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dernwyn
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Nov 30 2007, 12:31pm
Post #1 of 17
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The Old Forest VII: We’re off to see the...wizard?
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The Hobbits now follow Tom up the path to his house, or rather, follow his singing.
Fear no alder black! Heed no hoary willow!
Fear neither root nor bough! Tom goes on before you.
Hey now! merry dol! We'll be waiting for you! Willow, root, and bough, are understandable; but why does Tom mention the “alder black” as a probable object of fear?
They step out of the Forest, and weariness and fears begin to slip out of mind. The Withywindle, “now small and swift, was leaping merrily down to meet them, glinting here and there in the light of the stars”. How does the river here compare with the river within the Forest: is this a natural evolution of rivers, or does it reflect the influences of Bombadil and Old Man Willow?
“The grass under their feet was smooth and short, as if it had been mown or shaven. The eaves of the Forest behind were clipped, and trim as a hedge.” Trimming the edge of a forest? Isn’t this going a bit too far? Does Tom have an Entwife-like desire for neat and orderly plants? Or is there another reason the trees are “trim as a hedge”?
Even more of “The Adventures of Tom Bombadil” make their way into the story (this is the section that Curious mentions below):
...He caught her, held her fast! Water-rats went scuttering
reeds hissed, herons cried, and her heart was fluttering.
Said Tom Bombadil: 'Here's my pretty maiden!
You shall come home with me! The table is all laden:
yellow cream, honeycomb, white bread and butter;
roses at the window-sill and peeping round the shutter.
You shall come under Hill! Never mind your mother
in her deep weedy pool: there you'll find no lover!' It would appear that Tolkien borrowed this directly for LotR.
“And with that song the hobbits stood upon the threshold, and a golden light was all about them”, and they were ready to head into the next chapter.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Owlyross
Nargothrond
Nov 30 2007, 2:45pm
Post #2 of 17
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Passing into (or out of?) Faerie
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Willow, root, and bough, are understandable; but why does Tom mention the “alder black” as a probable object of fear?
No idea, it actually seems to have been revered in ancient times. Black Alder is a symbol of resurrection in Norse and Brythonic mythology as the wood turns red when it is cut. The first humans in Nordic myth were made from Alder and Ash trees. Apparently the Irish considered it unlucky to pass an alder tree on a journey, maybe this is a reason... But from another webpage, the turning red is a negative thing. “The living wood of alder is a pale colour but it turns a deep orange when cut. This gave the impression of bleeding and led to all sorts of negative superstitions about the tree.” Or it could the rhythm of the words “alder black” works well in the rhyme, and all trees in the Old Forest should be feared and respected.
How does the river here compare with the river within the Forest: is this a natural evolution of rivers, or does it reflect the influences of Bombadil and Old Man Willow?
I think it reflects the influence of Goldberry… It’s only natural that near Old Man Willow it could be corrupted through his influence on it… He does drink it after all. But nearer the “River Daughter” it is clean and beautiful.
Trimming the edge of a forest? Isn’t this going a bit too far? Does Tom have an Entwife-like desire for neat and orderly plants? Or is there another reason the trees are “trim as a hedge”?
It’s almost as if the old forest is deepest, darkest Faerie land, and the hedge is the limit of that space. They entered it through the tunnel near Crickhollow, and have come back out here. What they are now passing into is a faerie land mixed with the actual real world… Or is it The Shire that is Faerie land, and they are passing into the real world of politics, kings and danger? Certainly, the Shire ends up being protected, so maybe that’s the purpose of the Hedge… It keeps the intruders out of their Faerie land. Much like the Wall in Neil Gaiman’s Stardust.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Benjamin Franklin
The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
Horace Walpole (1717 - 1797)
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Nov 30 2007, 3:41pm
Post #3 of 17
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Willow, root, and bough, are understandable; but why does Tom mention the “alder black” as a probable object of fear?
I have wondered whether this could be an oblique reference to Göthe's Erlking. For those who do not know it, this is a supremely chilling 18th century poem about a supernatural being called (in the original) the Erlkönig. Read the text in German and English here at Wikipedia. Also, there's a truly frightening painting of the Erlking (Albert Sterner, 1910) at the top of the article. *shudder*
Erlkönig has often been translated as "Elf-king" (and in the poem, the child's ailment could be connected to the so-called "elf-shot", I suppose), but this is not really very accurate. Better is "Alder-king" (OHG erla > MHG erle "alder"; for comparison, cognate forms further west include OE al(o)r and ON ölr). One could argue that, historically, the poem may have been too carelessly rendered into English, further promulgating the "bad reputation" of Elves — something that would have chafed at Tolkien. I could see him encoding a subtle philological reference here perhaps. Then again, perhaps the idea is just fool's gold.
On the other hand, the poem does have "old willows so grey", which Tolkien may be echoing with "hoary willow" ...
Thoughts?
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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Owlyross
Nargothrond
Nov 30 2007, 3:53pm
Post #4 of 17
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Is the Erlking linked to the Black Riders?
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The line about it being only "a streak of fog" certainly links to the feel before and after the Hobbits enter the Forest. Which sort of links to what I was saying about the hedge and the barrier of Faerie and the Old Forest being the home of "deep and dark Faerie". The picture at the top of that article certainly looks to me to be like a Black Rider, and the baby being hurried home only to find it's dead, is like Frodo being hurried to Elrond's house (but of course he survives). Tolkien was well-acquainted with Germanic myth, there's every reason to think that he would have know that legend.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
Benjamin Franklin
The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think.
Horace Walpole (1717 - 1797)
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visualweasel
Nargothrond
Nov 30 2007, 4:02pm
Post #5 of 17
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Looking at that illustration, I also thought of the Black Riders. But I hadn't connected the child being rushed along on the horse to Frodo on Asfaloth — that's a nice parallel too, but is it making too much of it? Plenty of other legends about bogeys and banshees, after all. So maybe, maybe not. There are really only a few motes of evidence for this particular legend, yet I find the whole idea very appealing nonetheless.
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 30 2007, 6:01pm
Post #6 of 17
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Alder is another tree found along streams
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Alder and willow both require a very shallow water table to survive, so they are both found along streams. Where you find one, you usually find the other. I don't see any reason why associating alder here is a surprise...
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 30 2007, 7:00pm
Post #7 of 17
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I like Beren's answer to the first one.
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Willow, root, and bough, are understandable; but why does Tom mention the “alder black” as a probable object of fear?
I like simple solutions, like the fact that alder and willow both grow in the same places.
How does the river here compare with the river within the Forest: is this a natural evolution of rivers, or does it reflect the influences of Bombadil and Old Man Willow?
I don't think Old Man Willow has power over the river -- rivers, even small ones, are pretty powerful in Tolkien's tales. Bombadil could have power but he doesn't exercise it unless directly threatened in some way. So I think this is just the way the river flows, and reflects the fact that Bombadil's house is on a hill on the border of the Old Forest, above and clearly separated from the tangled roots and trees and brush that have threatened the hobbits.
I love the fact that the stars are so bright that they reflect off the water here. The stars seem to shine brightly in Middle-earth, especially near blessed locations like Bombadil's house.
Trimming the edge of a forest? Isn’t this going a bit too far? Does Tom have an Entwife-like desire for neat and orderly plants? Or is there another reason the trees are “trim as a hedge”?
Again, I think this shows that Tom's house is not a part of the forest, but clearly separated from it, and much more like the homely, well-ordered houses of the hobbits. Who exactly trims the edge or mows the lawn is another question. Considering Tom's powers, that may just happen all by itself.
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entmaiden
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Nov 30 2007, 7:56pm
Post #8 of 17
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The hobbits emerging from the Old Forest is like remembering a bad dream. In dreams, the fantastical becomes real and our minds accept the most absurd situations. When we wake, we laugh at ourselves, that we were afraid of something that seems silly in the light of day.
The Old Forest is like that bad dream. When the hobbits begin to see the signs of normal life - trimmed hedges, a small stream, they begin to think that the events in the Old Forest didn't really happen. It speaks to the nature of hobbits as folk who recover quickly from trauma.
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 30 2007, 9:10pm
Post #9 of 17
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Or falling back into a good dream.
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Remember the distinction Frodo makes when they return to the Shire? For him, the Shire is the dream.
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entmaiden
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Nov 30 2007, 9:38pm
Post #10 of 17
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but at this point in the story, the Old Forest is like a bad dream. Later, the terrors of the Old Forest pale in comparison to the situations the hobbits will face. But right now, this is the scariest situation they've encountered. Even the Black Riders didn't threaten the hobbits physically.
Each cloak was fastened about the neck with a brooch like a green leaf veined with silver.
`Are these magic cloaks?' asked Pippin, looking at them with wonder.
`I do not know what you mean by that,' answered the leader of the Elves.
NARF since 1974.
Balin Bows
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FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 30 2007, 10:11pm
Post #11 of 17
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"Like falling asleep again" is what Frodo says. I've never been able to figure out whether that's good or bad. Being asleep and dreaming aren't necessarily the same thing. Sleep can just represent the loss of sensation - which Frodo might be feeling without the Ring. And if Frodo does feel as if he's dreaming, can we tell whether it's a good or a bad dream?
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 30 2007, 10:56pm
Post #12 of 17
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I'm not sure it's (entirely) the Ring
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The Shire is asleep in a more general sense; like a sleeping person, the Shire is oblivious to what happens in the outside world that threatens and saves it. Having worn the Ring, Frodo is more careworn than he was, and can't go back to the life of bliss that he had before the story, despite that he "knew" the old histories. The Shire is asleep, but he isn't, and he can't really go back to sleep, except to go where evil cannot follow: to Valinor.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Curious
Gondolin
Dec 1 2007, 2:22am
Post #14 of 17
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This is similar to Beren's reasoning, but adds the folklore angle.
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a.s.
Doriath
Dec 3 2007, 2:38am
Post #15 of 17
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"hand in hand together we'll stand on the threshold
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of a dream."
Just a note that I'll be starting the next chapter discussion tomorrow evening (after work hours), and we'll be looking at "thresholds" and what they may or may not mean in myth and story.
I love this chapter ending!
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 8 2007, 6:03am
Post #16 of 17
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"When the night-shadows fall, then the door will open"
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That happens several times in the story. It might be worth contrasting doors reached at dusk (Crickhollow, Bombadil's house, Prancing Pony, Moria) to those reached at dawn (Minas Tirith, Paths of the Dead). And other times?
Here and at Bree they hear a song from the lighted house.
How does the river here compare with the river within the Forest: is this a natural evolution of rivers...?
I've hiked along a creek in these parts for a couple miles downstream, in which it changes from a rushing and boulder-strewn torrent to a slowly winding stream before it empties into a larger river. How far do the hobbits walk from the Willow to Bombadil's house?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Dec. 3-9 for "In the House of Tom Bombadil".
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Dec 8 2007, 2:00pm
Post #17 of 17
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They also reach Henneth Annûn at sunset, and Rivendell on the way home at night. But it cannot be determined whether it is day or night when Torech Ungol is entered, as all is dark, as if even time avoids that place of ancient evil. Given that both the "light" and the "dark" doors are entered at both times, there would seem to be no correlation there; but doors are reached more often at evening, signifying the end of the day's "work".
You know how quickly dusk can come upon you, when walking through woods! (That's my favorite time to take a walk: when the shades of the world are changing.) I'd guess at it taking them about an hour to get from Old Man Willow to the edge of the Forest, and Tom's house is perhaps another half-mile from there? So let's say it's about 2-3 miles. So that would be plenty of distance for the river to evolve naturally!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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