfortunes which might happen to elves and/or dwarves on the cruel mountain with the mysterious Durin’s Bane.
· And about Legolas – don’t you think it’s wierd that the High-elves are not represented? Legolas names himself of silvan folk (although later Tolkien took pains to explain that he was actually of Sindarin stock), and in The Hobbit the woodland elves are said to be less wise and powerful than their brethen; Legolas does seem to be out of place in Eregion. What do you make of this?
The last “character” which should be mention is Caradhras itself. Do you think it is mere nature, Sauron, or is the mountain itself evil? I an one of the “deliberate ambiguity” greatest fans, but it is noteworthy that the last sentence of the chapter is “Caradhras has defeated them”.
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 2 2010, 10:32am
Post #9 of 15
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...that is my motto." (Treebeard)
Isn't speed of the essence?
Well, it may seem like that to us, but maybe not to the Elves, whose view of time is quite different. After the ages they've already delayed dealing with the Ring, it's probably not likely that they're going to jump into unconsidered action now.
Since, as Elizabeth points out, it's at Rivendell and Lothlorien that the delays happen, perhaps we can even wonder whether at some level the Elves are delaying the Quest as much as they reasonably can, knowing as they do what will be the eventual outcome for their own realms. They aren't prepared to hinder the Quest in any way - in fact according to their own wisdom they are doing everything they can to help it. But letting things happen in their own time rather than rushing to take apparently better opportunities suits the long Elvish view of the world, perhaps.
(The Elves and Ents share this long view of time, and although we see the hobbits' exasperation with the slowness of the Ents, they and the rest of the Fellowship seem to accept the Elves' deliberate slowness without question. Of course, in Lorien they only find out how long they've been been there after they've left. But in Rivendell they seem content to rely on the wisdom of Elrond.)
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 2 2010, 1:19pm
Post #10 of 15
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Hope you don't mind if I add my thoughts about one or two of your thoughts...
The second sequence describes the return of the scouts, and their reports. It is ended with a summing-up by Gandalf – said to whom? Since the reports refer to the strange country beyond the Silverlode, we can suppose it is to a hobbit, and Frodo would be the most natural audience. This is followed by the scene in which Elrond summons the hobbits to decide who will go with the Fellowship. Surprisingly, Gandalf and Aragorn also speak – what are they doing here? Are they hobbits?
I assume you don't like my suggestion that these reports are given in the hearing of everyone, including the hobbits? I kind of like to imagine Rivendell having the kind of communal living that was common in the Middle Ages, where everything goes on in one big room. So the reports would have been given to Elrond in public, and heard by everyone who was interested enough to listen in - including Frodo no doubt. When Elrond "summons" the hobbits, he just calls them over to his chair where the discussion is centred. Which is why Gandalf, Aragorn and everyone else appears to be present at the meeting, and able to speak up at the appropriate times. And is also why the scene fits nicely into the "Red Book conceit" - the reports are told objectively in the third person, but could certainly be based on the writings of Frodo who would have been present (and, as you say, might have described Elladan and Elrohir's destination just as an unknown "strange country" - he couldn't know any more because they gave their report in private, and indeed we are not told any more about it either.)
Someone is describing the members of the Fellowship – “Aragorn sat with his head bowed to his knees; only Elrond knew fully what this hour meant to him”. Is this Frodo writing with hindsight, or must we admit to an omniscient narrator?
I vote for hindsight - this is of course hinting at the story of Aragorn and Arwen that's hidden in the appendices, which Frodo had no way of knowing about at this time. He would have known, of course, by the time he wrote the Red Book. Although maybe we can imagine that Frodo also sensed Elrond's understanding of (and sympathy with?) Aragorn's feelings right from this moment, even if he only found the answer to the riddle much later.
...at the end of this scene, we get two complementary prespectives – “At last they turned away and faded silently into the dusk”, but “Then with one glance at the Last Homely House twinkling below them they strode away far into the night”. Apparantly the narrator can walk with the Company, and also watch them fade away from Rivendell.
Hmmm. Who is "they" in the first sentence? Here's the whole paragraph:
"Many others of Elrond’s household stood in the shadows and watched them go, bidding them farewell with soft voices. There was no laughter, and no song or music. At last they turned away and faded silently into the dusk."
That sounds to me as if it's the Elves who turn and fade away. The narrator is with the Company both here and in the next paragraph where "they" does indeed refer to the members of the Company. Ambiguous phraseology, but I think it makes more sense to imagine it's not the Company but the Elves who've come to see them off who eventually turn away, and fade into the darkness as Elves are wont to do. (And the Company doesn't need to "turn", they are already headed out...)
The chapter begins with Pippin. As Pryderi noted, Pippin does come across as immature – calling Sam’s being sent with Frodo “a reward”...
Pippin's words might be unsophisticated, but he's making a sensible point, I believe, as Merry is careful to explain to Frodo in his own more logical way right afterwards: "...we are envying Sam, not you. If you have to go, then it will be a punishment for any of us to be left behind, even in Rivendell." The hobbits are expressing an important psychological truth - that their sense of friendship and honour will be hurt if they are forced to abandon Frodo. How will they live with themselves if they let him go into danger while they stay behind in safety? Tolkien would have known this sense of cameraderie at first hand in WWI, and it harks back to A Conspiracy Unmasked, as well as forward to The Breaking of the Fellowship.
In short, Sam is revealed as an irrepressible cynic. Will this help him later? Is this a trait often associated with members of the domestic servants caste?
Well, he's a realist, maybe. He deflates the mystical stuff with thoughts of the practical. I guess it helps him on one level, since he's the one who has to keep his eye on the practical - right from the time in the Old Forest he's been the one to keep his head when Frodo goes off into one of his trances. But Sam has his mystical moments too, as we know. Sam loves stories, and he loves Elves, but he doesn't let that stop him from keeping one eye on the everyday world too.
Sam is the only member of the Fellowship who really wasn’t asked; He was basically picked as a ‘reward’ for his cheek to his betters, just like he was by Gandalf at the end of The Shadow of the Past – that idiot Pippin really does not understand what Sam is going through!
No, Pippin understands all right - but he's the only one who's idiot enough to put Sam's true feelings into words! Of course Sam wanted to go with Frodo, as Pippin quite rightly understood. Sam's "punishments" that are really "rewards" (both Elrond's at the Council and Gandalf's earlier) are a direct parallel with the "punishment" of Beregond, who is "exiled" to the one place he really wants to be. And the mirror-image of Theoden's "reward" to Wormtongue of allowing him to accompany him to war. Pippin's not as dumb as he seems, and in LotR you ignore the "wisdom of fools" at your peril...
They went in, and Sam shut the door.
But even as he did so, he heard suddenly,
deep and unstilled,
the sigh and murmur of the Sea upon the shores of Middle-earth.
From the unpublished Epilogue to the Lord of the Rings
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PhantomS
Nargothrond
Nov 3 2010, 2:24am
Post #11 of 15
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Between the messenger arriving and the end of the year there's a lot of new developments Sauron has heard; someone bothered the Balrog, Saruman has entered the game, Gollum is out there, the Sword of Elendil has been revealed to him, he's lost a Palantir to its owner, "Baggins" isn't the same one he was looking for earlier etc.
It's no surprise that the next thing we hear of the North is an Easterling invasion- Sauron has given up guile and gone for the throat. No more messengers, bribes or enticements- he's going to display his might. Gandalf arriving at Minas Tirith plus Aragorn wresting the Palantir are what has probably riled him.
In short, there was no messenger to reply to by the end of the year.
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Nov 3 2010, 7:33am
Post #12 of 15
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C'mon, none of that had happened by the end of 3018 -- the Fellowship didn't even get to Hollin till Jan. 8. The most Sauron could possibly know is that there's another Baggins afoot, assuming the Nine have straggled home by then.
Sign up now in the Reading Room to lead a chapter discussion of LotR Book II!
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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PhantomS
Nargothrond
Nov 3 2010, 2:28pm
Post #13 of 15
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should check the timelines more often ;(
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in any case Sauron knew quite a few things had changed, since the Nazgul had chased someone to Rivendell and stabbed the wearer of the Ring on Amon Sul. This someone was apparently enough to warrant intervention from Elrond and Gandalf. The Dwarves seemed to be the only people he sent messengers to apart from Dol Guldur (presumably) and Isengard; he was openly attacking Gondor and harrassing Rohan. One could tell he was not using diplomacy or enticement any more by this stage. The messenger thing was probably a way to pry information from Dain- Sauron would attack anyway, and Dain knew that.
I can't imagine a messenger riding back south and shaking a fist "you'll be soooorrryyyy!!".
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CuriousG
Gondolin
Nov 5 2010, 2:43pm
Post #14 of 15
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Modern vs. Medieval views of time
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As I've also said, I think the long delay in Rivendell before continuing the Quest doesn't make sense and is an egregious strategic mistake.
But to at least consider another perspective, are we projecting contemporary views of time and urgency onto the story? Didn't things move more slowly in the Middle Ages? In our time, if there's a need to do something at a distance, you jump on a plane and are there in a day or two. And the news is on TV instantly, etc., not brought in by scouts on horseback after long treks. Maybe in the Middle Ages people just expected everything to take longer and based their plans on that view of time.
A weak defense of Tolkien that I don't entirely buy myself, but it's possibly what he was thinking, in addition to having all the dates align with the significant ones he had chosen.
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noWizardme
Gondolin
Dec 5 2012, 4:04pm
Post #15 of 15
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Slow-burn tension and ambiguity
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I’ve come rather late to this discussion, obviously! Many thanks to the contributors so far – reading these reading room threads is greatly adding to my enjoyment of the book.
May I add a couple of thoughts? Once we do finally get out of Rivendell, we have a chapter which I think makes heavy use of slow pace and ambiguity.(What do you think?)
Firstly, I’m thinking about the effect of the Fellowship plodding across a featureless, cold landscape. It’s a bit risky as a literary device , because the reader could just find it boring (I confess to having skipped this chapter in some of my readings of the book). But if it works, I think the reader gets two things – firstly a rising sense of tension (as Pryderi commented in the introduction to Part 1 of this discussion), and secondly a sense of the solidity and scale of the landscape.
I notice JRRT is careful to describe the physical sensations of the hobbits – the discomfort of the incessant wind; the privation of travelling secretly and not lighting fires; the glorious sunrise that greets their entrance into Hollin. I think this makes it much more real for us than if he merely said “they travelled for several days across a featureless moor”. I notice how the description of the landscape and weather differs from the treatment of the Shire, in Three’s Company. We are on a much bigger scale here – North America or South Africa as opposed to the Home Counties of England. (Thinking of South Africa, I know JRRT was born there – I wonder whether any of his experiences there might have informed his literary landscapes? Or perhaps he arrived in England when he was too young?) I think the bigger scale makes Middle-earth seem more solid and monumental.
As far as deliberately going slow to rack up the tension, JRRT does this on other occasions too. I’m thinking of the journey between Bree and Rivendell, especially the part of it after Weathertop. Frodo and party plod wearily along in a huge landscape. The whole thing takes on a nightmarish character: They move so slowly. They get lost. After Weathertop, distance itself works against them – will they make it to Rivendell in time? In all this where are their pursuers? In between Weathertop and the Ford, we get glimpses and hear them calling but, like a nightmare, that somehow makes it worse than if we met them again. That section of the book contrasts a lot with Peter Jackson’s film, in which we have to stick with the action nearly all the time. One can imagine long gaps between the highlights shown in the film, but nothing forces the viewer to do this. So you could view the film as if the party reaches Bree later in the night on which they escape over the ferry, and then there’s one night for the camp with Strider’s song, one night for the attack on Weathertop and then an immediate equestrian rescue. Personally I like both the book and film handling – I think it’s interesting what different effects they have on me.
We get more tension-cranking plodding along later in the book too. I’m thinking of Merry and Pippin’s abduction by orcs, and then Frodo and Sam wearily dragging themselves across Mordor. There are probably other examples.
Later in the chapter, the Fellowship starts to face more active, sentient opposition (as opposed to the passive hazard posed by the physical journey itself). I just wanted to note a point about literary effect here – JRRT, in my view, works really hard to keep this ambiguous. You’ve already discussed in detail the question of who (if anyone) has silenced the birds and sent the crows and hawks. And also who or what causes the freak weather on the Redhorn Gate. For the crows, we start with:
Aragorn: "I do not know what they are about: possibly there is some trouble away south from which they are fleeing; but I think they are spying out the land…”
The conviction slowly builds on the Fellowship (and on us, the readers) that they are someone’s spies. Then right at the end of the chapter, Gandalf introduces doubt again
“Whether they are good or evil, or have nothing to do with us at all, we must go down at once.”
As for the snowstorm, Gandalf does not dismiss the idea that Sauron might have the power to cause it (“His arm has grown long”). But then he also says :
“There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but have purposes of their own. Some have been in this world longer than he.”
I’ve always read this as ruling out the (two-legged) Saruman, who may also not have “been in this world longer” than Sauron (scholars of the First Age probably know about their respective ages). Maybe it’s Caradhras. Gimli, of course, repeatedly says things that show he regards Caradhras as a hostile personality.
“It matters little who is the enemy, if we cannot beat off his attack,” says Gandalf.
This is both pragmatically true, but also a good way of truncating the conversation and leaving things vague once more. I think it just doesn't suit JRRT for us to work it out. The ambiguity is a nice device to add to the tension: who are the enemies, and how will they next attack? Once again, the idea that there are other things “that have purposes of their own” and are older adds to the solidity of Middle-earth – it doesn't all pop into existence in any way the author requires it: it has its own backstory. I see the same device as carrying on in the next chapter [spoiler alert – any readers of this who haven’t ever read the next chapter of Lord of the Rings might want to skip the rest of my paragraph!]. The Fellowship is attacked by wargs, but the wargs’ dead bodies have vanished in the morning (there is a detailed discussion in that Reading Room thread about whether these are werewolves and whether that means they are agents of Sauron). Something in the lake outside Moria tries to nab Frodo, and we’re left uncertain whether it grabbed Frodo by co-incidence or design (is it after the Ring, either as an agent of Sauron or Saruman, or for itself? Or was it just a predatory creature hunting for food?)
A further possibility (which you have already discussed somewhat) is that the snowstorm is an intervention of a helpful power. Perhaps the route through Moria is the only viable one to escape detection (as Gandalf says a couple of times he has believed all along). [Spoiler alert again– any readers of this who haven’t ever read the next chapter of Lord of the Rings might want to skip the rest of my paragraph!]. Certainly the trip to Moria is important to the plot. We need accidently to rescue Gollum, who is stuck there safely out of the view of the Nazgul, but crucially needed by the Fellowship later in the story. We also need Gandalf’s self-sacrificing death and resurrection as Gandalf the White. The idea that the most desperate-looking option will turn out to be the right one comes up elsewhere in the story. Another thought I have is that we are seeing here an early example of Theoden’s proverb “Oft evil will shall evil mar”. Certainly the way the various “evil” characters – e.g. Saruman, Gollum, Wormtongue and Shelob - sometimes aid and sometimes thwart Sauron and each other is an important theme and plot element later on.
All this ambiguity is perhaps a risky literary device – for some readers it adds solidity and tension, but if it miscarries, readers will get confused. The Peter Jackson film abandons all this ambiguity – Saruman sent the crows and the snowstorm. Then there is a scene in which Saruman reads a book about Moria and wonders whether Gandalf will dare to go there. The book scene primes the viewers of the film that Moria will be dangerous, so building up the tension for the next section. But what do you think of Saruman’s motivation in the film at this point? I suppose he’d ideally like to drive the Fellowship to travel to the Gap of Rohan, where he can more easily intercept them. In the book, this route is one Gandalf specifically dismisses for that reason. But isn’t it rather risky for Saruman if the Fellowship does try the Moria route? Unless he has agents there, he may lose track of them, or see the Ring lost or captured by another power.
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