|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 27 2007, 1:16pm
Post #1 of 30
(3892 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The Old Forest III: This is the forest prime-evil
|
Can't Post
|
|
The Old Forest is supposedly a remnant of a greater forest which once covered the land from the Blue Mountains to Fangorn, and which fell under the influence of Morgoth. According to Treebeard, “I do not doubt there is some shadow of the Great Darkness lying there still away north”. And Bombadil “laid bare the hearts of trees and their thoughts, which were often dark and strange, and filled with a hatred of things that go free upon the earth, gnawing, biting, breaking, hacking, burning: destroyers and usurpers. It was not called the Old Forest without reason, for it was indeed ancient, a survivor of vast forgotten woods; and in it there lived yet, ageing no quicker than the hills, the fathers of the fathers of trees, remembering times when they were lords. The countless years had filled them with pride and rooted wisdom, and with malice.”
...”In fact long ago they attacked the Hedge: they came and planted themselves right by it, and leaned over it. But the hobbits came and cut down hundreds of trees, and made a great bonfire in the Forest, and burned all the ground in a long strip east of the Hedge. After that the trees gave up the attack, but they became very unfriendly.
In defense of the Forest, Hammond and Scull have this notation in their Reader’s Companion: In fact, the trees were naturally propagating. In a letter to the Daily Telgraph, 30 June 1972, Tolkien wrote: ‘In all my works I take the part of trees as against all their enemies. Lothlórien is beautiful because there the trees were loved; elsewhere forests are represented as awakening to consciousness of themselves. The Old Forest was hostile to two legged creatures because of the memory of many injuries’ (Letters, p. 419).
“Naturally propagating”, instead of attacking? What do you make of Hammond and Scull’s remark, considering the evidence?
Merry describes the trees as “sleepy and fairly quiet” in the daytime. As the foursome enter, they are “carefully avoiding the many writhing and interlacing roots”. This is a very anthropomorphic forest. What other words, phrases, and actions do you find in this chapter, which imply that the trees are acting with an intelligence of their own? How do they “torment” the Hobbits?
And - why is there “no undergrowth” in such an ancient forest, and no trees in the Bonfire Glade? (Only certain plants grow there: how appropriate is “fire-weed seeding into fluffy ashes”!)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
|
|
|
Curious
Gondolin
Nov 27 2007, 5:47pm
Post #2 of 30
(3530 views)
Shortcut
|
|
This is a highly artificial forest, as are all of Tolkien's forests.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Fires are essential to the health of a wild, uncultivated forest. To me, Tolkien's forests feel like the modern forests of England, which are not entirely wild, but managed to a greater or lesser extent. The Ents "weeded" Fangorn, and Galadriel carefully manages Lothlorien. Mirkwood of course is no longer managed by the elves, but new management has taken over, so it isn't exactly unmanaged either, just evil and hostile. Woody End is more or less managed by the hobbits, and perhaps in certain parts by the elves. After the Scouring, Sam takes over the management of the trees of the Shire, following the model of Galadriel.
The Old Forest is managed, at the moment, by Old Man Willow, until Bombadil intervenes. Although Bombadil does not manage the Old Forest aggressively, by sending Old Man Willow back to sleep he effectively manages the rest of the forest as well by removing Old Man Willow's influence. Bombadil is the kind of manager Tolkien generally favors, doing as little as possible as rarely as possible, and mostly interested in other matters. But no one manages Bombadil, and Bombadil can, when necessary, manage anyone in the Old Forest or Barrow Downs.
Trees in the Primary World rarely live for thousands of years, even in virgin forests. Hundreds of years is more likely, and when an old tree falls it makes way for new growth. But in Middle-earth the oldest trees, like the oldest people, may be immortal, if they are left in peace. The fathers of the fathers of trees remember times when they were lords. It isn't just the forest that is old, but the trees in the forest that are each old. One wonders whether there are any young trees to be found, especially since there is no undergrowth.
I don't agree with Hammond and Scull that the trees were naturally propogating when they planted themselves by the Hedge, if by that they mean that new young trees were growing there. That's not how Merry describes it at all, and that's not what happens after the hobbits counterattack. But Tolkien did sympathize with the trees. The trees of the Old Forest are not orcs, but huorns without an ent to keep them in line. But for the most part they are sleepy, except when aroused by Old Man Willow, who in turn, as we learn in Unfinished Tales, may have been aroused by the Nazgul.
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 27 2007, 6:01pm
Post #3 of 30
(3525 views)
Shortcut
|
|
It's not the forest that changes...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
it's the way people respond to forests that changes.
It was not called the Old Forest without reason, for it was indeed ancient, a survivor of vast forgotten woods; and in it there lived yet, ageing no quicker than the hills, the fathers of the fathers of trees, remembering times when they were lords.
That's how I think of it, anyway. Primeval forests really were "lords" - they were frightening, overpowering places in the days when the land was mostly covered by trees. Early men had to battle the trees to carve out a home for themselves, and the trees must have seemed more powerful than they were, always encroaching, always seeming to be watching and waiting for their chance to take back your bit of cleared land.
many writhing and interlacing roots
I remember back in the discussion of Tolkien illustration there was a very evocative drawing by Tolkien of these writhing, snakelike roots. I think it was on the old board, though, and I can't remember how to get there!
And - why is there “no undergrowth” in such an ancient forest, and no trees in the Bonfire Glade? (Only certain plants grow there: how appropriate is “fire-weed seeding into fluffy ashes”!)
Very dense forests don't permit enough light for undergrowth (I saw a programme about this just the other day - the presenter was in a dense beech wood, and the floor of it was quite bare). Of course that just makes those writhing roots all the more obvious! I don't know about the Bonfire Glade, but there are natural clearings in forests, I think. Presumably there's some unseen condition that makes the ground unsuitable - soil too shallow? ground too boggy? I expect fireweed is much more tolerant about its conditions than trees would be.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
|
|
|
a.s.
Doriath
Nov 27 2007, 6:02pm
Post #4 of 30
(3544 views)
Shortcut
|
LOL
My nick on Torn is a form of a Gaelic name for willowherb, a wildflower otherwise known as fireweed.
Fireweed is known for thriving in places that have been cleared by fire (or bomb), so it is very possible that fireweed was the first plant back in a place that was cleared by fire.
See here, too.
a.s. (Just call me Rosebay!!)
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
(This post was edited by a.s. on Nov 27 2007, 6:12pm)
|
|
|
dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 28 2007, 2:36am
Post #5 of 30
(3496 views)
Shortcut
|
That sounds like the name of a Hobbit-lass in Bree! 
And thank you for those links!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
|
|
|
Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 28 2007, 3:23am
Post #6 of 30
(3493 views)
Shortcut
|
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
|
|
|
visualweasel
Nargothrond
Nov 28 2007, 7:26pm
Post #7 of 30
(3496 views)
Shortcut
|
This is the forest prime-evil
Nice one, Dernwyn. Nobody has commented on it yet, but were you echoing Henry Wadsworth Longfellow's "Evangeline" deliberately? Even if it was just an "accident of cleverness", it's quite appropriate:
This is the forest primeval. The murmuring pines and the hemlocks,
Bearded with moss, and in garments green, indistinct in the twilight,
Stand like Druids of eld, with voices sad and prophetic,
Stand like harpers hoar, with beards that rest on their bosoms.
Also, of course, Longfellow was heavily influenced by the Finnish Kalevala, which as we all know was a very prominent source for Tolkien as well. In Longfellow's case, the influence is seen in "The Song of Hiawatha"*, written in the meter of the Kalevala. Longfellow also referred to it as his "Indian Edda", according to Wikipedia — the Norse Eddas being another point of contact with Tolkien. And here's another one: Tolkien was influenced (both early on as well as later, negatively, in the case of Smith of Wootton Major) by George MacDonald, who was — you guessed it — a friend of Longfellow's.
I have thought of writing an essay that argues a case for calling Tolkien and Longfellow "literary cousins" (first and second, of course, hahae). Like cousins, all these connections between them are all once- or twice-removed; and I'm not sure what conclusion I would hope to reach — it isn't as if I'm suggesting that Longfellow had any direct influence on Tolkien — but it could be an interesting intellectual exercise. They both seemed to enjoy similar influences and the reworking of them into alternate mythological settings. There's a very satisfying synergy in that, I think: Tolkien a mythographer of the Old World, Longfellow a mythographer of the New World. I even have a complicated-looking diagram depicting the relationships. I'm big into diagrams, hahae.
* There has been some debate about this, but I don't think there's much doubt about it now.
Jason Fisher
Lingwë - Musings of a Fish
|
|
|
dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 29 2007, 1:37am
Post #8 of 30
(3493 views)
Shortcut
|
I do enjoy a good pun, even though Longfellow's forest has more of a Fangorn flavor to it. Good to see that someone picked up on it!
I had no idea that "Hiawatha" had Kalevala "roots"!
Interesting, that idea of "literary cousin-ship" between Tolkien and Longfellow. They were both tellers of epic tales; a look into their common "ancestral roots" might indeed be noteworthy.
And it's possible that Longfellow and MacDonald's friendship may have involved no literary influence, either way; after all, children's author extraordinaire Cynthia Rylant is partner to Dav Pilkey, creator of Captain Underpants...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
|
|
|
a.s.
Doriath
Nov 29 2007, 2:21am
Post #9 of 30
(3475 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Longfellow was also, of course, a professor of
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
language, specifically Modern Language (at Harvard).
Tolkien once talked about his fame for writing LOTR as akin to Longfellow's for writing Hiawatha:
Interviewer: Do you wish to be remembered chiefly by your writings on philology and other matters or by The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit?
Tolkien: I shouldn't have thought there was much choice in the matter - if I'm remembered at all it will be by The Lord of the Rings I take it. Won't it be rather like the case of Longfellow, people remember Longfellow wrote Hiawatha, quite forget he was a Professor of Modern Languages!
Not sure if this is actually appropos of similarities between the two, though...more just a cool fact!
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 30 2007, 2:24am
Post #11 of 30
(3475 views)
Shortcut
|
There certainly is:
Then deep folds in the ground were discovered unexpectedly ... choked with brambles ... Each time they climbed down they found the hollow filled with thick bushes and matted undergrowth, which somehow would not yield to the left, but only gave way when they turned to the right; and they had to go some distance along the bottom before they could find a way up the further bank.
But there may be no young trees; I don't know.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Nov. 26-Dec. 2 for "The Old Forest".
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 30 2007, 2:37am
Post #12 of 30
(3469 views)
Shortcut
|
was discussed on the new boards, here, by squire. It's a stylized image, but it does show those tangled roots you describe.
I think it was on the old board, though, and I can't remember how to get there!
You can always access the old boards through Altaira's posts on the Welcome board, where she has also posted a link to a collection of old posts. Here on the new boards, it's possible to scroll back to the new beginning without taxing the server, but it would probably still be helpful to have a list of Reading Room posts for quick reference; In January, I'll post such a list for 2007.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Nov. 26-Dec. 2 for "The Old Forest".
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 30 2007, 2:44am
Post #13 of 30
(3477 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Different kinds of "hemlock", however.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
I'm quite sure you know this, but Longfellow's "hemlock" in the passage you quote is an evergreen tree, while the hemlock that Tolkien describes in the Old Forest ("stalky and faded hemlocks and wood-parsley, fire-weed seeding into fluffy ashes, and rampant nettles and thistles") and also famously in the story of Beren and Lúthien, is a flowering plant akin to Queen Anne's Lace.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Nov. 26-Dec. 2 for "The Old Forest".
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 30 2007, 4:59am
Post #14 of 30
(3469 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Gated hedge, trees, open circle.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It is odd that when the hobbits reach the bonfire glade, passing by gate through a hedge, then through some trees and entering a "wide circular space", they've repeated the end of their journey of the previous evening, when they turned from the lane to the Crickhollow house. There the description seemed unnecessary:
At last they came to a narrow gate in a thick hedge. Nothing could be seen of the house in the dark: it stood back from the lane in the middle of a wide circle of lawn surrounded by a belt of low trees inside the outer hedge.
The house could be in "an out-of-the-way corner of the country" and away from prying eyes without these details. But I can think of no reason for this particular parallel -- just a coincidence?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Nov. 26-Dec. 2 for "The Old Forest".
|
|
|
Curious
Gondolin
Nov 30 2007, 8:12am
Post #15 of 30
(3466 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I stand corrected, once again!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Let me change that to no young trees. But what about that undergrowth? Are the brambles and bushes and matted undergrowth as "awake" as the trees? It would seem so, wouldn't it?
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Doriath
Nov 30 2007, 8:46am
Post #16 of 30
(3463 views)
Shortcut
|
Is Tolkien doing what we've noticed Jackson doing in the films - repeating the visual image of the Ring, by showing the hobbits enclosed in circles? Sometimes the circles can seem protective (hobbit doors, entrances to certain tunnels, the circular lawn at Crickhollow, the bonfire glade) but other times they are dangerously constricting and emprisoning (Shelob's Lair for example). The images of circles echo not just the shape of the Ring, but the ambivalence of it too, from apparently virtuous, protective "magic ring" to, later, an inescapable prison.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
|
|
|
Curious
Gondolin
Nov 30 2007, 12:07pm
Post #17 of 30
(3446 views)
Shortcut
|
|
It's an interesting idea, but I'm not convinced.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The Shire, of course, has many round doors and windows. But it also has many square fields. When I think of Tolkien's imagery I tend to think first of color, rather than shape. But maybe I've been missing something.
|
|
|
Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 30 2007, 5:58pm
Post #18 of 30
(3471 views)
Shortcut
|
Poison hemlock, genus Conium, is an herb in the carrot family. The tree hemlock, genus Tsuga, is in the pine family. I don't know how these two plants wound up with the same common name...
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
|
|
|
silneldor
Gondolin
Dec 2 2007, 1:37am
Post #19 of 30
(3449 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Interesting fact. Thank you Beren.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
"Tolkien, like Lewis, believed that, through story, the real world would become a more magical place, full of meaning. We see its patterns and colors in a fresh way. The recovery of a true view of the world applies both to individual things, like hills and stones, and to the cosmic - the depths of space and time itself. For in sub-creation, in Tolkien's view, there is a "survey" of space and time. Reality is captured on a miniature scale. Through stories like The Lord of the Rings, a renewed view of things is given, illuminating the homely, the spiritial, the physical, and the moral dimensions of the world."
Tolkien and C.S. Lewis- The Gift of Friendship -Duriez
May the grace of Manwë let us soar with eagle's wings!
In the air, among the clouds in the sky
Here is where the birds of Manwe fly
Looking at the land, and the water that flows
The true beauty of earth shows
With the stars of Varda lighting my way
In all the realms this is where I stay
In the realm of Manwë Súlimo
By El~Cugu
From the website: 'The Realm of Manwe'
Season's greetings with thoughts of Rivendell
|
|
|
squire
Gondolin
Dec 2 2007, 2:33am
Post #20 of 30
(3458 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Hemlock by any other name can kill you.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The best I can find out in a quick web search (wikipedia, sorry!) is that people thought the newly discovered pinetree's needles, when crushed, smelled a little like the poisonous hemlock herb. No actual source is given for this, surprise, surprise.
Most etymology websites only treat the word as it relates to the poisonous European plant. If, as above, the North American pine variant was named "hemlock" by (presumably) the early colonists to evoke the European original, it would seem sensible for dictionaries to say why. But they don't. Not online, anyway.
I remember being confused for a long time by the two terms. I climbed in hemlock trees as a kid, and then began to wonder if I was in danger after hearing how Socrates drank hemlock to commit suicide. Things were not helped when I found out that an infusion of hemlock needles is a Native American curative.
No one in the U.S. knew what European hemlock's meaning was when I was growing up, and it seems clear that no one in Europe even now gives a second thought to our pine tree's odd name, if they've ever even heard of it.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'.
Footeramas: The 3rd TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion; and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
|
|
|
Kimi
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Dec 2 2007, 3:10am
Post #21 of 30
(3442 views)
Shortcut
|
The North American tree was named after the European plant because of "the resemblance of its branches in tenuity and position to the leaves of the common hemlock".
"Tenuity" means thinness, in case anyone was wondering.
The word hemlock is Old English "of obscure origin: no cognate word is found in the other langs." (also from the OED). I can imagine JRRT enjoying that fact.
  
Promises to Keep: a novel set in 19th Century New Zealand.
The Passing of Mistress Rose
Do we find happiness so often that we should turn it off the box when it happens to sit there?
- A Room With a View
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 2 2007, 3:14am
Post #22 of 30
(3447 views)
Shortcut
|
It gives citations back to "Caroll, Charles. Journal during his mission to Canada 1776 (in B. Mayer, Memoir 1845)" and this definition:
A North American tree, Abies canadensis, more fully hemlock fir, h. spruce, ‘so called from the resemblance of its branches in tenuity and position to the leaves of the common hemlock’.
It's not clear who is being quoted in the definition. The quote attributed to Caroll is "Several rocky islands appear in the lake [George, N.Y.], covered with a species of cedar here called hemlock" which means the term was in use before 1776.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Nov. 26-Dec. 2 for "The Old Forest".
|
|
|
Beren IV
Mithlond
Dec 2 2007, 6:12am
Post #23 of 30
(3437 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I can at least provide a second to that:
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
From the Gymnosperm Database (www.conifers.org):
"The Latin name [Tsuga] is from the Japanese name for T. sieboldii. The common English name 'Hemlock' refers to the percieved similarity in the smell of the crushed foliage of the species first known in Britain (T. canadensis) to that of the very poisonous umbelliferous herb water hemlock Conium maculatum. The two plants are of course totally unrelated, and Tsuga is not poisonous (M.P. Frankis, e-mail comm. 7-Feb-1999)."
I should note that while Tsuga may not be poisonous in the way that Conium is, all of the members of the pine family have lots of tanins in their leaves and bark (e.g. terpentine), and this would be as true for hemlock as for any of the other genera (pine, spruce, fir, larch, [true] cedar, ect.).
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
|
|
|
FarFromHome
Doriath
Dec 2 2007, 10:16am
Post #24 of 30
(3453 views)
Shortcut
|
I find it very hard to get posts on the old boards to open, and I've also run up against something that I can't figure out - how do you get the old boards to go back more than a year? It's been more than a year now since they closed, so I find I can't get back past the first page!
I did try a Search of the new boards but drew a blank. I guess I just haven't got the knack. I'm better with Google, though, and did find the image I was thinking of - I posted it in the following thread, here.
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew,
and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth;
and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore
glimmered and was lost.
|
|
|
N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Dec 2 2007, 5:39pm
Post #25 of 30
(3477 views)
Shortcut
|
I find it very hard to get posts on the old boards to open, and I've also run up against something that I can't figure out - how do you get the old boards to go back more than a year? It's been more than a year now since they closed, so I find I can't get back past the first page!
Since the old boards closed for business, I find it generally easier to open any particular post. Fortunately, all threads for the Reading Room back to May 2002 are linked either in hatster's archive or in this old Feedback post, because it is difficult to open the old Reading Room board to view more than its current nominal default of "1 year ago" (the old boards closed in last March, so theoretically today one ought to be seeing the RR back to last December 3, but its only showing back to February). To look farther back, select the "Display messages from" drop-down option for some other period of time, and what will appear will have a URL like this, but without the spaces:
http:// archives.theonering.net/rumour_mill/readingroom/?expire= X
Where X is a number of hours. Then plug in multiples of 720 (one month's worth of hours) or 8760 (one year's worth of hours) to look back in time. Doing the latter brings up a genuine year, i.e. back to last December, when squire was discussing Tolkien's brigands (took about ten seconds to open on my computer). Shortly after the old boards closed, several people attempted to open them as far back as they would go, and got to January 2001 (older posts were apparently lost). But I found that took a looong time to open. And possibly it would strain even the new server where the old boards are now kept, given that you're asking the board to display some 150,000 posts all at the same time.
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009!
Join us Nov. 26-Dec. 2 for "The Old Forest".
|
|
|
|
|
(Apologies if that offends anybody.) 
1
