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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jan 7 2008, 1:51am
Post #1 of 24
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**Strider** Introduction: Current events in Bree
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Welcome back to chapter discussions! Hope you all had wonderful holidays!
I live in Hawaii, just about the last time zone in the world... it's long since tomorrow in New Zealand, and many hours ago in most of N. America. So I'm starting my discussion Sunday Evening, and will mostly post afternoons or evenings my time.
For this week's discussion, in addition to our primary source I'm using:
* Appendix B from Return of the King, abbreviated hereafter as AppB;
* The Lord of the Rings, a Reader's Companion, by Wayne G. Hammond and Christina Scull, abbreviated H&S;
* The Return of the Shadow (HoME v. 6), by J. R. R. T. edited by Christopher Tolkien, abbreviated RotS.
Before launching into the chapter proper, I want to take a few minutes to summarize the state of things here in Bree and with our heroes, just to get us back in the groove.
Bree is a multi-racial, multi-cultural crossroads, much like Hawaii, with both Men and Hobbits as residents, and travelers from other places in Middle Earth. The latter include not only Men and Hobbits (although Hobbits don't travel very much) but also Dwarves and even occasional Elves.
In the last chapter we heard of strangers (Men) coming up the Greenway; one particularly ill-favored individual says more will be coming, and sounds rather threatening about it. Although some of these are doubtless refugees from "troubles" in the South, some may also be the folks that we'll later see as "ruffians" affiliated with Saruman.
1. What "troubles" are the refugees fleeing? Are these the same "troubles" that sent Gandalf away in such a hurry?
The most threatening strangers are the Black Riders: Monday one came down the Greenway, later another up from the south. The gate keeper is suspicious; inquiries have been made. Actually, in early drafts, the gate keeper was possibly allied with the Enemy; in some drafts the Riders had offered a reward for anyone sighting the hobbits. Some of this survives in LotR drafts prior to 2004, according to H&S, where he was described as leaving with Ferny, the squint-eyed Southerner and others.
2. In Bree, the Riders are described throughout this chapter as "black men". Could Tolkien, writing in a time and place where racial sensitivity was far less of an issue than it is today, intend them to be black skinned as well as cloaked in black and on black horses?
Lets look at a little chronology, from the Tale of Years (AppB). Keep this in mind over the next few chapters.
It is now September 29, the year 3018 of the Third Age, or 1418 by the Shire calendar:
* The hobbits left the Shire on Sept. 23, but have already had numerous adventures, including being pursued by Black Riders.
* Gandalf, who was imprisoned in Orthanc from July 10 to Sept. 18, is desperately trying to connect to Frodo. He first went to Edoras, but was refused admission, being told to "take any horse". He pursued his choice, Shadowfax, for several days, until he tamed him on Sept. 23, then set out at top speed for the Shire. He is visiting the Gaffer this very evening.
* The Black Riders crossed Sarn Ford on the 22nd, and drove off a guard of Rangers. The next day, the day of the Birthday and Frodo setting out, four Riders entered the Shire, and one actually arrived in Hobbiton that night. The others pursued the Riders eastword, then returned to watch the Greenway.
Having arrived in Bree, the hobbits relaxed a little, and enjoyed the conviviality of the Pony, until Frodo caused a ruckus by reciting his poem and then (accidentally?) putting on the Ring and disappearing. A mysterious stranger, said to be a Ranger called 'Strider', has approached Frodo, and asked for a "quiet word". He seems to know an uncomfortable lot about Frodo and his disappearance.
In this chapter, we're going to learn quite a lot more about this mysterious stranger. I believe we've already heard that Tolkien originally conceived of him as a "wild hobbit" named Trotter. If you want to know more about his literary development, there's a good discussion here.
3. Any other comments on the state of things at this point?
"Are you frightened?"
Discussing "Strider" Jan. 6-11 in the Reading Room
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 7 2008, 2:41am
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And we're off. Or on. Great start, Elizabeth!
The hobbits left the Shire on Sept. 23
They left Hobbiton late on Sep. 23, but didn't leave the Shire until the morning of the 26th.
Thanks for the wikipedia link. I didn't know New Line had been considering Jason Patric for the role of Aragorn, in the event Mortensen wasn't available. I think I mentioned once before that when I saw Patric in Geronimo in 1993, I thought: this guy could play Aragorn.
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 7 2008, 3:26am
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1. What "troubles" are the refugees fleeing?
The refugees flee the troubles caused by Saruman, although few may realize Saruman's role in the troubles. I'm guessing the refugees are mostly Dunlendings who aren't happy about going to war with Rohan, especially in alliance with armies of orcs. Some may also be Rohirrim, but those refugees would be more likely to flee south and west into Rohan rather than north and east towards Bree. And as you note, some of the "refugees" are in fact ruffians and half-orcs employed by Saruman, although the particular Southerner who helps Ferny and the Nazgul has been co-opted by the Nazgul, as described in Unfinished Tales.
Are these the same "troubles" that sent Gandalf away in such a hurry?
No, at the time Gandalf was unaware that Saruman was causing trouble. Gandalf left because of the news of the Nazgul, and went to consult with Saruman, unaware of his treachery.
2. In Bree, the Riders are described throughout this chapter as "black men". Could Tolkien, writing in a time and place where racial sensitivity was far less of an issue than it is today, intend them to be black skinned as well as cloaked in black and on black horses?
When the Witch-king reveals himself in Gondor, throwing back his hood, his body is invisible. So no, I don't think Tolkien was referring to black skin. But since only blackness is seen under the hoods of the Nazgul, people might assume that they have black skin.
3. Any other comments on the state of things at this point?
No.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Jan 7 2008, 5:12am
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'Been more than a little distracted
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1. What "troubles" are the refugees fleeing? Are these the same "troubles" that sent Gandalf away in such a hurry?
Related, at least. The south of Middle Earth is fighting the lead-ins to what could be described as a world war. Some of these ruffians are agents of Saruman, and they may be lying about going north on their own accord, but nonetheless, there is trouble to the south.
2. In Bree, the Riders are described throughout this chapter as "black men". Could Tolkien, writing in a time and place where racial sensitivity was far less of an issue than it is today, intend them to be black skinned as well as cloaked in black and on black horses?
No. We've already encountered the Riders, and know that their features are not possible to distinguish under their black robes. Later, we will discover that they are in fact entirely invisible, and the black robes are all they have to their appearance!
3. Any other comments on the state of things at this point?
No, apart from the fact that at this stage in the book I really didn't know what Strider was, not even what race he was!
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jan 7 2008, 5:37am
Post #5 of 24
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Thanks. A better statement of the situation
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might be that the Frodo & co. left Hobbiton on the 23rd, and were engaged in evading Black Riders for the next several days, until getting well into the Old Forest.
I do like backing out now and then to look at the big picture.
"Are you frightened?"
Discussing "Strider" Jan. 6-11 in the Reading Room
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Radhruin
Nargothrond
Jan 7 2008, 5:49am
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1. What "troubles" are the refugees fleeing? Are these the same "troubles" that sent Gandalf away in such a hurry?
I have always assumed that they were fleeing Saruman's handiwork, as in agricultural interference. I don't think Gandalf knew anything about Saruman's nastiness at this point. I suppose the interference didn't just involve pipeweed trade at this point.
2. In Bree, the Riders are described throughout this chapter as "black men". Could Tolkien, writing in a time and place where racial sensitivity was far less of an issue than it is today, intend them to be black skinned as well as cloaked in black and on black horses?
Frankly? No. I never took it that way. I always took "black" as being "bad". Not "black skinned". Did the riders even have any visible skin to be seen?
3. Any other comments on the state of things at this point?
I've always been curious about Butterbur. How was it that with the Rangers, and Gandalf (and possibly elves) passing to and fro through his village, that he would "forget" the importance of Gandalf's letter? If he was that absent-minded, it was a wonder he kept an inn on its feet.
"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it."
~Chesterton
(This post was edited by Radhruin on Jan 7 2008, 5:58am)
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Cactus Wren
Lindon
Jan 7 2008, 11:33am
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2. In Bree, the Riders are described throughout this chapter as "black men". Could Tolkien, writing in a time and place where racial sensitivity was far less of an issue than it is today, intend them to be black skinned as well as cloaked in black and on black horses?
Frankly? No. I never took it that way. I always took "black" as being "bad". Not "black skinned". Did the riders even have any visible skin to be seen? No, but then the Bree-folk might have interpreted invisibility as blackness. Remember the scene in Wells's Invisible Man when the title character is attacked by dogs? His clothes are torn, and a bystander thinks exactly this: "This chap you're speaking of, what my dog bit. Well -- he's black. Leastways, his legs are. I seed through the tear of his trousers and the tear of his glove. You'd have expected a sort of pinky to show, wouldn't you? Well -- there wasn't none. just blackness. I tell you, he's as black as my hat." An observer, looking into a Rider's hood and seeing only darkness, would be far more likely to interpret the sight as a dark face than as no face at all.
(Am I the only person who still wants to scoop up Sean Bean's voice and lick it off a spoon like chocolate sauce?)
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a.s.
Doriath
Jan 7 2008, 11:43am
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the Bree-folk might have interpreted invisibility as blackness. Remember the scene in Wells's Invisible Man when the title character is attacked by dogs? His clothes are torn, and a bystander thinks exactly this: "This chap you're speaking of, what my dog bit. Well -- he's black. Leastways, his legs are. I seed through the tear of his trousers and the tear of his glove. You'd have expected a sort of pinky to show, wouldn't you? Well -- there wasn't none. just blackness. I tell you, he's as black as my hat." An observer, looking into a Rider's hood and seeing only darkness, would be far more likely to interpret the sight as a dark face than as no face at all.
As others have said, I always took the reference to be a reference to their black cloaks (or did after the first reading, when I found out they were invisible inside their cloaks) and not to their skin color.
Your comparison to The Invisible Man is very apt, I think! It makes sense that a "nothingness" set against a black cloak would appear black, too, or at least be interpreted that way by a viewer.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
"And we must all bring Provisions."
"Bring what ?"
"Things to eat."
"Oh!" said Pooh happily. "I thought you said Provisions.
I'll go and tell them." And he stumped off.
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sador
Gondolin
Jan 7 2008, 12:50pm
Post #9 of 24
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And I do remember your having invited me to join this discussion, on a previous post.
Anyway:
1. What "troubles" are the refugees fleeing? Are these the same "troubles" that sent Gandalf away in such a hurry?
In "The Council of Elrond", Gandalf says: "...I found nothing save a few fugitives from the South; yet it seemed to me that on them sat a fear of which they would not speak". These fugitives fled very far, and I think our fugitives might be the last trcikle of people who escaped from the war. They could also be people who have left, terrorised by the Riders as they passed on their way to the Shire. And of course, they might be Dunlendings - but in that case, I suspect the whole family would be on the move, and as far as I remember, there is no hint of women in the Bree chapters.
2. In Bree, the Riders are described throughout this chapter as "black men". Could Tolkien, writing in a time and place where racial sensitivity was far less of an issue than it is today, intend them to be black skinned as well as cloaked in black and on black horses?
As someone commented before, someone invisible might seem black. This reminds me of Michael Ende's The Neverending Story, in which he described the nothingness as a place which when you look at, you feel as if you've been blinded.
By the way, if you think Jackson butchered LOTR - don't go to see the movie made of that book.
3. Any other comments on the state of things at this point?
You forgot good old Fatty Bolger holding the fort at Crickhollow!
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a.s.
Doriath
Jan 7 2008, 1:35pm
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"an seileachan"
"And we must all bring Provisions."
"Bring what ?"
"Things to eat."
"Oh!" said Pooh happily. "I thought you said Provisions.
I'll go and tell them." And he stumped off.
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jan 7 2008, 3:01pm
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because he had heard from Aragorn that he had captured Gollum. Maybe I'm confusing the movie with the book, but didn't Saruman tell Gandalf that the Nine had crossed the river?
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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Curious
Gondolin
Jan 7 2008, 3:45pm
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Radagast conveyed that message from Saruman, yes.
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didn't Saruman tell Gandalf that the Nine had crossed the river?
Radagast conveyed that message from Saruman to Gandalf. But the refugees in Bree are not fleeing from the Nine, but from Saruman or his minions. Radagast knew nothing of that, nor did Gandalf, or Gandalf would never have gone to visit Saruman after receiving Saruman's message.
Indeed I would guess that these are the very first of the refugees from the south to reach Bree, and that their departure from the south coincides with Gandalf's capture a few months earlier. Before Gandalf's capture Saruman had not released his armies, and still played the part of a good wizard (although his Dunlending / half-orc / Uruk-hai breeding program must have started long ago in secret). After Gandalf's capture Saruman began to wage war on Rohan with an army of Dunlendings, half-orcs, and orcs.
As for Aragorn capturing Gollum, that happened long before Gandalf returned to the Shire.
(This post was edited by Curious on Jan 7 2008, 3:54pm)
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Radhruin
Nargothrond
Jan 7 2008, 5:04pm
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I've never thought of it that way.
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I can understand how someone looking into the Rider's hood would see darkness. However, if the Rider were fully uncloaked, I can't seem to imagine his invisibility as being black, or darkness. I suppose that's just me though! Interesting idea.
"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it."
~Chesterton
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jan 7 2008, 5:45pm
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Little LEDs and tiny batteries in the stems. Christmas special for my grandkids!
"Are you frightened?"
Discussing "Strider" Jan. 6-11 in the Reading Room
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 7 2008, 8:03pm
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That's what Wells realized, and CW remembered. You're right: when they are uncloaked, their invisibility would not be taken as blackness.
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SilentLion
Ossiriand
Jan 7 2008, 10:49pm
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Refugees from the South - Is Bree the Casablanca of Middle Earth?
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1. What "troubles" are the refugees fleeing? Are these the same "troubles" that sent Gandalf away in such a hurry?
The information that sent Gandalf speeding to Isengard was the message from Radagast that the Nazgul were abroad. While that may have been crucial to Gandalf, I think the refugees problems would have been longer term and more general in nature. A number of things would have been happening in and around Dunland in the preceeding years that would have made it an unpleasant place to live:
1) The orcs and wargs of the Misty Mountains were growing in number again, especially in and around Moria. They may have made some incursions into inhabited areas of Dunland (perhaps with the encouragement or support of Saruman).
2) Saruman had been breeding the Uruk-hai, and the humans involved probably came from Dunland. Indeed some of the half-orcs who could pass as human seem to have intermixed into some of the groups of Dunlendings. Though the Wise don't seem to know about the Uruk-Hai yet, there must have been some among the Dunlendings who knew or suspected what was going on. If a Dunlander objected to this on moral grounds, the easiest thing to do might be to leave, although it's the kind of dark secret that one might not want to advertise to one's hosts, so they may have only referred to vague 'troubles'.
3) The Dunlendings were more a group of clans or tribes than a cohesive nation like Gondor or Rohan. Although their was some historic emnity towards Rohan, I imagine the support for war with Rohan varied between various goups. Saruman probably had agents circulating among the Dunlendings to stir up hostility. Those agents might have been instigating skirmishes with the Rohirrim that would have unified sentiment against Rohan. They also might have used violence and intimidation against Dunlendings who just wanted to leave in peace. The victims of that treatment may have headed north on the Greenway as refugees.
Like modern dictators, Saruman used the northward flow of refugees northward to his advantages, infiltrating his own agents among them. However, I visualize most of the Dunlendings who migrated northward as genuine refugeess, trying to escape the dislocations of the coming war. Of all the groups of men that sided with the bad guys in the War of the Ring, the Dunlendings are probably the easiest to visualize as basically good people who were victims of their circumstances. They may well have been descendents of law-abiding citizens of Arnor. Their ancestors must have felt slighted when newcomers from the north were given the fertile plans of Rohan by Gondor. Once Elessar came to power, they made peace with Gondor and Rohan fairly quickly and integrated back into the united kingdom.
(This post was edited by SilentLion on Jan 7 2008, 10:52pm)
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jan 7 2008, 11:10pm
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...is a good analogy to the Pony. The denizens of Rick's bar were mostly male adventure seekers, either French refugees or folks from other lands capitalizing on the troubles in Europe.
As sador says in a post above, most refugees tend to be whole families fleeing together. Although the various mentions of refugees don't really say they were all men, I would think that the discussion would have a somewhat different flavor if we were seeing a general migration rather than isolated adventurers, which is what these sound like.
"Are you frightened?"
Discussing "Strider" Jan. 6-11 in the Reading Room
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 8 2008, 9:56pm
Post #18 of 24
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1. What "troubles" are the refugees fleeing?
They’re probably draft dodgers from Isengard. (Which means Bree-land is Canada.) And if the “breeding pits of Orthanc” theory is correct, I don’t blame them one teensy weensy little bit.
Are these the same "troubles" that sent Gandalf away in such a hurry?
Except Gandalf went south looking for help, not trouble.
2. In Bree, the Riders are described throughout this chapter as "black men". Could Tolkien, writing in a time and place where racial sensitivity was far less of an issue than it is today, intend them to be black skinned as well as cloaked in black and on black horses?
I always thought so. Evil Black Priests are pretty much the standard in pulp fantasy. Sauron is supposedly black (“Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,' said Gollum.). Then again, is the Black Gate really black? Is the Black Land black? And how can speech be black? Then again, the Nazgul are described as Black Men on Black Steeds. So if the horses are black, then so are the Nazgul unless we assume someone is mixing their metaphors. If the black of the men is merely figurative then the black of the steeds must be too. So what color are the Nazgul's horses? And what about the Black Numenoreans? Like I said, just assuming that the Nazgul are black saves me a lot of headaches.
3. Any other comments on the state of things at this point?
I'm trying not to think too hard.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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SilentLion
Ossiriand
Jan 8 2008, 10:04pm
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It's true that the there aren't many women depicted at the Prancing Pony. As we know, this is a trend throughout LOTR and perhaps Tolkien's writing in general (although the posthumously published stories of The Mariner's Wife, and the Debate of Finrod and Andreth offer some really insightful glimpses into bittersweet relationships). However, as you and sador have pointed out, the absence of women is harder to explain here among refugees.
Perhaps it is just not the custom of women in Tolkien's world to go to the common room of taverns like The Prancing Pony in the evening. We know there are women among the Bree-folk, big and little. They are not present either. Among the dwarves, we might not recognize the females anyway. So maybe if the refugees have ventured out to the tavern to learn news, the women and children are safely back in their rooms within the Inn or whereever their camp may be.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 8 2008, 10:23pm
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"In their white faces burned keen and merciless eyes; under their mantles were long grey robes; upon their grey hairs were helms of silver; in their haggard hands were swords of steel."
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 8 2008, 10:40pm
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I'd think pale faces peeking out of contrasting black cowls would be very noticible. So maybe the pale kings used burnt cork to blacken their faces like Navy SEALS or Green Berets?
So the answer is, yes, they were black, but they weren't Black.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Jan 8 2008, 11:53pm
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The view from the spirit world
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is what's described here, isn't it? (I'm away, and don't have my book here). That could be entirely different. But, personally, I'm rather persuaded by the "invisible face under black cowl looks black" theory.
"Are you frightened?"
Discussing "Strider" Jan. 6-11 in the Reading Room
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Jan 9 2008, 12:00am
Post #23 of 24
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If their eyeballs are invisible that explains their terrible vision.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Jan 15 2008, 11:50pm
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The refugees that Gandalf found at Sarn Ford.
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Where did they come from? Not from Saruman's armies, which as Curious notes cannot have begun their assault, before Gandalf's arrival at Isengard. Had they travelled all the way from Anorien and Rohan, where the Ringwraiths had passed going north, after Sauron's assault on Osgiliath? Were they turned away from shelter in their homelands?
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Nice to see the mother
[