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drogo
Menegroth
Dec 10 2007, 11:23am
Post #1 of 9
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Fog on the Barrow-downs I. Departure into the Fog
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Welcome to this week’s discussion of “Fog on the Barrow-downs.” Since it is not an especially long chapter, I will be posting approximately 1-2 posts per day from Monday until Friday, and then will have an open discussion. I’ll leave the questions pretty broad in scope, so if you want to explore a tangent, please feel free to spin off related topics. As always, don’t feel obligated to answer all the questions.
We begin with another dream, one of the more prescient dreams in the early part of the Lord of the Rings:
That night they heard no noises. But either in his dreams or out of them, he could not tell which, Frodo heard a sweet singing running in his mind; a song that seemed to come like a pale light behind a grey rain-curtain, and growing stronger to turn the veil all to glass and silver, until at last it was rolled back, and a far green country opened before him under a swift sunrise.
What does this dream vision of the Undying Lands suggest about the effect of Tom’s house upon Frodo? Is he seeing the future? Is that possible in Tolkien’s universe? What is the function of this vision in the narrative of the story, right before his first big “test” at the Barrow-downs
The hobbits then prepare to leave the House of Tom Bombadil, but Frodo suddenly remembers that they have not said farewell to Goldberry. Then they see her on a hill, and they take their leave of her:
Turning back, when they reached the bottom of the green hollow, they saw Goldberry, now small and slender like a sunlit flower against the sky: she was standing still watching them, and her hands were stretched out towards them. As they looked she gave a clear call, and lifting up her hand she turned and vanished behind the hill.
This scene is later echoed in the departure from Lothlorien in which the Fellowship catches its last glimpse of Galadriel. What does this scene suggest about Goldberry, and why does Tolkien put so much emphasis upon these scenes of farewell?
The hobbits then begin their journey, and catch glimpse of the Barrow-downs, the burial mounds of Men that have become dark places following the rise of the Witch-king's kingdom of Angmar earlier in the Third Age. Confident that they have started their journey early, they take their food and sleep, only to discover that they have apparently slept longer than they intended. The fog has engulfed them, trapping them as it were. But they continue to aim for the road and they move on, hoping to reach the north-gate of the Downs.
How effectively does Tolkien set the mood and atmosphere in the Barrow-downs? How does this compare with the Old Forest (and is it too much having another “uncanny” landscape so close to the first one—is it overkill in the beginning of the journey?)
For geography lovers, how easily can you trace the hobbits’ route? Do map books such as Strachey’s and Fonstad’s aid you in visualizing the path, or does Tolkien provide enough clues to follow?
For Appendix lovers, how does the history of the Witch-king's realm and his fight with the Northern Kingdom(s) help us (retroactively) understand the significance of this place, and does the relative lack of information about what the Barrows are and what happened in that land earlier in the age affect the way readers react to the episode? Should Tolkien have included more backstory, or do the few details about what the Barrows are and why they are so sinister help make this a more effective "Gothic" or "ghost story" tale early in the LOTR?
At this point Frodo and his companions become separated, and as Frodo shouts for his companions, he receives a chilling response before he loses consciousness:
"Here!" said a voice, deep and cold, that seemed to come out of the ground. "I am waiting for you!"
This episode and the scenes inside the Barrow that follow are perhaps the most “Lovecraftian” passages in the LOTR. How effective is Tolkien as a writer of the macabre? Does he create tension and anxiety effectively? Again, coming on the heels of Merry and Pippin being swallowed by Old Man Willow, does this scene lose any of its effectiveness?
Tomorrow we will go into the Barrow itself and encounter the Wight another unusual figure in Tolkien’s bestiary.
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a.s.
Doriath
Dec 10 2007, 12:01pm
Post #2 of 9
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Dream. Time. Music. Point of merger.
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About that dream: I left off citing this article during my discussion so as not to impede on your opening discussion, since I knew this dream would come up! For many of us, one of the most bittersweet of all the many wonderful passages in LOTR, since (on re-reading) we know Frodo is seeing Paradise (or, the Blessed Realm). Even the first time we read, when we get to the end we remember that Frodo has seen that curtain of rain like glass before!
Here is an interesting article by Mark Duckworth from Mythlore, Sept 2006, about the role of Bombadil in LOTR. After dismissing the idea that Tom is Eru, the author goes on to discuss how Tom relates to "The One", and how this dream just might "happen" to be given to Frodo in the House of Tom Bombadil:
"...Thomistic thought shares the general medieval understanding, deriving from Greek rationalism, that the whole created order is an explication of the divine mind, an unfolding of God's thought (Oakley 166). Accordingly the created order is full everywhere of the traces of the creator, his glory refracted and reflected here, there and everywhere. As Thomas said in the Summa Theologiae, "Every effect in some degree represents its cause, but diversely" (Prima Pars, 45.7). Tolkien expressed this Thomistic understanding in the Silmarillion where the created order arises through Eru, or Iluvatar, singing in concert with the angelic choir, each of whose members has his own distinctive measure of Eru's mind in order to sing his part. Creation is wholly Iluvatar's work, but the angel host shares in the singing that determines its shape. Singing here precisely means the explication of the divine mind. Tom Bombadil's powerful singing and the constant sing-song in his speech express his closeness to and deep participation in the divine nature. That is why he has an aura of paradise around his person. Time moves around his home in a different measure, where dream and waking merge together. Here the whole field of time past is surveyed in a kaleidoscopic vision. Here too in Tom's home Frodo, on the very morning before he departs, has a dreamy vision in which he glimpses through sounds of a song the true paradise, of which Tom's presence and home is only a sign ... a trace ... a taste.
E]ither in his dreams or out of them, he could not tell which, Frodo heard a sweet singing running in his mind: a song that seemed to come like a pale light behind a grey rain-curtain, and growing stronger to turn the veil all to glass and silver, until at last it was rolled back, and a far green country opened before him under a swift sunrise.
And thus it is intimated to us that Frodo has taken his bearings from the House of Tom Bombadil. For there he sees whither he finally tends. And even though he (and we) cannot see his end until he has reached it, even so this dream of his end haunts the narrative until it comes true"
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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drogo
Menegroth
Dec 10 2007, 4:57pm
Post #3 of 9
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I like the way it sums up the signing and the dream visions that occur in Tom's house.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Dec 10 2007, 4:59pm
Post #4 of 9
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Tolkien is *very* good at this - what are you talking about?
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Tolkien's use of landscape and weather to set the mood of the story and emphasize the magic before it happens are nothing short of phenomenal. It's realistically believable and yet at the same time it is high fantasy. It is possible to interpret that there is no magic at all, all of the way up until the wight's words, but we all just know that isn't the case. It's a much more sophisticated use of magic, and much more powerful, than the sort of "wizard shows up, wizard hurls a fireball" magic that is common in a lot of subsequent fantasy, especially gaming.
That said, the barrow wight does not seem Lovecraftian to me mainly on account of how most of the stories I have read of Lovecraft are about aliens, and the barrow wight is not very alien. The Old Man Willow is much more alien - plants are pretty strange, when you think about it!
It's interesting to compare Galadriel to Goldberry here. I note another similarity: they are both very elegant, beautiful, immortal women, as well as saying farewell in this fashion.
I don't know why the voyage to Valinor is foreshadowed here.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 10 2007, 9:35pm
Post #5 of 9
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It is possible to interpret that there is no magic at all, all of the way up until the wight's words, but we all just know that isn't the case.
But what is it that Tolkien does to suggest unreality beneath a seemingly-normal journey over the hills?
(And I don't understand the question in your subject line: where does drogo claim that Tolkien fails in his presentation of the supernatural?)
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Dec. 3-9 for "In the House of Tom Bombadil".
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Curious
Gondolin
Dec 10 2007, 10:30pm
Post #6 of 9
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What does this dream vision of the Undying Lands suggest about the effect of Tom’s house upon Frodo? Is he seeing the future? Is that possible in Tolkien’s universe? What is the function of this vision in the narrative of the story, right before his first big “test” at the Barrow-downs
Yes, Frodo is seeing the future, and yes, that is possible in Tolkien's universe. This is not the first time Frodo has had this sort of dream, though. Frodo has had many dreams of the sea. The purpose of the dream depends entirely upon Frodo's faith in his visions, hunches, omens, and dreams. Frodo's faith will be tested in the Barrow.
This scene is later echoed in the departure from Lothlorien in which the Fellowship catches its last glimpse of Galadriel. What does this scene suggest about Goldberry, and why does Tolkien put so much emphasis upon these scenes of farewell?
Actually it is also echoed in the last good-bye to King Elessar, and the second-to-last good-bye to Galadriel, and the last good-bye to Frodo. But here the hobbits are not saying farewell to Fairie, but to home. Even though Goldberry does not live in the Shire, she and Tom seem much more hobbity than Galadriel or even King Elessar. This farewell comes at the beginning of the adventure, and that makes all the difference.
How effectively does Tolkien set the mood and atmosphere in the Barrow-downs? How does this compare with the Old Forest (and is it too much having another “uncanny” landscape so close to the first one—is it overkill in the beginning of the journey?)
Everything outside the Shire is uncanny to the hobbits. So no, this is not overkill. Tolkien does a great job of setting the mood, I judge. But note that the Downs still resemble parts of rural England. We have not yet traveled into a land the English would not recognize.
For geography lovers, how easily can you trace the hobbits’ route? Do map books such as Strachey’s and Fonstad’s aid you in visualizing the path, or does Tolkien provide enough clues to follow?
I guess I'm not a geography lover, because I've never paid that close attention to the exact route.
For Appendix lovers, how does the history of the Witch-king's realm and his fight with the Northern Kingdom(s) help us (retroactively) understand the significance of this place, and does the relative lack of information about what the Barrows are and what happened in that land earlier in the age affect the way readers react to the episode? Should Tolkien have included more backstory, or do the few details about what the Barrows are and why they are so sinister help make this a more effective "Gothic" or "ghost story" tale early in the LOTR?
I love the fact that an explanation exists, but that we do not get the full explanation until the appendices. I like it better than Bombadil, for whom no real explanation exists.
This episode and the scenes inside the Barrow that follow are perhaps the most “Lovecraftian” passages in the LOTR. How effective is Tolkien as a writer of the macabre? Does he create tension and anxiety effectively? Again, coming on the heels of Merry and Pippin being swallowed by Old Man Willow, does this scene lose any of its effectiveness?
I think we had this conversation before. I see certain similarities to Lovecraft, because I think Tolkien and Lovecraft were drawing on similar sources, i.e. the old-fashioned ghost story. However Lovecraft's stories are much more horror oriented, and also have science fiction elements missing in Tolkien's tale. Tolkien's tension is lighter in tone, since he often hints at a happy ending. Lovecraft often hints at an unhappy ending.
The Barrow doesn't really come on the heels of Old Man Willow, since we have had an interval in Bombadil's house. And because Bombadil taught them his rhyme, we are pretty sure he will come to the rescue. There's tension, but it's a lighter type of tension, like a children's tale. That will change by the end of LotR, where the tension in Mordor becomes very adult in tone. Indeed that change begins on Weathertop, where Frodo is wounded, and the wound does not fully heal.
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Curious
Gondolin
Dec 10 2007, 10:31pm
Post #7 of 9
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to the comparison to Lovecraft, although I could be wrong.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Dec 10 2007, 11:02pm
Post #8 of 9
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It happens to often *not* to be magic
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But what is it that Tolkien does to suggest unreality beneath a seemingly-normal journey over the hills?
At some point, I will have to throw up my hands and say "I don't know", just as it is impossible to define what is funny. However, the imagery and the timing of events is impecable. The warm sun causing the Hobbits to fall asleep at the base of the standing stone. WHen they wake up, they are surrounded by a sea of fog, with the watery sun in the distance and the "icy" wind. The fog then rises up to form a "roof", in which the standing stone is the "central pillar". The fog itself obscures vision, allowing us to teleport into a world that is not and never was: the gate with the two standing stones, with the barrow wight itself. Even the ponies recognize the stones when they see them, and bolt at that moment.
If this were the only scene in the book that were like this, then it would be possible that there was no magic in LotR. However, it happens too often, too often for anyone of a scientific mindset to ignore. This is a fantasy world, not a low-tech sci-fi world.
And I don't understand the question in your subject line: where does drogo claim that Tolkien fails in his presentation of the supernatural?)
Answer:
How effectively does Tolkien set the mood and atmosphere in the Barrow-downs?
The answer is: extremely
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Penthe
Mithlond
Dec 11 2007, 1:09am
Post #9 of 9
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"far green country...under a swift sunrise"
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This has always sounded more like Rohan to me than the Undying Lands. Of course, the rest of the "vision"accords very strongly with Frodo's glimpse of the Undying Lands at the very end, but a 'swift sunrise' just doesn't fit with me. Although, of course, it could be Ithilien viewed from Henneth Annun as well, couldn't it.
I quite like cheese, you know.
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