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Saelind
Menegroth
Nov 15 2007, 4:00am
Post #1 of 14
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Chapter 4 A Short Cut to Mushrooms III
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Frodo finishes his breakfast and the trio is finally off. Frodo decides to avoid the road.
Pippin warns him that the country is rough and that “’Short cuts make long delays’”
“’It is less easy to find people in the woods and fields,‘ answered Frodo. ‘And if you are supposed to be on the road, there is some chance that you will be looked for on the road and not off it.’” Makes sense to me…
Of course, Pippin’s real motivation for not leaving the road was that he was hoping to stop by the Golden Perch for the best beer in the Eastfarthing. Frodo knows this would be a bad idea and looks to Sam for back-up. Sam agrees with his master but not without some regret of his own. We have the tension between the deadly earnestness of Frodo’s flight with the Ring and the hobbit’s love of food and drink. Also, are you able to follow the route of the trio with the map provided in your book?
The hobbits make it through one section of thicket and when Sam looks back he sees a Black Rider. They plunge further into the wilderness. I’m sure some wise participant knows what part of England Tolkien is describing in these passages, care to enlighten the rest of us?
I’m sure there are hikers here. Any experiences similar to that of the hobbits (rough land, rain, getting lost)? How about the terrain Tolkien describes, have you seen anything that resembles it?
The hobbits stop for lunch. “When it came to make their meal, they found that the Elves had filled their bottles with a clear drink, pale golden in colour: it had the scent of a honey made of many flowers, and was wonderfully refreshing. Very soon they were laughing, and snapping their fingers at rain, and at Black Riders. The last few miles, they felt, would soon be behind them.” So, what do you think the Elves put in their bottles? Are the hobbits a bit tipsy perhaps?
Sam and Pippin are inspired to sing. Part of this song was used in the movie ROTK. Do you like this little bit of song in the middle of the text? Did you recognize it in the movie and remember its original placement?
“They stopped short and suddenly Frodo sprang to his feet. A long-drawn wail came down the wind, like the cry of some evil and lonely creature. It rose and fell, and ended on a high piercing not. Even as they sat and stood, as if suddenly frozen, it was answered by another cry, fainter and further off, but no less chilling to the blood. There was then a silence, broken only by the sound of the wind in the leaves.
‘And what do you think that was?’ Pippin asked at last, trying to speak lightly, but quavering a little. ‘If it was a bird, it was one that I never heard in the Shire before.’
‘It was not a bird or beast,’ said Frodo. ‘It was a call, or a signal-there were words in that cry, though I could not catch them. But no hobbit has such a voice.’”
Does this passage give you chills? Why do you think Frodo thought it was a call? How could he tell that it had words in it?
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Penthe
Mithlond
Nov 15 2007, 5:23am
Post #2 of 14
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Short cuts make long delays if Nazgul are about.
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I'm not sure that Frodo has made the right choice here. Strider comments later that the Nazgul have less strength in populated areas. The Golden Perch may have been a better option, even if Frodo was looked for on the road. If you are looked for on the road it is quite likely that the watcher may notice you leaving it, especially if he can scent you. It is also harder to complete secret and underhanded doings in a pub than in the middle of a forest. We learn later that Sauron is not yet ready to declare the Nazgul openly to the world, which presumably includes hobbits who know wizards.
But it's all part and parcel of Frodo's kerfuffling about instead of making sensible choices and acting. He is indeed acting as if he is part of a nice walking party rather than in a desperate dash for safety.
Getting lost in thick scrub is quite normal when hiking, I've found. I'm much more of a sticking to the path person myself. But ending up knee-deep in a creek that you're not sure is the right creek seems pretty accurate to me.
I quite like cheese, you know.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 15 2007, 6:32am
Post #3 of 14
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But they'd already left the road.
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The elves' clearing is some way off the lane to Woodhall, up a "green ride ... through the thickets on the right". And the hobbits had been twice overtaken by a Rider on the "little-used" road, and so probably would have been again, before ever they reached Woodhall or Stock (depending which road they were on, as noted in the discussion with visualweasel below). It seems Frodo's decision was the best one to get them safely to the ferry. The question is, why'd he make that unlikely choice?
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a.s.
Doriath
Nov 15 2007, 11:36am
Post #4 of 14
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Does this passage give you chills? Why do you think Frodo thought it was a call? How could he tell that it had words in it?
Oh yes, it gives me chills. There's something after these hobbits!
He knew it was a call (I think Pippin did, too, and is just being light about it to raise his courage) because it was given and then answered back in the same manner. I think Frodo can recognize there are words for two reasons: one, he's studied other languages a bit with Bilbo, not enough to be proficient maybe, but enough to recognize the cadence of speech. Two, he's wearing the Ring, which might be influencing his ability to ascertain the call of Mordor.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 15 2007, 11:59am
Post #5 of 14
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Also, are you able to follow the route of the trio with the map provided in your book?
As I recall, they mean to head east but end up turning south instead, until they get to Farmer Maggot's land.
I’m sure there are hikers here. Any experiences similar to that of the hobbits (rough land, rain, getting lost)? How about the terrain Tolkien describes, have you seen anything that resembles it?
I rarely ventured off the path, but I do remember taking a wrong turn and finding myself miles from where I was supposed to be.
So, what do you think the Elves put in their bottles? Are the hobbits a bit tipsy perhaps?
They do sound a bit tipsy, don't they? But perhaps elven drinks make you merry without making you tipsy.
Does this passage give you chills? Why do you think Frodo thought it was a call? How could he tell that it had words in it?
Sure it gives me chills. Perhaps Frodo recognized words in the call because he knew elvish, and even if the Nazgul were not using elvish, Frodo was more adept at recognizing a foreign languages because he knew elvish.
I'll just note my UUT that the trees in the Shire help protect the hobbits from the Black Riders, not just passively but actively. Here the hobbits are steered away from their intended path and toward Farmer Maggot, just as in the Old Forest they are steered away from their intended path and toward Old Man Willow.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Nov 15 2007, 1:25pm
Post #6 of 14
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What a way to send a chill up one's spine! Yes, I think you're right on why Frodo could make out words in the call: his linguistic training, and the influence of the Ring. Not quite a "universal translator", that, but it is "aware".
I recall mention of this the last time we went through this chapter: Tolkien must have known of whistling languages, a genuine form of high-pitched speech. So Black Riders using a similar means to communicate (I wonder if wraiths are capable of whistling?) makes sense: they're not trying to spook anyone, but it sure comes out sounding like that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I desired dragons with a profound desire"
"It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?"
-Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Cactus Wren
Lindon
Nov 16 2007, 10:18am
Post #7 of 14
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Of course, Pippin’s real motivation for not leaving the road was that he was hoping to stop by the Golden Perch for the best beer in the Eastfarthing. Frodo knows this would be a bad idea and looks to Sam for back-up. Sam agrees with his master but not without some regret of his own. We have the tension between the deadly earnestness of Frodo’s flight with the Ring and the hobbit’s love of food and drink. Also, are you able to follow the route of the trio with the map provided in your book?
Nope. Not for lack of trying, but I always manage to get completely lost in the books unless I can at nearly every page flip back and forth between Tolkien and Fonstad.
(Am I the only person who still wants to scoop up Sean Bean's voice and lick it off a spoon like chocolate sauce?)
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 20 2007, 12:34am
Post #8 of 14
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or, as squire would say, good old-fashioned ghost stories! 
The Black Riders are at the moment made out to be unfamiliar and alien as well as obviously evil. That is why they are scary.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Curious
Gondolin
Nov 20 2007, 1:03am
Post #9 of 14
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I think that was me who said that.
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or, as squire would say, good old-fashioned ghost stories!
Although maybe squire did too.
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Beren IV
Mithlond
Nov 20 2007, 1:25am
Post #10 of 14
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Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 21 2007, 9:28pm
Post #11 of 14
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In this thread from the previous chapter.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 21 2007, 9:32pm
Post #12 of 14
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From "The Choices of Master Samwise":
Perhaps the Ring gave understanding of tongues, or simply understanding, especially of the servants of Sauron its maker, so that if he gave heed, he understood and translated the thought to himself.
Unlike Frodo here, Sam is wearing the Ring on that occasion, but perhaps merely carrying it is what tells Frodo that these are words, even if he can't understand them.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin
Nov 21 2007, 10:10pm
Post #13 of 14
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Stopping in Woods on a Rainy Afternoon.
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It is less easy to find people in the woods and fields ... And if you are supposed to be on the road, there is some chance that you will be looked for on the road and not off it.
Makes sense to me. Yes, but: the Rider from last night already suspects (or knows) that they've left the road; he'll turn up here just a few minutes after they depart. And Pen has a point about Strider's warning of being caught by the Riders, alone in the wilderness. On the other hand, this isn't wilderness, and Strider himself will lead the hobbits far from the road (and they only get caught when he brings them back near the road, at Weathertop).
We have the tension between the deadly earnestness of Frodo’s flight with the Ring and the hobbit’s love of food and drink. As noted a couple paragraphs earlier, the refreshing night with the elves, and the cheerful sun, has left Pippin a bit carefree, even "running on the green turf and singing". But the contrast continues throughout the book: think of Merry and Pippin's indulgences amidst the ruins of Isengard.
Also, are you able to follow the route of the trio with the map provided in your book? Yes, approximately. As noted in our discussion of "Three Is Company", and our previous discussion of "A Shortcut to Mushrooms", there are some problems with the map of the Shire. Tolkien was aware of some of these: in one of the letters dernwyn quotes below, for instance, he observes that the woods the hobbits enter after crossing the Stock-brook isn't shown.
I’m sure some wise participant knows what part of England Tolkien is describing in these passages, care to enlighten the rest of us? FarFromHome has some ideas in the "A Conspiracy Is Unmasked" discussion of the Ferry, farther up the page.
I’m sure there are hikers here. Any experiences similar to that of the hobbits (rough land, rain, getting lost)? Yes to all counts. And it's not just the land but the thick undergrowth that causes them trouble. Good thing it's not poison ivy.
How about the terrain Tolkien describes, have you seen anything that resembles it? Sure. By the way, here is Curious's theory about these woods, and this was my further development thereof.
...a clear drink, pale golden in colour: it had the scent of a honey made of many flowers, and was wonderfully refreshing.
So, what do you think the Elves put in their bottles? As others have said, honey suggests mead.
Are the hobbits a bit tipsy perhaps? Comforted rather? Note that they'll arrive at Maggot's only a little while after a Rider has departed, so this tuneful delay saves them some trouble.
Do you like this little bit of song in the middle of the text? Did you recognize it in the movie and remember its original placement? I don't remember the song in the film. I do like it. Does this:
And many miles be still to go,
But under a tall tree I will lie,
...remind anyone else of Frost's "Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening"? The woods are lovely dark and deep / But I have promises to keep / And miles to go before I sleep?
A long-drawn wail came down the wind, like the cry of some evil and lonely creature. It rose and fell, and ended on a high piercing not.
Why do you think Frodo thought it was a call? How could he tell that it had words in it? I like the suggestions of a.s. and dernwyn, though all that matters to us is the creepy suggestion that this wailing note contains words, rather as the Riders themselves have been described in vague and shifting terms.
Does this passage give you chills? Absolutely. This is a very effective spooky moment.
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a.s.
Doriath
Nov 21 2007, 10:35pm
Post #14 of 14
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It's funny that sometimes what feels to a reader like "insight" is actually documented (or at least suggested) somewhere else in the book. I honestly don't know now if I just get the impression that Frodo can understand the speech of Mordor better here because of the influence of the Ring, or if that idea was planted in my head by reading Sam's thoughts later on.
Either way, I now feel it's a quite logical deduction.
a.s.
"an seileachan"
Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past.
~~~Landrum Bolling
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