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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Nov 19 2007, 11:02pm
Post #26 of 52
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The selection process still sounds farcical to me. But yet Eowyn does not hesitate in leading the people to Dunharrow. She performs that duty well. However, when the Rohirrim ride off to Gondor to decide the fate of all she is left behind like excess baggage in Dunharrow. She's a good three days journey from Edoras, the seat of power. And guess where Erkenbrand just happens to be staying? There's no doubt as to who's *really* left in charge of Rohan! And in the three days it will take her to get back her exalted position is going to be pretty moot anyway, whichever way the Battle of the Pelennor goes. She's going to arrive in Edoras just in time to organize a reception for the returning Rohirrm, or for the conquering orcs.
Eowyn is as much a Queen of Rohan as David Rice Atchison was a President of the United States.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Morwen
Nargothrond
Nov 20 2007, 3:58am
Post #27 of 52
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Darkstone, you've brought up several things that I was unaware of. Now, when I get to that part of the book again, I'm sure I will have new feelings not only about Eowyn, but about Theoden. Maybe he wasn't such a caring and loving uncle after all. No wonder Eowyn developed a crush on Aragorn if she was expected to marry Erkenbrand! Now I'm wondering if Eomer only let her marry Faramir because the marriage was politcally advantageous for Rohan.
This is all slightly depressing (*sniff*).
Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you; you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 20 2007, 5:16am
Post #28 of 52
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However, when the Rohirrim ride off to Gondor to decide the fate of all she is left behind like excess baggage in Dunharrow. She's a good three days journey from Edoras, the seat of power.
Not three days: on March 10, Théoden rides from Dunharrow "in the dim morning" and when he arrives at Edoras that same day, it is "but noon by the hour".
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Nov 20 2007, 2:28pm
Post #29 of 52
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Guy travel time versus gal travel time
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Oh, sure. All Theoden has to do is jump out of bed, let his servants dress him, go down and eat the breakfast that's waiting for him, then hop on his horse and (assuming he doesn't have prostate trouble) ride straight to Edoras without stopping. Easy-peasey. For a guy.
Eowyn has to get up early, get dressed by herself, light the fires, make breakfast, feed the men, pack three days worth of food for 6000, farewell the men, change the bandages of the wounded, feed the men, women, and children left behind, eat herself, wash and pack away the dishes, pack up the bedding, pack everything in the wagons, get everyone organized in marching order, police the campsite for any remaining trash and make sure nothing and no one's been left behind. *Then* she gets underway to Edoras. Of course the people have to stop to eat, use the bathroom, feed the babies, change diapers, change the dressings of the wounded. And the whole group is travelling no faster than its slowest member, say, 90 year old grampa pushing a wheelbarrow with a 400 pound load. Somehow I doubt she's going to make Edoras in a day much less half a one. Which means the entire group is going to have to stop, unpack, set up camp, get everyone fed, get everyone's bedding set up, read bedtime stories to the kids, then in the morning Eowyn is going to have to get up, get dressed by herself, light the fires, etc. etc.
Three days travel time seems more than reasonable. (Normally gals would get a 50% reduction in travel time since they'll stop and ask for directions, but since Eowyn has been this road before I decided not to factor that in.)
Yep, when the family goes on vacation it's good to be the guy. Get up early in the morning, gulp down the hot breakfast waiting on the table, jump in the already packed car, and drive the 1066 miles from Dallas to Phoenix without stopping. (And we guys wonder why some wives murder their husbands in their sleep.)
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******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Nov 20 2007, 2:33pm)
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Lily Fairbairn
Gondolin
Nov 20 2007, 7:59pm
Post #30 of 52
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I know many people agree with you, but they tend to be underrepresented in the Reading Room
I'm one of the people who find book-Aragorn rather arrogant, for the reasons already cited, but I find it very difficult to do more than lurk in the Reading Room -- there's just too much material, wonderful as it is, to keep up with!
Suffice it to say here that the scene with the palantir is the one I'll often cite as an example of Aragorn's arrogance. He doesn't say to Gandalf, this thing is my responsibility, I'll take it and see if I can help our cause with it. No, he goes on about it being his right to have it, and snaps at his long-suffering companions. That really turned me off -- along with some other bits, like the confrontation with Eomer.
As Darkstone points out, the bragging and ambitious hero is from an antiquated tradition and doesn't work well for modern audiences. (Although one of the many things I like about LotR is its air of antiquity. So go figure  )
Overall I like book-Aragorn just fine, but I like the movie interpretation as well. I know that many people agree with me on that, but they also may be a bit under-represented in the RR.
It goes to show you how vital the story is, that we'll have these same discussions repeatedly, like the refrains to a long ballad.
* * * * * * *
Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!"
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 20 2007, 8:46pm
Post #31 of 52
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Thanks for speaking up as well!
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I never found Aragorn's behavior offensive within the context of LotR, but I might if someone started behaving the same way at work. And I'm sure my wife would not appreciate it if I behaved that way with her!
As I said to Darkstone, I've always felt that Aragorn's weakest moment at the Hill of Seeing, when he fears to let Frodo go without him as Gandalf would do (and indeed does do, although from long distance). And I feel that Aragorn's decision to use the palantir is one of his strongest moments in the book. However I agree with you that his rebuke of Gimli can be off putting, and that is toned down from the original version! As for Aragorn's encounter with Eomer, it's a guy thing.
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Lily Fairbairn
Gondolin
Nov 20 2007, 9:19pm
Post #32 of 52
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It's a guy thing.
Tell me about it -- I have two sons!
* * * * * * *
Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!"
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 20 2007, 9:52pm
Post #33 of 52
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that you have a quote from that Aragorn/Eomer encounter in your footer!
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 20 2007, 10:02pm
Post #34 of 52
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"Aragorn is most admirable and lovable..."
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"...when he loses then regains his self-control, as at Edoras." That was squire's assessment, anyway, summarizing his earlier comments here.
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Lily Fairbairn
Gondolin
Nov 20 2007, 10:22pm
Post #36 of 52
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I admire that particular sentiment -- even though a morsel of that sentiment's context sets my teeth on edge. It's not Aragorn's lineage in and of itself that I object to, after all!
* * * * * * *
Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!"
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Lily Fairbairn
Gondolin
Nov 20 2007, 10:28pm
Post #37 of 52
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But lovable -- well, that comes and goes. Not that I haven't debated this issue with squire more than once!
I remember when my best friend and I first read LotR, in our teens, we had massive crushes on Aragorn. (And Faramir, of course!) She commented once, though, that she liked Aragorn as Strider better than as Elessar.
It's in my more recent re-readings that I've picked up on that tint (or taint, if you will) of arrogance. I suspect this says more about my own unfortunately rather cynical mood toward real life leadership issues than it does about Tolkien or his characters.
* * * * * * *
Do we walk in legends or on the green earth in the daylight?
A man may do both. For not we but those who come after will make the legends of our time. The green earth, say you? That is a mighty matter of legend, though you tread it under the light of day!"
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 20 2007, 10:36pm
Post #38 of 52
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I certainly can't imagine him using the "I am Isildur's heir" tactic on her.
Remember their first meeting?
‘"Estel I was called," he said; "but I am Aragorn, Arathorn's son, Isildur's Heir, Lord of the Dúnedain"; yet even in the saying he felt that this high lineage, in which his heart had rejoiced, was now of little worth, and as nothing compared to her dignity and loveliness.
‘But she laughed merrily and said: "Then we are akin from afar. For I am Arwen Elrond's daughter, and am named also Undómiel."
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 20 2007, 11:33pm
Post #39 of 52
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And people say Aragorn is one-dimensional.
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I find him quite complex and ambiguous. I still don't know whether Aragorn genuinely lost his temper at Edoras or not. We have some people who think he was at his best when he used the palantir, and others who think he was at his worst. We have some people who think he was at his best at the Hill of Sight, and others who think he was at his worst. We have some people who think he put Boromir in his place at Elrond's council, and others who think he was humble and self-depreciating. It didn't come up in the present discussion, but some people think Aragorn overcame the temptation to take the Ring from the hobbits, while others think he never really had to face the temptation because Frodo did not offer it to him. Some people think he treated Eowyn gently and fairly, and others think he treated her roughly and unfairly. I find Aragorn to be quite consistent -- consistently mysterious to those of us who cannot get inside his head!
(This post was edited by Curious on Nov 20 2007, 11:37pm)
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 21 2007, 12:45am
Post #40 of 52
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And note how Aragorn is softened in Appendix A because
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we do, finally, see inside his head.
... yet even in the saying he felt that this high lineage, in which his heart had rejoiced, was now of little worth, and as nothing compared to her dignity and loveliness
We get no such insights into Aragorn's thinking in the text of LotR.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Nov 21 2007, 2:49pm
Post #41 of 52
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Aragorn and Eomer would have opposed the marriage
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...at least if they viewed it from a political standpoint.
First of all keep in mind the Eastfold as a bastion of conservatives while the Westfold is a bunch of liberals.
Now the previous kings Fengel and Thengel tried to "liberalize" (or Gondorize) Rohan, including bringing a bunch of the customs (and language) of Gondor into the court. Needless to say, that caused a great deal of resentment in the Eastfold. One of the reasons for Theoden's great popularity is that the first thing he did when he became king was to return the court to its Rohirric roots.
Now as Eomer is new to the throne, it would probably cause a lot of unrest in the Eastfold for his sister to marry a (gasp!) Gondorian. Indeed, it would be better for her to marry Erkenbrand to cement the two halves of Rohan. And similarly, as Eowyn points out to Faramir, it would hardly be wise politically for a sophisticated and cultured Gondorian of high rank to marry a wild and uncouth shieldmaiden.
But what is wonderful is that Eomer and Aragorn ignore the political disavantages. They allow the two to marry anyway. And of course what is best of all, and what wins Eowyn's heart, is that where previously everyone else in her life has told her what to do and expected her to do it, Faramir is the only one who actually *asks* her.
'Yet I will wed with the White Lady of Rohan, if it be her will. And if she will, then let us cross the River and in happier days let us dwell in fair Ithilien and there make a garden. All things will grow with joy there, if the White Lady comes.'
No wonder she falls for him.
BTW, did you know Morwen of Lossarnach was seventeen years younger than Thengel when they got married? May-December marriages were common in Anglo-Saxon, er, that is, Rohirric culture.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 21 2007, 3:01pm
Post #42 of 52
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the Westmarch joined with the Dunlendings in rebelling, just as the eastern and southern foes to whom King Elessar foolishly granted amnesty attacked the still-recovering and unwieldy empire. But King Elessar settled matters by inviting the leaders of his enemies to a peace council, where he executed them all.
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Morwen
Nargothrond
Nov 21 2007, 5:49pm
Post #43 of 52
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Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you; you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out.
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Nov 21 2007, 6:06pm
Post #44 of 52
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Some famous Renaissance noblewoman did the same thing to her husband's enemies when they assassinated him. She invited them all to a magnificent feast for peace and marriage talks. Then in the middle of the feast she excused herself and had archers on the mezzanine fill them all with arrows. G. Gordon Liddy mentions her in his autobiography.
******************************************
The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 21 2007, 6:29pm
Post #45 of 52
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Yes, it happens all the time in history.
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But LotR is not historical fiction, it is feigned historical fiction, operating in a world which resembles ours, but is different in many ways.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 21 2007, 8:10pm
Post #46 of 52
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First of all keep in mind the Eastfold is a bastion of conservatives while the Westfold is a bunch of liberals. Where is this stated or implied?
Now the previous kings Fengel and Thengel tried to "liberalize" (or Gondorize) Rohan, including bringing a bunch of the customs (and language) of Gondor into the court. I think that is true only of Thengel, not his father Fengel, who "was greedy of food and of gold, and at strife with his marshals, and with his children. Thengel, his third child and only son, left Rohan when he came to manhood and lived long in Gondor, and won honour in the service of Turgon" (App. A III).
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Darkstone
Elvenhome
Nov 21 2007, 8:21pm
Post #47 of 52
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But LotR is not historical fiction, it is feigned historical fiction, operating in a world which resembles ours, but is different in many ways.
But it's going to fall apart without verisimilitude, or, as Stephen Colbert puts it, "truthiness". Otherwise the reader won't buy The Green Sun. Or a noble Aragorn.
I view the fact that some of us can enjoy indulging in constructing a between-the-lines reality with LOTR a great testament to the power of his writing, and to the believablity of his secondary world. Of course I have quite frequently been rebuked on more than one occasion on how "precious" and "pointless" such an exercise is. But from his responses to inquiries from fans, and from his unfinished tales scribbled on rainy days, it would appear that Tolkien enjoyed indulging in the same exercises as well. Frankly I like the company I'm in.
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The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 21 2007, 8:26pm
Post #48 of 52
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I have nothing against fan fiction.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 21 2007, 8:32pm
Post #49 of 52
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That's Appendix A.II not A.III. Sorry for the error.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 21 2007, 8:41pm
Post #50 of 52
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But from [Tolkien's] responses to inquiries from fans, and from his unfinished tales scribbled on rainy days, it would appear that Tolkien enjoyed indulging in the same exercises as well. I'll second Curious's response, while noting that Tolkien himself worried about that "vast game" aspect of his creation.
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