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dernwyn
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Nov 27 2007, 11:00pm
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The Old Forest IV: The wind in the Willow
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Our intrepid band of travellers finally find themselves at the banks of the Withywindle:
Coming to the opening they found that they had made their way down through a cleft in a high sleep bank, almost a cliff. At its feet was a wide space of grass and reeds; and in the distance could be glimpsed another bank almost as steep. A golden afternoon of late sunshine lay warm and drowsy upon the hidden land between. In the midst of it there wound lazily a dark river of brown water, bordered with ancient willows, arched over with willows, blocked with fallen willows, and flecked with thousands of faded willow-leaves. The air was thick with them, fluttering yellow from the branches; for there was a warm and gentle breeze blowing softly in the valley, and the reeds were rustling, and the willow-boughs were creaking. Withy is, of course, from the Old English widhig, “willow”. (You’ll have to pretend that the “dh” is an “eth” - I was unable to produce that letter on this Mac.) The useful willow is also the source of salicylic acid, from which aspirin was developed. Ironically, we are about to meet a willow who promotes headaches.
Old Man Willow’s influence on the Hobbits has a very root-like and leaf-like nature :
“Sleepiness seemed to be creeping out of the ground and up their legs, and falling softly out of the air upon their heads and eyes.” A lullaby floats in the air: “Only a gentle noise on the edge of hearing, a soft fluttering as of a song half whispered, seemed to stir in the boughs above.”
Three of the four succumb, but not our stalwart Sam. Sam? He’s still in this group? We last saw him making breakfast back at Crickhollow! Frodo, Merry, and Pippin have all had a say while riding in this Forest; does it seem strange that Sam has remained quiet all this time?
...The afternoon was getting late, and he thought this sudden sleepiness uncanny. 'There's more behind this than sun and warm air,' he muttered to himself. 'I don't like this great big tree. I don't trust it. Hark at it singing about sleep now! This won't do at all!' Why is Sam alone among them the only one to not fall completely under this spell? What would make him realize that this tree is responsible for the sleepiness - why doesn’t he trust it?
...Behind them the great cracks gaped wide to receive them as the tree swayed and creaked. They looked up at the grey and yellow leaves, moving softly against the light, and singing. They shut their eyes, and then it seemed that they could almost hear words, cool words, saying something about water and sleep. They gave themselves up to the spell and fell fast asleep at the foot of the great grey willow. Two down! Pippin and Merry lean against the cracks. I can understand how Merry came to be half-in, half-out; but how could Pippin have become sealed entirely inside?
...Frodo lay for a while fighting with the sleep that was overpowering him; then with an effort he struggled to his feel again. He felt a compelling desire for cool water. 'Wait for me, Sam,' he stammered. 'Must bathe feet a minute.'
...Half in a dream he wandered forward to the riverward side of the tree, where great winding roots grew out into the stream, like gnarled dragonets straining down to drink. He straddled one of these, and paddled his hot feel in the cool brown water; and there he too suddenly fell asleep with his back against the tree. “Gnarled dragonets”: what is a dragonet, and do you get the impression of Frodo “riding” one of these? He’s nearly fatally “dismounted” by it:
...He rushed back to the bank. Frodo was in the water close to the edge, and a great tree-root seemed to be over him and holding him down, but he was not struggling. Sam gripped him by the jacket, and dragged him from under the root; and then with difficulty hauled him on to the bank. Almost at once he woke, and coughed and spluttered.
...’Do you know, Sam,' he said at length, 'the beastly tree threw me in! I felt it. The big root just twisted round and tipped me in!'
...'You were dreaming I expect, Mr. Frodo,' said Sam. 'You shouldn't sit in such a place, if you feel sleepy.'’ Well! That splash into the water seems to have released Frodo from the spell, once Sam woke him. But after his distrust of the Willow, shouldn’t Sam have been more suspicious, finding Frodo under the root?
And why is Old Man Willow doing this: why not, say, just drop a large branch on these creatures, and do away with them at once, four with one blow? Or is it in the nature of evil things to torment their captives?
This seems to still be a sequel to The Hobbit, here, with Frodo echoing Bilbo’s oft-repeated thought of Bag End as he travelled to Erebor: “What a foul thing to happen!...Why did we ever come into this dreadful Forest? I wish we were all back at Crickhollow!”
Sam’s getting desperate: “We might try to hurt or frighten this tree to begin with...If it don't let them go, I'll have it down, if I have to gnaw it.” Would you have ever imagined him wanting to deliberately harm a living thing? How does this compare with his attitude towards Gollum later on?
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Kimi
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Nov 28 2007, 12:02am
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A dragonet is a young dragon (it can also mean a fish of the genus Callionymus, or a South American lizard, according to the OED, but I think we're safe going for the dragon meaning). Gnarly old roots can look quite dragonish, can't they?
An interesting echo of The Hobbit; so far we've seen a fireworks dragon, and now tree roots in the shape of little dragons.
  
Promises to Keep: a novel set in 19th Century New Zealand.
The Passing of Mistress Rose
Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?
- A Room With a View
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 28 2007, 12:03am
Post #3 of 20
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Who needs a Mac function when you can cut and paste from Google?
Frodo, Merry, and Pippin have all had a say while riding in this Forest; does it seem strange that Sam has remained quiet all this time?
I never found it odd that Sam was quiet. It makes sense to be quiet, as Pippin discovered. Merry is the guide, and Frodo asks the questions, so they have to speak a little. Sam quite sensibly chose to remain quiet -- until he alone realized what was happening.
Sam's hobbit sense pulls him through. He's more grounded than the others, and more suspicious -- too suspicious sometimes, as we will learn later. And he's more responsible. He's held a job all his life and knows that you don't sit down until the job is over. Unfortunately, his hobbit sense doesn't always pull him through, as we learn on the barrow mounds.
I can understand how Merry came to be half-in, half-out; but how could Pippin have become sealed entirely inside?
Maybe something pulled Pippin inside? Or maybe a root or branch pushed him inside.
... what is a dragonet A small dragon.
... do you get the impression of Frodo “riding” one of these [dragonets]?
Yes.
But after his distrust of the Willow, shouldn’t Sam have been more suspicious, finding Frodo under the root?
Sam was worried about staying awake, and didn't yet realize how much danger they were in.
And why is Old Man Willow doing this: why not, say, just drop a large branch on these creatures, and do away with them at once, four with one blow? Or is it in the nature of evil things to torment their captives?
This isn't the Whomping Willow! This is the seductive, sleep-charm willow. If Sam hadn't resisted the sleep charm, it would have worked, with no torment involved, by the way, since the hobbits would never have woken up.
Would you have ever imagined [Sam] wanting to deliberately harm a living thing?
We know he eats coneys! And Sam knows a weed plant when he sees it.
How does this compare with [Sam's] attitude towards Gollum later on?
I don't think it's personal between Sam and the willow. He just wants to free his friends. Between Sam and Gollum, on the other hand, it gets personal.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 28 2007, 12:17am
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This isn't the Whomping Willow! This is the seductive, sleep-charm willow. If Sam hadn't resisted the sleep charm, it would have worked, with no torment involved, by the way, since the hobbits would never have woken up.
I have this image that the Hobbits would have been allowed to wake up once entirely entombed within the Willow, but unable to escape, except for Frodo, who would have dreams of drowning (dreams that are true).
We know he eats coneys! And Sam knows a weed plant when he sees it.
To quote Shagrat, he also sticks a pin in Shelob.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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dernwyn
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Nov 28 2007, 2:34am
Post #6 of 20
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you're working in Word, that works! But alas, Appleworks (in which those posts were written) is rather disabled in that respect, producing only "?" when those letters are pasted in.
However, thank you for that (I found the thorn also), I've copied them into a Word file for future usage now.
I do like to think that Sam was watching, listening, and "keeping an eye out for Mr. Frodo" through the first leg of this journey. There are times when he seems to be the most serious one of that group - but that comes with his responsibilities.
I should have re-stated that "deliberately harm" so it could be understood to imply "torture" a living thing; he wants to threaten Old Man Willow into releasing his captives. It's an ornery thing which must be made to behave. And we begin to see his distrust in action: for a single impersonal episode here, and becoming his (yes, personal!) vigilance of Gollum later.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 28 2007, 2:46am
Post #7 of 20
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When you cut and paste from Appleworks,
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you can replace that question mark with the appropriate symbol. I compose my posts directly on this board.
You could claim that Sam tortures Shelob when she sits on Sting, too, I suppose. But Sam is hardly threatening a helpless captive; he is fighting a deadly opponent, and attempting to rescue his friends.
(This post was edited by Curious on Nov 28 2007, 2:49am)
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dernwyn
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Nov 28 2007, 4:28am
Post #8 of 20
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torture to Shelob (and described as such, also!).
I think you meant "threatening that which has a helpless captive", or something like that, in that sentence!  We know that Old Man Willow is neither helpless nor captive, in spite of being rooted to the ground.
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 28 2007, 9:39am
Post #9 of 20
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Three of the four succumb, but not our stalwart Sam. Sam? He’s still in this group? We last saw him making breakfast back at Crickhollow! Frodo, Merry, and Pippin have all had a say while riding in this Forest; does it seem strange that Sam has remained quiet all this time?
Sam's got a job to do. He's probably leading the pack-pony in the rear, and I think he's taken on his self-imposed job of "looking after my master" (he describes a later part of this job to Faramir: "Now I watched Boromir and listened to him, from Rivendell all down the road - looking after my master, as you'll understand"). So I reckon he's quite happy to stay quiet and keep an eye on things, letting Frodo ask the questions. This is all very new to him, even more than it is for the other hobbits.
Why is Sam alone among them the only one to not fall completely under this spell? What would make him realize that this tree is responsible for the sleepiness - why doesn’t he trust it?
Maybe Sam does have a dash of the hard-headed country-hobbit inherited from his dad. We'll see in Tom Bombadil's house that Sam alone doesn't have a scary dream. I'd say he's a bit less susceptible to suggestion, because he's more down-to-earth. In fact he seems to see through the tree's hypnotic suggestion: "Hark at it singing about sleep now!"
Two down! Pippin and Merry lean against the cracks. I can understand how Merry came to be half-in, half-out; but how could Pippin have become sealed entirely inside?
Well, you know Pippin! If there's any trouble around, he'll be sure to be in it. He must have settled himself right on top of the roots, I think. From there he could fall backwards right inside the tree.
“Gnarled dragonets”: what is a dragonet, and do you get the impression of Frodo “riding” one of these? He’s nearly fatally “dismounted” by it:
Tolkien seems to have loved the idea of these snake-like roots. Here's his vision of Mirkwood:
and here's Old Man Willow himself:
Well! That splash into the water seems to have released Frodo from the spell, once Sam woke him. But after his distrust of the Willow, shouldn’t Sam have been more suspicious, finding Frodo under the root?
The tree-root seemed to be over him. So many apparently magical things only seem to be so. We never really know whether the tree attacked Frodo or not. Someone not influenced by dreams and an overstimulated imagination would assume, as Sam does, that Frodo had been asleep and had got himself under the root somehow when he fell.
And why is Old Man Willow doing this: why not, say, just drop a large branch on these creatures, and do away with them at once, four with one blow? Or is it in the nature of evil things to torment their captives?
I don't think we ever get any insight into what Old Man Willow "thinks" - it's all left very vague, with the sense that it could even all just be some natural occurrence that just happens to have befallen our inexperienced hobbits. The impression is that Old Man Willow, and the rest of the Forest, aren't trying to kill the hobbits outright but just expressing their anger and enmity towards them.
Sam’s getting desperate: “We might try to hurt or frighten this tree to begin with...If it don't let them go, I'll have it down, if I have to gnaw it.” Would you have ever imagined him wanting to deliberately harm a living thing? How does this compare with his attitude towards Gollum later on?
Sam is always trying to do his job - and job one is to look after Frodo and the others. Anything that threatens Frodo (or by extension here, Merry and Pippin) is going to be viewed by him as a threat to be got rid of. I think that's exactly how he feels about Gollum later on - he feels some stirrings of pity for the creature on his own account ("Poor wretch!"), but even though Frodo himself is willing to expose himself to danger, Sam finds it very hard indeed to allow that to happen. His outburst on the Stairs is precisely because he feels he's not done his job of protecting his master. Here already he's focusing on the job, and his self-imposed duty to protect the others, so anything that stands in his way receives no compassion at all.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 28 2007, 1:10pm
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threatening a helpless captive; meaning he is not doing so.
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dernwyn
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Nov 28 2007, 1:39pm
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Aunt Dora Baggins
Elvenhome
Nov 29 2007, 9:26pm
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I've posted this before: Ojo and the Shaggy Man
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The first time I read LotR, when I hit this scene I was strongly reminded of the following scene from "The Patchwork Girl of Oz". I'm pretty sure it's a coincidence, but it struck me then, and made me feel right at home in Tolkien's world:
The boy had no chance to escape. Half a dozen of the great leaves were bending toward him from different directions and as he stood hesitating one of them clutched him in its embrace. In a flash he was in the dark. Then he felt himself gently lifted until he was swaying in the air, with the folds of the leaf hugging him on all sides.
At first he struggled hard to escape, crying out in anger: "Let me go! Let me go!" But neither struggles nor protests had any effect whatever. The leaf held him firmly and he was a prisoner."
Then Ojo quieted himself and tried to think. Despair fell upon him when he remembered that all his little party had been captured, even as he was, and there was none to save them.
"I might have expected it," he sobbed, miserably. "I'm Ojo the Unlucky, and something dreadful was sure to happen to me."
He pushed against the leaf that held him and found it to be soft, but thick and firm. It was like a great bandage all around him and he found it difficult to move his body or limbs in order to change their position.
The minutes passed and became hours. Ojo wondered how long one could live in such a condition and if the leaf would gradually sap his strength and even his life, in order to feed itself. The little Munchkin boy had never heard of any person dying in the Land of Oz, but he knew one could suffer a great deal of pain. His greatest fear at this time was that he would always remain imprisoned in the beautiful leaf and never see the light of day again.
No sound came to him through the leaf; all around was intense silence. Ojo wondered if Scraps had stopped screaming, or if the folds of the leaf prevented his hearing her. By and by he thought he heard a whistle, as of some one whistling a tune. Yes; it really must be some one whistling, he decided, for he could follow the strains of a pretty Munchkin melody that Unc Nunkie used to sing to him. The sounds were low and sweet and, although they reached Ojo's ears very faintly, they were clear and harmonious.
Could the leaf whistle, Ojo wondered? Nearer and nearer came the sounds and then they seemed to be just the other side of the leaf that was hugging him.
Suddenly the whole leaf toppled and fell, carrying the boy with it, and while he sprawled at full length the folds slowly relaxed and set him free. He scrambled quickly to his feet and found that a strange man was standing before him--a man so curious in appearance that the boy stared with round eyes.
He was a big man, with shaggy whiskers, shaggy eyebrows, shaggy hair--but kindly blue eyes that were gentle as those of a cow. On his head was a green velvet hat with a jeweled band, which was all shaggy around the brim. Rich but shaggy laces were at his throat; a coat with shaggy edges was decorated with diamond buttons; the velvet breeches had jeweled buckles at the knees and shags all around the bottoms. On his breast hung a medallion bearing a picture of Princess Dorothy of Oz, and in his hand, as he stood looking at Ojo, was a sharp knife shaped like a dagger.
"Oh!" exclaimed Ojo, greatly astonished at the sight of this stranger; and then he added: "Who has saved me, sir?"
"Can't you see?" replied the other, with a smile; "I'm the Shaggy Man."
"Yes; I can see that," said the boy, nodding. "Was it you who rescued me from the leaf?"
"None other, you may be sure. But take care, or I shall have to rescue you again."
Ojo gave a jump, for he saw several broad leaves leaning toward him; but the Shaggy Man began to whistle again, and at the sound the leaves all straightened up on their stems and kept still.
The man now took Ojo's arm and led him up the road, past the last of the great plants, and not till he was safely beyond their reach did he cease his whistling.
"You see, the music charms 'em," said he. "Singing or whistling--it doesn't matter which-- makes 'em behave, and nothing else will. I always whistle as I go by 'em and so they always let me alone. Today as I went by, whistling, I saw a leaf curled and knew there must be something inside it. I cut down the leaf with my knife and--out you popped. Lucky I passed by, wasn't it?"
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"For DORA BAGGINS in memory of a LONG correspondence, with love from Bilbo; on a large wastebasket. Dora was Drogo's sister, and the eldest surviving female relative of Bilbo and Frodo; she was ninety-nine, and had written reams of good advice for more than half a century."
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Chance Meeting at Rivendell: a Tolkien Fanfic
and some other stuff I wrote...
leleni at hotmail dot com
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Letters from the Goddess
Firithyleleni
 
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 30 2007, 1:11am
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It shows that we are still in children's book mode.
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Bombadil, like Bilbo Baggins, is a character Tolkien invented for his children, as opposed to the Eldar and Edain, whom he invented for himself. Bombadil is not from the world of The Hobbit, but he is much closer to that world than to that of The Silmarillion.
Tolkien might not have read the Shaggy Man episode, or he might have read it and forgot it, or he might have read something which influenced both Tolkien and Baum, or it might be a complete coincidence. But the point is that the rescue from Old Man Willow feels like a child's tale, like The Hobbit or The Wizard of Oz.
In a sense the episodes in the Shire and with Bombadil are the sequel to The Hobbit, while even the rest of FotR, where Aragorn and Gandalf take over, have less and less in common with The Hobbit. And of course by the time we get to The Two Towers, all remnants of The Hobbit are gone, unless you count Gollum; but remember that the Gollum found in the revised version of The Hobbit appeared first in LotR.
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silneldor
Gondolin
Dec 2 2007, 2:09am
Post #14 of 20
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That is interesting because i have used a lot of different woods for firewood and willow is known to be a 'poor' firewood. But it wasn't until i had a bunch of it (it looks like ash but rather yellowish inside) and tried to burn it in the stove, that i realized it would have the tendency to just turn black and not burn, unless the fire was really quite hot.
"Tolkien, like Lewis, believed that, through story, the real world would become a more magical place, full of meaning. We see its patterns and colors in a fresh way. The recovery of a true view of the world applies both to individual things, like hills and stones, and to the cosmic - the depths of space and time itself. For in sub-creation, in Tolkien's view, there is a "survey" of space and time. Reality is captured on a miniature scale. Through stories like The Lord of the Rings, a renewed view of things is given, illuminating the homely, the spiritial, the physical, and the moral dimensions of the world."
Tolkien and C.S. Lewis- The Gift of Friendship -Duriez
May the grace of Manwë let us soar with eagle's wings!
In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of Manwë Súlimo
By El~Cugu
From the website: 'The Realm of Manwe'
Season's greetings with thoughts of Rivendell
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 8 2007, 3:25am
Post #15 of 20
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Bombadil wakes up inside the Willow.
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In the poem. When he wakes, he's able to escape simply by telling the tree to let him go: after all, he's Bombadil. But I think the hobbits might have awoken too. We know the tree can talk to them so that they'll understand him: wouldn't he gloat over them?
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 8 2007, 3:48am
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There were big yellow and white and blue and purple blossoms, besides great clusters of scarlet poppies, which were so brilliant in color they almost dazzled Dorothy's eyes...
They now came upon more and more of the big scarlet poppies, and fewer and fewer of the other flowers; and soon they found themselves in the midst of a great meadow of poppies. Now it is well known that when there are many of these flowers together their odor is so powerful that anyone who breathes it falls asleep, and if the sleeper is not carried away from the scent of the flowers, he sleeps on and on forever. But Dorothy did not know this, nor could she get away from the bright red flowers that were everywhere about; so presently her eyes grew heavy and she felt she must sit down to rest and to sleep.
But the Tin Woodman would not let her do this.
"We must hurry and get back to the road of yellow brick before dark," he said; and the Scarecrow agreed with him. So they kept walking until Dorothy could stand no longer. Her eyes closed in spite of herself and she forgot where she was and fell among the poppies, fast asleep.
[The Wonderful World of Oz]
Suddenly Frodo himself felt sleep overwhelming him. His head swam. There now seemed hardly a sound in the air. The flies had stopped buzzing. Only a gentle noise on the edge of hearing, a soft fluttering as of a song half whispered, seemed to stir in the boughs above. He lifted his heavy eyes and saw leaning over him a huge willow-tree, old and hoary. Enormous it looked, its sprawling branches going up like reaching arms with many long-fingered hands, its knotted and twisted trunk gaping in wide fissures that creaked faintly as the boughs moved. The leaves fluttering against the bright sky dazzled him, and he toppled over, lying where he fell upon the grass.
Emphasis added, in both cases.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 8 2007, 3:59am
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Why is Sam alone among them the only one to not fall completely under this spell? What would make him realize that this tree is responsible for the sleepiness - why doesn’t he trust it?
Because he's a gardener who works with plants, and knows when they're misbehaving? Or because he's already inclined to believe in the existence of tree-men?
What a foul thing to happen!...Why did we ever come into this dreadful Forest? I wish we were all back at Crickhollow!”
Remember Fatty, in the previous chapter: "You’ll wish you were back here with me before this time tomorrow".
If it don't let them go, I'll have it down, if I have to gnaw it.
Interesting that the trees think of the two-legged as "gnawing, biting, breaking, hacking, burning".
Frodo was in the water close to the edge, and a great tree-root seemed to be over him and holding him down, but he was not struggling.
A precursor of the figures in the Dead Marshes?
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 8 2007, 5:47am
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Grey trees with yellow leaves.
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There are no trees like the trees of that land. For in the autumn their leaves fall not, but turn to gold. Not till the spring comes and the new green opens do they fall, and then the boughs are laden with yellow flowers; and the floor of the wood is golden, and golden is the roof, and its pillars are of silver, for the bark of the trees is smooth and grey.
Not quite the same, but autumn in the Withywindle valley looks a little like the spring we never actually see in Lórien.
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Curious
Gondolin
Dec 8 2007, 1:21pm
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Just because Tom wakes up doesn't mean the hobbits would./
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dernwyn
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Dec 8 2007, 2:24pm
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simply echoing Fatty's words, which have come back to mind? That is, would he have said that phrase, if he had not already heard Fatty say it? But then, it is "before this time tomorrow", so Fatty's words do hold true!
Interesting thought, about Frodo's dump in the drink being a precursor to the Dead Marshes. Would this also relate to his being dragged into the water by the Watcher?
"Gnaw" means to use one's teeth to bite at, or wear away at, something; I wonder if to tree, such tools as axes and adzes were looked upon as "teeth".
Sam, being the expert gardener, knows precisely how trees should "behave", and so recognizes the Willow's movement as "unnatural"; but that's right, he does believe that "tree-men" exist, and maybe his mind is trying to reconcile that thought with the current experience, thus making him more alert!
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"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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