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Durin's Folk
Lindon
Jan 19 2013, 4:00am
Post #1 of 15
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Runes on orcrist in Khuzdul?
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Why are the runes on orcrist written in Khuzdul? Should them not be written in Quenya or sindarin since the blade was made by elves?
http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Orcrist
"But a small dark figure that none had observed sprang out of the shadows and gave a hoarse shout: 'Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!' An axe swung and swept back. Two Orcs fell headless. The rest fled."
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Aragalen the Green
Mithlond
Jan 19 2013, 4:18am
Post #2 of 15
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The Runes are Elvish in origin
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The Runes, also called Cirth, were invented by a Sindarin Elf named Daeron, and the Dwarves eventually adapted the Cirth for their language. Here is a link that should be helpful:
http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Daeron%27s_Runes
The article you cite also states the translation on Orcrsit is "NAGOL E-LYG or ‘Tooth of-Snake [or Dragon]’". It is most likely Sindarin, but not Khuzdul.
There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much.
(This post was edited by Aragalen the Green on Jan 19 2013, 4:23am)
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Durin's Folk
Lindon
Jan 19 2013, 4:32am
Post #3 of 15
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Why would elves of Gondolin who thought those Runes were ''Simplistic'' use them on such pieces who were destined to be wielded by elven royalty?
"But a small dark figure that none had observed sprang out of the shadows and gave a hoarse shout: 'Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!' An axe swung and swept back. Two Orcs fell headless. The rest fled."
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Aragalen the Green
Mithlond
Jan 19 2013, 5:02am
Post #4 of 15
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with Peter Jackson and crew, as Orcrist appears to be their design for the movie..
However, in looking around the links from the link I posted, I did find this a reference to the Angerthas Daeron, which seemed to be the highest Elvish form of the Cirth:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Angerthas_Daeron
In the third paragraph of this link under Structure, it did mention "but for most forms of writing other than carving, the Tengwar were used". So perhaps too simple for writing but not for carving or even inscriptions on a sword. Just a guess.
There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much.
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Jabarkis
Lindon
Jan 19 2013, 5:05am
Post #5 of 15
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One possibility is that the elves would have used one script for official or important inscriptions on hard materials (like stone and metal), and another for day-to-day purposes or for writing on softer material (like paper).
Perhaps it's a bit like the different uses of hieroglyphics and hieratic by the Egyptians?
Edit: Aragalen - ah, well spotted :)
(This post was edited by Jabarkis on Jan 19 2013, 5:09am)
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Aragalen the Green
Mithlond
Jan 19 2013, 4:22pm
Post #6 of 15
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We both got similar information from different routes! Good researching :)
There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much.
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Aragalen the Green
Mithlond
Jan 19 2013, 4:23pm
Post #7 of 15
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Did this information help answer your question?
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Other than asking the Orcrist design team!
There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much.
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Aragalen the Green
Mithlond
Jan 19 2013, 6:46pm
Post #9 of 15
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in the link you posted is also Cirth (Runes), not Tengwar.
There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much.
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Durin's Folk
Lindon
Jan 19 2013, 7:09pm
Post #10 of 15
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This has helped me a lot but still...
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Sting was supposedly inscripted in Rivendell by request from Bilbo. Maybe that's what they used Tengwar for the engraving. I am still wondering why exactly they would use cirth on this sword and tengwar on this other one.
I guess it was maybe cultural since there were many different clans of elves. Gondolin = Cirth, Rivendell = Tengwar.... BUT NO WAIT!!! Anduril was also forged in Rivendell and they used... CIRTH! What is going on out here!!
I don't know if it's the design team who screwed it or if they had legitimate insights. But Keeping it Tengwar all the way would have been my choice.
"But a small dark figure that none had observed sprang out of the shadows and gave a hoarse shout: 'Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!' An axe swung and swept back. Two Orcs fell headless. The rest fled."
(This post was edited by Durin's Folk on Jan 19 2013, 7:10pm)
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Aragalen the Green
Mithlond
Jan 19 2013, 7:20pm
Post #11 of 15
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From the links that I and others (and you!) shared here, both Orcrist and Glamdring are inscripted with Sindarin Cirth (runes). Sting's inscription was added in Rivendell, and they used Sindarin Tengwar.
I don't know why the differences! Perhaps inscripting with Tengwar was more difficult and came later that the use of the Cirth. As far as Anduril, maybe Men used Cirth rather than Tengwar? Using Tengwar for Sting may have been at Bilbo's personal request, as he loved studying Elvish.
Whew, I'm not a linguist, but did study Cirth and Tengwar years ago...maybe I should study it again to catch up!
There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much.
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Lightice
Menegroth
Jan 19 2013, 7:21pm
Post #12 of 15
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Many interpretations, as always.
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It could be as simple as that Bilbo is a big fan of Tengwar and specifically requested an inscription in that script even though it's not traditionally used for carving. As I recall, the carvings on Andúril weren't in Sindarin but Adûnaic, which is never written in Tengwar, since the blade was intended for a King of Men.
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Durin's Folk
Lindon
Jan 19 2013, 7:28pm
Post #13 of 15
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Still I believe we can all agree that we will never find the 100% real answer. I really thank you guy's specially Aragalen the Green. Thank you!
"But a small dark figure that none had observed sprang out of the shadows and gave a hoarse shout: 'Baruk Khazâd! Khazâd ai-mênu!' An axe swung and swept back. Two Orcs fell headless. The rest fled."
(This post was edited by Durin's Folk on Jan 19 2013, 7:29pm)
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Aragalen the Green
Mithlond
Jan 19 2013, 7:39pm
Post #14 of 15
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In my profession, I do a lot of research, so this has been fun for me. And I agree, trying to find out about invented languages--with the author sadly gone--means we may never find the "right" answer. Keep on asking questions!
There it is: dwarves are not heroes, but calculating folk with a great idea of the value of money; some are tricky and treacherous and pretty bad lots; some are not, but are decent enough people like Thorin and Company, if you don't expect too much.
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