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Humbert
Lindon

Nov 11 2007, 4:33pm
Post #1 of 35
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Ch 3. "Three is Company" - Open Discussion
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I want to thank everybody for participating in the discussion this week. There were some great things that really made me think about the text in a different way. I did my best to extract from the text what I considered discussion points - but I know there must be more! So how about it? What is there in "Three is Company" that you want to talk about? I open the floor to you, all of you. Take it away. Thanks again, folks. Maybe I'll do this again sometime - possibly! - Haggard Humbert
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SilentLion
Ossiriand
Nov 12 2007, 12:18am
Post #2 of 35
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Thanks so much for leading the discussion this week!
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You put together some nice, thought provoking questions on a chapter that is mainly focused on transition and character development. Now if Chrissy can just convince Mr. Roper not to throw Jack out of the apartment, things will turn out just fine for Frodo and Sam...
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin

Nov 12 2007, 12:32am
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What message did Khamûl want to leave for Frodo?
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Frodo overhears the Gaffer say to the Black Rider, "No, I can't give no message." What would the message be? Thanks, Humbert, for an excellent week of fascinating questions!
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009! Join us Nov. 5-11 for "Three Is Company".
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sevilodorf
Dor-Lomin

Nov 12 2007, 2:18am
Post #4 of 35
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Hard to visualize Black Riders
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Frodo overhears the Gaffer say to the Black Rider, "No, I can't give no message." What would the message be? Asking anyone to deliver the message... much easier to imagine them just looking at someone and that person babbling out everything they ever knew. Of course, hobbits are made of sterner stuff than the Nazgul are accustomed to. Sauron must really be desperate to send Nazgul out searching for anything as their "people skills" are decidely lacking.
Sev's home away from home: http://burpingtroll.com Finally made it to Rivendell!!!!!!!!!
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Penthe
Mithlond

Nov 12 2007, 4:42am
Post #5 of 35
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Hard to visualise because they are invisible.
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But on a less silly note, the Nazgul are not the guys you'd send to ask around inconspicuously, are they? Sometimes I think that Sauron's intelligence network was not so good. He could 'see' well enough to perceive general things by himself, and he had reports from servants, villainous allies and captured enemies. I think Sauron, along with Radagast, thought that the Shire itself was rather wilder and less inhabited than it really was. Saruman knew better, but clearly felt no need to share the information. The Nazgul were at their best away from hope - the Shire is full of hope and bonhomie and refuges that seem safe, even if they are not. In that way the Shire is actually a better refuge than Minas Tirith, where hope and happiness are in short supply, even if valour is more plentiful. But the message I'd expect from the Nazgul would be an ex-hobbit, perhaps charred and blackened. Saying 'Could Mr Baggins please call on us at his soonest convenience' does seem out of character. The crude attempt to buy Farmer Maggot indicates yet again how out of touch with the free peoples Sauron and his minions actually are.
I quite like cheese, you know.
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Beren IV
Mithlond

Nov 12 2007, 7:01am
Post #6 of 35
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Evil Overlord's Handbook, #15:
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I will make it clear that I do know the meaning of the word "mercy"; I simply choose not to show them any. This is where Tolkien drops the ball, I think - Sauron has been fighting the good guys for ages and ages. I can concieve that Sauron might not understand some of the details of the good guys' plans, but think about it this way: when Lúthien and Huan beat the stuffing out of Sauron way back in the First Age, she gave freedom, rather than claimed lordship, of the people in the tower Sauron had been using. I would think that Sauron would then have tried to consider what it is that makes her tick, because others who are friends of hers might think similarly. Yet, here he is, in the late Third Age, and the Naz are very good at scaring people, but the Hobbits aren't cowardly enough or greedy enough to give away Frodo.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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Curious
Gondolin

Nov 12 2007, 2:32pm
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to see whether Mr. Baggins would be returning to get his message. Alternatively, perhaps he was offering Frodo gold, as he later offered Maggot gold.
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weaver
Gondolin
Nov 12 2007, 5:05pm
Post #8 of 35
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I mostly lurked and learned...
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..and enjoyed the discussion very much! Your questions were great at shining a spotlight on all the nooks and crannies in this chapter. Thank you!
Weaver
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin

Nov 12 2007, 5:48pm
Post #9 of 35
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Who said anything about "invisible noses", Pip?
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The first encounter with a Black Rider is described as follows:
Round the corner came a black horse, no hobbit-pony but a full-sized horse; and on it sat a large man, who seemed to crouch in the saddle, wrapped in a great black cloak and hood, so that only his boots in the high stirrups showed below; his face was shadowed and invisible. When it reached the tree and was level with Frodo the horse stopped. The riding figure sat quite still with its head bowed, as if listening. From inside the hood came a noise as of someone sniffing to catch an elusive scent; the head turned from side to side of the road. A sudden unreasoning fear of discovery laid hold of Frodo, and he thought of his Ring. He hardly dared to breathe, and yet the desire to get it out of his pocket became so strong that he began slowly to move his hand. He felt that he had only to slip it on, and then he would be safe. The advice of Gandalf seemed absurd. Bilbo had used the Ring. ‘And I am still in the Shire,’ he thought, as his hand touched the chain on which it hung. At that moment the rider sat up, and shook the reins. The horse stepped forward, walking slowly at first, and then breaking into a quick trot. Frodo then tells Pippin and Sam what he saw, and his feeling that the Rider was looking for him. Sam chimes in with the information about the stranger the Gaffer met. Frodo won't explain his concerns to Pippin, who says:
‘All right, cousin Frodo! You can keep your secret for the present, if you want to be mysterious. In the meanwhile what are we to do? I should like a bite and a sup, but somehow I think we had better move on from here. Your talk of sniffing riders with invisible noses has unsettled me.’ [emphasis added] The description above doesn't say anything about invisibility. Is this an early hint to the reader of Pippin's involvement in the conspiracy? Also, does "Bilbo had used the Ring" mean that Frodo never has?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009! Join us Nov. 5-11 for "Three Is Company".
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FarFromHome
Doriath

Nov 12 2007, 7:11pm
Post #10 of 35
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mentioned the invisible nose himself: Pippin and Sam had remained flat in the grass, and had seen nothing; so Frodo described the rider and his strange behaviour. My guess is that Frodo mentioned that he couldn't see any face inside the Rider's hood, and that Pippin extrapolated the invisible nose from that! Also, does "Bilbo had used the Ring" mean that Frodo never has? I would guess it does. Frodo seems to have carried it around with him on its chain in his pocket, but perhaps he's never actually felt the need to escape from unwanted visitors until now...
...and the sails were drawn up, and the wind blew, and slowly the ship slipped away down the long grey firth; and the light of the glass of Galadriel that Frodo bore glimmered and was lost.
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin

Nov 12 2007, 8:52pm
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"The road goes on for ever ... but I can’t without a rest."
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A few more thoughts as we await Saelind's "A Shortcut to Mushroom" discussion, her second in three weeks, presumably to start this evening. Nothing substantive like Humbert's fine offering this week; just "filling up the corners": In the previous chapter, we are given the impression that Sam will get to "see Elves" (a phrase used twice by Sam and once by Gandalf) -- so where else could Frodo be going but Rivendell? Why the uncertainty here? Even before Gandalf has that unexplained foreboding of danger, he tells Frodo that the journey to Rivendell "should not prove too perilous, though the Road is less easy than it was, and it will grow worse as the year fails." What does he mean? Why does Tolkien make the summer of 1418 yield so plentiful a harvest? Who is the reader supposed to think the Gaffer is talking to, just before Frodo sets out? Why are we given the image of Sam as dwarf-like? Is his felt-bag hat ever mentioned again? Was anybody else surprised to see Frodo imagining himself "thin as a willow-wand"? Is there another problem with the Shire map? We're told that the lane to Stock and Woodhall, that the hobbits follow all day on Sep. 24, "climbed away from the main road in the Water-valley, and wound over the skirts of the Green Hills towards Woody-End, a wild corner of the Eastfarthing." But on the Shire map, that lane never intersects the main road; instead it runs from Tuckborough in the west to Stock in the east. And is it likely that Tuckborough, which looks like a sizeable town, is only serviced by this one road, would be "not much used, being hardly fit for carts"? The fox has "seldom heard of a hobbit sleeping out of doors under a tree", and feels that three hobbits doing so is "mighty queer". But Frodo, Pippin and Sam, though stiff in the morning, seem unfazed. Is it so unusual? Concerning the brook where the hobbits wash before breakfast on Sep. 23, we're told they go "across the stream where it dived under the road". A culvert? Just before Frodo recites Bilbo's poem, "The Road goes ever on and on", Pippin says, "The road goes on for ever ... but I can’t without a rest." Are unending roads a significant cultural motif for Hobbits?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009! Join us Nov. 12-18 for "A Shortcut to Mushrooms".
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Darkstone
Elvenhome

Nov 12 2007, 9:55pm
Post #12 of 35
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Sauron must really be desperate to send Nazgul out searching for anything as their "people skills" are decidely lacking. The servants of the Enemy definitely look foul and feel fouler, so Frodo's later statement seems rather non-sequiturial. Is there really any servant of the Enemy who either doesn't seem foul or feel foul?
****************************************** The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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SilentLion
Ossiriand
Nov 12 2007, 10:20pm
Post #13 of 35
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In Tolkien's world, the longer people are evil, the more they show it
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So the ones who "look fair but feel foul" tend to be those who have recently fallen into evil. Morgoth originally could put on a fair appearance until after the little incident with the Two Trees. Sauron could be a charmer until after the downfall of Numenor at the end of the Second Age. Saruman certainly could fool people into seeming wise and good until fairly late in the story, especially with his voice. Although we see Grima Wormtongue mostly as an object of scorn, he must have been fairly articulate to have wormed his way into Theoden's confidences so completely. Boromir certainly looked fair, though he never fell too very far. I imagine that during the period after received the rings but before they became Wraiths, the Nazgul would have given the appearance of being handsome, charming and successful. By the time of the LOTR, they are so far fallen that they can no longer exert influence except by fear.
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Beren IV
Mithlond

Nov 13 2007, 12:49am
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I don't think I would ever describe Boromir as actually evil, just not understanding what is really going on or that his judgement was clouded.
Once a paleontologist, now a botanist, will be a paleobotanist
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a.s.
Doriath

Nov 13 2007, 1:21am
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Summer in England, 1914 Alice Meynell On London fell a clearer light; Caressing pencils of the sun Defined the distances, the white Houses transfigured one by one, The "long, unlovely street" impearled. O what a sky has walked the world! Most happy year! And out of town The hay was prosperous, and the wheat; The silken harvest climbed the down; Moon after moon was heavenly sweet, Stroking the bread within the sheaves, Looking twixt apples and their leaves. And while this rose made round her cup, The armies died convulsed; and when This chaste young silver sun went up Softly, a thousand shattered men, One wet corruption, heaped the plain, After a league-long throb of pain. Why does Tolkien make the summer of 1418 yield so plentiful a harvest? I don't know how accurate it actually was (I mean, I haven't looked up an climate information) but the summer of 1914 was (perhaps romantically or sentimentally) remembered as a beautiful summer with wonderful crops, etc. The "Last Golden Summer of England", or something like that. I believe Tolkien is just making a poignant moment for Frodo and the reader, as he gets ready to say goodbye to all that. a.s.
"an seileachan" Forgiveness means giving up all hope of a better past. ~~~Landrum Bolling
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SilentLion
Ossiriand
Nov 13 2007, 1:55am
Post #16 of 35
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Boromir probably doesn't belong in the grouping with the others in the "look fair, feel foul" category. Though he may have hid his growing desire for the ring, I don't think he consciously used his appearance or powers of persuation to deceive the others.
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator

Nov 13 2007, 3:10am
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In the previous chapter, we are given the impression that Sam will get to "see Elves" (a phrase used twice by Sam and once by Gandalf) -- so where else could Frodo be going but Rivendell? Why the uncertainty here? I think his only other choice is to go to Crickhollow, and there just wait - and hope Gandalf shows up. He really has no other place to go, save these two.
Even before Gandalf has that unexplained foreboding of danger, he tells Frodo that the journey to Rivendell "should not prove too perilous, though the Road is less easy than it was, and it will grow worse as the year fails." What does he mean? The Shadow is encroaching on their part of Middle-earth. More trolls, more Men who have become evil, more "unseen things": I would assume that Gandalf has been in contact with the Dúnedain, who have reported more incidences of waylaying, and an increase in things they must be on guard against.
Who is the reader supposed to think the Gaffer is talking to, just before Frodo sets out? Some nosy Hobbit! Maybe in the hire of the S.-B.'s, or come to complain about them?
Why are we given the image of Sam as dwarf-like? Is his felt-bag hat ever mentioned again? The shapeless hat and large backpack give one the impression, in the half-light, of a rotund hooded Dwarf. That felt-bag is never mentioned again, is it! And the only time I've ever seen it depicted, is on my Pauline Baynes map of Middle-earth.
Is there another problem with the Shire map? We're told that the lane to Stock and Woodhall, that the hobbits follow all day on Sep. 24, "climbed away from the main road in the Water-valley, and wound over the skirts of the Green Hills towards Woody-End, a wild corner of the Eastfarthing." But on the Shire map, that lane never intersects the main road; instead it runs from Tuckborough in the west to Stock in the east. And is it likely that Tuckborough, which looks like a sizeable town, is only serviced by this one road, would be "not much used, being hardly fit for carts"? Yep, that's another map problem! There needs to be a tie-in road somewhere, or rather, several roads. A strange oversight on Tolkien's part.
The fox has "seldom heard of a hobbit sleeping out of doors under a tree", and feels that three hobbits doing so is "mighty queer". But Frodo, Pippin and Sam, though stiff in the morning, seem unfazed. Is it so unusual? For Frodo and friends, no, it's not unusual. But few other Hobbits would do something like this, and as it seems that when the adventurous ones go off on their adventures they tend to go alone, then three together would be odd.
Concerning the brook where the hobbits wash before breakfast on Sep. 23, we're told they go "across the stream where it dived under the road". A culvert? I'd assume so: if it's narrow enough at that point, then a bridge would be unnecessary, and a stone-lined culvert would suffice.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I desired dragons with a profound desire" "It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?" -Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
/ Moderator

Nov 13 2007, 3:14am
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But you know I'll never be able to think of "Three is Company" now, without humming a certain theme song... !
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I desired dragons with a profound desire" "It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?" -Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Finding Frodo
Dor-Lomin

Nov 13 2007, 3:52am
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Is his felt-bag hat ever mentioned again? The last time we discussed this chapter, I posted a theory that Tolkien had a friend or acquaintance with a hat like that, similar to the way Treebeard's "Hoom hom" is a gentle parody of noises C.S. Lewis was said to have a habit of making. Arevanye confirmed it with a link to a hilarious story on her blog. Scroll down to the entry titled "Jack's hat." (Dec. 11, 2004)
Where's Frodo?
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N.E. Brigand
Gondolin

Nov 13 2007, 4:12am
Post #21 of 35
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This is before Frodo buys Crickhollow.
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In this previous chapter, there are three references to the idea of Frodo taking Sam to "see Elves". But a few weeks later, Frodo asks Gandalf what destination he should make for. Only after Gandalf suggests Rivendell does Frodo formulate the plan to purchase Crickhollow, and use that as a departure point. But where else but Rivendell might Frodo and Sam have gone to "see Elves", and also get the Ring safely out of the Shire and in position for whatever its next journey will be?
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> We're discussing The Lord of the Rings in the Reading Room, Oct. 15, 2007 - Mar. 22, 2009! Join us Nov. 12-18 for "A Shortcut to Mushrooms".
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elostirion74
Nargothrond
Nov 13 2007, 11:47am
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I'd just like to thank you for your contribution this week. You certainly have an eye for finding interesting and varied questions and I liked the way you structured your discussion thematically. I hope you'll be leading a discussion again at a later time:)
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Curious
Gondolin

Nov 13 2007, 12:13pm
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Then take a ship to Gondor! That would save a great deal of time, no? And Sauron does not control the seas. Of course, there are those pesky Corsairs. Okay, how about the straight road to Lothlorien? At the time Frodo talks with Gandalf, Saruman's betrayal is still unknown, so why not go to Lothlorien by way of the Gap of Rohan?
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dernwyn
Forum Admin
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Nov 13 2007, 1:41pm
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not after he's met Gildor. Good question! As Curious notes, he could go to Gondor, and have a mad Steward relieve him of his burden there; or head to Lórien, enjoying the hospitality of Saruman along the way. His list of refuges grows thin, does it not? Maybe he could find a deep, dark hole somewhere in the Misty Mountains...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "I desired dragons with a profound desire" "It struck me last night that you might write a fearfully good romantic drama, with as much of the 'supernatural' as you cared to introduce. Have you ever thought of it?" -Geoffrey B. Smith, letter to JRR Tolkien, 1915
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Darkstone
Elvenhome

Nov 13 2007, 2:18pm
Post #25 of 35
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Frodo doesn't know those people, so his statement is still a non sequitur.
****************************************** The audacious proposal stirred his heart. And the stirring became a song, and it mingled with the songs of Gil-galad and Celebrian, and with those of Feanor and Fingon. The song-weaving created a larger song, and then another, until suddenly it was as if a long forgotten memory woke and for one breathtaking moment the Music of the Ainur revealed itself in all glory. He opened his lips to sing and share this song. Then he realized that the others would not understand. Not even Mithrandir given his current state of mind. So he smiled and simply said "A diversion.”
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