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a.s.
Doriath
Dec 5 2007, 12:14pm
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Chapter 7: In the House of Tom B--Dreams and Visions
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First, let's take a look at the dreams that come to our hobbits in the night, in the House of Tom Bombadil:
In the dead night, Frodo lay in a dream without light. Then he saw the young moon rising; under its thin light there loomed before him a black wall of rock, pierced by a dark arch like a great gate. It seemed to Frodo that he was lifted up, and passing over he saw that the rock-wall was a circle of hills, and that within it was a plain, and in the midst of the plain stood a pinnacle of stone, like a vast tower but not made by hands. On its top stood the figure of a man. The moon as it rose seemed to hang for a moment above his head and glistened in his white hair as the wind stirred it. Up from the dark plain below came the crying of fell voices, and the howling of many wolves. Suddenly a shadow, like the shape of great wings, passed across the moon. The figure lifted his arms and a light flashed from the staff that he wielded. A mighty eagle swept down and bore him away. The voices wailed and the wolves yammered. There was a noise like a strong wind blowing, and on it was borne the sound of hoofs, galloping, galloping, galloping from the East. ‘Black Riders!’ thought Frodo as he wakened, with the sound of the hoofs still echoing in his mind.
At his side Pippin lay dreaming pleasantly; but a change came over his dreams and he turned and groaned. Suddenly he woke, or thought he had waked, and yet still heard in the darkness the sound that had disturbed his dream: tip-tap, squeak: the noise was like branches fretting in the wind, twig-fingers scraping wall and window: creak, creak, creak. He wondered if there were willow-trees close to the house; and then suddenly he had a dreadful feeling that he was not in an ordinary house at all, but inside the willow and listening to that horrible dry creaking voice laughing at him again. He sat up, and felt the soft pillows yield to his hands, and he lay down again relieved
It was the sound of water that Merry heard falling into his quiet sleep: water streaming down gently, and then spreading, spreading irresistibly all round the house into a dark shoreless pool. It gurgled under the walls, and was rising slowly but surely. ‘I shall be drowned!’ he thought. It will find its way in, and then I shall drown.’ He felt that he was lying in a soft slimy bog, and springing up he set his fool on the corner of a cold hard flagstone. Then he remembered where he was and lay down again
As far as he could remember, Sam slept through the night in deep content, if logs are contented
1) Comments on the hobbit dreams.
2) Frodo's dream is an actual vision: he somehow sees Gandalf's rescue at Orthanc. Why does Frodo have a vision? Is there a connection between sleeping in this particular house and visions of things that are actually happening (or has already happened) in another part of ME?
3) Tom sends them to bed with this admonishment: "'Sleep till the morning-light, rest on the pillow! Heed no nightly noise! Fear no grey willow!'" Merry and Pippin's dreams involve frightening noises. Frodo's, too, although his is an actual vision not a "simple" dream. Thoughts on any connection between Tom's words to the hobbits and their subsequent dream experiences?
4) Why does Sam have no memory of dreaming? Why does Tolkien give the other hobbits such potent dream experiences but leave Sam out?
5) Verlyn Flieger's book "A Question of Time" devotes an entire chapter called "Frodo's Dreams" to the careful use of dreams and visions as events in LOTR. Tolkien made many drafts of all the dreams/visions in LOTR, putting them in at certain points, then changing them as needed as he changed his "calendar of events", etc. At the same time he was writing some of the revisions for all of these things, he was also writing "The Notion Club Papers", his attempt at a "time travel" story. Notion Club also uses the device of time travel in dreams. Comments or thoughts on the use of dream/vision in this chapter, and elsewhere in LOTR?
I won't be able to post tonight, but hopefully you'll find enough to talk about in re: dreams and visions and hobbits and time and space and Tom and this peculiar House to wait until tomorrow for the next post!
Tomorrow: The Stories
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Dec 5 2007, 7:43pm
Post #2 of 17
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Others have discussed these very dreams before,
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claiming how Frodo is being demarked as the chosen hero, and how Merry and Pippin are still just hobbits, not heroes.
You have to wonder what Irmo is doing, however. I think Gandalf has already been rescued by this point, however, hasn't he?
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Dec 5 2007, 8:58pm
Post #3 of 17
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but it struck me on my last reading that Merry and Pippin's night-time experience is a little bit like Bilbo's at Beorn's house.
Yet in the night [Bilbo] woke...There was a growling noise outside, and a noise as of some great animal scuffling at the door. Bilbo wondered what it was, and whether it could be Beorn in enchanted shape, and if he would come in as a bear and kill them. He dived under the blankets and hid his head, and fell asleep again at last in spite of his fears.
Bilbo actually wakes, and in fact Merry and Pippin also wake, even if they later ascribe what they heard to dreams.
Suddenly [Pippin] woke, or thought he had waked, and yet still heard in the darkness the sound that had disturbed his dream: tip-tap, squeak: the noise was like branches fretting in the wind, twig-fingers scraping wall and window: creak, creak, creak. He wondered if there were willow-trees close to the house; and then suddenly he had a dreadful feeling that he was not in an ordinary house at all, but inside the willow and listening to that horrible dry creaking voice laughing at him again. He sat up, and felt the soft pillows yield to his hands, and he lay down again relieved.
It was the sound of water that Merry heard falling into his quiet sleep: water streaming down gently, and then spreading, spreading irresistibly all round the house into a dark shoreless pool. It gurgled under the walls, and was rising slowly but surely. "I shall be drowned!" he thought. It will find its way in, and then I shall drown." He felt that he was lying in a soft slimy bog, and springing up he set his foot on the corner of a cold hard flagstone. Then he remembered where he was and lay down again.
It struck me that perhaps Tom and Goldberry's warning to "heed no nightly noises" is a bit like Beorn's warning to stay inside at night. Perhaps like Beorn, they "shape-shift" at night, and become the natural forces they "really" are - so the tree would be Tom, and the water of course would be Goldberry.
There are parallels in the details of Bilbo's stay with Beorn and Frodo's with Tom - the way the beds are laid out with soft blankets, the way breakfast is laid out but the hosts are not present. Perhaps that's what made me think this way.
But even if the dreams don't represent Tom and Goldberry directly, I do wonder if the trees and water themes are linked to them, rather than to Merry and Pippin specifically.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Curious
Gondolin
Dec 6 2007, 12:16am
Post #4 of 17
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Frodo's dream becomes important at the Council of Elrond, when he
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realizes it was a true dream. The point, I judge, is to make him aware that there are Powers out there who are sending him true dreams, and that he is not alone. It also helps him believe Boromir's dream, which is also Faramir's dream, if he has had a true dream himself.
Pippin and Merry's dreams seem to me like a more natural outgrowth of their harrowing experience with Old Man Willow. The idea that Goldberry and Bombadil turn into water and a tree at night is an interesting idea. Surely they do not need sleep, and if they are nature spirits they are also capable of changing shape. Indeed as someone noted, we don't even know if Bombadil's house is real or an enchantment of some kind, a vision to make the hobbits feel more comfortable. But whatever is "really" happening, the way Pippin and Merry experience their dreams seems like the natural reaction to a shock, and we never get any hints that these dreams are more than just ordinary dreams.
Sam will have dreams and visions later, but not now. Actually Sam may have had a prophetic dream when he was with Gildor and the elves, and a vision when he crossed the Brandywine, so he hasn't been left out entirely. But I think only Frodo had a prophetic dream this night. The time spent with Bombadil and the upcoming adventure in the Barrow-mound mostly concern Frodo and the Ring, and the answer to the question Frodo asked Gildor -- where will I find courage?
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a.s.
Doriath
Dec 6 2007, 12:16pm
Post #5 of 17
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not far-fetched! Tom and Beorn
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Here's a link to an article from the March 22, 2007 edition of Mythlore, discussing this very thing!
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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a.s.
Doriath
Dec 6 2007, 12:23pm
Post #6 of 17
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yes, that's the problem with repeat discussions! LOL
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But it's my doom or fate or--something else (raises enigmatic eyebrow)--to discuss them again!
Why do I have to wonder what Irmo is doing?
Yes, I believe in the timeline, Gandalf has already flown away from Orthanc. This vision isn't prescient. But it's not a dream in the usual sense, since it describes in detail something that occurred in another part of space-time.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Dec 6 2007, 3:42pm
Post #7 of 17
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Dream visions that "move laterally in space"
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Yes, I believe in the timeline, Gandalf has already flown away from Orthanc. This vision isn't prescient. But it's not a dream in the usual sense, since it describes in detail something that occurred in another part of space-time.
Verlyn Flieger touches on this a bit in her recent essay, "The Curious Incident of the Dream at the Barrow: Memory and Reincarnation in Middle-earth" in Tolkien Studies 4 (2007): 99-112. See in particular, p.106.
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Dec 6 2007, 3:48pm
Post #8 of 17
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I agree: not at all far-fetched.
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But a.s., your Beorn/Bombadil link doesn't seem to work. You must mean Paul W. Lewis's "Beorn and Tom Bombadil: A Tale of Two Heroes" from Mythlore 97/98. Assuming so (I haven't read it yet), try this link instead.
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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a.s.
Doriath
Dec 6 2007, 4:31pm
Post #9 of 17
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you see what happens when you hurry???
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You copy the darn TITLE instead of the URL!! Sorry I was in such a hurry this am.
Thanks for having my back, there, 'wease.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 7 2007, 5:09am
Post #11 of 17
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It shows both what happened, and what is happening: it is not Black Riders that he hears, but Gandalf on Shadowfax, hastening towards the Shire. It could be that his earlier anxiety is causing him to "reach out" to the wizard, and so the dream is given.
I remember noting in the last discussion, "Pippin's dream was hard, "wooden" you might say; he needed the opposite, softness, to dispel the dream. Merry's dream was fluid, unstable; he needed solidity, a "firm foothold", to ease his mind." (Thanks for putting that entire LotR discussion on your site, squire!)
And I jumped the gun a bit - I mentioned in the post below, that I think Tom and Goldberry know what they're going to be dreaming that night, and thus have provided them with words of comfort to recall when they waken.
Remember how each of the Hobbits reacted, when they were having their close encounter with Old Man Willow? Pippin and Merry were in torment, and Frodo freaked out. Practical Sam was the only one who kept his head. And hence, is rewarded with a deep, undisturbed sleep: he is the only one with no "issues" to work out.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Dec 7 2007, 6:43am
Post #12 of 17
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A reminder of the Black Riders
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I think that Frodo's vision here serves several purposes. First off, it remnds us of the Black Riders, who are still the villains of this story. We are not safe in the House of Tom Bombadil, or rather, we are, but we cannot stay here. The main villain is still out there.
The vision of Gandalf's rescue also provides a segway for later, something we don't recognize at first, but foreshadows that not all that at first seems scary is evil.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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a.s.
Doriath
Dec 7 2007, 12:08pm
Post #13 of 17
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good insight into Sam's lack of dreaming!!
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Remember how each of the Hobbits reacted, when they were having their close encounter with Old Man Willow? Pippin and Merry were in torment, and Frodo freaked out. Practical Sam was the only one who kept his head. And hence, is rewarded with a deep, undisturbed sleep: he is the only one with no "issues" to work out.
I like that interpretation!
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 8 2007, 7:07am
Post #14 of 17
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"Well, *wease* is one that I haven’t heard before, anyway"
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"They call me that on TORN .... In the high tongue it will not sound so ill, and Váva I will be and all the heirs of my body."
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Dec. 3-9 for "In the House of Tom Bombadil".
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 8 2007, 1:31pm
Post #16 of 17
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Morwen
Nargothrond
Dec 10 2007, 10:08pm
Post #17 of 17
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Sam's lack of dreaming reminds me of Aragorn in Lorien, and how, upon realizing he was for the time being in a safe place, Aragorn fell immediately into a long restful sleep. Sam, for all his distrust of strangers, has enough hobbit sense to realize, at least subconsciously that he is safe and should sleep soundly while he can. I agree with others that Merry and Pippin are simply reliving their traumas of the day, while Frodo, perhaps because of the Ring, has a true vision of the person who is probably uppermost in his mind at this time.
Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you; you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out.
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