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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Dec 24 2007, 10:32pm
Post #1 of 22
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"...the spine of the book..."
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The Hobbit is a book of about 300 pages.
A scrrenplay for a 2-hour movie is about 120 pages.
Obviously a good deal of The Hobbit will have to be cut for the screenplay.
In “Which Lie Did I Tell?: More Adventures in the Screen Trade” screenwriter Willaim Goldman (“The Princess Bride”) notes that “good screenwriters have to discover the spine of the story and stick to it”.
What is the “spine” of The Hobbit?
Which parts of the book are obvious cuts?
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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squire
Gondolin
Dec 25 2007, 3:18am
Post #2 of 22
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The growth of Bilbo to immaturity
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The story is about Bilbo, and how he l"had an adventure, and found himself doing and saying things altogether unexpected. He may have lost the neighbors' respect, but he gained -- well, you will see if he gained anything in the end."
None of the rest matters: not Elrond, the dwarves, Gollum, the eagles, Beorn, Lake town, or Smaug. It is not about seeing Middle-earth become real, and it is certainly not a prologue or prequel to The Lord of the Rings. It is about Bilbo's transformation. If we don't believe he is a fatuous boob at the beginning, and a bit of a hero at the end and a poet to boot, the movie isn't worth spit.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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ElanorTX
Dor-Lomin
Dec 25 2007, 7:14am
Post #3 of 22
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"I shall not wholly fail if anything can still grow fair in days to come."
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 25 2007, 8:37am
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We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
We're on hiatus Dec. 24-Jan. 6 for the holidays.
Join us Jan. 7-13 for "Strider".
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squire
Gondolin
Dec 25 2007, 1:44pm
Post #5 of 22
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The paradox is the core of the story
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Bilbo before his adventure is a boob - and also a "respectable grown up". When he returns he has led a warrior band and challenged a dragon and made peace between armies by sacrificing himself. He is no boob, but a hero by anyone's standards. Yet back at home he tends to his own needs no matter what his society expects; he writes stories of adventure and gives money away instead of accumulating it; and he studies poetry and visits the Elves. Never again could the hobbits ask Mr. Baggins a question and know what he would answer before they asked it.
As NEB says, from our point of view he has grown past the hobbits to understand the really important things in life; but to his neighbors it is as if he has become a child. This conflict between our perceptions of what is an adult and what is a child is the theme of The Hobbit. Children get this instinctively without knowing why. This is why it is still enjoyed as a work of literature 70 years after it was written.
As with most great stories, it is not about the adventures (read: special effects) but about what happpens to the character who has the adventures. The film should focus, without stopping for a moment, on Bilbo and how and why his adventures affect his perception of himself and his place in the world. How the script handles this, and who plays Bilbo, and whether the director understands this, is what will make the film a good one.
The adventure scenes only serve to drive this conflict and development, not to tell any other story or give us a chill or a thrill. For instance, the only point of the Gollum scene is not the finding of the Ring, but Bilbo's ability to play out a dangerous hand when he insists that "What have I got in my pocket" counts as a riddle once Gollum agrees to be allowed three guesses. When Bilbo demands to be shown out as a reward or to fight it out with his sword if Gollum refuses, he first shows his guts, alone, without the dwarves or Gandalf. The later addition of his pity for Gollum relates to the subsequently-written Lord of the Rings, but it really comes too early in the story to make sense in terms of Bilbo's development, and should be cut in the film.
Gandalf is quite unimportant in The Hobbit, playing onlly the part of catalyst and commentator. Of all the other characters, I would say only Thorin, Smaug and maybe Bard will have to be written and played at as high a level of acting talent as Bilbo. It is Bilbo's movie and no one else's. That's why the title is The Hobbit.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 25 2007, 3:26pm
Post #6 of 22
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I came to The Hobbit as an adult,
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and the book never really chimed with me. But your reasoning for its continued popularity has finally made me realise why the book is so loved by so many people.
Thanks squire. :)
As NEB says, from our point of view he has grown past the hobbits to understand the really important things in life; but to his neighbors it is as if he has become a child. This conflict between our perceptions of what is an adult and what is a child is the theme of The Hobbit. Children get this instinctively without knowing why. This is why it is still enjoyed as a work of literature 70 years after it was written.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded b*****d with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
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Woodyend
Mithlond
Dec 25 2007, 5:04pm
Post #7 of 22
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Once again, it’s not destination but the journey.
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So who’s journey will it be? Bilbo or the Ring?
The book is very obviously about Bilbo, but we are talking about the movies being in reverse, with The Hobbit being the last, not the first movie. The LOTR was about the ring’s journey.So The Hobbit may take up the back story of it, with Bilbo’s part in finding the ring thrown in.
Now if it’s Bilbo’s journey, it very well could be as someone has already posted about his passage from being a respectable adult to a adventurous teenager.
There and back again a Hobbit's tale.
May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!
~~~~~~~~Gandalf~~~~~~~
Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!
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BallyWhooo
Nevrast
Dec 26 2007, 2:55am
Post #8 of 22
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Just who said 2 hours? Huh? Who? I feel another petition coming on! I would guess The Hobbit movie will be more in line with the Harry Potter movies at around 2:30. The second "prequel" may be as long as 3 hours depending on how much fighting they can insert into it.
As far as cuts, I would suspect that they will be few. I know The Hobbit cartoon ignores Beorn and Out of the Frying Pan Into the Fire, but I think both of those episodes will find there way into the movie. If I was to guess at some cuts, I would think the drunken happy, happy elves from the entrance to Rivendell and possibly the "attacks" on the elves in the forest might be cut or at least truncated. Unless the filmakers are ready to explain why the elves have become so morose in about 60 years time when they have been living for thousands, I can't see how they can show a bunch of silly, happy elves. Of course the only Sylvan elf we see in LOTR is Legolas and we don't know anything about his backstore except that he is a "princeling" per Gimli. So I suppose they could make that brand of elves more true to the book.
The trip to Ravenhill might be cut, too. But you can bet the Battle of Five Armies will be full-on LOTR style imagery and be the action climax par excellence of the film, while Thorin's death will be the Boromir-esque emotion climax of the film. And don't be surprised to see more from Gandalf than in the book. I can't believe they won't start inserting backstory for "Film 2" in The Hobbit film. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Saruman or even Radagast... and even more likely a young-ish Aragorn at Rivendell when Bilbo and co. arrive. We know that The White Council is active during Bilbo's quest of Erebor, but I think they will have to handle that very gently to keep it from overshadowing the story proper... but it'll be in there... I'm sure we'll see Gandalf receiving the key and map from Thrain or Thror (can't remember which)in Dol Guldur as Gandalf is on his mission to find out who is running the place. And my guess is that we may see only that part of the story in The Hobbit, and find out who the baddie really is in Part II.... and whatever will they name that second movie??? Any thoughts on that?
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Compa_Mighty
Dor-Lomin
Dec 26 2007, 4:43am
Post #9 of 22
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Think 6. I would bet Peter Jackson WILL direct and he'll do an extended version of the book, rather than The Hobbit + whatever the second movie they could create.
To me, it will come more like The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. Not only will the book be presented in its entirety, but it will have extra elements. I can think of a prologue showing Smaug's invasion of Erebor, the whole White Council storyline, extended Gollum appearance... things that could be taken out? I believe there won't be a song by the dwarves at Bag End and that Bilbo will manage to escape Thranduil's Halls in some other way than having the Elves get drunk. (due to obvious reasons which are not to be discussed here  ) The journey back will have to be shortened, perhaps eliminating the Sackville-Bagginses sub-plot (for the same climactic reasons the Scouring of the Shire was eliminated). This one won't be eliminated because the subtitle for one the movies will surely be There and Back Again, but it's precisely about Bilbo's journey and him getting back home a different person. Lobelia is absolutely unimportant.
As you see, these changes aren't really transcendent in the story. However, I insist, do expect MAJOR additions.
Let it be heard! We want Jackson for The Hobbit!
Essay winner of the Show us your Hobbit Pride Giveway!
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 26 2007, 5:07am
Post #10 of 22
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No "Far over the Misty Mountains Cold"?
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I believe there won't be a song by the dwarves at Bag End
A shame. They gave it a nice melody in the animated Hobbit.
If you're right about the Hobbit film starting with an invasion of dragon, and not Bilbo, will the "spine" that Darkstone mentions be lost?
The journey back will have to be shortened, perhaps eliminating the Sackville-Bagginses sub-plot (for the same climactic reasons the Scouring of the Shire was eliminated).
The Sackville-Baggins only get a sentence or two in The Hobbit, so it's not really the same. But what about the narrator's point noted by squire: that Bilbo loses his respectability, and that this is the key to the tale? How will that be shown?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
We're on hiatus Dec. 24-Jan. 6 for the holidays.
Join us Jan. 7-13 for "Strider".
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Compa_Mighty
Dor-Lomin
Dec 26 2007, 5:25am
Post #11 of 22
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I would say that several stoylines will be presented and that the movies won't be entirely Bilbo-driven. I've said it before, and I stand by it, that these movies will be enriched, and will try to encompass a greater scoop than just Bilbo's story. The Ring WILL have a greater part in the movie than it had in the books. Expect hints of its actual identity.
I do believe this Hobbit will be half about Bilbo, half about the importance of his journey in the fate of Middle Earth.
If you ask me, the book itself contains a whole lot of Thorin-driven plot, rather than Bilbo-driven.
Personally, I think several things will be treated with as much importance as Bilbo's journey by itself: - The Ring
- The Dwarves
- The White Council and Saruman
- Gollum
As for your last question, there could be several ways... as I tell you, the return to Bag End is vital, but I do not think they will lose storytelling time in the Sackvilles auctioning Bilbo's possessions.
Let it be heard! We want Jackson for The Hobbit!
Essay winner of the Show us your Hobbit Pride Giveway!
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Woodyend
Mithlond
Dec 26 2007, 5:58am
Post #12 of 22
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I wonder if they will try and piggyback on LOTR.
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By that I mean, make The Hobbit more ring driven. My main reason for saying this is M-O-N-E-Y. New Line knows that LOTR made over three billion dollars, and right now they may be strapped for cash, with The Golden Compass crashing and burning. The Hobbit was more of a children’s story and they may think by focusing in on the ring (a sure formula for them) it will appeal to a wider audience. By weaving in Bilbo’s story with that of the ring’s I think you would need two movies to tell this tale.
May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!
~~~~~~~~Gandalf~~~~~~~
Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!
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HUORN
Lindon
Dec 26 2007, 6:35am
Post #13 of 22
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Well said. Very well said.
I think they will cash in and make it a sequel to LOTR above all. They'll get my money but my expectations are low.
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burrahobbit
Nargothrond
Dec 26 2007, 2:42pm
Post #14 of 22
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Would the 'Quest for Erebor' approach, where the story is told from Gandalf's perspective as part of the greater war against Sauron, clash with the original Hobbit story focussing on Bilbo?
I think some of the elements you discuss could be successfully introduced. Learning how Gandalf meets Thorin, more about the Erebor and Smaug backstory and Thorin's sceptical views on Gandalf's choice of burglar Bilbo would be complimentary I think. They relate to Bilbo's character and Thorin's character (who I agree is a key part of the plot and acts as a counterpoint to Bilbo). This could add a bit more interest to the linear story. Similarly the Ridddles in the Dark chapter also relates to Bilbo's development.
The White Council and Dol Guldur stories seem less complimentary. The more we think about the return of Sauron, the more we think about the One Ring, which doesn't come into the themes of The Hobbit. I think these stories would best form part of the 'bridge' film idea. Could Tolkien's timeline be changed even, so that driving the necromancer from Dol Guldur takes place after the battle of the five armies?
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burrahobbit
Nargothrond
Dec 26 2007, 2:58pm
Post #15 of 22
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The Scenes that show Bilbo's transformation
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I agree with squire that the spine of the story is Bilbo's transformation from a stay-at-home bourgeouis hobbit whose horizons don't stretch beyond his next dinner, to a seasoned adventurer- the 'ringwinner, luckwearer and the barrel-rider'.
The key scenes illustrate this change. The trolls scene describe Bilbo plucking up some courage with his first clumsy burgling efforts. Finding the ring and escaping from the goblins prove Bilbo's skill and independence to the dwarves. The dwarves later become dependent on Bilbo when he rescues them from the Elven King. Bilbo's meeting with Smaug has to be included of course, particularly discovering the dragon's weakpoint (can this be communicated to Bard without the rather childish talking song bird?). Finally I think Bilbo betraying Thorin to Bard and the Elven King should be there, showing that Bilbo can make his own moral decisions beyond the dwarves' greed.
I think of The Hobbit as an early sketch in Tolkien's creative development of Middle Earth. Lots of ideas appear in simple form here, to be developed into the richer tapestry of LotR. Beorn's anglo saxon mead halls and horses are rather like Rohan, Mirkwood elves have aspects like Lorien, goblin caves like Moria, spiders like Shelob etc. So the Hobbit film should probably focus on scenes that are distinct from LotR to avoid feeling too similar, like the dwarves and the dragon. I think Beorn may well get the chop, along with Rivendell, and the Mirkwood section shortened. Not sure about the eagles. Will depend a lot on whether there is 1 hobbit film or two.
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Elizabeth
Gondolin
Dec 26 2007, 4:40pm
Post #16 of 22
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And a brilliant pair of posts, too.
Please note that the organization of the movies into "The Hobbit" and a "bridge/prequel" has been mentioned in all the press releases, and was apparently the core of PJ's pitch to the president of MGM that led to the "thaw". So it's fair to assume that this is the project as now planned, although a lot can happen once real development begins.
That organization sounds a lot more workable than a bloated 2-movie "Hobbit" with hefty subplots thrown in. I really agree with squire's concept, and hope that holds for the first film.
Son of Elizabeth in Frodo's tree
March, 2007
Elizabeth is the TORnsib formerly known as 'erather'
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Lily Fairbairn
Gondolin
Dec 26 2007, 4:57pm
Post #17 of 22
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I can't resist playing devil's advocate here
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If we don't believe he is a fatuous boob at the beginning, and a bit of a hero at the end and a poet to boot, the movie isn't worth spit.
Jackson presented virtually all the characters in his LotR movies as "weak" in the beginning and "strong" in the end, showing them learning and growing through their adventures and making difficult choices, just as Bilbo does in The Hobbit. And yet Jackson has been raked over the coals because of this. I'm thinking of his Aragorn in particular, who, some people say (I am not one of them), is a loser or coward or lame at the beginning of the movie but who is transformed during its course.
In other words, Jackson is criticized for showing a character's transformation instead of showing him the same character in the beginning of the movie as he is at the end. Yes, I realize the transformations in LotR are a change from the original text, unlike Bilbo's transformation in The Hobbit, which is in the original text, but....
I'm sure you can explain to me why this isn't the contradictory attitude it appears to be 
* * * * * * *
Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!"
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Compa_Mighty
Dor-Lomin
Dec 26 2007, 5:55pm
Post #18 of 22
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But Jackson is also on the record saying he would like an extended version of The Hobbit.
Here is an excerpt of an interview Jackson gave aintitcoolnews on October 2006: QUINT: And I'm sure they'd love the idea of two HOBBIT films. Twice the box office, more DVDs to sell... PETER JACKSON: I saw that. Yeah, we're supposed to be writing The Lovely Bones, but of course Phil, Fran and I read the thing on the net and spent most of this morning talking about The Hobbit. We think the two film idea is really smart. One of the problems with The Hobbit is that it is a fairly simple kids story, and doesn't really feel like The Lord of the Rings. Tonally I mean. It's always may be a little worried, but with two films that kinda gets easier. It allows for more complexity. At that implied stuff with Gandalf and the White Council and the return of Sauron could be fully explored. That's what we talked about this morning. Taking The Hobbit and combining it with all that intigue about Sauron's rise, and the problems that has for Gandalf. It could be cool. That way, it starts feeling more like The Lord of the Rings and less like this kids book. You could even get into Gollum's sneaking into Mordor and Aragorn protecting The Shire. That's what we'd do. Love to work with Viggo again.
That's what I've been talking about. Press releases can say anything at this point. In the end, both the studio and Jackson will play it safe. (Has anyone actually thought of how Jackson's reputation is at stake here? It would be devastating if the movies turned out to be a flop after all the three rink circus he had going against New Line.)
Phillippa, Fran and Peter will write, Peter will direct, Tintin will be arranged around Jackson's involvement in The Hobbit, there's no Halo movie, Temeraire won't come until after The Hobbit and PJ will only produce District 9, not even executive produce.
Hobbit-wise, do expect the Ring and Thorin's plot having lots of screentime. I'm guessing parallel storylines showing very clearly how Bilbo has got no clue about what he is doing in the greater scope of Middle Earth, and how Thorin doesn't either, having his own personal agenda. I'm thinking some scenes cut in between being quite solemn in The White Council, then back to a more cheery-toned Bilbo story, which has the air of being a simple adventure. Bilbo won't know his part in the fate of Arda, but the viewer will.
It's a matter of time... 2008 and 2009 will hold a lot of surprises for all of us who wait for these movies. These press releases were only the beginning... the LotR model will be echoed as much as they can to ensure success. And worry not... Peter Jackson will not make Lucas's mistake. He will not turn The Hobbit movies into The Phantom Menace (which I personally like) and Attack of the Clones in the eyes of the fans.
Fans have proven far too instrumental in the outcome of these movies. Sloan listened, Shay eultimately listened. Peter Jackson is ever listening to what is said here and many other rumor and fan sites.
Let it be heard! We want Jackson for The Hobbit!
Essay winner of the Show us your Hobbit Pride Giveway!
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fmaximus
Ossiriand
Dec 26 2007, 6:21pm
Post #19 of 22
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I 'm also inclined to believe that since the Hobbit is now PJ's project, his baby if you will, (according to Sloan@MGM) he will find ways to put his other projects on the backburner and make the Hobbit a priority so it will be done right, since like you said, his pride and reputation could be at stake here.
Tin Tin and those other projects don't have the sensetive importance which the Hobbit does.
(This post was edited by fmaximus on Dec 26 2007, 6:22pm)
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Woodyend
Mithlond
Dec 26 2007, 6:23pm
Post #20 of 22
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Thanks for posting this interview.
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It seems to jive with my thoughts on what directions the movies may take.
May your beer be laid under an enchantment of surpassing excellence for seven years!
~~~~~~~~Gandalf~~~~~~~
Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 31 2007, 5:53pm
Post #21 of 22
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Different books, different spines.
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I think you nailed it when you said the "transformations in LotR are a change from the original text".
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
We're on hiatus Dec. 24-Jan. 6 for the holidays.
Join us Jan. 7-13 for "Strider".
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Curious
Gondolin
Jun 4 2009, 5:20pm
Post #22 of 22
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It is Bilbo's book, to be sure. But
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I do see the potential for developing the other characters in The Hobbit more than Tolkien did so -- Tolkien himself developed an ensemble cast in LotR. I think that the other characters could be developed without sacrificing the central theme, especially now that we have two movies. I'm thinking not only of the dwarves and Gandalf, but also of Beorn and Bard and the Elvenking and the Master. You already mentioned Thorin and Smaug. There's also Balin and Bombur and Fili and Kili (who, like Thorin, die in the end) and Dori.
Gandalf may not have a character arc of his own, but he is important as Bilbo's mentor and champion, and I also think he sums up one of the themes of the book that you do not mention, i.e. that Bilbo's tremendous luck is more than just luck, and that he is only an instrument of Providence, albeit one who showed courage and wit in accepting his role and learning to rely on his luck.
Finally, Bilbo became childlike but he did not become childish or immature -- we have discussed this distinction before. What his neighbors mistake for regression is in fact progression to a kind of maturity beyond appearances and respectability. It is a maturity that no longer fears what his neighbors will think. It is not the immaturity of a child, but the maturity of a philosopher or saint or artist or genius, which the world often mistakes for immaturity. The Hobbit appeals to children, but it also appeals to their parents, and was written for them as well.
I have read that Picasso loved to collaborate with his own children until they reached the age of eight, but not after. He said "Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." I think that is the problem Tolkien addresses in The Hobbit.
(This post was edited by Curious on Jun 4 2009, 5:26pm)
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